Track direction

greymaster

New member
In TANE SP2 route, I have placed track direction markers to control direction on a reversing loop, but AI trains run against them as if they were not there. However on my test track they seem to work fine. Anyone else having this problem ? Thanks.
 
It's a bug in T:ANE SP2 HF1 with drivers ignoring signals, track marks, and direction markers.
 
Have you tried placing a track direction marker on the undesired switch leg, with it's pointy end facing towards the oncoming loco, blocking its path, so it takes a different path, than the pointy directional marker path ?

I use track direction markers as "Blockers" pointing at undesired traffic
 
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It's a bug in T:ANE SP2 HF1 with drivers ignoring signals, track marks, and direction markers.

For me, the track mark ignoring problem is very random, so you can't be sure if it will obey or ignore, but what is more troublesome is that the frequency of ignoring industries and passenger enabled stations is really bad, so my route is unplayable. Fortunately I have a TS12 version and I play with it, and there it works like a clock. TS12 49922 really is not so bad as it was portrayed when TANE was "introduced".
 
Track dir. markers

Have you tried placing a track direction marker on the undesired switch leg, with it's pointy end facing towards the oncoming loco, blocking its path, so it takes a different path, than the pointy directional marker path ?

I use track direction markers as "Blockers" pointing at undesired traffic

Hi. I use track direction marker the same way you have. When using them at turnouts in order to force the loco to take the unblocked path, the AI fails; a message is displayed saying "a direction marker ahead is facing against us". After a few seconds the AI gives up and quits. It is disheartening to invest the time building a large route only to have these types of functions, which have been around for years, FAIL. Also, I have observed that often the AI ignores trackmarks and sometimes cannot FIND a trackmark. I had no problems like this in TR2009 years ago, running multiple trains on single track, with routine AI passing/runaround meets. Anyway, thanks for the help.
 
Track dir. marker

Impossible to answer this question without knowing a lot more details, particularly what is different between you test track and your reversing loop track.

In the meantime, you might take a look at a couple of threads (very long threads) on this and similar issues.

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?142780-AI-Drivers-act-different-now

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?142679-TANE-Track-direction-is-it-still-important

My test track is a short length of straight track on a single grid section, using the same type of MP track as on my route. The reverse loop is for returning a tram back to its starting station so that it does not run backward. Nothing complicated on my route, it is basically scenic with no operating industries. I will check the threads you referenced, and thank you for the help.
 
My test track is a short length of straight track on a single grid section, using the same type of MP track as on my route. The reverse loop is for returning a tram back to its starting station so that it does not run backward. Nothing complicated on my route, it is basically scenic with no operating industries. I will check the threads you referenced, and thank you for the help.

Your trams should work fine. I have a route setup just like this to run a complete transit system. In TS12 and earlier T:ANE versions, the AI would drive for hours and hours and I would actually quit the route operations before I ran into any issues.

What might help is a track marks at the beginning, in the middle, and at the of the loop to force the AI to take the path. I use this method to turn trains around at the end of a route with a holding yard. The problem, however, is T:ANE the SP2 HF1, the operation is unpredictable and the AI can and will ignore signals, track marks and direction marks making the whole operation a frustrating mess. If you do use this method, test it thoroughly including flipping switch levers against the driver path. One of the issues we discovered is the AI will appear to work fine if the path is set for them, but the commands won't disappear from the queue.
 
Track dir. markers

Your trams should work fine. I have a route setup just like this to run a complete transit system. In TS12 and earlier T:ANE versions, the AI would drive for hours and hours and I would actually quit the route operations before I ran into any issues.

What might help is a track marks at the beginning, in the middle, and at the of the loop to force the AI to take the path. I use this method to turn trains around at the end of a route with a holding yard. The problem, however, is T:ANE the SP2 HF1, the operation is unpredictable and the AI can and will ignore signals, track marks and direction marks making the whole operation a frustrating mess. If you do use this method, test it thoroughly including flipping switch levers against the driver path. One of the issues we discovered is the AI will appear to work fine if the path is set for them, but the commands won't disappear from the queue.

I tried your suggestion and placed additional trackmarkers. Nothing works. The loco travels thru the reversing loop until it comes to the junction, and absolutely refuses to cross the junction to exit the loop. Instead it stops and reverses to return to the start point. It seems that no attention has been paid to the AI problems in Trainz. Thanks for the help.
 
After placing the trackmarks, did you add "Drive Via Trackmark <name of trackmark1>","Drive Via Trackmark <name of trackmark2>", "Drive Via Trackmark <name of trackmark3>" commands to the driver command list? Alternatively, you can also use "Navigate Via Trackmark <name of trackmark1>" etc.
 
I have experimented and found this works for me, (but other people tell me i'm crazy), but anyway....

The direction of the track is more important than the direction marker. Try deleting each track marker and then replace it. Does it place in the direction you thought it should? If not, delete the track section, and replace it in the direction you want the track to be. Then place a track direction marker on it and confirm the track is in the correct direction. Simply rotating the direction marker does nothing for me, I use it only to visually confirm the direction of the track.

Also, some track objects currupt the track direction, See HERE. Some XING's, bridges, especially double track assets really mess things up. I placed a double track bridge the other day and it literally changed the track direction (rotated) for 3 spline joints in both directions.

More conversation is HERE, but I was told my 'theory' was incorrect about the track direction. I still use the suggestions above and it fixes my AI issues.
 
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I have experimented and found this works for me, (but other people tell me i'm crazy), but anyway....

The direction of the track is more important than the direction marker.

Those "other people" are right :). As I pointed out in my experiments conducted on this very vexing question in the thread you referenced in your post. the direction that a track is laid will have an effect on the orientation of signals, track buffers, and the traffic direction of locos when they are added to the track.

This post (https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...n-is-it-still-important&p=1641528#post1641528) confirms that but it has no other effect.

AI trains are not affected by the direction of track laying as shown in the post https://forums.auran.com/trainz/sho...n-is-it-still-important&p=1641601#post1641601.
 
TRACK DIR. MARKERS

I have experimented and found this works for me, (but other people tell me i'm crazy), but anyway....

The direction of the track is more important than the direction marker. Try deleting each track marker and then replace it. Does it place in the direction you thought it should? If not, delete the track section, and replace it in the direction you want the track to be. Then place a track direction marker on it and confirm the track is in the correct direction. Simply rotating the direction marker does nothing for me, I use it only to visually confirm the direction of the track.

Also, some track objects currupt the track direction, See HERE. Some XING's, bridges, especially double track assets really mess things up. I placed a double track bridge the other day and it literally changed the track direction (rotated) for 3 spline joints in both directions.

More conversation is HERE, but I was told my 'theory' was incorrect about the track direction. I still use the suggestions above and it fixes my AI issues.

*** MY SINCERE THANKS to everybody for allc the helpful suggestions. But it is obvious that there are AI issues that need to be fixed by the product designers. As long as a route is a simple point-to-point or oval, AI operates fairly well. But if you add in things like reverse loops, direction markers, and trackmarks located on reverse loops, the AI will randomly fail. So until the bugs get fixed, I'll just have to keep it simple. See you on the high iron, and thanks again ! ;)
 
*** MY SINCERE THANKS to everybody for allc the helpful suggestions. But it is obvious that there are AI issues that need to be fixed by the product designers. As long as a route is a simple point-to-point or oval, AI operates fairly well. But if you add in things like reverse loops, direction markers, and trackmarks located on reverse loops, the AI will randomly fail. So until the bugs get fixed, I'll just have to keep it simple. See you on the high iron, and thanks again ! ;)

KISS is actually the best theory when it comes to the AI drivers and has been since day one. As you gain experience with drivers and routes, you'll begin to think and anticipate how the AI may act while building your routes. One of the things, which I think applies here, is the distance between two points. The AI may appear to take the longest way between two points, but actually it's the shortest and may include a trip through the yard or industry to get to the destination. When the AI are working properly, the judicial use of track marks and direction markers can be used to guide the AI drivers to their destinations usually without too many problems.

With that said you may want to increase size of your turn loops. There's a possibility that the AI are seeing their destination point too soon and navigating to that instead of using the intermediate track marks and adjusting the loop a tiny bit can make the difference.
 
I think Phil should weigh-in on this!

1
In TANE SP2 route, I have placed track direction markers to control direction on a reversing loop, but AI trains run against them as if they were not there. However on my test track they seem to work fine. Anyone else having this problem ? Thanks.

I spent a lot of time on Industrail and I know he uses his techniques on some of his smaller basement routes.

In Industrail, he had semi-dedicated AI track that would merge and diverge to an from our player tracks and I don't remember ever having problems with lost AI. I think it was mostly the way he pointed the turn-outs so as to funnel the AI traffic back on to the special AI tracks.

Recently I have done a lot of work with the Summer Lake Track route and I thought the author had done a great job of placing directional markers every where but there were still a couple places where AI seemed to get stuck. One was on a sweeping bend where the AI always wanted to go through a small yard, I assume because it thought it was taking a short cut cause the yard was on the inside of the bend but then I think because I left a turn-out thrown the wrong way and the AI don't always change path for themselves it would get stuck there.

Another seemed to get stuck when it tried to run around a passenger train on a lay-over at a station and the problem seemed to be that AI would try to take the straight ahead turn-out direction which had a short track section with a end bumper on it and I think it speaks to the tendency of AI to prefer the straight rather than the diverging path even though that is where it needs to go.

I can't say I think this is your answer because I just updated to SP 2 and maybe something has actually changed for the worst but people have always complained about unruly AI.

Good Luck

Wild Willy the Wacko
 
Recently I have done a lot of work with the Summer Lake Track route and I thought the author had done a great job of placing directional markers every where but there were still a couple places where AI seemed to get stuck. One was on a sweeping bend where the AI always wanted to go through a small yard, I assume because it thought it was taking a short cut cause the yard was on the inside of the bend but then I think because I left a turn-out thrown the wrong way and the AI don't always change path for themselves it would get stuck there.

Priority markers (like purple trackmarks - <kuid:-3:10190> AI Routing Priority Marker which is Built-in to TANE) have always been used to solve that issue.
  1. You assign your AI train with a specific Train Priority number (1 - 3) (you will find this in the Loco Properties).
  2. Place a Priority Marker on the track that you do NOT want the AI to use and give it a value (1 - 3) that is NOT the same as the AI train.
 
Let me understand this: A train set to 1 priority will obey markers set for 1 and so on. Now you save the session. When you open it again, the locos have defaulted to priority 2 ! Same if you send the consist to a portal. What comes out is set to default. Are we missing something here?
 
I've had problems in the past with a reverse loop not switching the junction for the loop exit path. I fiddled around with it and it finally worked. It was months ago, so I don't remember what I did.


So, I set up a test on a new empty baseboard. I carefully laid track from the left and into a counter-clockwise direction and formed a junction. I placed TM's, a buffer and a loco. I assigned the AI Driver: Drive Via TM LoopEntry; Drive Via TM Loop Exit; Drive To TM Loop End.

35330d04d3eba5e354785dce9b7cc62e.jpg



QuickDrive. The loco incorrectly went to the clock-wise direction (up). I tried it with the beginning orientation of the junction to the right (down in the pic). No difference.


I placed a MU on the track and a dummy building to show where it was.

4b6133ac56d0155a1d61217de332fb4f.jpg


I removed the Drive Via TM Loop Entry and replaced it with Navigate to MU.

QuickDrive.

The junction immediately switched to the lower path. The loco went to the MU and continued counter-clockwise to TM Loop Exit. The AI set the junction to allow the loco to exit and go to TM LoopEnd.


OK Maybe a fluke.


I repeated the TM only process from scratch.
The only difference was this time,after setting the Driver Commands, I exited Trainz completely. Went back into Trainz, Drive Session. The loco took the wrong path.

Quick Drive from Edit Session and Drive Session from the Menus both took the same wrong path.

I tried DriveTO TM Loop Entry. Loco still goes the wrong way.

I added a WaitFor 20 Seconds as the first command. Loco still goes the wrong way.


I again added a MU and replaced DriveTo LoopEntry with Navigate to MU. It worked.

Now it gets weirder. I went back into Driver Commands. I deleted the NavigateTO MU. I added back the DriveVia TM LoopEntry. It worked! Just the presence of the MultiIndustry New changed (in this case - corrected) the behavior of the AI.

It works regardless of the starting orientation of the junction.


GreyMaster,
Try sticking a MultiIndustry New in your loop where I did in the pics. You don't even have to configure it to Produce/Consume anything. You don't even have to drive to it.

Let me know if it works for you.​




This should be easy for N3V to duplicate and, hopefully, fix.


TANE 90945 – Tane Trk Oak - Region USA - CSX Stealth
 
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