Trainz and "Gameplay" - Feedback thread

Tony_Hilliam said:

1) Robd, if the agenda was hidden, I wouldn't be posting in the Trainz forums...

2)...in tune with the "masses".

3) Rather than sitting back, I'd love to hear how your typical driving session operates.
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1) Of course, anything you say!

2) I resent being refered to as one of the 'masses', I find that quite derogatory and sets the tone for perceived hierarchical inequalities between Trainz users and N3V staffers!

3) Sat back is my prefered position whilst using Trainz. As far as gameplay goes I am inclined towards the modifying of existing assets rather than full blown railway operation. I think cyberdongreen summed it up for myself rather well in post #18 in this thread.

Rob.
 
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Hi Rob - it's funny how words in a forum can be misinterpreted. I've edited comment to say "Trainz Community" which I presume/hope is less derogatory (but given that I wasn't attempting to denegrate in the first place, I may well be wrong again).
But thanks for your further feedback - much appreciated.
 
Tony_Hilliam said:
Hi Rob - it's funny how words in a forum can be misinterpreted. I've edited comment to say "Trainz Community" which I presume/hope is less derogatory (but given that I wasn't attempting to denegrate in the first place, I may well be wrong again).
But thanks for your further feedback - much appreciated.
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By the way, am not Harry, it is Harold.

The "masses" are always offended by the slightest thing.

Tony, you are clueless what train-sims are used for, mostly whining about lack of physics and screenshots.

Harold
 
Tony_Hilliam said:
  • Is there a particular built-in session that you like? (and what makes this one special?)
  • Is there a session on the DLS that you enjoy?
  • If you create your own sessions, what is a typical set-up? (e.g. do you use navigation points?)
  • Do you only ever drive a single train or do you like to jump from one to another?
  • Do you use CMTM (Car Movement and Traffic Management System) ? Or perhaps model railroad card systems?
  • Are there certain rules that you use when making your own gameplay?
  • How do you use commodities in your sessions?
  • Do you only use Quickdrive? (and why?)
  • How much AI traffic do you like in your sessions?
  • Have you tried multiplayer? (What did you like/dislike?)
  • Anything else you'd like to throw in to the discussion.
Click to expand...

1. No. Most built-in routes from TS12 and T:ANE are ugly (N&W Coal, Hinton and ECML come to mind).

2. No.

3. I don't use navigation points, i use trackmarks, triggers, and variables.

4. I prefer to drive a single train with multiple different tasks to complete.

5. I want to learn to use CMTM but as of today, no.

6. Trigger Checks, Consist Checks, Variable Checks, Driver Schedule Rules, and Message Popups.

7. What? You put a commodity in a traincar and it can be loaded and unload at specific industries. I don't understand the question.

8. No. I prefer to use the basic Startup Options Rule.

9. A lot. It just aggravates me that the AI in T:ANE is idiotically terrible.

10. Yes. It's buggy in SP1-HF4 but works pretty well in SP2. It can be really fun with the right people and i don't think it gets the credit that it deserves.

11. Make sure TRS2019 doesn't have a horrible launch like T:ANE did.
 
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Is there a particular built-in session that you like? (and what makes this one special?)
No - I get bored after about 10 minutes of running a session , much prefer to make my own that cater to my own specific tastes

Is there a session on the DLS that you enjoy?
No - see above

If you create your own sessions, what is a typical set-up? (e.g. do you use navigation points?)
Simple sessions usually done on the fly , Sometimes with a few trains passing through from portal to portal using the central portal rule ,
Though mostly on the fly and making full use of TANE's ability to add and remove trains from a live session - That feature is the bees knees !

Do you only ever drive a single train or do you like to jump from one to another?
I jump , variety is spice of life and good for keeping boredom at bay .

Do you use CMTM (Car Movement and Traffic Management System) ? Or perhaps model railroad card systems?
No

Are there certain rules that you use when making your own gameplay?
I like to use the AWS rule and I also make full use of the Junction normal rule where I can set a route up for a train I've just told to move (Using "STW drive" not the standard Drive command) and can leave it as I know any changed points will revert to their "Normal" position after it has passed .

How do you use commodities in your sessions?
Yes I like to load trains , with various commodities , Once again the ability to do this on the fly in TANE is brilliant .

Do you only use Quickdrive? (and why?)
I do most of the time and is my preferred method to get a session running but I have also set up sessions , saved them and had to leave them for another time . These are usually started up directly from the routes session list .

How much AI traffic do you like in your sessions?
Depends on the size of the route , I do like routes where I can lineside and watch the world go by , I have built a few which are really just huge ovals (like a huge trainset) but which have many signalling sections , Sidings , Yards , depots , stations etc. These usually have a quite a few AI trains just simply driving along using the "STW drive" and "Set max speed - MPH" commands , I usually just play signalman , routing slower freights into loops etc. or I'll do some shunting in a yard as the trains pass by .

I once had 45 trains moving on one of my larger routes all at the same time , All of them using the "STW drive" rule but there was a very noticeable drop in framerates along the full length of the route including off scene areas with only blank boards and 2 tracks . Must of hit the limit that my computer could handle !

Have you tried multiplayer? (What did you like/dislike?)
No

Anything else you'd like to throw in to the discussion
I like to keep things simple when it comes to sessions , TANE currently allows me to do that , please keep it that way .
Its bad enough your making content creation so hard as to be not worth bothering with . Don't spoil our session fun as well !
 
Sorry Harold (offended someone else..) My Dad was Harold to us family, and Harry to everyone else - guess I just introduced him to you as Harry lol.

Do I detect a touch of sarcasm in the next comment? And it is "whining about a lack of physics" and "whining about screenshots"? Or "whining about a lack of physics and a lack of screenshots"?

Chris, Re: "Make sure TRS2019 doesn't have a horrible launch like T:ANE did."
That's exactly why Trainz Next, er.. TRS17, er .. TRS18, er... TRS19 is not yet released. We've made incredible leaps forward since the TANE launch. Over three years of hardening, optimising and tweaking. While the Early Access version is not the final release version, we're pretty confident it will knock some socks off. After all, even Harold is [mostly] happy with it :).
 
I'm not going to limit based on the suggests, I'll go just how I feel the gameplay over the years of playing.

The thing that makes me really the Trainz being number one train simulator gameplay-wise is the flawless AI and industry functionality.

AI is a great not only for automatic railroading but also for the side activity when driving a session. I love the feeling when suddenly a train crosses around me. It feels so real.
I prefer driving a single train meanwhile others operate around me. Although I might like driving multiple trains, just I didn't get to this case yet. :D

Industries, ah how much I like those. I prefer freight operation over the passenger I think that's why. I like that you can send some kind of material somewhere and that will produce something else etc. I don't know but I just like dat so much. :D

These two things are definitely the ones which I would be sad if they would be forgotten in the Trainz meantime.
 
Is there a particular built-in session that you like? (and what makes this one special?) Only used to see how some things are done
Is there a session on the DLS that you enjoy? Nothing in particular
If you create your own sessions, what is a typical set-up? (e.g. do you use navigation points?) Mainly trackmarks and station destinations
Do you only ever drive a single train or do you like to jump from one to another? All trains are under AI control. I jump from one to another to enjoy the ride
Do you use CMTM (Car Movement and Traffic Management System) ? Or perhaps model railroad card systems? No, make it up as I go along
Are there certain rules that you use when making your own gameplay? Drive via, Wait, and other traffic control rules
How do you use commodities in your sessions?Mainly into passengers so no commodities
Do you only use Quickdrive? (and why?) Can't remember the last time i used QD.
How much AI traffic do you like in your sessions? Lots, to fill in the background
Have you tried multiplayer? (What did you like/dislike?) No, have no interest in MP
Anything else you'd like to throw in to the discussion. As a few others have mentioned, I spend more time in Surveyor. Also creating my own objects in order to populate my own routes. If a true scheduling module could be added, that would be great. Adding individual rules to each driver gets tedious real fast
 
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Tony_Hilliam said:
Do I detect a touch of sarcasm in the next comment? And it is "whining about a lack of physics" and "whining about screenshots"? Or "whining about a lack of physics and a lack of screenshots"?
Click to expand...
No, whining about physics and just using the game to produce screenshots.

Some people use the train-sims just for whining. Visit the train-sim forum.

Don't believe most people want to railroad.

MSTS/Open Rails has Activity Generator that generates railroading sessions and most people in that community are oblivious of Activity Generator.

Sessions with the "waypoints" are not railroading, just low level gaming, why I don't use Railworks anymore. All the sessions in the Railworks Steam Workshop are about hitting the mark.

Harold
 
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I have only looked at the builr-in sessions to get an idea how to use rules, triggers and track marks. On the DLS I found Sea port (lewiscc65) very helpful how to use 'resources check'.
So I build my own fantasy routes with a lot of loading and unloading at industries, all A1.
I never drive a train. As in 'Flight simulator' that would end in disaster.
CMTM? No idea. Probably to complicated. Also no interlocking towers, let A1 do the work.
I always use the schedule library and the startup rules. I could not construct a route without ATLS, ASB and TRC
Never felt an urge to use Quickdrive or multiplayer.
I would like to try a route with overhead wiring but so far I have seen so much different stuff on the DLS that I have no idea where and how to start. Most assets give no description, no idea what they are to be used for.

It can not be mentioned often enough, that Trainz is so much fun thanks to the people that invented and made all the extra rules, commands etc. free for everyone to enjoy.
 
robd said:
Hmm, one can't help thinking that there's some hidden agenda in this type of thread topic - what it is in this case, I just can't put my finger on!

Sorry, TH, if that's not something you want to hear (read). I sit back and wait for the flak from the N3V sycophants!

Rob,
Click to expand...

Tony has been playing Train Sim World... :hehe::hehe:

With regard to multiplayer, maybe I'm just an anti social misfit but I just don't see how it is of value in a train sim environment. Even Run8 which initially sold itself on multiplayer has waned a bit. The MMO element consists of one person being relegated to despatcher while interaction with other players is limited to a virtual "wave" as you pass another train.

The only way multiplayer might work is if you had an environment similar to Elite Dangerous, where its route and structured timetable operated in a persistent online world. Players coming into the world would bid for or otherwise takeover trains on the network. These would have to run with AI or bots if no-one else about, of course. There would also need to be protection from "gankers" or seal clubbers, whose sole purpose would be to make mischief by ramming another player or otherwise disrupting normal play. Presumably the concept of "rebuy" insurance would not apply to such an online version of Trainz.

Further to another comment above, I too sometimes like to just take a virtual ride through the route on the "cushions" as it were, rather than actually driving.
 
Being fairly new to this game [less than 18 months I think], and not a veteran from the dark ages I have only ever experienced T:ANE and its various builds over that time period.

With invaluable assistance from some of those vets my joy is in creating routes. Both Australian and British. This means I spend a lot of time in surveyor and on the DLS.
Hardly ever run sessions/routes other than a few others whose creations I admire. Mostly my own. However, that's usually for testing before uploading to the DLS.
I have uploaded one session that has navigations points, and one other without. No particular preference either way. The AWS rule is probably my most common but now having master EIT's future sessions will include both.
CMTM sounds and looks complicated ...so No.
Always use commodities, what's the point without them!
Multiplayer...No.
AI traffic is mostly used when making a session..good to see other rail traffic on a route whether stationary or moving.
Any other points: YES...I simply cannot read dark text on dark backgrounds in Rules. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would configure in this manner..its TOTALLY illogical.
 
I only have TS12 so I will only be talking about TS12.

1: I like the Mojave Subdivision, who doesn't? Jointed Rail made it instead and it came out amazing. Also all their sessions are awesome.

2: I would have to say no to that one only because I never download any sessions. I would only if I want to play multiplayer with someone. Even then you can just make your own.

3: I use the AI heavily on most routes I operate on. Whether it is to do automated switching so I can do something else, like more switching, lol. I also use it to run mainline trains. I mainly have operated on the Mojave Subdivision and what I would do is put a consist together and then send it either North or South depending on its origin. I also have AI consists come from the portals to supply new rolling stock as well as locos to the route.

4: I go from consist to consist pretty frequently, either to see where an AI one currently is or maybe to operate it myself if I want. I do operate trains myself, especially when I know the AI will have a siezure trying to do some things. The one thing I did notice is the pathfinding is crap in TS12 in yards. Oh sure it can do mainlines fine, but that is a HUGE NO on switching. I used add-on commands to make switching work, a whole lot more programming of the loco but it works then.

5: I would if it didn't assign cars to only 1 industry forever or does it not do that? Can you change the assigned industry in Driver is what I am asking. I prefer a car card system to almost anything. I usually just pick cars at random.

6: Not many, I usually do freeroam sessions where I only have a couple of rules to make it easier to do some things for me in Surveyor.

7: Like commodities! How else would I use em? I take the loads or empties from industries and replace them with the appropriate rolling stock as needed. So yes I do use the commodities and I love the realism they add to the game.

8: Yes, so I can switch between Cab or DCC modes and in TS12 only, to place new consists on the route if necessary.

9: I honestly don't care how many AI trains I have. I just want cars to get where I want them to so I can fill the Waybill, which I do use by the way.

10: No I have not tried multiplayer and I wish I could have.

11: I don't really have anything else to say but the road traffic needs to be improved at some point. Doesn't have to be in this version of the game but I, with many others, would like to see improvements to the moving road traffic.
 
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  • Is there a particular built-in session that you like? (and what makes this one special?) I never use built-in Routes / Sessions. I may look at some to get ideas.
  • Is there a session on the DLS that you enjoy? N/A
  • If you create your own sessions, what is a typical set-up? (e.g. do you use navigation points?)Almost exclusively my own Routes and Sessions. The only exception is the Kauai Route which I used as a starting point. Every Route has one Session that I continually add to (until I get bored and start a new one). I typically run 10 -20 trains and a few planes. For me it's: Build a partial Route, add some functional industries, add some trains, tell the drivers where to go and what to do, test run in Quick Drive to make sure everything works. Then add more track, more industries, more trains. Rinse and repeat.
  • Do you only ever drive a single train or do you like to jump from one to another? I never drive trains. I will jump from following one to another in Quick Drive.
  • Do you use CMTM (Car Movement and Traffic Management System) ? Or perhaps model railroad card systems? Not yet.
  • Are there certain rules that you use when making your own gameplay? I use a lot of rules and a lot of driver commands. I wish there was a better way to organize them eg. the Driver Commands list should show alphabetically, not in order in which the Commands were added. I also think the method of setting/adding/changing Commands needs to be improved.
  • How do you use commodities in your sessions? Extensively.
  • Do you only use Quickdrive? (and why?) Only QuickDrive. I have no interest in driving a train. I tried it once on a built-in Route/Session and was bored in ten minutes. I find it much more fun and challenging to instruct the AI Drivers to keep things moving (after all - I pay them a good salary).
  • How much AI traffic do you like in your sessions? As mentioned above, I typically run 10 - 20 trains.
  • Have you tried multiplayer? (What did you like/dislike?) My only interest would be in collaborating and building a Route or Session - not in driving in one.
  • Anything else you'd like to throw in to the discussion. Maybe off topic, but we need improved UI across the board.
 
I'm probably gunna seem like an odd user here, but I almost exclusively use AI for everything. One of my favorite things to do in Tane is find a massive area like Kings Cross, and just send a ton of AI through it, a train for every platform + freight trains running around. I really enjoy watching the AI figure out what to do, where to go.

It does show it's flaws pretty quickly when I do this, but it also lets me appreciate the AI better in each new edition, the step up in AI skill from 12 to tane was fantastic, they get confused alot less frequently now.
 
With his permission, I'm gonna use the method of ecco to respond the questions, as this make it more clear.



  • Is there a particular built-in session that you like? (and what makes this one special?) I do played all the sessions built in in the TANE and payware routes, I only wish there were more as there are so few and when you purchase a route it comes of help a few sessions to know the route.
  • Is there a session on the DLS that you enjoy? There are not many sessions on the DLS, I wish there were more like scenarios to play all the magnificant routes that there out there. Many of the routes are really good but because there are no sessions, I don't really use them. I don't like to do a lot of effort, I basically like to purchase or download a route and have it all done, drive trains, make some screenshots and things like that, I don't like to search for trains and place it on the tracks and all that stuff.
  • If you create your own sessions, what is a typical set-up? (e.g. do you use navigation points?) I don't create my own sessions, I don't know how the creator of session works yet.
  • Do you only ever drive a single train or do you like to jump from one to another? I prefer to drive a single train.
  • Do you use CMTM (Car Movement and Traffic Management System) ? Or perhaps model railroad card systems? Don't know what that is.
  • Are there certain rules that you use when making your own gameplay? I don't use rules, except when sending some trains, so I do use wait, navigate to, unload, load and things like that. I prefer to have it all done in a scenario.
  • How do you use commodities in your sessions? The basic things.
  • Do you only use Quickdrive? (and why?) No, even though I use it to free drive and change time and weather.
  • How much AI traffic do you like in your sessions? I prefer to have a lot of traffic, but also prototipically.
  • Have you tried multiplayer? (What did you like/dislike?) I have tried it but I don't like it.
 
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Hello Tony, sir

For me, 50/50 -- I use T12 for all building creations, and then when any content is done, I place that in TANE -- Basically working in surveyor, like 95% --- With that said, I have two of your questions!


  • Do you use CMTM (Car Movement and Traffic Management System) ? Or perhaps model railroad card systems?
  • Are there certain rules that you use when making your own gameplay?

First, never head of CMTM -- I am curious now --- And it seems most of us posting doesn't know what that is -- Perhaps a brief note on this!

Secondly, the CPC rule is great -- I know it's use for trainz, but I use it for airplanes, and it allows me to config planes landing/taking off, proceeding to terminals. Etc!

So not much driving here --- But still you never know!

Take Care
Ish
 
Tony

My favourite way to use TS12 was playing CC&LE using the CMTM3 session 1 week of operations. I had modified the original route using the beautiful payware speedtrees from Mcquirel and always played using autumn colours. It was stunning but didn't play too smoothly due to 32 bit/single thread limitations of TS12. It would take me almost a month to finish the session playing an hour or two each day. I finished the whole session 3 times before a usable version of T:ANE came along and I removed TS12 because of the annoying waits for asset verification each time I started up.

The route/session worked in the initial versions of T:ANE until you "optimized" the graphics and introduced a severely shortened timeout which prevents the CMTM3 program from completing the setup of new trains exiting from portals. I just tried it again in the latest SP3 build and the route looks beautiful, cruising around the route in 64 bit/multi threads is a breeze but once again the consists exit the portal flawlessly but the driver gets no commands due to the (((@@!! timeout. The CMTM author has moved on to a newer version of his system and so this wonderful creation is orphaned.

Recent sessions by Scratchy and Hiawathamr for payware routes work very well and are good for a single playthrough but the navigation icon implementation is too rigid. The CMTM system tells you what needs to be done and provides time limits but the choice of task ordering is left up to the user. Unfortunately setting up new CMTM sessions is not for the faint hearted.

Creating linear structured sessions is very difficult not really because of complexity (if you can learn 3D modelling you can figure out session building) but because of the time required to debug in real time. There needs to be tools developed to allow fast-forwarding of a session in debug mode to a given break point. This would allow debugging of an error that appears at the 45 minute mark to be accomplished without long coffee/tea breaks or access to multiple computers.

I know that the vocal majority of users are content creators not drivers (including Tony and at least 2 Pioneer Council members), but N3V already has a stranglehold on this subgroup of train simulator users. T:ANE and the new TRS19 are also the best all around simulators for creating/running sessions. N3V just need to modify their business model slightly to hold on the greatly appreciated content creators but also attract new users who just want to drive. This could include an add-on subscription model for routes/sessions or creating better tools/assets for freeware session creation.

Glenn
 
PharmboyNorth said:
Tony

My favourite way to use TS12 was playing CC&LE using the CMTM3 session 1 week of operations. I had modified the original route using the beautiful payware speedtrees from Mcquirel and always played using autumn colours. It was stunning but didn't play too smoothly due to 32 bit/single thread limitations of TS12. It would take me almost a month to finish the session playing an hour or two each day. I finished the whole session 3 times before a usable version of T:ANE came along and I removed TS12 because of the annoying waits for asset verification each time I started up.

The route/session worked in the initial versions of T:ANE until you "optimized" the graphics and introduced a severely shortened timeout which prevents the CMTM3 program from completing the setup of new trains exiting from portals. I just tried it again in the latest SP3 build and the route looks beautiful, cruising around the route in 64 bit/multi threads is a breeze but once again the consists exit the portal flawlessly but the driver gets no commands due to the (((@@!! timeout. The CMTM author has moved on to a newer version of his system and so this wonderful creation is orphaned.
Click to expand...
Still run CC&LE on TS12. Long Island Western also is good.

Updated CC&LE and Long Island Western to CMTM4 and still have a timeout problem in all versions of TANE.

There is Fairmont and Kelley Shortline that has a multiplayer CMTM4 session that can be reconfigured to single player.

<kuid2:439008:100202:2> Fairmont and Kelly Shortline MP Session CMTMS4

Harold
 
I can't answer the topics in the original post, mainly because I don't use any version of Trainz for driving as such, but I will mention a couple of points.

I spend 99% of the time route building as that is the strongest and best feature of Trainz and probably the one feature that has kept me interested in the program all these years. The only time I do drive is to test some section of a route or to fine tune a screenshot set up. If surveyor is the biggest selling point of Trainz for me, driving is one of the worst. It's totally unrealistic and while graphical improvements have been excellent over the years, neither physics or sounds have moved on much over the same period which is a great shame. I've attempted to remedy some of the failings by using the e-spec editor, but it is not intuitive. Perhaps I lack the relevant understanding to even attempt this?

One thing I would like to see is perhaps a little more DLC for UK content, notably, something like professionally created cab interiors, which could easily be used on existing freeware items and which would go someway to improving the in cab atmosphere and allow anyone not wanting DLC to still use the original freeware. The class 55 cab is absolutely superb and some more additions like this would be welcome in my opinion.
 
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