Amtrak Train Derails on Highway Bridge in Washington State

On US roadways there are large reflective metal speed reduction signs displaying a numeral speed limit ... sometimes there are a series of large reflective metal chevrons showing a R or L curve ... Are any of these visual warning signs "Ever" implemented on US RR's ... as this train is suspected of doing 80mph, on a 30mph curve, with a trainee riding along "observing" in the cab ... Are engineers only running by their seat of their pants, relying only on "feel", or instinct, or previous mental recall, of the route, trusting that they "might know", or "might not know", a curve, or speed restriction may be ahead ? Sounds like the case of Frankford Junction Phila PA Amtrak wreck all over again

cascaderailroad said:

On US roadways there are large reflective metal speed reduction signs displaying a numeral speed limit ... sometimes there are a series of large reflective metal chevrons showing a R or L curve ... Are any of these visual warning signs "Ever" implemented on US RR's ... as this train is suspected of doing 80mph, on a 30mph curve, with a trainee riding along "observing" in the cab ... Are engineers only running by their seat of their pants, relying only on "feel", or instinct, or previous mental recall, of the route, trusting that they "might know", or "might not know", a curve, or speed restriction may be ahead ? Sounds like the case of Frankford Junction Phila PA Amtrak wreck all over again

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Different railroads have different speed limit signs. Engineers (and Cunductors) are trained to know the signs they'll be operating with. In general (they're may be some old ones kicking around, not in this crash however) they are made of a retro-reflective material.

Here is the signs indicating the speed of the curve taken around the time of the crash.

(Picture by KING5/NBC news.)

"T" is the speed for Tilt/Talgo trains.
"P" is the speed for Passenger trains.
These are the standard BNSF speed limit signs.

peter

cascaderailroad said:

On US roadways there are large reflective metal speed reduction signs displaying a numeral speed limit ... sometimes there are a series of large reflective metal chevrons showing a R or L curve ... Are any of these visual warning signs "Ever" implemented on US RR's ... as this train is suspected of doing 80mph, on a 30mph curve, with a trainee riding along "observing" in the cab ... Are engineers only running by their seat of their pants, relying only on "feel", or instinct, or previous mental recall, of the route, trusting that they "might know", or "might not know", a curve, or speed restriction may be ahead ? Sounds like the case of Frankford Junction Phila PA Amtrak wreck all over again

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There are speed limit signs all over the place on our railroads. I am honestly thinking that the engineer did NOT see the speed limit sign and flew around the curve by accident. Also, who was the driver? My point is was it someone who knew the line already or was it someone who was going in blind? I would say there is a good chance it was someone who didn't know the line and that had no idea that curve was to be taken at 30 MPH.

An engineer is supposed to be pre-qualified certified, trained by a senior certified trainee trainer, qualified and certified as knowing all the speed limits and curves of a route, before running a route by himself

PTC was installed ... But was not activated yet

Two of the dead passengers were longtime enthusiastic railfans/train riders

I would imagine 2 signposts, with reflective speed signs, and reflective curve warning chevrons, would cost @ $1,000,000 to install, @ 1000 ft prior to every curve along a route ... allot less cost, than paying lawsuits, and wrongful death judgements

Per a diagram in this a.m.'s Seattle Times, there was in fact a standard speed reduction warning sign about 2 miles before the curve. The 30 speed began right at the end of tangent, based on an accompanying photo. One article relates that there is a long sharp downgrade approaching the curve southbound and testing loco engineers had commented extensively on the difficulty they had in slowing the train. Add to that, we've had a long dry summer here, and our current Wet only began in early November; yesterday was drizzle and mizzle (we have 15 different names [or more] for rain in these parts) so the rail condition was probably outside some of those tests.

In the photo above, it's evident the rail alignment has been shoved around by the forces involved, so we know that is not the shape it was in to begin with.

And I would not put too much faith in off-the-cuff remarks and gossip from anyone. If you watch the videos, the professionals are very choosy about what they relate. Best to wait for the investigation to be completed.

I drive through there several times a year. Glad it wasn't yesterday.

:B~)

Driver was likely distracted and lost his/her situational awareness to the upcoming speed restriction. I think the last half-mile to the speed reduced curve runs downhill through a cut. Maybe he/she was busy texting on the phone. We'll have to wait for the official crash report.

https://archive.fo/6E74K

I certainly hope this wasn't an act of terror.

Really? Terrorists did that back in April!? I had no idea. I doubt it was terrorists that did this though.

Honestly, I think we should just start killing terrorists that act (you know do something), if they don't kill themselves, instead of just arresting them. Do you realise what their religion teaches them!? It is basically convert or DIE!

cascaderailroad said:

An engineer is supposed to be pre-qualified certified, trained by a senior certified trainee trainer, qualified and certified as knowing all the speed limits and curves of a route, before running a route by himself

PTC was installed ... But was not activated yet

Two of the dead passengers were longtime enthusiastic railfans/train riders

I would imagine 2 signposts, with reflective speed signs, and reflective curve warning chevrons, would cost @ $1,000,000 to install, @ 1000 ft prior to every curve along a route ... allot less cost, than paying lawsuits, and wrongful death judgements

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oh yeah? Where did you receive your engineers training at? What railroad did you qualify with?

jkinzel said:

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Absolutely distraction is one of our most-wanted-list priorities at NTSB

See HERE

the train's brakes were eventually engaged automatically, not by the engineer... Wow not good, from the picture this is not a high speed route at all... Who in corporate planed this disaster. I am a pea-on and I could tell you it's not high speed, and we need to wait until it's tested... again Wow, who said let's open this route? Wow

Looking at that curve, it’s no surprise that the train going 80+ miles per hour catapulted onto the freeway.

Stricter speed limits my g.

Thanks for sharing the images and helpful descriptions guys. I heard about it on the radio, but hadn't seen any pictures yet.

Christopher824 said:

Absolutely distraction is one of our most-wanted-list priorities at NTSB

See HERE

the train's brakes were eventually engaged automatically, not by the engineer... Wow not good, from the picture this is not a high speed route at all... Who in corporate planed this disaster. I am a pea-on and I could tell you it's not high speed, and we need to wait until it's tested... again Wow, who said let's open this route? Wow

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It was never billed officially as a "high speed" line. Some news agencies are incorrectly calling it that. The little bit of confusion is that this new route saves time between stations, not because the trains can go faster, but because it's a shorter route.

peter

found this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrCza9iSQw

The best policy for all members of this forum would to wait for the conclusions of the accident investigation team rather than speculating in regard to the cause of the incident. One fact is known that being that the train entered a curve at over 80mph when the maximum speed for that section of the line is 30mph.

In the above, the investigation will focus on how that over speed occurred, being that infrastructure failure, mechanical failure in the train or human failure within the dispatchers or the driver (engineer) in control of the train. When that single or multiple failure is identified, if it is a human failure the root cause of that failure must also be identified.

Many hours will then be spent by way of interviews with the person or persons who may have failed in their workplace duties to identify why that failure occurred. That will involve investigation into such matters as possible financial problems, personal relationship problems, health problems, drug or alcohol abuse problems or any background matter that may have been the cause of an awareness or concentration failure leading to the incident occurring.

The above is known as root cause investigation the object of which is not only to identify the full base reasons for the incident but also more importantly prevent any repetition of a similar incident occurring in the future. The foregoing is always a long drawn out inquiry taking many months to complete and in that the unexpected and unreported is often found to be the root cause of the incident.

By example to the above, a very serious accident involving a rollercoaster two years ago here in the UK was at first reported as being caused by an employee working on the ride releasing a car onto the track while another car was already traveling through the ride which then collided with the newly released one. First reports in the press painted a picture of gross negligence by the employee(s). However after many months of work by the investigation team it was found that the safe working practices laid out by the company management for the operation of the ride could in no way be matched to the throughput of passenger numbers per hour demanded of the employees by that same management during busy periods.

The above became what is known as a landmark judgment by an industrial court when the employees were completely exonerated from liability and full liability for the incident was placed on the directors and senior managers within the company that operated the theme park.

The above demonstrates why awaiting the outcome of an accident investigation should always be first policy following all major incidents.

Bill

Very good advice.

Yes wholbr is very right. This will just drag on as an almost poinless selection of pointless guessing. So how about waiting for the actual investigation as all the thread is doing is conjuring up all sorts of ideas without being able to confirm them!

According to The NTSB, investigators say it went 78 MPH. This closely relates to another Amtrak derailment back in 2015.

Your point being ? I don't understand the vague point behind your broad statement

JTrainz174 said:

According to The NTSB, investigators say it went 78 MPH. This closely relates to another Amtrak derailment back in 2015.

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Do you know how many thousands of train wrecks there have been in the last 100 years; "that closely relates to another (similar) Amtrak derailment" (which all have involved speeding)