Fed up with Trainz?

What I'm fed up with is people putting high quality content on their personal sites. Just for those sites to go abandon after a year or two then their content gets lost forever...

And your suggestion would be?

Remember everything uploaded to the DLS has to be licensed so that N3V can sell it as part of a DLC. So I have some models that use textures that are specifically not licensed for payware. I think the asking price is a few hundred for such a license. Are you suggesting I should pay money so I can upload to the DLS?

Cheerio John
 
There are lots of pretty buildings and scenery objects for TS2009 and it doesn't need a GTX 1070 to run it.

It runs DHR pretty good, something TANE still doesn't do.

Note to Tony some MP3 sound quality isn't as good as vinyl. TS2009 is still pretty good.

Love Karen
 
This type of thread pops up in the forums fairly regularly. We all have our favourites, be they routes, locomotives, trees, etc and that also applies to the different versions of Trainz. Just about every new version of Trainz has generated flak from some users. There have always been claims of "worst ever version" and even threats of legal action if some long cherished feature or a now "incompatible" asset is not restored.

Obviously progress for some is moving backwards for others. Would I go back to using TS2009, 2010 or TS12? Not for an instant.

As for working assets that were suddenly made faulty by a new release of Trainz - the CRG volunteers are the unsung heroes of the Trainz world. The relatively few faulty assets that remain can be replaced by newer working assets if you are unable or unwilling to attempt the repairs of your favourite but now faulty assets yourself. There are still many, many older assets (going back to build 1.3) that work perfectly in TANE. But do users really want to see assets made 15-17 years ago appearing in routes created today? One thing that really does disappoint me is routes created for TANE that contain billboard trees and non-procedural track.

If running Trainz 2009, 2010, or earlier versions is your favourite pastime then there is nothing stopping you from continuing to do so as long as the hardware and OS still support it.

To answer another question in this thread, as to what exactly a "SpeedTree" is I cannot really tell you. They certainly do not move faster than other trees. But as to why they are better - a comparison between billboard trees (one of my pet hates) and SpeedTrees (v6 please, not the earlier versions that came with TS12) should give you the obvious answers. Other, non-billboard, trees do exist and I occasionally use them in the distance but for close-ups there is again no comparison. My opinion.
 
I just wish I could go back to SP1 was the most stable for me and I LOVED how all the engines were not running while playing you had to click on it and go into cab to start. Was really stupid how they "Fixed that''...........
 
I never actually figured out exactly what a 'Speedtree' was and why they were supposed to be better.

They are animated trees that wave in the wind and take up more memory rather than static versions. I am having a problem replacing them, they cannot be selected for replacement. As I am never going to upload to the DLS, I cloned them and gave them the next update version.
 
If running Trainz 2009, 2010, or earlier versions is your favourite pastime then there is nothing stopping you from continuing to do so as long as the hardware and OS still support it.

For TS2009 I use a Dell Optiplex running a Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3GHz processor with 6Gb of RAM; - 8Gb is the maximum for the motherboard. The operating system is Windows XP X64 Professional. The graphics card I'm using is nothing to write home about, but I'll be changing that soon. The computer is an ex-lease one purchased very cheaply and the E8400 processor came from a local Microsoft approved computer refurbisher. As a woman who is supported by an Invalid's pension I don't have a lot of money to come and go on, - so one of the benefits of sticking with TS2009 is that I don't need some kind of expensive mega-spec computer with an also expensive 4Gb-6Gb graphics card to run the simulator. The computer refurbisher I normally buy from is starting to stock quad core i5 machines at a reasonable price so that will be a possibilty for the future. No Windows 10 though, - I'll be using Windows 7 for that.

I completely agree that around 80% of the trees for TS2009 are terrible, but by carefully choosing from the good ones I manage to do alright. I've seen those animated trees and wasn't impressed. Generally they just look odd and if there's no other evidence in the surrounding landscape that the wind is blowing then they look even more odd.

Country secondary route pre-grouping railways is my thing and I like to work on my layout and enhance and add details so that the railway is serving living communities and not blocks of buildings the trains rush past. I don't use the robot drivers much as I prefer to drive my own locomotives, but then with using a not very intensive timetable this is entirely possible. I do re-skins and I make my own mods, but I have no plans to put anything on the DLS, - and besides they don't want TS2009 stuff anyway. For me TS2009 works and does all I want. It might not suit everyone, but it suits me fine.
 
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What's the difference between Speed Trees and the billboard trees?

Speed Trees is a technology developed Interactive Data Visualization (IDV), which renders trees directly on the video card using the faster more powerful graphics processor unit (GPU) instead of the slower program to CPU to video card route which is the older way of rendering trees, and the way which the billboard trees are rendered.

https://store.speedtree.com

Using the GPU instead of the old memory to CPU to video card, the geometry is rendered much quicker and textures can be applied much quicker. The quality of the trees, of course, is all up to the 3d artist or content creator who made them. Using this faster rendering technology, means that these trees can be animated as we see with them blowing in the wind, which I think was a bit over the top when they were first introduced, and always tuned them down, or used a script (by Otto I think his name is) to turn off the animation totally. This aspect has been fixed in the latest Speed Trees in T:ANE.

Billboards, as mentioned take a lot more work for the computer tor render, and in some cases cause a big performance hit. The reason is it's more complex to load the data into memory by the program, generate the mesh and apply the textures and do all the extra work by the CPU, then finally send them on to the video card for rendering.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both technologies. For older systems, with weaker graphics cards (GPUs), and faster CPUs, the older billboards will work better to a certain extent, and gets laggy and bound up by the Speed Trees.

Billboards only have a single rendering view. The geometry is basically a simple planar mesh with images plastered on them. Think of them as mylar sheets with pictures on them. A now long gone art and architectural supply store Charrette used to sell mylar sheets with trees printed on them for this purpose. Like their computer equivalents, the images were crisscrossed into a star pattern so that there was an image of the tree on all sides, though a single image.

Billboards suffer from an alpha-blending issue since TS2010, and do not always render well. In TS12 some became invisible, or nearly so and rendered like ghostly objects. This aspect was fixed in T:ANE so that both tree-types can be used. But then there's that multiple flat image issue with billboards. In T:ANE, and in other Trainz versions, the trees have distinct surfaces, which looks odd when they all face the same way.

Billboard meshes are double sided. This means that the image is rendered on both sides of the mesh, making extra work to render the trees. *This is also an issue with grass, and in particular grass splines, but they're not in the discussion now.

Billboard trees are images of real trees, yes someone photographed actual trees and used images of them to make the assets.

Speed Trees, on the other hand, are made up from libraries of specific tree types. The content creator can then scale and adjust the trees to suit their liking and needs using sliders and tools. It's this aspect of the Speed Trees which is not always great, due to many being way to big and clumsy - like the built-in ones, which are actually from a tree library available from IDV.

Speed Trees work well on the newer more powerful graphics cards and CPUs because a bulk of the work is done on the video card directly. The data takes a quick path via DMA (Direct Memory Access) from memory to the GPU where they are assembled using the supplied primitives. A primitive is a basic geometric shape which exists as part of a library. Leaves, branches, bark, etc. can be considered primitives. This means instead of trying to spit out the whole tree at once, the pieces are picked up using the code and assembled quickly in memory and displayed quickly. This is not new technology, by the way, earlier graphics programs and even graphics terminals had special chips with basic shapes in them to call up when needed to help speed things up.

Speed trees can be scaled automatically and on the fly. Rotate or move a Speed Tree, unless created at a fixed size, and the size and sometimes its shape can be altered. With billboards, you need a separate size for each individual tree, which means there's actually more of them needed to fill a space.

So that's the basics behind Speed Trees. They do have their advantages, and disadvantages just like the billboards do.

For those looking for great billboard trees in older Trainz versions such as TS2009 and below, check out those created by dmdrake (Dave Drake). His trees are par non and work well for just about every situation.

For later Trainz versions, TS12 and up look for Clam1952's trees. His CL series render well, and he also created a T:ANE version which renders quicker in that program. There are other too by toxa_batoxa (begin with tb), and many, many others. Download try them and delete them if they are a render hog. I found some of the forest series trees look great, but render too slowly - FYI.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks very much John. At last I know what a Speedtree is and how it works. I'm running an average graphics card and a good CPU so most probably the older billboard trees are best for my situation. And I will take a close look at Dave Drake's trees. I think I might have some already, but I'll need to have a closer look at the Content Manager listings to be certain,
 
Great information John, I always learn something new when I see your posts. Thank you.

Cheers mate,
Roy
 
I think the problem here is largely to do with the title of the initial post - Fed up with Trainz. With all due respect to Stationmistress, the title should have been Fed up with converting old assets - something that many of us have experienced over the years through different versions of Trainz.

Solutions? Many, varied but not all guaranteed. These days I do not bother attempting to convert an asset that worked in Trainz 20XX to one that theoretically should work in TANE but doesn't. There are usually plenty of alternatives available either built-in or on the DLS and the CRG may eventually solve the problem for you. I hasten to add that this is not a problem confined to Trainz as I have experienced the issue in legacy versions of other programs.

If it is an old cherished Trainz 20XX route that is the cause of the problem and all the usual methods have failed then perhaps a complete rebuild is the only solution or move onto something else.

If an asset works in Trainz 2009/2010 but not in Trainz 2012 or TANE, despite the best efforts of yourself and others, then you can continue using it in the earlier Trainz versions and move on with something else in the later versions.

Despite this, I have learned a few new things in this thread.
 
Have you updated all the rules and commands for Tane? Schedule library works fine with loads of schedules in it. Pguy has updated most of his rules for Tane and as far as I know the path rule is replaced by the Interlocking Towers which set the paths now. The latest beta cured a lot of the problems with commands.

Hi Stagecoach,

yeah I tried updated versions of commands etc. N3V fixed the problem of TANE properly displaying large quantities of trackmarks, which I am thankful for, but the rules themselves still didn't seem to cope, even though they did in TRS2010. So I moved on to upgrading all my other smaller routes and the SCHEDULE LIBRARY/PATH RULE work as advertised in them. I think it was a deeper problem when the program had to deal with very large amounts of TMs, paths etc.

I will have another crack at it later on, well after SP3 or maybe even in TRS2019, and after I finish my current route project which is a big one (a TransDEM created route of the western half of Rio Tinto's Pilbara Iron here in Western Australia, about 400km of trackage, for the DLS if I can keep the file small enough). So it probably won't be worked on again until next year at the earliest. A lot might change by then. But I do miss it !

If it then still requires complete re-imagining of the AI system with Interlocking Towers etc, then so be it.
 
For TS2009 I use a Dell Optiplex running a Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3GHz processor with 6Gb of RAM; - 8Gb is the maximum for the motherboard. The operating system is Windows XP X64 Professional. The graphics card I'm using is nothing to write home about, but I'll be changing that soon. The computer is an ex-lease one purchased very cheaply and the E8400 processor came from a local Microsoft approved computer refurbisher. As a woman who is supported by an Invalid's pension I don't have a lot of money to come and go on, - so one of the benefits of sticking with TS2009 is that I don't need some kind of expensive mega-spec computer with an also expensive 4Gb-6Gb graphics card to run the simulator. The computer refurbisher I normally buy from is starting to stock quad core i5 machines at a reasonable price so that will be a possibilty for the future. No Windows 10 though, - I'll be using Windows 7 for that.

I completely agree that around 80% of the trees for TS2009 are terrible, but by carefully choosing from the good ones I manage to do alright. I've seen those animated trees and wasn't impressed. Generally they just look odd and if there's no other evidence in the surrounding landscape that the wind is blowing then they look even more odd.

Country secondary route pre-grouping railways is my thing and I like to work on my layout and enhance and add details so that the railway is serving living communities and not blocks of buildings the trains rush past. I don't use the robot drivers much as I prefer to drive my own locomotives, but then with using a not very intensive timetable this is entirely possible. I do re-skins and I make my own mods, but I have no plans to put anything on the DLS, - and besides they don't want TS2009 stuff anyway. For me TS2009 works and does all I want. It might not suit everyone, but it suits me fine.

Also agree about the trees for TS2009.
There are some decent looking trees and shrubs which i have to use in the foreground continuously throughout my routes.
Wouldn't mind some pointers for more good trees and shrubs.:D
 
I think the problem here is largely to do with the title of the initial post - Fed up with Trainz. With all due respect to Stationmistress, the title should have been Fed up with converting old assets.

You forgot the question mark. Fed up with Trainz?. I was asking a general question. Sure, I've had problems with a route, mainly with itself but 99% of all assets work well in all Trainz versions. Like I said before, problems occur due to different rules and missing assets.

Now I have to reposition some trackmarks that with A.I. aren't working as before. I must admit it was difficult first time round to get it right.

The TM's weren't wrong, it was Fixed Track objects disconnecting themselves.

I have learned a few new things in this thread as well.
 
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If you have the beta for Tane the trick was to open session and route and do a delete missing assets. This in most cases corrected the TM's invisibility to the game and also removed ghost TM's.
 
Like many, I was blissfully happy with Trainz Classics and TS12 and couldn't imagine ever needing anything else. To those who wonder whether TANE is worth it I'd say just get it and download rumour3's Route 'Porchester and Bull's Well' (see also the screenshots of it by evilcrow on the UK Screenshots page). For me this was literally a game changer and just about everything before it looks primitive by comparison. You start to realise just how realistic Trainz and TANE can be.
 
The big question for many folk though, - especially those of slender means like me, - is what is the practical minimum computer spec to run TANE? Many computer specs that I've seen quoted on the forms look more like something NASA would be pleased to own so it would be useful to know what the practical minimum is. Note that I say 'practical', not bare minimum as nobody wants to have to put up with jerky stop frame images on their computer screen which attempting to run Trainz.
 
Here'a link to an article we wrote 2 years ago about that:

https://www.trainzportal.com/blog/view/what-hardware-should-i-buy-for-trainz

I would expect those prices to have dropped considerably.

However I would also suggest that to get the most out of the next version of Trainz, you will want something more like a GTXC 1070 Ti
(Note that the game will run fine on lower specs than that, but not with all the bells and whistles turned on)
 
The big question for many folk though, - especially those of slender means like me, - is what is the practical minimum computer spec to run TANE? Many computer specs that I've seen quoted on the forms look more like something NASA would be pleased to own so it would be useful to know what the practical minimum is. Note that I say 'practical', not bare minimum as nobody wants to have to put up with jerky stop frame images on their computer screen which attempting to run Trainz.

A GTX 1060 6 gig video card with practically anything as the CPU is normally accepted as a reasonable standard for TANE or roughly a GTX 980. Having said that these cards are double the price they were a year ago because of bit-coin mining. It is hoped that September / October time frame prices will be back to normal. At the moment anything better than a GTX 1050 is double its usual price.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gpu-hierarchy,4388.html is useful. I built Middleton for laptops and it will run on Intel integrated graphics series 4000 or better and give frame rates of 20+-28 fps. film is 24 fps second. If you look at the table a GTX1030 is well above the series 4000. Some reports say a GTX 1050 ti isn't bad with Trainz. My main machine is playing up at the moment so I'm thinking of buying a GTX 1050 to hobble along with until the cards come down in price.

With GTX1050 TANE should give you better frame rates than TS2009 on your existing hardware using the same viewing distances and assets especially if you can live without shadows. Win 10 helps, it has better drivers. I'm not even sure if TANE will run under XP even 64 bit. My understanding is there are still ways to get a free upgrade to win 10 from win 7.

So the answer to your question your existing machine with a GTX 1050 will do a better job than TS2009, same content and viewing distances. If you want speedtrees and shadows then remember more than 5 different speedtrees and the frame rates plummet and an higher end machine is useful. Content manger can use however many cores you can give it. Driver is getting better but its probably diminishing returns over 4 cores.

TANE runs the CPU cooler than TS12 so the CPU is not so important but the GPU must have directx 11 and is of more importance.

No matter how high end a machine you have include the right pair of sketchup created assets and the frame rates will drop to single figures.

Cheerio John
 
Here'a link to an article we wrote 2 years ago about that:

https://www.trainzportal.com/blog/view/what-hardware-should-i-buy-for-trainz

I would expect those prices to have dropped considerably.

However I would also suggest that to get the most out of the next version of Trainz, you will want something more like a GTXC 1070 Ti
(Note that the game will run fine on lower specs than that, but not with all the bells and whistles turned on)

The US prices today are 40% higher and that's following the link. The GTX 970 are not so common these days and the GPU cards are double, memory is double, high end power supplies are close to double. Basically anything that can mine bitcoins is expensive.

Cheerio John
 
Thanks for that Tony. I am saving towards buying a quad core i5 computer, but plainly a decent graphics card is absolutely essential equipment.
 
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