UPS Advice

B

boc61

New member
Hi,

Been away from Trainz for awhile but with the 2019 edition looming my interest has been rekindled. I have a new pc coming next week from Maingear and need a new UPS for it. I've been looking at the CyberPower CP1000 AVRLCD and the APC UPS 850VA. Anybody have any experience with either of these, or recommendations beyond them? Also, what's up with Sine Wave vs Simulated Sine Wave? From what I've seen so far, opinions seem split as to whether there is any major difference between the two.

Thank You.
 
Last edited:
boc61 said:
Hi,

Been away from Trainz for awhile but with the 2019 edition looming my interest has been rekindled. I have a new pc coming next week from Maingear and need a new UPS for it. I've been looking at the CyberPower CP1000 AVRLCD and the APC UPS 850VA. Anybody have any experience with either of these, or recommendations beyond them? Also, what's up with Sine Wave vs Simulated Sine Wave? From what I've seen so far, opinions seem split as to whether there is any major difference between the two.

Thank You.
Click to expand...


I have not played in this part of Electrical Architecture Theory and performance,

https://www.google.com/search?q=Sin...ne+Wave?&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

I did a search on Google with your "Sine Wave vs Simulated Sine Wave?" and the link has several comments on this Simulated Sine

But this one

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/284291-28-what-difference-normal-pure-sine-wave-inverter

I think you might want to read about what damage a Simulated Sine wave did to some components.......

Also add, that one thing folks are not aware, that your Electricity supplier, does not keep your Voltage at 110 Volts all the time, Voltage in your house can vary due to Loads on the Lines supplying you and your neighbors, I've found Voltages from 90 Volts to 117 Volts in my house by using a simple Volt Meter, so it is important to have a good surge Protector for Electronic items, of which subtle Voltage changes over time can induce Cumulative degrading effects on said Circuits over time........Think of it as to what small amounts of wind whipped Sand can do to the paint on your Vehicles etc over time, but in this case Electrical Circuits are getting micro zapped over time, if that makes sense......

Finally, as far as UPS needs, always make sure that you have more Power than what you'd need if all your PC Components are running at the same time, most likely not, but many times Computer makers will give just enough Power for the components, and nothing more, so you might be close to capacity on your needs......

http://www.coolermaster.com/power-supply-calculator/

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-3408292/power-supply-gaming.html

The tool link above should give you the size appropriate to you Gaming Rig's need.

And make sure you count Overclocking needs too.....That could make a difference in top end needs.......

I hope this info helps you out......And others in the Forum will probably comment there theories on your requisite needs.
 
Hi Boc,

I'm not familiar with the new technology, but I've always had great luck with the APC models which I've used for decades. ** Yes decades now! Wow!
 
blueodessey said:
I have not played in this part of Electrical Architecture Theory and performance,

https://www.google.com/search?q=Sin...ne+Wave?&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

I did a search on Google with your "Sine Wave vs Simulated Sine Wave?" and the link has several comments on this Simulated Sine

But this one

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/284291-28-what-difference-normal-pure-sine-wave-inverter

I think you might want to read about what damage a Simulated Sine wave did to some components.......

Also add, that one thing folks are not aware, that your Electricity supplier, does not keep your Voltage at 110 Volts all the time, Voltage in your house can vary due to Loads on the Lines supplying you and your neighbors, I've found Voltages from 90 Volts to 117 Volts in my house by using a simple Volt Meter, so it is important to have a good surge Protector for Electronic items, of which subtle Voltage changes over time can induce Cumulative degrading effects on said Circuits over time........Think of it as to what small amounts of wind whipped Sand can do to the paint on your Vehicles etc over time, but in this case Electrical Circuits are getting micro zapped over time, if that makes sense......

Finally, as far as UPS needs, always make sure that you have more Power than what you'd need if all your PC Components are running at the same time, most likely not, but many times Computer makers will give just enough Power for the components, and nothing more, so you might be close to capacity on your needs......

http://www.coolermaster.com/power-supply-calculator/

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-3408292/power-supply-gaming.html

The tool link above should give you the size appropriate to you Gaming Rig's need.

And make sure you count Overclocking needs too.....That could make a difference in top end needs.......

I hope this info helps you out......And others in the Forum will probably comment there theories on your requisite needs.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links! I studied this stuff nearly 40 years ago in engineering school. The Simulated Sine wave is similar to the pulse-control DCC train controllers, which cause older locomotives to overheat. Remember the old MRC train controllers? The squared wave is hard on components because it's a pulse and not a pure cycling wave. :)

With this extra work being done, the components heat up which is what killed the guy's LCD display due to the components not being able to handle the squared-wave.

The whole AC voltage thing is quite different too than even DC. With AC we have what is called RMS, or Root-Mean-Square, Peak to Peak, Power Factor, etc. to contend with.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/rms-voltage-calculator/

Things can get really messy when we add in pulses that don't quite fit the sine wave shape.
 
boc61 said:
Also, what's up with Sine Wave vs Simulated Sine Wave?
Click to expand...

'Simulated' is really poor terminology. A UPS is a DC to AC converter, so the shape of the AC is going to be 'simulated' whatever the technology. The proper term is 'approximate' or 'modified', and obviously there is a range involved, from a very good approximation to a poor one. One thing to consider is that the load on the UPS will often force the UPS closer to a pure sine wave than the specs indicate, assuming that the regulation can cope with the load. Also, PC power supplies can cope with very poor quality power. So if all you are powering from the UPS is the CPU, and then only for a short period while you shut down, the difference between a pure sign wave and a typical, moderately-priced approximate sine wave UPS will be slight. But other equipment can be more sensitive. Solid-state display, printer and scanner might object to a modified sine wave, especially when it is under low load, and could possibly be damaged.

The best solution is a DC-only UPS that drives the pc supply direct from batteries - no DC to AC conversion required. Then a small pure sine wave UPS to drive the display long enough to shut down.
 
JCitron said:
Hi Boc,

I'm not familiar with the new technology, but I've always had great luck with the APC models which I've used for decades. ** Yes decades now! Wow!
Click to expand...

Except the last one I brought didn't cut in when I tested it with my computer. When contacted technical support said we know about that, that model does not support some green motherboards. This was a Backup model. I have a number of APC UPSes including two or three older Backup units and they worked fine. I standardised on APC at work so a hundred or so of them so yes I was surprised. I suspect having got the Brand name and reputation they cut costs on the components.

The Cyberpower works fine.

Just of out curiosity test your APCes and see if they really do cut in on a power outage.

Cheerio John
 
Thanks for the replies and links, especially the wattage calculator. Electrical matters have always been fuzzy for me, my Dad worked for Con Edison in New York City for 30 years, I knew I should have paid closer attention whenever he tried to teach me something.

I'm also going to reach out to the pc builder as well and get his opinion.
 
johnwhelan said:
Except the last one I brought didn't cut in when I tested it with my computer. When contacted technical support said we know about that, that model does not support some green motherboards. This was a Backup model. I have a number of APC UPSes including two or three older Backup units and they worked fine. I standardised on APC at work so a hundred or so of them so yes I was surprised. I suspect having got the Brand name and reputation they cut costs on the components.

The Cyberpower works fine.

Just of out curiosity test your APCes and see if they really do cut in on a power outage.

Cheerio John
Click to expand...

That unfortunately sounds like what they did, sadly. The old BackUPS were terrific at one time and I too also settled for them not only for myself but for the workplace as well.

I've had the opportunity to test my UPS a couple of times this year without running a test. We had two storm-related 30-plus hour outages which required the UPS to kick in until I could shut things down. There was no buzzing from the power supplies and the only buzzing was the UPS as the inverter kicked into supply power for the computer and monitors. This 2kVA unit has about 30 minutes of run-time on it, which is plenty for me to power things down safely. These are much older units, probably aren't affected by this issue.

I've had mixed luck with Cyberpower, with one unit not working at all for some reason unknown and I ended up replacing it with an APC equivalent.

Tripp-Lite units vary as well, though, the last one I ordered was terrific. While at my old company, now closed due to loss of business in 2009, I had to get a smallish Tripp-Lite unit because the equivalent APC unit was not available. This was to support our AT&T/Avaya Definity phone switch, which would magically go out every morning at a specific time. My boss insisted this was another problem, and after spending about $350 for a new UPS, the problem went away. He mumbled about it, but never admitted I was right on that.
 
From reading reviews on Amazon, New Egg, etc it seems that most people's experiences are the same. mainly positive with some having negative reviews in about the same proportion. I always take customer reviews with a grain of salt or two but it seems the bad experiences could be chalked up to just a bad roll of the dice. I'll see what the builder has to say.
 
I have a CyberPower 1500AVR. I bought it four years ago. The internal battery lasted for 3.5 years before I replaced it (which took about 5 minutes). One point to consider: when you buy a UPS be sure to exercise it at least once a month. I simply pull the plug from the wall and wait until I'm down to around 15% power left, then plug it back in. The small app you can install which monitors the UPS and provides a small desktop gadget is a good idea even though it is a background process. Consider buying a UPS that is at least 1.5 times more watrtage than you need--2 times would be better if you have your auxiliary stuff plugged into it as well. This means your switches/router/monitor and external drives/USB hubs. I leave my laser printers off the UPS because they draw too much current as well as not being necessary during battery operation.

Bill
 
Last edited:
JCitron said:
Thanks for the links! I studied this stuff nearly 40 years ago in engineering school. The Simulated Sine wave is similar to the pulse-control DCC train controllers, which cause older locomotives to overheat. Remember the old MRC train controllers? The squared wave is hard on components because it's a pulse and not a pure cycling wave. :)

With this extra work being done, the components heat up which is what killed the guy's LCD display due to the components not being able to handle the squared-wave.

The whole AC voltage thing is quite different too than even DC. With AC we have what is called RMS, or Root-Mean-Square, Peak to Peak, Power Factor, etc. to contend with.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/rms-voltage-calculator/

Things can get really messy when we add in pulses that don't quite fit the sine wave shape.
Click to expand...

So right John......We live in an era of Just in Time Inventory, and quick fixes etc, there are times, the way I see it, that tried and proven are still the way to go......I recall once back in the 80's I took my 386 SX (32 bit named, but actually only functional 16 bit),,,,,,,if you can believe that........And it had a problem with hardware, and I noticed the technician, would just change out cards till the thing worked, and I asked him about it, as to why he didn't probe test with leads and meters etc to see what parts where not working etc!!!!!

He says, OHHH, we don't do that anymore, we just switch out known good working cards into your computer till it works.......I was lambasted by his answer........You have to me kidding me, I could do this too.........

And now in this day we have simulated things, pretty soon, it will b e invisible items, but they still work,,,,,I really shudder to think about the Concept.

Suppose I'm getting old in the mind.........LOL
 
blueodessey said:
So right John......We live in an era of Just in Time Inventory, and quick fixes etc, there are times, the way I see it, that tried and proven are still the way to go......I recall once back in the 80's I took my 386 SX (32 bit named, but actually only functional 16 bit),,,,,,,if you can believe that........And it had a problem with hardware, and I noticed the technician, would just change out cards till the thing worked, and I asked him about it, as to why he didn't probe test with leads and meters etc to see what parts where not working etc!!!!!

He says, OHHH, we don't do that anymore, we just switch out known good working cards into your computer till it works.......I was lambasted by his answer........You have to me kidding me, I could do this too.........

And now in this day we have simulated things, pretty soon, it will b e invisible items, but they still work,,,,,I really shudder to think about the Concept.

Suppose I'm getting old in the mind.........LOL
Click to expand...

Well said, Blue. I used to work as a hardware technician and actually used to fix those boards until the companies stopped repairing and manufacturing them. The other thing that drove me was is due the components got too small too even with a microscope. When the tech jobs disappeared, I went on to MIS and support where I remained until I stopped working in 2012. Of all the work I did since 1979, I miss the hardware repair part. I found it very fascinating digging into the circuits to find out what the actual problem was that caused them to stop working whether the board was a memory controller, remember those, an I/O card, or even a graphics card.

This experience has paid off even today because I can still pinpoint a problem before chunking a lot of cash down on something I don't need.

Well virtual computing does exist, and we're living it today with cloud based servers hosted in other parts of the world. It's quite interesting to see us go full circle from mainframes in a large computer room to local computers on a local network all the way back to shared resources on a mainframe located somewhere in a computer room. Nothing has changed except for the network and computer speed, and the name of the services.
 
HiBaller said:
I have a CyberPower 1500AVR. I bought it four years ago. The internal battery lasted for 3.5 years before I replaced it (which took about 5 minutes). One point to consider: when you buy a UPS be sure to exercise it at least once a month. I simply pull the plug from the wall and wait until I'm down to around 15% power left, then plug it back in. The small app you can install which monitors the UPS and provides a small desktop gadget is a good idea even though it is a background process. Consider buying a UPS that is at least 1.5 times more watrtage than you need--2 times would be better if you have your auxiliary stuff plugged into it as well. This means your switches/router/monitor and external drives/USB hubs. I leave my laser printers off the UPS because they draw too much current as well as not being necessary during battery operation.

Bill
Click to expand...

I don't need to run down my UPS regularly. Our power company manages to take of that on a regular basis!

It's recommended not to plug in laser printers into a UPS due to their high current draw, which can damage the circuits in the UPS. Speaking of high current draw...

Sometime ago, I had a Varityper Epics 20/20 typesetting system that was plugged into a line conditioner because it was recommended not to use a UPS. One day the power company was out there fixing something on the pole that caused the line conditioner to blow its self up and shoot its line fuse across the room! The spike also blew up my neighbor's TV, microwave, and stereo all in one shot.

We put in an insurance claim, which dragged on for months to cover the $1800 in damage to the terminal and CPU. The 6830 output device was off at the time so that was saved. After many, many months, we finally get a letter from the insurance company denying our claim due to the damage being caused by electricity that was generated by "carbon arc or other means", according to the 1908 clause they went by! We managed to dig through some savings and got the equipment repaired, but it never ran well afterwards and was forever glitchy.

Carbon-arc generators? Really!
 
Both laster printers (1 color and 1 B&W) are on the LAN, but in another room because of the heat they generate. I have a line conditioner, but no UPS for them. Everyone in the hosue can access them through a print server, wireless or hard-wired.

Carbon arc? Holy cow, that's old tech.

Bill
 
HiBaller said:
Both laster printers (1 color and 1 B&W) are on the LAN, but in another room because of the heat they generate. I have a line conditioner, but no UPS for them. Everyone in the hosue can access them through a print server, wireless or hard-wired.

Carbon arc? Holy cow, that's old tech.

Bill
Click to expand...

I do the same with my printers, which are located down in the cool basement. This is also a good excuse to get up and walk by the refrigerator on the way down to get my documents. :)

Yeah, a bit old ain't it. That's an insurance company for ya! I wonder what big thick book the adjusters and underwriters looked through to come to this decision. This sounds like something out of a movie.
 
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