Not such a newbie with a peeve

On reading the original post I nodded my head in agreement, then was shocked at the hard hitting replies, and wondered where I was. Not impressed. He had very valid points and clearly some glossed over what he said, and focused on only parts and missed the general message. Like others I can see both sides and am also fed up downloading routes only to then find they are rubbish. So far 75% are rubbish in my experience and 25% are good to excellent. The trouble is as stated by others often these things have little description, or misleading descriptions and you really don't know if you are wasting download and your monthly limit (it ain't free), until you install and look. I've seen routes that are a flat board, insane tracks crossing over others, going no where and that was it! Really peeved me as it said "Lithgow" and I live nearby.

Yes, it takes months, or years to create any layout, the longer it takes, probably the better it is. As a newbie here, of the older generation, I think routes at least (impractical with other content) should have some vetting system or the DLS will be killed with junk, some of which may have worked once but with TANE doesn't work. I'd say 10 - 15% of content downloaded doesn't work (if you have the latest version). Unfortunately a BIG drawback of TANE (?) or the New Era, is you can only download from within the game. No way that I can see to select items that are this generation of Trainz, unlike the website where you can select which version/s to select from.

It's a complicated issue, and I am currently (for over 2 months) working on my own map of the Zig-Zag near Lithgow. So I know what's involved, the learning curve and the grade of 1 in 42.... Interlocking towers, what the feck are they!? Yep, seen them, played with it, avoid them cause there's no explanation in the above mentioned manual. Like I said, no easy answer, technology evolves too fast frankly, but it would be nice to keep it civil. All opinions are valid, even if wrong. But then who's to say they are wrong anyway, or right for that matter. :wave:

Alikiwi said:

fed up downloading routes only to then find they are rubbish. So far 75% are rubbish

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If the route, or asset, worked in earlier versions of Trainz, but no longer works in T:ANE, that doesn't make it "rubbish" ... It is only because T:ANE "trashed it", so that it no longer works in T:ANE, and is not the original creators fault, as he could not foresee that T:ANE would come along years later and trash his asset(s)

Alikiwi said:

Unfortunately a BIG drawback of TANE (?) or the New Era, is you can only download from within the game. No way that I can see to select items that are this generation of Trainz, unlike the website where you can select which version/s to select from.

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??? Have you not noticed "Manage Content" on the launcher??
By adding columns to content manager and for you specifically the "build Version" column, you can sort on Build Version, Upload Date, Date Installed, KUID, File size etc. Content Manager is the main tool I use for downloading, rarely use FTP on the web DLS and never in game.
cheers
Graeme

Alikiwi said:

...

It's a complicated issue, and I am currently (for over 2 months) working on my own map of the Zig-Zag near Lithgow. .... Like I said, no easy answer, technology evolves too fast frankly, but it would be nice to keep it civil. All opinions are valid, even if wrong. But then who's to say they are wrong anyway, or right for that matter. :wave:

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Those faulty routes were probably working routes at the time but Trainz has evolved, changed the route structure and introduced tougher validation. It is not the fault of the original author and accusing them of poor quality control is going to evoke a reaction. There are civil ways of making a complaint. For example, it would have been better to ask for advice on fixing routes.

The Content Repair Group, operating as agents of N3V, is repairing what it can but there are few members and the task is simply enormous. Repairing routes is almost impossible because it requires the loading of the route in each version of Trainz between then and now as well as downloading all the dependencies for the route in each version. There are 100's of broken routes so the CRG basically ignores them in favour of simpler targets.

cascaderailroad said:

If the route, or asset, worked in earlier versions of Trainz, but no longer works in T:ANE, that doesn't make it "rubbish" ... It is only because T:ANE "trashed it", so that it no longer works in T:ANE, and is not the original creators fault, as he could not foresee that T:ANE would come along years later and trash his asset(s)

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While I understand your point, I don't agree with the "trashed it" analogy. It is a bit like blaming Ford for "trashing" the horse and buggy industry (an extreme example but to the point) or (more current) Apple for dropping support for 32 bit apps on their new phones. We have to move on. In a previous post you mentioned a possible time when the current DLS will become incompatible with a future version of Trainz - this will eventually happen and perhaps we are seeing the first steps in this process.

I agree that most creators, but regrettably not all, built their assets to the standards that existed at the time but those standards have now changed. Changing standards, and keeping up with the changes, is a constant problem with technology.

I am looking forward to the "nice, warm, fuzzy, cozy, side" of Cascaderailroad

cascaderailroad said:

If the route, or asset, worked in earlier versions of Trainz, but no longer works in T:ANE, that doesn't make it "rubbish" ... It is only because T:ANE "trashed it", so that it no longer works in T:ANE, and is not the original creators fault, as he could not foresee that T:ANE would come along years later and trash his asset(s)

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In some ways Allkiwi does have a point, there ARE far too many routes on the DLS that are ( i think ) adolescent dabblings which are just plain silly, some describe how bad they are ' Take your train and crash it into the mountain" but a lot of these are there because IOS users are treating the DLS as a cloud storage center. Experience will generally tell you which ones to avoid.

I think the biggest improvement that could be made to the dls is that routes in particular should not be hosted unless the maker has provided an adequate explanation as to what it actually is , in the original language of the maker and in English ( almost anyone can get a google translate going nowadays) this would save a huge amount of users time. It should be possible during submission of the asset to the DLS to make them fill in a generic form to use : the country, whether prototypical or freelance , whether its a work in progress ,the build number and other details that can be used on the DLS.
finally, the absence of a screenshot is so annoying , there is one huge route that is a great route, but all of its thousands of assets have no screenshots, i know making them is a pain but they really are so useful. please folks provide them if you can ........

That sounds like an interesting idea re routes dangavel - the only thing I would say though is that less experienced users may have problems with things like build number which could be one of two numbers.

Shane

Here is a summary of the points raised in another thread on what to look for before you download a route.

Thumbnail:

• is a thumbnail present? One of those "This is NOT a thumbnail" thumbnails does not count as a "thumbnail".
• is the thumbnail is a screenshot that does not show the grid lines?
• does the thumbnail contain a text label (this shows that the creator cares enough to at least add a title)?

Route Description:

• is there a full description of the route?
• does the description give some indication of the contents such as "all assets are on the DLS", "speed trees are/are not used", etc
• If 3rd party assets are present, does the description tell you where to find them?

Other Information/Support:

• Does the creator care enough to post an announcement message in the Freeware forum?
• Are screenshots available, e.g. in the Trainz Gallery, screenshots forum or in the Freeware Forum?
• Does the creator respond to questions about his/her route?

There is no point score for any of these checklist items and no minimum number to "achieve" before you can decide what is worthwhile downloading and what is not.

shaneturner12 said:

That sounds like an interesting idea re routes dangavel - the only thing I would say though is that less experienced users may have problems with things like build number which could be one of two numbers.

Shane

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might it be worth putting up in the suggestions thread ?

I'd say so, yes.

Shane

On the flip side, if someone wants to buy Trainz and spend their hard earned on it, why is it up to them to do the legwork to get something running up to any sort of standard?

N3V need to work on some sort of quality control for the DLS. A WIP DLS, or a Desktop only DLS, or a N3V tick of approval on great, completed, high quality assets is something they need to explore IMO. I haven't scrolled through the DLS for years: simply too much crap on it. I download everything Davesnow, most of our Aussie guys and Paulzmay (and a few others) put out, but unless I see something specific I need by sheer luck, I steer clear.

pware said:

Here is a summary of the points raised in another thread on what to look for before you download a route.

Thumbnail:

• is a thumbnail present? One of those "This is NOT a thumbnail" thumbnails does not count as a "thumbnail".
• is the thumbnail is a screenshot that does not show the grid lines?
• does the thumbnail contain a text label (this shows that the creator cares enough to at least add a title)?

Route Description:

• is there a full description of the route?
• does the description give some indication of the contents such as "all assets are on the DLS", "speed trees are/are not used", etc
• If 3rd party assets are present, does the description tell you where to find them?

Other Information/Support:

• Does the creator care enough to post an announcement message in the Freeware forum?
• Are screenshots available, e.g. in the Trainz Gallery, screenshots forum or in the Freeware Forum?
• Does the creator respond to questions about his/her route?

There is no point score for any of these checklist items and no minimum number to "achieve" before you can decide what is worthwhile downloading and what is not.

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This is basically the criteria I have been using in making my lists in the "best of the DLS thread". I didnt realise there were so many routes, locos and rolling stock hidden in the Misc category. I tend to ignore TB 1.* routes and anything under a megabyte for my lists.
Unfortunately, with the demise of Hostthenpost, went 90% of screenshots of routes in either the Freeware or screenshots forums, making the choice of route so much harder. I do run a lot of the routes that I list and have found some keepers in the process.
cheers
Graeme

dangavel said:

might it be worth putting up in the suggestions thread ?

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Most definitely.

I also agree with your first paragraph that we see a lot of adolescent dabbling, and maybe younger too. My five year-old nephew made a route awhile ago after I showed him around the tools. He had a blast and we even saved it until the next time he visited, and made more improvements on it and went for a drive.

I also agree that there's a bunch of stuff up there from the mobile platforms, which should be hidden somehow from the PC/Mac world and perhaps vice versa.

H222 said:

On the flip side, if someone wants to buy Trainz and spend their hard earned on it, why is it up to them to do the legwork to get something running up to any sort of standard?

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I understand what you are getting at but I think you may be missing the point. The issue is with the items on the DLS that were not created by N3V but by an army of creators and Trainz users of all abilities. Should it be N3Vs responsibility to fix everyone's work?

An analogy would be if someone uses Microsoft Word to create a really badly designed Word document. Would it be Microsoft's responsibility to fix it? Or Adobe's responsibility to fix every badly designed Photoshop image?

Trainz is a tool, and like any tool, what the users create with it and choose to share with others is up to them to decide not the builder of the tool.

H222 said:

N3V need to work on some sort of quality control for the DLS. A WIP DLS, or a Desktop only DLS, or a N3V tick of approval on great, completed, high quality assets is something they need to explore IMO

Click to expand...

So the argument really is - should N3V be the judge of what is "good enough" to be posted on their site, after all many new users will judge the product by what they see on the DLS? A fair enough argument and one that has been raised many many times in these forums. Who would be the judge - one person or a committee? What will be the criteria?

These and other questions have never been answered in these forum discussions to everyone's satisfaction. Likewise, points and rating systems, popularity votes, number of downloads are all too easily rorted.

Exactly what is a "great, completed, high quality asset"? I cringe with embarrassment when I look back at the "quality" of the first assets I uploaded to the DLS but the experience of creating and uploading them was a great learning tool. Do we expect the first uploads by newbies to show the same quality as those by the experienced old hands? I fear that a DLS that has an "experienced creators only" upload clause will see the end of Trainz.

My opinions only.

As I already noted, all too easy to end up with a Reddit type system where a decent route or asset gets down-voted whereas a one board circle of track manages to get 200 thumbs up from the guy's mates.

At the end of the day the DLS is a potpourri and if you download something not to your taste, just delete it. We are lucky as route builders that we have it, anyone building in MSTS or TS20xx has to either host the files themselves or at a third party subscription site such as TS, RWA etc. Steam Workshop is only useful for TS20xx routes if you use entirely default or official DLC assets in your route.

What I fear that there would be a complete purge of all the old great assets on the DLS, assets that still work great in 04, 06, 09, 10, 12 ... but now have errors in T:ANE

I am beginning to understand why older assets show up with errors, and because they would cause T:ANE to crash, all because of T:ANE's strict error checking

Is it true, that ALL the assets that do not work in T:ANE, if someone dedicated, worked hard and long on them, rewriting config files, up-ing them to T:ANE config file standards, that all those non-working older legacy assets would ALL work in T:ANE ?

(the "kinder, and gentler, nice, warm, fuzzy, cozy, side" of Cascaderailroad)

cascaderailroad said:

What I fear that there would be a complete purge of all the old great assets on the DLS, assets that still work great in 04, 06, 09, 10, 12 ... but now have errors in T:ANE

I am beginning to understand why older assets show up with errors, and because they would cause T:ANE to crash, all because of T:ANE's strict error checking

Is it true, that ALL the assets that do not work in T:ANE, if someone dedicated, worked hard and long on them, rewriting config files, up-ing them to T:ANE config file standards, that all those non-working older legacy assets would ALL work in T:ANE ?

(the "kinder, and gentler, nice, warm, fuzzy, cozy, side" of Cascaderailroad)

Click to expand...

T:ANE's error checking was increased to make the program run smoother and better. For every error that doesn't get caught, that exists in an asset with errors, there's an increased change of poor performance, or worse a crash.

You fears are unnecessary because there's a dedicated group of volunteers working hard at fixing and testing assets to ensure they will work in T:ANE. These are gleaned from the DLS, based on a list supplied by N3V, and the assets are repaired, tested, and uploaded again.

My suggestion is to setup a filter in Content Manager as follows to check for installed, but obsolete content:

Installed = True
Out-of-date = True.

Anything listed can be updated. For built-ins you may need to right-click and view asset versions.

Once done you can delete the obsolete and not built-in assets. I setup a filter for that too.

After you go through your content, you will find that things run better than they did and there will be more and more coming along as the CRG goes through more content over time.

Jordon Thanks that helps a lot. Give me places to go.

The simple fact that anyone can upload an asset to the DLS, without discrimination (other than that you have a legitimate Trainz version registered) ... And there is no one human being checking the thousands of daily uploads, for quality ... an automated check is done by the N3V site computer, and if all the stuff in the asset are in proper order and configuration, it is installed on the DLS by an automated computer checking for errors, and trainz-build ... not by a human being ... so anyone can upload a texture named: "Poo", and it is there on the DLS

I have downloaded millions of assets, and deleted millions, as they are easily deleted from your CM ... Sometimes this is great, as you pick up allot of dependency assets, ones that you never would have imagined they existed

Again, a route or asset that will not run in T:ANE, is not necessarily "rubbish", as it does run in lower Trainz versions quite well ... And you can fix them, and it is easy to learn how to turn "Trash" into "Treasure"

(the "kinder, and gentler, nice, warm, fuzzy, cozy, side" of Cascaderailroad)