Should N3V consign Trainz to the public domain?

My anti-TANE activitie is a Lockheed Martin flight simulator. Airports all over the world, real weather (N3V note), ATC, and Piper Cub thru 747 very real aircraft. Scenery is all computer generated but roads are very accurate with the landscape very close for VFR. Or, you can download photographic landscapes. I have the USA state of Pennsylvania with extra resolution for the Pittsburgh area where I can see my house. There are for purchase extra detailed regions and airports. The purchased airports are photographs with custom buildings. At $30 each flying can get expensive or I could get a couple of gallons/liters of gas for a rental if I had a license.

Despite spending most disposable $$$ on the flight stuff I spend the most time on TANE. I can do more TO TANE. If it ended up on SourceForge that might not continue.
Dick
 
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As a long time user, I can tell you why there are issues with N3V. It's both its strength and weakness which has allowed us to support this for as long as so many of us had. It's called LEGACY support.

I'll be the first to tell you that when TANE was announced I had hoped that none of the old content was supported. Not because I thought it was bad but because a lot of it is broken and it was time to have a lot of things updated for the better. I recently purchased TANE SP2 and I look forward to getting back into the community in some way but it's been this community that has made Trainz what it is. N3V has been fairly supportive of us which makes a huge part of this game pretty public vs something like Train Sim World or Train Sim 201X; both of which I like but are nowhere near on the same level as what WE have made Trainz as a community.

If you're not good at building trains you can do routes. Not interested in doing either of those, build a script. Don't like that? Drive a route. So much you can do to contribute. Trainz certainly needs an overhaul, download station I'm looking at you, but it's great because the developer supports the users by making things easier.
 
Whenever I want a break from route building there are plenty of other things to do including (and Bill will like this one) a rather neat ATC programme on the Android. I haven't killed anyone... yet. But it's quite zen and engages your brain in spatial awareness and forward planning.

AAAHHH, we all get hooked on those lightweight Android or IOS gaming apps eventually Vern (LOL). Actually when Trainz occasionally gets the better of anyone it's not a bad idea to take a step back and do some casual gaming on those two platforms. Anyone who has a mid range phone can play the vast majority of the games on the play store with many of the farm simulator apps etc being really funny.

At the moment I am still into Infinite Flight and an app that visually creates your own Android apps by a Lego type system with the real Java code being written in the background as you lock the blocks together. It's very clever and written by a couple of India based youngsters.

Of coarse we all eventually come back to Trainz but I find I am much refreshed after playing some casual gaming for a time.
Bill
 
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I was very surprised to find out that that Civilization VI has been release for the iPad.

There is also a rumour going round Macland that universal apps may soon be a thing, write one app that will work on iPhone, iPad, TVos and Mac computers. I guess that makes sense of Apple's Metal strategy.
 
In this case the investment is emotional, so when the realisation finally comes that the 'costs' are sunk and not recoverable there is an outburst of anger. The lashing out is typically directed at the object, not at their own behaviour, because recognising that would be to admit their irrationality. The result is that the accusations and blaming are often just as irrational as the original behaviour. That's why some of the most vocal departures are from the oldest supporters.

Wow. Sage stuff right there. I must have gone full irrational when TRS2006 came out... :D
 
Wow. Sage stuff right there. I must have gone full irrational when TRS2006 came out... :D
'Twould be, if it were applicable in this case. I fail to see how any of us have invested all that much. As I stated earlier, I have spent thousands on software that has provided me far less satisfaction and enjoyment than T:ANE; in fact, I could purchase just about all payware out there and still have to stretch to pay as much. Yes, I upgraded my desktop system, but only to the best business-level Dell available at Costco, which has been sufficient to do everything that T:ANE demands, and still runs at full settings with acceptable frame rates.

Unless one were a Kickstarter with very high hopes, I fail to see how it can be justified to lash out so strongly against N3V.

Merry Christmas everyone!
 
I fail to see how any of us have invested all that much. As I stated earlier, I have spent thousands on software

Joel, investment is not limited to dollars. Many people have made huge investments of time, effort, skill and emotion into the Trainz franchise over many years. Asset creators, content developers, code developers, script creators, beta testers and community support to simply name a few, as well as those who made/make a living out of the product at Auran/N3V. It would be fair to say that to them, any money spent is only a small or even irrelevant part of their investment in Trainz.

BTW, Dick, I love your avatar... :)
 
Joel, investment is not limited to dollars. Many people have made huge investments of time, effort, skill and emotion into the Trainz franchise over many years...
Sorry, ain't buyin' it. Many, if not most, of those who are really that invested are actually creating payware that is sold on N3V's storefront. I don't hear them whining. Most of 'em are working overtime to make the future of Trainz successful, and by the look of the T:ANE screenshots thread, it's looking great. In fact, it came as quite a surprise to me to even see the OP post, since most of the kerfuffle had died down to a significant extent.

The Grinch showed up in this thread, and that's about it...
 
Sorry, ain't buyin' it. Many, if not most, of those who are really that invested are actually creating payware that is sold on N3V's storefront. I don't hear them whining. Most of 'em are working overtime to make the future of Trainz successful, and by the look of the T:ANE screenshots thread, it's looking great. In fact, it came as quite a surprise to me to even see the OP post, since most of the kerfuffle had died down to a significant extent.

The Grinch showed up in this thread, and that's about it...

So you're saying the time and effort spent by many freeware content creators doesn't matter. Thank you for the compliment.

I do understand that for many Americans if you haven't paid for it it can't be worth anything but for other prats of the world and even for a few Americans the freeware is built to an acceptable standard.

Cheerio John
 
You don't measure investment in just dollars spent or earned. If something is a hobby then personal enjoyment is far more important. If that hobby is expensive, and Trainz is not expensive, then you moderate or "ration" your involvement but still find ways to enjoy it. There are plenty of people on modest incomes who find and restore old cars not for the financial returns but for the enjoyment. Many of them could not even begin to tell you how much money, time and effort they have invested.

You can find plenty of examples of high quality routes on the DLS that are as good or better than those on the DLC. I recently bought "Coal Country" and find it a very well crafted route but I do question some of the choices the creators made (billboard trees, non-procedural tracks, etc). These choices may have been made for commercial reasons (faster development time, ability to run on low end computers, etc) to maximize their market return. Those are choices that freeware creators are not required to make but their investment in time and effort can often be far greater.

Some freeware routes have taken years of time investment. How do you quantify that in dollar terms?
 
I apologize in advance for using what may be old fashioned terminology.

Is it now the time to consign Trainz to the public domain i.e. make it shareware or open source, in essence whatever the destiny of failed commercial or start up software programs or apps now become?

I think so purely on the grounds of its lack of playability and enjoyment and its countless problems that only the 'computer geek' can get to grips with.

I believe that there is a NEXT iteration of the never ending problems and strange nuances of the Trainz saga that will satisfy the computer geeks but make it more of a problem for those that wish to just have a playable, without problems, railway simulator game - 'game' being the significant word!

Sorry for the rant, but that's how Trainz is becoming, an exercise in computer programming for all users at all levels!

Rob.

Honestly, if I were the developer of this game I would say to you "Delete my product off your hard disk, take your full money refund, and don't ever buy my products again."

The Trainz team as you can see on their news blog is spending much time developing the game and making it better. Much time is being spent on improving graphics rendering. Sure, gameplay might be taking a back seat for now, but is it really bad? Not in my eyes, it's perfectly usable. The surveyor is a bit clunky but alas a minor gripe for a massive railway simulation platform.

Unfortunately you should have known what you were purchasing is technically not a game in and of its self. If you wanted that you should have bought Dovetails Train Sim World.

What you have on your computer is a stunning powerhouse of railway simulation engine. It's not a matter of what can it do for you but what you can do with it.

That said, ranting like this on the forum isn't going to get you any useful attention. If you want a refund or support contact the support ticketing service.
 
Honestly, if I were the developer of this game I would say to you "Delete my product off your hard disk, take your full money refund, and don't ever buy my products again."

The Trainz team as you can see on their news blog is spending much time developing the game and making it better. Much time is being spent on improving graphics rendering. Sure, gameplay might be taking a back seat for now, but is it really bad? Not in my eyes, it's perfectly usable. The surveyor is a bit clunky but alas a minor gripe for a massive railway simulation platform.

Unfortunately you should have known what you were purchasing is technically not a game in and of its self. If you wanted that you should have bought Dovetails Train Sim World.

What you have on your computer is a stunning powerhouse of railway simulation engine. It's not a matter of what can it do for you but what you can do with it.

That said, ranting like this on the forum isn't going to get you any useful attention. If you want a refund or support contact the support ticketing service.

Strangely enough Robd is part of the group that makes TANE what it is. He's very good on the research side and in identifying problems. I seem to recall the duchess was reworked after he identified problems with it. He has also worked with members of Trainz-carriage-wagon-works to create content and you'll find his high quality work on the DLS.

I know I occasionally get frustrated by strange things happening or not happening in TANE from time to time. I think we all get off days occasionally and hopefully he'll get a creative urge again. I hope so as I rather like the carriages he has produced and hope for a few more.

Cheerio John
 
Sorry, ain't buyin' it. Many, if not most, of those who are really that invested are actually creating payware that is sold on N3V's storefront.
No-one suggested that all those with an investment in the product would react like that. It's only the case when people realize they have been sucked in by their own irrational behavior in investing more and more in something that they are unable to get value from.

Those who are happy with the results of their 'investment' aren't going to react like that, even if they lose interest and move on.
 
You don't measure investment in just dollars spent or earned. If something is a hobby then personal enjoyment is far more important. If that hobby is expensive, and Trainz is not expensive, then you moderate or "ration" your involvement but still find ways to enjoy it. There are plenty of people on modest incomes who find and restore old cars not for the financial returns but for the enjoyment. Many of them could not even begin to tell you how much money, time and effort they have invested.

You can find plenty of examples of high quality routes on the DLS that are as good or better than those on the DLC. I recently bought "Coal Country" and find it a very well crafted route but I do question some of the choices the creators made (billboard trees, non-procedural tracks, etc). These choices may have been made for commercial reasons (faster development time, ability to run on low end computers, etc) to maximize their market return. Those are choices that freeware creators are not required to make but their investment in time and effort can often be far greater.

Some freeware routes have taken years of time investment. How do you quantify that in dollar terms?

Out of all the hobbies I have "invested heavily in", Trainz is the least expensive even with countless DLC, Jointed Rail routes and content, and other third-party content, and this doesn't include the time investment put in for testing routes and beta testing Trainz versions over the past 14 years of using the program. If I were a fulltime employee, I would have been paid aplenty for my time in the program, but being a time waster, as some people refer to hobbies as, it's for the fun of it.

If people were to see what I've spent over the years on severe storm chasing at 30K in travel expenses, and my keyboard instruments have run about the same at 30K, not counting countless lessons and even a year in college towards a BA in Music, they'd have me put in the nuthouse with a straight jacket decades ago. But if it wasn't for hobbies, which I think define our being and allow us to express ourselves and escape from life, we'd also all be in the nuthouse since hobbies take our minds away from the horrible world we live in, as well as help us face every day with strength and determination needed to get through the weeks and days, and give us something else to look forward to beside work and chores.

Anyway back to the original statement by the OP, which we've strayed some distance from, I still feel that this program would be relegated to the likes of Softpedia with older out-of-date programs with no support and no development. Without the financial backing and research, we wouldn't even have what we have today in T:ANE as much as people knock it. With continued financial support, the developers are making some rather interesting progress with the new graphics capabilities, which will make T:ANE and Trainz in general a far more superior product.

We do, however, have to keep in mind that this new technology comes at a price in terms of hardware requirements and software complexity, but given the right hardware and with proper tools, there's no reason why people can't learn to make use of the new stuff once it's available. Like all versions of Trainz, I am sure there will be that backwards compatibility there which will allow earlier assets to be used, however, like all older assets they won't be able to make use of the newer technology without rework by the authors.

The future of Trainz, to some of us, is a painful one. We're all tired of repairing content which we've had installed for years without errors only to find the next version brings up errors which were unknown to us and want all our content from 10 years ago, and even 15 years ago, to look perfect and work the same without errors as the new content does. The stricter error checking has come a long way to make the program more reliable, and it will still have an even longer way to go to make it even more reliable as time goes on. This doesn't mean the program is not without its share of bugs, but as I've said before compared to some really expensive business software, found in corporations, this program does is a lot more stable with far less support.

Do we let go all those assets we've gathered over the years, and move forward, or do we continue to repair and hope our old stuff still works? The choice is ours here, and as a community we have shaped what Trainz does more than we think. If we are truly concerned about lack of new assets, we should all, including myself, take up the gauntlet and start creating assets for the newer version just as the original Trainz pioneers did over 15 years ago.
 
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In regard to the opening poster to this thread stating as he did to make a "big bang" on leaving I do not feel will be the case...Bill

Sorry, I've not read this thread for a few days, I've been a bit poorly but now getting better.

What is this 'big bang' I'm leaving crap all about? If you've all read the opening post and understand it then you'll find no mention of such words!

It's interesting to note how threads can go awry from their original meanings/themes just on the whim of the comments from a few!

To get back on topic, I only suggested that Trainz should be put in to the public domain, granted, I did say open source but I was wrong about that and have subsequently apologized for that, may I suggest that you all read through the entire thread!

I'm totally surprised by the bile in some of the replies my suggestion has generated!

Rob.
 
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Strangely enough Robd is part of the group that makes TANE what it is. He's very good on the research side and in identifying problems. I seem to recall the duchess was reworked after he identified problems with it. He has also worked with members of Trainz-carriage-wagon-works to create content and you'll find his high quality work on the DLS.

I know I occasionally get frustrated by strange things happening or not happening in TANE from time to time. I think we all get off days occasionally and hopefully he'll get a creative urge again. I hope so as I rather like the carriages he has produced and hope for a few more.

Cheerio John

Thank you for those kind words, John. Many folk post their self important opinions in these in forums but don't contribute one iota to Trainz - not even a screenshot!

Rob.
 
I'm totally surprised by the bile in some of replies my suggestion has generated!Rob.

That is because Trainz is a hobby, a sacred cow to many posters, and "not to be trifled with".

I, for one, appreciated that your OP was an "opinion piece" although as you yourself acknowledged, not as well thought out or as reasoned as it should have been.

Certainly from my experience, turning any software into "public domain" means the end of all real development and support. We would all have to move on to the "next (no pun) best thing" and eventually, it could all happen again.

Since Christmas here is nearly 8 hours old, Happy Christmas.
 
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