Track on rocky ledge -- how?

I've managed to avoid this in the past but I can't this time.

I'm working on a new model Trainz railroad. The location? Somewhere in The Rockies. Difficult terrain, many steep grades, lots of tunnels. And places where the track in on a rocky ledge, with a cliff face upwards on one side and a drop downwards on the other. Something like this scene on a "real" model railroad:



Or in real life:



Those who frequent the model Trainz thread in the screen shot Forum might have seen this image of my progress on my layout thus far. The trestles are place holders to show the grades. I'l like to replace some or even most with track on a narrow rock ledge.



I'm sure others will have encountered this before. I've searched the Forums for a solution to no avail.

Is there a solution? An easy way? Any way?

Phil

Phil, ask normhart, he posted this in the screenie comp thread..

I use wall splines of various sorts to fill in the spaces that filling in under the track doesn't do well. I sometimes cheat and do what sir gibby does and use rock ledge splines. Dan Gavel (dangavel) made some cliff faces, whch start with DG

Thanks, guys.

I've done a bit of experimentation. At this stage I'll most likely go with something like this:





For those interested, the rock spline is "DG twenty four A Cliff 1 flat ROCK ONLY".

The textures are:
Z Rock 13 - orientation = N then E
HP-Sand 04 and 07 - orientation = N
HP-Gras 20 and 25 - orientation = N
All textures at the maximum setting

Phil

That works and nicely done too!

Malc (clam1952) has some rock splines on the DLS.

Quite topical as I remarked the other day I wanted to see if it was possible to build a railway from Lukla to Everest Base Camp. The short answer is - yes, but much of the route is perched on precarious ledges where Surveyor will smudge any rocky terrain texture so I will be investigating use of splines where possible.

Hi Vern --

The one I used is a reskin of Malc's.

Everest Base Camp? It's much easier from the Tibet side. It's probably possible to build a railroad there, though mostly it's at about 5,500m. Instead of working from maps why not go there. I did. Third from right, black top:

Very nice, but these days I'm more of an armchair explorer.

Funny I was about to ask what KUID the rock shelters/snow sheds were in the OP, then realised it's an actual model. Something we aren't actually that well covered for on the DLS unless they masquerade under a non English or obscure name. Only ever been able to find a few examples. Likewise "galleria" style tunnel walls which are common in many mountainous areas where the train clings to the edge of the hillside.

Phil, I'm not trying to be a pain in the a__ or a nitpicker but is it possible to vary that cliff spline in post #4? Looks to be too repetitious. Other than that I'm looking forward to downloading another one of your routes. Thanks.

stouthm --

Is it possible? I'm just a humble layout maker dependent on the content provided by others. So no, I can't but others might be able to.

A similar comment to yours was made in Post #2673, here:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?109038-Model-Railroadz/page179

I'll experiment to see if davric's suggestion provides a better solution.

Phil.

philskene said:

stouthm --

Is it possible? I'm just a humble layout maker dependent on the content provided by others. So no, I can't but others might be able to.

A similar comment to yours was made in Post #2673, here:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?109038-Model-Railroadz/page179

I'll experiment to see if davric's suggestion provides a better solution.

Phil.

Click to expand...

good way to get variation is to take two of those rock splines that are similar and then overlay them onto each other, with spline points that are alternating so they don't attach themselves to each other. , move each one slightly and they will provide some variation.
credit must go to Pencil 42 for the original splines, I just gussied some of them up a bit.
I have now made about another 200 and most are better then those originals, they will all come when the uintah is completed. Finding the right rock faces is the hard bit as many look terrible when repeated as a spline .

" ... better then those originals ... ."

Two hundred more? Lots better? Wow -- that must have been a tremendous effort. Should I wait until the new ones are available?

Phil I'd suggest you muddle on, perfecting your skills. BTW I can not take any credit for the scene posted above by euromodeller, that is all Jango, I just stuck a train on it. It does point out a technique that might benefit your route. Using fill to bridge the gaps in the rock spline rather than just trestle. Using similar cliff splines above the track might be effective too.

If cliff splines were made as roads, obviously with no traffic then with a bit of careful texturing so they merge at the ends seamlessly one could use separate splines that will join together, just an outside the box thought!

Or better use / adapt the method Deane used for random fence posts, see here http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/..._Fence_Spline_Featuring_LOD_and_Random_Meshes

dangavel said:

good way to get variation is to take two of those rock splines that are similar and then overlay them onto each other, with spline points that are alternating so they don't attach themselves to each other. , move each one slightly and they will provide some variation.

I have now made about another 200 and most are better then those originals, they will all come when the uintah is completed. Finding the right rock faces is the hard bit as many look terrible when repeated as a spline .

Click to expand...

Possible limitations with overlapping splines are texture flickering and texture discontinuities where the splines intersect. And along any given section of track, it’s probably limited to mixing just 2 splines.

As clam1952 suggested, you can reduce the repetition at source by building randomised splines. The best I’ve been able to do, so far, is to randomise 4 different elements in one spline. The most recent example of such a spline is “AASHTO 24ft patches 01” which is on the DLS as KUID:68213:37200. It’s not a cliff, but does have a config you could adapt. It has no actual LOD to complicate things, so the config structure that controls the randomness is fairly simple to understand. Of course, you as creator would need to make sure that 4 different cliff mesh elements (and their textures) tile seamlessly with each other for it to look effective.

Even with 4 random elements, my experience with these splines is that some repetition is inevitable. We can only try to reduce it.

.

I thought about making randomized versions of this spine when I did the first one. However, the complexity of getting the different textures to tile properly with themselves and each other; along with all the LODs across the 10? different versions of the spline (and doing so in an optimized manner) proved to be too much; I likely still wouldn't have finished it. Even then, you'd still have repetition at the ends of each segment. Maybe someday.....

Curtis

Dinorius_Redundicus said:

Possible limitations with overlapping splines are texture flickering and texture discontinuities where the splines intersect. And along any given section of track, it’s probably limited to mixing just 2 splines

.

Click to expand...

I've not noticed any flickering so far.where the splines join its best to not join them via spline points but just overlap and blend.
the reason I've made so many of these splines is to have variation , it helps if you have a number of different very large images, when I do , I make 1024 x 512 selections close to each other, make slight variations in color, make a series of splines with slight differences , try to make them seamless , then overlap and blend, use terrain tool to extrude earth over sections here and there where possible .i also am using scottish's excellent blasted rock cliffs, which aren't splines but which have 3 differing sizes and are easy to reskin.
the blander the rock the better, if it has any really noticeable features it empathizes the repetition.
the biggest issue when you have this many splines is remembering which one to use , I've now coded them via mileposts and places, but its still hard to organize, pick lists are useful and also just making a few rather then the entire -10-40 /10-40 series, makes things less complex.
I tend to use the + flat items a lot more then the minus.
But you are right that there is always going to be some repetition , its impossible on a large route not to use items more than once, we cant ape nature as we do not have the ability produce almost infinite variations in shape and color.

Pencil42 said:

I thought about making randomized versions of this spine when I did the first one. However, the complexity of getting the different textures to tile properly with themselves and each other; along with all the LODs across the 10? different versions of the spline (and doing so in an optimized manner) proved to be too much; I likely still wouldn't have finished it. Even then, you'd still have repetition at the ends of each segment. Maybe someday.....

Curtis

Click to expand...

Its a very useful spline, the only change I can think of is making a variation with the top being narrower as when it has to curve tightly there are problems with the top sticking up at weird angles. Clams cliffs are also very useful and I am most grateful to all of you for making these.
willem2 made some nice cuttings and ledges but they need updating as they look a bit chunky in TANE .
overall its an area in which we could do with more models , the ones we have are great but on big routes they do become repetitive.
GMAN is making straight sided gilsonite trenches which can be adapted to become narrow cuttings such as seen in the Durango and Silverton near Rockwood and if he is amenable I'll ask him to try to make some ledge variations.

I actually thought on the curved section of track on the cliff face in the screen shotz that the rock ledge looked quite reasonable. However, on a longer straight section the repetitions are very noticeable. It don't look too good. In fact it looks 'orrible.

So, to provide variation I've:
Made one version with a mesh length of 40 (as in the original), a second with a mesh length of 65 and a third with a mesh length 90.
The 40 and 90 use the original mesh library. The 65 uses a modified version of the mesh library where the tga files have been flipped horizontally.

Linking all three mesh lengths together in a semi-random order provides a considerable improvement.

I'll upload all three to the Download Station soon as I'm eager to continue work on the model layout.

However, if any of you talented and knowledgeable creative geniuses are willing to fill the gap that presently exists when laying track along mountain faces in rugged terrain ... .

The "specification" might be:
The same textures as the one I've used ('cause I've managed to find matching rock, sand and grass textures for the terra-forming);
Similar height and width;
A smooth surface for the track base (so I don't have to use trestles);
A non-repetitive face;
Spline height 0 is the same as track height 0 (this makes it easier to set the rock ledge spline height to height of the track).

Any takers? Am I asking too much? Please.

Phil

Phil

We solved the problem about 10-12 years back to provide the road/track laid end to end when we built the 'Side of a mountain' Darjeeling Himalayan Railway route. We ended up with about 170 spline units to cover all the variations needed to cover the variations on the real thing. I suggest that you investigate this content, it's on the DLS. If the modules can be retextured and used for your project, you are welcome to reskin or modify them. In any case you will see how we handled the problem. About 50 miles of continuous road with the rail spline laid on top, exactly what you are looking for.

PeterPM