"Cheese slice"r terrain scuplting.

FootplatePhil

Trainz Tragic since 2002
Just curious. Does any one (else) still use the "cheese slicer" terrain building technique for route building? (using topographic maps and sight visits, as opposed to using DEM data based topographical data).

Phil (Dinasauarious Footplatious).
 
My guess is that with "cheese slicer" you mean the default Surveyor tools to create the terrain.
If so:
That is the only thing I use, with the exception of my two "Multi Layer" routes; for those I used Blender to create the (main) "terrain" assets.

And yes... I do think the default tools could use a serious update.
 
Yes, it is the technique I use (although the term "Cheese Slicer" is new to me, it does seem appropriate).

I do have TrainzDEM but have so far failed to master it - it is simply a case of far too long a time between "cheese slicing" episodes (i.e. new route building) that I simply forget how to use it. Perhaps on my next route building adventure.
 
Yes, I prefer to use the default Surveyor tools and model layouts myself, but with the assistance of Google Earth, which provides me with general overview and the height above sea level.

I don't use TransDEM, however, I have used Basemapz initially as an underlay, to determine a few key roads or an iconic building, but then I remove that layer to free up memory.

I think the Surveyor tools could have some 'fine-tuning' adjustments to assist in placing an asset in a precise position. Some tools such as 'copy and paste' could be improved with smaller degrees than 90.

Cheers,
Roy
 
In the olden days of Trainz, before I got TransDEM, I built all my routes this way. It can work but I have found it actually takes a lot of extra work doing so so now I use the old "cheese-slicer" tools from time to time mostly to fix merge points where the two routes don't quite line up like they should. Done judiciously with the built-in tools, it can be difficult to tell which is which.

A good compromise are the displacement maps, however, These can create a nice random terrain, which can be smoothed out and blended using the built-in tools, but save all the work creating the hills and valleys. Over the years, I've gotten quite adept at dragging the fill area over multiple baseboards to create a large area ready for track laying and texturing, and asset placement. One of the challenges that comes out of a terrain like this is determining the best route for the rails especially when the terrain is quite steep.
 
I use the cheese slicer method a lot as well as displacement images .Call me old fashioned but transdem is out of my league.
 
Could someone post an photo of this "Cheese Slicing" technique ... I just can't picture it

There used to be a tutorial thread which outlined the method, but it may have disappeared in the great forum crash of 2006.

Very briefly, I place a grid over a topographic map, with the grid square size corresponding to that of a Trainz baseboard (720m). I then mark out on a new baseboard the contour lines, and waterways, and railway track using splines (I use track splines). I set the spline point heights the those derived from the map, and use the "Smooth Spline Height" tool to raise the ground along the splines. I then adjust the actual rail corridor to approximate the data in the "Curves and Gradients" data for the line I am modelling.
Once the basic height info has been set up on the baseboard I use a series of parallel splines to fill in and shape the ground between the "contour splines". (This is where the term "Cheese Slicer comes in, as its a little like sculpting cheese). Once the entire baseboard has been built up to height I remove the "contour" splines, and start painting on the ground textures.

I will be working on my route today, and will try and post a screenshot to illustrate the technique.

Phil
 
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Phil

From your description, the splines follow contours of constant height. After adjusting their heights and smoothing, doesn’t the terrain then end up with a lot of “steps” in it? How do you avoid that, or smooth out the steps afterwards? The topology tools don’t really have anything that converts a series of steps into an average gradient, so it would be interesting to know how you do it.

D.
 
I use a different "cheese cutter" approach.


  • Using Google Earth, Google Maps, track diagrams and other sources, I lay out the track on flat baseboards for the entire route
  • Using height data from Google Earth, I set the track height in Surveyor every 100 metres along the track and then use the smooth tool to set the landform height along the track

Then the real work begins


  1. Starting with the line tool on Google Earth, I mark out a line perpendicular to the track at the start of the route.
  2. In Surveyor I add a track spline from the same point perpendicular to the track
  3. I add spline points every 100m along the perpendicular track section
  4. In Google Earth every 100 metres (less for steeper sections) I note the height of the land.
  5. In Surveyor I transfer the measured height to the height of the corresponding spline point on the perpendicular track (adjusting spline length where needed for steeper sections)
  6. Repeat steps 4 & 5 for the entire length of the perpendicular track spline
  7. I use the track smooth tool to raise the land along the perpendicular track spline between the spline points
  8. Repeat steps 2 to 7 for the corresponding perpendicular track spline on the other side of the main line
  9. Repeat steps 1 to 8 for the entire length of the line

The gaps between the perpendicular "cheese slices" are smoothed out by the use of track splines laid diagonally across the gaps and the smooth track tool. Any "terrace steps" remaining are given further smoothing attention.

For a recent route I released to the DLS (70kms long) this process took months but I did find that it was a very "therapeutic" release from a stressful day job.
 
Here is a screenshot of WIP on my route. Hopefully gives a better idea of the approach. I developed the technique I use in Trainz 1.3, before Google Earth existed, and had not thought to refine the technique in the way pware outlines. However, I do find Google Earth and Street View invaluable for completing the scenery.

Cheese-cutting-technique-for-route-building.jpg
 
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For a recent route I released to the DLS (70kms long) this process took months but I did find that it was a very "therapeutic" release from a stressful day job.
I can only suggest to try the TransDEM tutorials again. As many others will have told you, it's not rocket science. Letting TransDEM do the job, the creation will only take minutes, not months.
 
I do have TransDEM. I got it after my last creation using the "cheese slicer" approach when I vowed "never again". I did try it on a short test route and got it to work. Since then, I have not created any further new routes but when I do, I will take your advice and try the "rocket science" instead of the "cheese science' approach.
 
I can only suggest to try the TransDEM tutorials again. As many others will have told you, it's not rocket science. Letting TransDEM do the job, the creation will only take minutes, not months.

A couple of thoughts on this..

1. No doubt it takes longer to slice cheese. However, setting up the underlying topography is only a proportion of the time it takes to build a route (in my experience scenery takes far longer).

2. What are we aiming for when we build a route? Is it a model, or a simulation? There are advantages to the "cheese slicer" approach in terms of being able to for-shorten distances, the result I believe can be a more realistic looking model. It is possible using for-shortening to model mountains that are visible in the real world, but which cannot be modeled to scale using rocket science on a practical number of base boards.

3. "Cheese slicing" is like painting a model. A DEM based model is like a photo.

I don't mean to knock DEM data modelling, which results in great models (and thanks GeoPhil for the contribution you have made in this area).. just putting this thought out there !

Phil
 
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Building a large route that way would be totally ridiculously IMPOSSIBLE, I tried that method years ago

Even building a 1 baseboard route would take days or weeks
 
Building a large route that way would be totally ridiculously IMPOSSIBLE

Not impossible, just a very very long time. About 12 years ago I did a ~300 km route using the cheese slicer method and it took almost a year just to do the terrain. My last such attempt, 75 km, took several months for the terrain building after which I decided no more cheese.
 
A variation of spline-formed terrain method. I use it to create gradual transitions between different "base" heights instead of having to manually topo everything from 0m. This is a more unique case involving right-angles, more often I just create a flat slope across adjacent tiles.

wQC3Ya.jpg






 
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