Not such a newbie with a peeve
- Thread starter EF65
- Start date
My two cents.
There are a lot of "objects" on the DLS that have have no real thumbnail and/or no description. Maybe the name is intriguing and it's a quick download so you give it a shot. There is also a section in the forums where creators can post their latest and greatest creations.
Routes are usually a lot bigger and take a lot longer to DL. The only help for making a decision is to look at a thumbnail and a description. Many are not very descriptive, like "Really Big Enjoy". Looking at some of the available Routes, I'm of the opinion that a lot of ego-publishing is happening.
I would suggest that for Routes, N3V set up a new category in the forum for Downloadable Routes. Before a creator can upload a Route to the DLS he/she must make a reviewed* entry into that thread. There should be between three and six screenshots. There should be a detailed description of the Route including Region, location and time period and any known dependencies not available on the N3V DLS. The description in the pop-up on the DLS would then just be a link to the page in that thread.
*Like N3V reviews the posting of new threads in the Suggestion Boxcar before they become visible to us. These reviewers can be N3V employees or volunteers from among users. The review would be of the actual Route, just to ensure that there is enough descriptive information to be of value.
There are a lot of "objects" on the DLS that have have no real thumbnail and/or no description. Maybe the name is intriguing and it's a quick download so you give it a shot. There is also a section in the forums where creators can post their latest and greatest creations.
Routes are usually a lot bigger and take a lot longer to DL. The only help for making a decision is to look at a thumbnail and a description. Many are not very descriptive, like "Really Big Enjoy". Looking at some of the available Routes, I'm of the opinion that a lot of ego-publishing is happening.
I would suggest that for Routes, N3V set up a new category in the forum for Downloadable Routes. Before a creator can upload a Route to the DLS he/she must make a reviewed* entry into that thread. There should be between three and six screenshots. There should be a detailed description of the Route including Region, location and time period and any known dependencies not available on the N3V DLS. The description in the pop-up on the DLS would then just be a link to the page in that thread.
*Like N3V reviews the posting of new threads in the Suggestion Boxcar before they become visible to us. These reviewers can be N3V employees or volunteers from among users. The review would be of the actual Route, just to ensure that there is enough descriptive information to be of value.
Whoa ... did someone just dial up the "wayback machine" to the "knock 'em down, drag 'em out" days of olde when these "cat fights" were much more common in these forums and I was beginning to think that things were finally starting to quieten down. Or are some people getting in a little practice before the release of TRS2019? We are at risk here of losing sight of the swamp because of all the alligators.
The OP was making a legitimate point about the quality of some uploads to the DLS - exactly the sort of point that many have been making recently about the "mobile platform wire frame" routes appearing on the DLS. I agree, he was a bit harsh in his criticism of the creator of the "offending" route (such mistakes can happen - I am also guilty) but it was, by then, only his 5th post to these forums despite his admission that he was "not a newbie".
I also agree that the route in question was a freebie and, like all gift horses, you don't condemn a free gift because it has a relatively minor blemish that could be easily fixed by replacing a missing asset or three. If the route was payware then I would regard his complaint as having a lot more legitimacy.
Like the OP, I have also spent a fair bit of money on Trainz since it was first released (and will continue to do so) but I also accept that the DLS is a "dogs breakfast" when it comes to the quality of its offerings. I don't see any fair, workable or practical solution to this problem, despite ecco's well thought out posting above. Ratings and review systems are far too open to abuse and popularity rorts.
There have been posting in other threads that have offered more practical advice for sorting the wheat from the chaff on the DLS - for example https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?146773-routes-on-the-DLS
The OP was making a legitimate point about the quality of some uploads to the DLS - exactly the sort of point that many have been making recently about the "mobile platform wire frame" routes appearing on the DLS. I agree, he was a bit harsh in his criticism of the creator of the "offending" route (such mistakes can happen - I am also guilty) but it was, by then, only his 5th post to these forums despite his admission that he was "not a newbie".
I also agree that the route in question was a freebie and, like all gift horses, you don't condemn a free gift because it has a relatively minor blemish that could be easily fixed by replacing a missing asset or three. If the route was payware then I would regard his complaint as having a lot more legitimacy.
Like the OP, I have also spent a fair bit of money on Trainz since it was first released (and will continue to do so) but I also accept that the DLS is a "dogs breakfast" when it comes to the quality of its offerings. I don't see any fair, workable or practical solution to this problem, despite ecco's well thought out posting above. Ratings and review systems are far too open to abuse and popularity rorts.
There have been posting in other threads that have offered more practical advice for sorting the wheat from the chaff on the DLS - for example https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?146773-routes-on-the-DLS
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I think you may have meant this one ; https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...es-TANE-Friendly-Classics-The-best-of-the-DLS
cheers
Graeme
cheers
Graeme
cascaderailroad
New member
wow, are you finished yet. Sounds like someone wi$$ed in your cornflakes
I like my breakfast cerial un-molested ... Thank You :hehe:
People who cast stones, should not be without flaws ... using critical terminology and utter demands, like: "junk", "half done piece of trash", "half A$$ed layouts" ... "finish it" ! These words just "Gets My Goad Up", what Gall and "Huge Stones" people have, to insult other peoples routes, when: "They themselves couldn't create a route, if their entire life depended on it"
Some of the people creating your "Trash" have a disability ... and at least they tried ... What have you offered to the community ... except your professional all powerful Wizzard of OZ criticizium ?
Rather, it is properly the coined phrase: "Half Asked" as in: I "asked" you to finish it, and you did it "Halfway", ie: "Half Asked"
I have never seen a "Half an A$$ked" ... but this is an exception, in this case, being a "Whole" A$$ked
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The OP mentioned several routes but selected CSX Henderson Sub for his complaint. That route is 11 years old and of TRS2006 vintage. As many of us know, later versions of Trainz, and especially TANE, have made 1000's of assets faulty and this often results in routes and sessions missing assets. The missing bridge is one of those missing assets due to faulty dependencies.
I cannot speak for the original author but it seems most likely that the route was intact and functional when uploaded. Therefore it is hard to justify any complaint of quality control.
Perhaps not mentioned in the Forum CoC, but it seems to me there is an unwritten rule that you don't criticise a creator's work without some justification. In my view there is no justification in this case.
That said, there are a lot of, let's say, poor assets on the DLS including all those "backup" routes by mobile Trainz users.
The CRG has repaired literally 1000's of assets on behalf of the community. Many of those assets are of dubious quality compared to others, but in their defence, many were made back in the early days of Trainz and reflect the knowledge, skills and tools of the day. You don't have to use them but we fix them anyway.
The other point worth remembering is that we have quite a few members and creators whose life skills may be less than the average. For them, creating and uploading something may be a real achievement.
I cannot speak for the original author but it seems most likely that the route was intact and functional when uploaded. Therefore it is hard to justify any complaint of quality control.
Perhaps not mentioned in the Forum CoC, but it seems to me there is an unwritten rule that you don't criticise a creator's work without some justification. In my view there is no justification in this case.
That said, there are a lot of, let's say, poor assets on the DLS including all those "backup" routes by mobile Trainz users.
The CRG has repaired literally 1000's of assets on behalf of the community. Many of those assets are of dubious quality compared to others, but in their defence, many were made back in the early days of Trainz and reflect the knowledge, skills and tools of the day. You don't have to use them but we fix them anyway.
The other point worth remembering is that we have quite a few members and creators whose life skills may be less than the average. For them, creating and uploading something may be a real achievement.
cascaderailroad
New member
You are right ... T:ANE has broken allot of assets, and previously working routes ... and I am sure that the next version of Trainz will break even more assets ... Some day the entire DLS will be broken, and nothing will be compatible any more ... Meaning everyone will need to start all over again, from scratch on creating assets and routes
Perhaps that would be a good thing. When TANE was first announced there were some who put forward the view that it should make a complete break with all existing DLS assets and start again from scratch so nothing from previous Trainz versions would be compatible. I was skeptical but I now see some merit in that approach. My main concern was how long would it take before there would be a sufficient base of TANE assets uploaded to the DLS to make the "incompatible" TANE self sustaining.
I just did a quick count of the newest 100 assets on the DLS and only 17 of them are TANE, nearly all of the rest are for TS12. This is not a fair test of how well TANE would have done by itself since I would suspect that all of the TS12 assets in that count would also be TANE compatible. But it has taken 3+ years to get just 17% of new assets TANE only. I appreciate that repeating that survey at different times would very probably yield different results.
The new TRS2019 has new graphics features that, I fear, will take much longer for content creators to master if we have the software, skills and time to do so. This is not an argument against bringing in new features and technology to the Trainz franchise, it has to happen if it is going to survive and I am certain that some creators will successfully make the transition.
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cascaderailroad
New member
Sorry ... I'll try to be more civil and nice in the future, from now on (the nice, warm, fuzzy, cozy, side of cascade)
I'm also a newbi to Trainz, and I understand both sides of the conversation. The learning curve with this program is steep, the complexities of the files, where to put what, values needed and what files to use, heck even where to find whatever it is you need change is overwhelming. Just the verbiage for builders/skinners is vastly different. I understand the complexities of building assets as I produced many original 3d models in MSTS and skinned tons more. (example of verbiage issues for me asset vs model simple thing but when starting out important).
I've come far enough along in this game that I'll deleting anything that has missing parts. Period.
If your "Bridge" is missing ... go fix it, or replace it. I see that response a lot. How? I'm sure its probably a simple process once you know how, but how do you gain that knowledge?
Now for the real reason I'm responding to this post. I'm experienced enough to be willing to try and fix things, HOW?
I've spent more time looking at the forum, YouTube, Trainz Wiki-page (much out of date info) and doing web searches on how to fix things than running trains in this game! While there are some fairly decent info out there, there is a definite lack of uptodate How To's for this program. The Trainz - Content Creation tutorials are great but leave many unanswered questions. How do you replace an asset? How do you replace a truck, wheel, sound, a building, track, ground or ANYTHING in this game. From what I understand there are a content creator can use a developed asset (ie a locomotive bogie for instance), give the original makes credit and add it to your 3d creation. How? Is that a function of the 3d program or is it in the asset config file? The process for doing a most anything in this game is NOT intuitive. Perhaps its my aged mind, but I spent over a week tying to load up my first re-skin. Thanks to pointers from all that pushed me along. Yea once I up loaded it, it all makes sense and will be simpler to do next time.
Nothing is simple in this game. I've notice there are a few newer folks in the forums, If new blood is needed to keep things going, new/better/uptodate tutorials are needed. Maybe Auran is shooting itself in the foot by releasing all these versions and relying on users to provide the instructions on how to use this detailed program. .
I'm just starting to learn Blender, its 100 times more complex than the 3d program for MSTS. I would like to develop an asset or two that doesn't exist on the DLS or is obsolete, but after three weeks of fiddling with Blender, I strongly suspect that's not going to happen.
OK Flame me. I'm going to my virtual basement and play with my trains.
Don
I've come far enough along in this game that I'll deleting anything that has missing parts. Period.
If your "Bridge" is missing ... go fix it, or replace it. I see that response a lot. How? I'm sure its probably a simple process once you know how, but how do you gain that knowledge?
Now for the real reason I'm responding to this post. I'm experienced enough to be willing to try and fix things, HOW?
I've spent more time looking at the forum, YouTube, Trainz Wiki-page (much out of date info) and doing web searches on how to fix things than running trains in this game! While there are some fairly decent info out there, there is a definite lack of uptodate How To's for this program. The Trainz - Content Creation tutorials are great but leave many unanswered questions. How do you replace an asset? How do you replace a truck, wheel, sound, a building, track, ground or ANYTHING in this game. From what I understand there are a content creator can use a developed asset (ie a locomotive bogie for instance), give the original makes credit and add it to your 3d creation. How? Is that a function of the 3d program or is it in the asset config file? The process for doing a most anything in this game is NOT intuitive. Perhaps its my aged mind, but I spent over a week tying to load up my first re-skin. Thanks to pointers from all that pushed me along. Yea once I up loaded it, it all makes sense and will be simpler to do next time.
Nothing is simple in this game. I've notice there are a few newer folks in the forums, If new blood is needed to keep things going, new/better/uptodate tutorials are needed. Maybe Auran is shooting itself in the foot by releasing all these versions and relying on users to provide the instructions on how to use this detailed program. .
I'm just starting to learn Blender, its 100 times more complex than the 3d program for MSTS. I would like to develop an asset or two that doesn't exist on the DLS or is obsolete, but after three weeks of fiddling with Blender, I strongly suspect that's not going to happen.
OK Flame me. I'm going to my virtual basement and play with my trains.
Don
cascaderailroad
New member
The (the nice, warm, fuzzy, cozy, side of cascade) would be happy to help anyone, via PM or Skype, on how to edit and fix assets (I'll try to be more civil and nice in the future, from now on)
Deleting a great TRS2004 route, all because one bridge from TRS2004, is now faulty or missing in T:ANE (but works just great in TS12) would be silly, like shooting oneself in the foot, just because you need a simple toenail clipping
I'll try to be more civil and nice in the future, from now on
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When I first started with TRS2006 I downloaded a route called Wild Bill 2. This had many missing dependancies as it was probably released for one of the early versions. I was so impressed with this route that I decided to have a go at fixing it. There were three or four missing bridges so I looked on Content Manager for bridges and downloaded some of them so I could see if they were suitable. i then simply joined them to the tracks on either side of the ravine and tested that the trains ran over the bridge. I then looked for the other missing dependancies and decided that those that were unimportant could be ignored. I then started adding extra buildings and even laid out a town with a railway station which involved learning how to remodel the area so that the ground was suitable for a town. As far as fixing locos are concerned there were dedicated threads for that. One of the joys of trainz is that you can play with it and if you mess up start again.
Ken
Ken
Ken, that is exactly how most of us "old Trainzers" learnt to use Trainz. Experiment, make mistakes, try again - it was also a great way to learn about making backup copies first. There was no Trainz Video channel on YouTube and no Trainz Wiki - YouTube and Wikipedia did not even exist.
These forums were (and still are) the best source of support and advice.
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view) Trainz has become more complicated as it has become better, a trend that will continue. Don, in post #32 above, is correct in that there are still a lot of unanswered questions in the documentation (videos and Wiki pages) and much of the Trainz Wiki is out of date. That unfortunately is the main problem with explaining technology, it is almost impossible for the documentation to keep up with the reality. As an author of technical books I know this.
During the last few months I have spent a lot of time updating existing pages and adding new pages to the Trainz Wiki specifically for TANE (see the http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/HowTo pages) and I have noticed that Tony, WindWalker, Zec (in his S301 guise) and possibly others have been doing the same for the yet to be released TRS2019.
The task of providing clear, complete and accurate information on how to do things in Trainz is not a simple one particularly given the "sandbox" nature and, to me at least, incredible complexity of the product (that is a part of what attracts me to Trainz and holds my interest). Much of that information has to come from the users themselves - I doubt that N3V will ever have an "information" department big enough to do the job. Does anyone remember when MS Office came on 5 floppy disks and with several encyclopedic sized reference books? Not even Micro$oft does that now.
Things are improving but it is not going to happen overnight and not without input from the community (that's us folks).
These forums were (and still are) the best source of support and advice.
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view) Trainz has become more complicated as it has become better, a trend that will continue. Don, in post #32 above, is correct in that there are still a lot of unanswered questions in the documentation (videos and Wiki pages) and much of the Trainz Wiki is out of date. That unfortunately is the main problem with explaining technology, it is almost impossible for the documentation to keep up with the reality. As an author of technical books I know this.
During the last few months I have spent a lot of time updating existing pages and adding new pages to the Trainz Wiki specifically for TANE (see the http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/HowTo pages) and I have noticed that Tony, WindWalker, Zec (in his S301 guise) and possibly others have been doing the same for the yet to be released TRS2019.
The task of providing clear, complete and accurate information on how to do things in Trainz is not a simple one particularly given the "sandbox" nature and, to me at least, incredible complexity of the product (that is a part of what attracts me to Trainz and holds my interest). Much of that information has to come from the users themselves - I doubt that N3V will ever have an "information" department big enough to do the job. Does anyone remember when MS Office came on 5 floppy disks and with several encyclopedic sized reference books? Not even Micro$oft does that now.
Things are improving but it is not going to happen overnight and not without input from the community (that's us folks).
There are many gemstones in among the pebbles on the DLS. Finding that gemstone is a task unto its self. If you don't like the routes on the DLS, make some yourself, or use the ones you have downloaded as a basis for your own creations.
Back in December 2003 I started my Trainz journey. I downloaded some routes to see how others did it. One of the routes was done very well while another didn't quite live up to its description and noticed quite a few things wrong including floating track. The track was placed in a cut, but the ground was never leveled underneath.
I poked around the tools, looked through the user manual, and learned how to raise the ground up underneath, among other things. For the next week afterwards, I added to this route, relaid track and did all kinds of things as I learned about Surveyor, which is a heck of a lot easier to use than many editors out there, which seem to meant for the professional route builders to use.
A short time after that, I took on my own project, which still exists today. This route went through a morphing from a simple 4 baseboards to a virtual empire that grew and grew with a combination of my building plus merging, but mostly my own building. The route is still active in my T:ANE repertoire and is still being updated as I go through and revisit the early sections and bring them up-to-date.
As a matter of fact, even now the first thing I do when I download a new route, I'll open it in Surveyor to see how it's made. This has been a great learning tool as I've seen how the user placed his or her signals, track, and I've used these routes as learning tools for scenery. There are some authors who became my mentors this way, and today I still hold them in high regard for their hard work they did to make the routes so great.
If you should follow this lead, which I recommend highly you'll find that route building is not an easy task you think. Route building takes time and lots of it to get a route the way it should be, but Trainz is a unique product in that just about anything but the built-in stuff can be modified, or changed whether it's a route or nearly any other asset. If you find something missing on a route that you really like, don't be afraid to replace it. The thing is with the plethora of assets on the DLS, you are bound to find something to replace the missing asset.
Back in December 2003 I started my Trainz journey. I downloaded some routes to see how others did it. One of the routes was done very well while another didn't quite live up to its description and noticed quite a few things wrong including floating track. The track was placed in a cut, but the ground was never leveled underneath.
I poked around the tools, looked through the user manual, and learned how to raise the ground up underneath, among other things. For the next week afterwards, I added to this route, relaid track and did all kinds of things as I learned about Surveyor, which is a heck of a lot easier to use than many editors out there, which seem to meant for the professional route builders to use.
A short time after that, I took on my own project, which still exists today. This route went through a morphing from a simple 4 baseboards to a virtual empire that grew and grew with a combination of my building plus merging, but mostly my own building. The route is still active in my T:ANE repertoire and is still being updated as I go through and revisit the early sections and bring them up-to-date.
As a matter of fact, even now the first thing I do when I download a new route, I'll open it in Surveyor to see how it's made. This has been a great learning tool as I've seen how the user placed his or her signals, track, and I've used these routes as learning tools for scenery. There are some authors who became my mentors this way, and today I still hold them in high regard for their hard work they did to make the routes so great.
If you should follow this lead, which I recommend highly you'll find that route building is not an easy task you think. Route building takes time and lots of it to get a route the way it should be, but Trainz is a unique product in that just about anything but the built-in stuff can be modified, or changed whether it's a route or nearly any other asset. If you find something missing on a route that you really like, don't be afraid to replace it. The thing is with the plethora of assets on the DLS, you are bound to find something to replace the missing asset.
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If you decide to replace a truck on a locomotive, it is done in the config file. Sometimes the truck will be floating above the track when you go into Trainz. This is solved by following the instructions in the following link. But first, you must scroll down to 'Fixing with Hack #7 – Enabling the ARN on TUME’s FP45 and adjusting the mesh height'. Then scroll down a little more to where it says 'BONUS MOD'. This will explain how to solve the problem of trucks floating above the tracks. Link: https://n8phu.wordpress.com/fixing-with-hack/
EDIT:
I also recommend you download the tools on this website made by fellow Forum member shaneturner. These have come in handy for me when I'm installing stuff into TANE that ends up being faulty. There are a few faulty items that I've come across that these won't fix, but these fix most faulty content. The ones that I use most often is PM2IM, Images2TGA, Trainz Mesh Viewer 2, and AssetX. AssetX is a bit tricky to set up, but once you set it up, it will help you out a lot.
http://trainz.shaneturner.co.uk/tutorials/index.php?page=pevsoft-trainz-tools
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Allow me to explain the purpose of some of the programs I listed:
PM2IM:
In previous editions of Trainz PM, short for Progressive Mesh, were supported. Trainz no longer support PM meshes and have been replaced with IM, Indexed Mesh, meshes. If something you install uses PM meshes, it'll show up as faulty. This program turns the PM meshes into IM meshes, making them no longer faulty.
Image2TGA:
In Trainz, content uses .TEXTURE files. If you save that as a .cdp in a previous edition of Trainz and install it into a newer edition of Trainz, it'll show up as faulty saying something like '.txt file missing for .TEXTURE file'. Trainz cannot 'read' .TEXTURE files, making these faulty. This program converts the .TEXTURE files into .TGA, (TarGA) files, which will no longer make them faulty.
Trainz Mesh Viewer 2:
This is also handy also.
AssetX:
I've only scratched the surface with this program, so I'm not certain how much this can do, but it'll come in handy.
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The Trainz pdf manual, "Launcher > File > View PDF Manual", has a wealth of information and well worth a read. It is a great way to get an idea of how to use trainz along with the tools etc.
Unfortunately, I have noticed that the PDF manual supplied with TANE is out of date. The new TANE features, such as procedural tracks, environment collisions, navigation points, interlocking towers; that have appeared in the various TANE SPs are only very briefly mentioned with not enough information to even begin to understand how to use them. This is the main problem with traditional published documents, including PDFs, they are static and reflect the situation that existed when the document was created.
I still would not discount the manual because of what you mentioned, it is a good starting point for getting an idea of how things work in trainz