traffic engineering questions: American RR crossings, proximity to intersections

J

JonMyrlennBailey

Active member
Note the car in the picture of my scale model railroad design. This copper '54 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 is about to make a left-hand turn at the stop sign. The unguarded train track is about 35 feet from the intersection. This crossing has two standard-gauge tracks. Trains can come from either direction. Is it permissible to have a motor road intersection so close to a RR crossing as shown in the picture? If so, how should the driver of this Oldsmobile approach the attempt to make a left-hand turn? It's kind of tricky. As he gets into his turn he might notice one or more trains coming. The driver can't stop too close to the track for safety reasons. The rear of his car will stick out into the intersection and block car traffic and maybe make other people angry. Should he check for trains before he even attempts his left-hand turn? What should he do if he does see or hear any train coming and there is traffic behind him? Should I redesign this intersection so it is farther away from the train tracks so as to be prototypical with the American road systems?
98vjh2.jpg



Here is one real-word motor intersection very close to a RR crossing leaving a motor vehicle as a long bus not much room to clear both the tracks and the intersection upon turning toward the tracks.
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20151024/news/151029278/
a2voro.jpg
 
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In Trainz, no video game drivers ever get mad, have road rage, or even get hurt ... Trains just ghost right on through them ... Consult you State Drivers Education Handbook

It's a RAILROAD TRAIN simulator ... It's only a cartoon video game man ... Sheesh !

What do YOU ... Think YOU should do ?
 
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And what would happen if it is a large truck and trailer that is about to make the left hand turn?

Perhaps the solution would be to add a left turn only lane on the main road and paint out the immediate approach to the crossing as a "no standing" zone.
 
Railroad crossings should be changed to bridges/tunnels separating tracks and roads from each other. I don't care how much money it will cost to separate tracks and roads.
 
jeffmorris said:
Railroad crossings should be changed to bridges/tunnels separating tracks and roads from each other. I don't care how much money it will cost to separate tracks and roads.
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Your bank account deduction will reflect the cost of improving railroad infrastructure ... Darwin awards help contribute to zero population growth, meaning less people, to do dumb stunts at RR crossings
 
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cascaderailroad said:
In Trainz, no video game drivers ever get mad, have road rage, or even get hurt ... Trains just ghost right on through them ... Consult you State Drivers Education Handbook

It's a RAILROAD TRAIN simulator ... It's only a cartoon video game man ... Sheesh !

What do YOU ... Think YOU should do ?
Click to expand...

Well, even the cars ghost between them in overtakings :hehe:
 
I agree with Pware's solution of adding a long left turn only lane. Then you should also add a long right turn lane for the traffic coming from the opposite direction.

Alternatively you could put stoppers on the road before they can make the turn. That would back up traffic but so do school buses in the real world.

Or you could correct the problem by re-routing the roads so that you could make overpasses for the cars going to Jonstown.

But if you want real-world realism, just leave things as they are and expect your car drivers will sometimes get hit by trains. It happens all the time as your photo shows. Why should your sim be safer than the real world?
 
Is there any content for Trainz to make left or right turn lanes? I don't plan to use Carz traffic anyway in the TS12 edition of this route. This Trainz model layout as shown in my picture of the '54 Oldsmobile is attempted by me to be designed to reflect a theoretical physical model layout based upon it. I want it to be an example of safe and practical real-word transportation infrastructure. There are many inherently-dangerous RR crossing setups in the real world. If I were to import this route into TANE, all my RR crossings close to automobile traffic intersections would be guarded and I would enable road traffic while using vincenrh's TRC (triggered rail crossings) content to manage RR crossing traffic. In TS12, I am keeping only static cars on roads for this layout. I can't seem to make boatz ATLS equipment work to my liking in most cases except for one crossing on this route where trains will absolutely never back up over the crossing since there are no RR turnouts for switching operations anywhere near this crossing. Vincerh has his own TRC versions of "traffic stoppers" which I have yet to experiment with. On a TANE route of mine a while back, his TRC content has worked quite reliably for crossing gate control, however. No more stuck gates on crossings near yards and customer sidings where trains back in and out. TRC is based upon triggers which sense the presence of trains within a specified range, not the sequence of trains hitting triggers as in ATLS. I don't know yet how well his content will manage Carz approaching crossings. I HAVE YET TO TRY THEM OUT. His North American RR prototypical grade/level crossing content is only compatible in TANE.
 
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JonMyrlennBailey said:
Is there any content for Trainz to make left or right turn lanes?
Click to expand...




The pic shows Yarnish Divided Highway L3.1 set edge to edge.


The grass divider is CL Grass edge 01. It is placed on top of the road sections where they meet. The "buffers" are Path Concrete.
7xJmrVM.jpg


The lights and traffic stoppers are ATLS.

If you are not concerned with carz traffic, you can pretty much stitch together many different kinds of "no traffic" roads. If you want to add some carz traffic later, overlay your "no traffic" roads with invisible roads to make good use of your turn lanes.
 
JonMyrlennBailey said:
Note the car in the picture of my scale model railroad design. This copper '54 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 is about to make a left-hand turn at the stop sign. The unguarded train track is about 35 feet from the intersection. This crossing has two standard-gauge tracks. Trains can come from either direction. Is it permissible to have a motor road intersection so close to a RR crossing as shown in the picture? If so, how should the driver of this Oldsmobile approach the attempt to make a left-hand turn? It's kind of tricky. As he gets into his turn he might notice one or more trains coming. The driver can't stop too close to the track for safety reasons. The rear of his car will stick out into the intersection and block car traffic and maybe make other people angry. Should he check for trains before he even attempts his left-hand turn? What should he do if he does see or hear any train coming and there is traffic behind him? Should I redesign this intersection so it is farther away from the train tracks so as to be prototypical with the American road systems?
Click to expand...

1) If the ara is circa 1958, then your picture is plausible, and yes he might get others mad when he sticks out.

2) Picture looks circa late 1990's early 2000's with that big diesel, bad boy train, heading to intersection.

3) assuming #2 correct, intersection would be unsuitable to the US department of transportation and would need to be upgraded to guarded crossing and traffic signals for the roads including turn lanes. A request to President Trump would be made for infrastructure updates to include a viaduct, he will surely sign off on it, and then fire someone over it.
 
Christopher824 said:
1) If the ara is circa 1958, then your picture is plausible, and yes he might get others mad when he sticks out.

2) Picture looks circa late 1990's early 2000's with that big diesel, bad boy train, heading to intersection.

3) assuming #2 correct, intersection would be unsuitable to the US department of transportation and would need to be upgraded to guarded crossing and traffic signals for the roads including turn lanes. A request to President Trump would be made for infrastructure updates to include a viaduct, he will surely sign off on it, and then fire someone over it.
Click to expand...

Sometimes there is just not enough real estate available to make turn lanes, widen two-lane/two-way roads or place the intersection farther away from the RR crossing. Model train builders might be on a tight real-estate budget as well. My plan for my layout in theory with these close-proximity T intersections, close-paralleling roadways and grade crossings is to have highly-advanced and coordinated traffic lights interconnected with the railroad signals and gates along with road signs instructing motorists to do special things to negotiate the crossing and intersection as need be. Whenever any trains approach the RR crossing, car traffic gets a red light to stop from every direction. Period. Crews for trains stopped at the nearby passenger station could manually and temporarily override the red lights to allow motor traffic to pass the crossing provided an oncoming train is not approaching on the other track. It takes a lot of coordination between the railroads and the local authorities over the jurisdiction of the crossing motor ways.
 
JonMyrlennBailey said:
Sometimes there is just not enough real estate available to make turn lanes, widen two-lane/two-way roads or place the intersection farther away from the RR crossing. Model train builders might be on a tight real-estate budget as well. My plan for my layout in theory with these close-proximity T intersections, close-paralleling roadways and grade crossings is to have highly-advanced and coordinated traffic lights interconnected with the railroad signals and gates along with road signs instructing motorists to do special things to negotiate the crossing and intersection as need be. Whenever any trains approach the RR crossing, car traffic gets a red light to stop from every direction. Period. Crews for trains stopped at the nearby passenger station could manually and temporarily override the red lights to allow motor traffic to pass the crossing provided an oncoming train is not approaching on the other track. It takes a lot of coordination between the railroads and the local authorities over the jurisdiction of the crossing motor ways.
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Look at Boat's ASB system. They are made to work with traffic lights and train crossings, and they can integrate together.
 
Thank you, John.

I don't think I will go quite that far with Boat's creations. I just put up some static road signs and static scenery traffic lights at the model layout crossing and just imagine in my head how it would all happen in the real world. I could play with ASB down the line as when I advance in TANE in earnest. I will have to get a higher-end computer to even use TANE in a practical manner. My current PC has just enough power to make a TS12-based model layout "doable" for right now. I will have still wing it somewhat.

Of course if I were a rich man, I might seek to build a physical layout like precision clockwork: scale radio-controlled autonomous cars managed by state-of-the-art scale-model traffic engineering and railroad signal coordination that rivals that of the real world. I would contract world-class experts to do all the complex math and computer science. It would be like the 1973 film Westworld in miniature.

Building in Trainz allows one to play civil engineer. If I were a real civil engineer or architect, I would want to design roads, tunnels and bridges and such with the utmost in public safety because I am a conscientious man.

When one builds PC-based simulated railroads or physical model ones, one has to work his imagination as to how this would all work in the real world. The toy train hobby is all about make-believe.
 
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The ASB system works with the traffic lights too so that they will turn red, green, yellow, and can work in conjunction with the train crossings. But I understand too not wanting to go that far with this and keeping things on the line of a model railroad instead of a real railroad. That's what's great about this hobby we can do what we want and use our imagination to fill in the details, and being virtual it costs far less than the real models which are now priced well out of a lot of budgets these days.
 
I think that this is what you're looking for. The white van next to us is in a left turn lane. The black thing hanging between the two traffic lights lights up when the railroad crossing activate and a train crosses the track. When lit, it shows an left turn arrow like those you see when you near a left turn in the road, though it has a red 'no' circle, like those you see on a 'no parking' sign. This means 'no left turn'. Once the train and crossing gates go back up, this signal turns off and you can then turn left onto the road. BNSF50 made something similar to this that's on the DLS and is designed to be used with the ATLS system used for his railroad crossings.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7800736,-84.9731652,3a,75y,140.35h,84.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0Dljwb83LRzLvyWfXihbTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
 
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