Here we go again TRS2018

It also takes a while to get to, well, almost anywhere considering they are based in Australia. My parents got me TS12 for Chritsmas a few years ago but it took a month or two for it to get here. They ordered it a while before Christmas.

MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS said:

It also takes a while to get to, well, almost anywhere considering they are based in Australia. My parents got me TS12 for Chritsmas a few years ago but it took a month or two for it to get here. They ordered it a while before Christmas.

Click to expand...

The problem isn't always the actual air mail shipments, but local mail and international shipping requirements, which means the stuff has to pass through customs, and that can mean delays even if all the paperwork is in order.

(Here's some background info

Many years ago, about a decade ago, I actually shipped equipment, supplies, and other packages worldwide for a company I worked for. Customs is quite picky on how packages are labeled and even if the packages are labeled properly, they can be delayed going in and coming out of countries including our own. In addition to the content and shipping label, there are additional paperwork requirement such as Pro-forma Invoices, SED (Shipper's Export Declarations), Certificates of Origin, special packaging codes, and other things to trip on. For NAFTA there's additional paperwork, even though that was supposed to be easier. It was fun and interesting, but very serious because if I were to mess up, I would face jail time, and not my boss!

As has been stated previously in this thread, each time a new version of Trainz is released some members of this community will see that release as a "threat". The reason for that attitude is often that those persons perceive that an expensive upgrade to their system will in all probability be nessicary or a complete new system will have to be purchased to continue this hobby. It can be argued that the foregoing has always been the case, and that all interest and hobbies call for expenditure over periods of time.

Prior to 2010 I like many upgraded my system to meet each new version as there was little alternative to the Microsoft Windows platform for gaming with the exception of the Apple Mac. However, since the start of this decade the mobile platforms for gaming have entered the market and rapidly expanded with those platforms now taking more than 50% of the total gaming market revenue. Therefore, gamers now have a choice between high end Windows/Apple Mac gaming and the casual gaming experience given by those mobile platforms.

In the above, it is obvious that many with interest in gaming have chosen the mobile platform route as a having a smartphone is considered an essential in these times for such activities as social media, photography, emails, music, texting etc while on the move and casual gaming is also now considered an extension of that. Therefore, choice is now the largest element in gaming and the Windows platform with its PC system is very much in the mix of that user choice.

However, gaming on the mobile platform is rapidly increasing in cost for those who wish for the best experience with their devises. The latest Samsung Galaxy 8 (running on the Android platform) which has been released here in the UK this week is priced at close to one thousand pounds for the 128gb model (1358 USD) which is not to far short of the price of a gaming PC without the monitor. Of course their are those who argue that mobile and PC gaming cannot and should not be compared due to the fact that one is in the main carried out on large static screen systems while the other is carried out in the majority on devises with screens of only six inches but highly mobile. However, those mobile devices now come with OLED displays and hi end processers that make mobile gaming a true pleasure even for simulation and that can be carried out wherever you are.

With all the above i am one who can understand those who do not look forward to the release of the next version of Trainz feeing it will be yet more expenditure if they wish to remain in this hobby, and for those persons alternatives are available in regard to that expenditure. In the foregoing N3V has to come forward regularly with new versions if it is to financially survive into the future. However, telling Trainz users who question those releases to " get of if they do not like the rough ride" as has been expressed in this thread may well only shrink the user base as their are readily available alternative gaming platforms should they decide to take that advise.

Bill

No one forces anyone to "buy the next version" of Trainz. If your computer can't handle the "next" version of Trainz and you can't afford to upgrade your computer, then just stay with your current version of Trainz. Be happy with that, until your in a position to change that.
The problem is, if everyone decides to stay with their "current version of Trainz", N3V goes broke in no time. (If you still want to help N3V with cash-flow & for them to stay in business, then you can help by simply renewing your FCT each year).

I'm sure that N3V knows there's some Trainzers out there that can't afford to buy the latest version of Trainz, or upgrade there PC every 3 or 4 years. That's probably one of the reasons WHY they still allow Trainzers to download content from the Download Station that dates as far back as the 2003/2004 Trainz era, for older versions of Trainz!!!

With a lot of things nowadays, "Standing Still", is going backwards in today's world. The world is an ever evolving one. I'm sure it's starting to spin a bit faster, as one gets a bit older... :hehe:
A lot of companies would go broke if they decided to stay with their "current model", for the next 4 or 5 years. Don't matter whether where talking about new cars, TV's, PC's, Cellphones, games/sims, whatever... Last years model is quickly old hat!!!

As for "get off if they do not like the rough ride" then yes, if they're not happy for whatever reason, instead of continually moaning about it, take a break, find something different for awhile, get a paper run, whatever!!!

N3V's a small company, probably with large overheads. A lot of small companies struggle to keep afloat in today's fast-pace world. Why would N3V be any different. For one, they have had to change their business model to survive. (Just think what there wages bill alone would be each week).

Constructive criticism is great, but I personally would much rather the constant moaners take a break for a while, or find an alternative hobby for a while, rather than have to read a lot of the moaning towards N3V & their products in this forum. They aren't perfect, get over it. TANE isn't perfect yet, get over it!!! One things for sure to me, (because N3V survival depends on it), they're certainly trying their best to get Tane sorted. IMHO, they are nearly there.
What sort of impression do you think the newbie's gets, when they read all the moaning in the forum??? I'm sure it must put some off...

Unfortunately, no matter what some people have in life, they will always view their glass as half empty, rather than half fill... I say, be happy with your lot, no matter what it is. You can always upgrade next year, or the year after...

Wage Facts.
​

​

Full-time earnings
​

Australia

averaged A$78,832 a year in the second quarter of 2016. (Seasonally adjusted wages – Bureau of Statistics.) If overtime and bonuses are included, ​

average Australian

earnings were A$81,947 per annum..

Cheers, Mac...

Foot note; I don't mind so much reading "constructive criticism" from those that put their money where there mouth is and were Kickstarter Supporters. I doubt whether Tane would have come about, if it wasn't for all those Kickstarter Supporters that took a leap of faith...
​

I know that the game is becoming more and more reliant on users having a solid gaming PC but that does not mean that there cannot be a sort of sacrifice or trade-off made for lower-end PC users. Wuality of visuals could be the case here, but N3V would have to develop it in a way that having the (expected?) 'PBR Detail' slider set to low would literally revert the materials closer to the older/current Trainz materials.

The biggest gripe, I believe, comes from TANE not being good enough which can be attributed to the end users' systems. Another personal gripe is that there is not a wide variety of new stock or content. It would be an investment that could make or break N3V's future, to hire a professional 3D modeler/route builder to create a high-demand route and rolling stock with the new materials. Perhaps heavy scripting and functionality to attempt to match the wide variety of functions possible in TSW, being the obvious competitor.

What I don't understand from the complaints over TRS2018, is that N3V are actually giving us something new and exciting here, opposed to smaller and less important updates or features between TS2009, 2010, and 2012. Do you not want new materials and graphics?

The problem is for years the refrain was "We want a new game engine, but N3V will never be able to deliver one" (insert more doom and woe here) but they DID, so now there has to be something, anything else to be gloomy about because it just wouldn't be Trainz otherwise.

Me, I'm going to be gloomy about the lack of simulation features (vacuum brake, proper injectors, dampers, drain cocks) but it won't stop me enjoying what we do have and will get.

Ahh! The mythical TRS2018! Does it actually exist? Folk seem to be holding up its virtues and the promise of a new super trainz sim purely based on hearsay and being defended and praised by many!

Rob.

This thread, which I thought was heading the way of all similar threads, has become a worthwhile discussion. That is encouraging.

From my reading of these threads over the years, I believe that many of the technology complainers have a genuine ignorance of the nature of modern businesses, and businesses in the computer software and gaming world in particular. They have a product which they purchased 2-3 years ago which they are still using on a regular basis and have just learned that the company behind it [has released/is about to release/has "leaked" some details of] a [possible] replacement product that makes their current product obsolete. Worse still, free upgrades and fixes for their current product will cease or have already ceased.

Certainly, the move from TS12 to TANE was the first in the Trainz product line that would have required a hardware upgrade for many, myself included. When I was working I upgraded my computer system about every 3 years but now that I have retired that period has been stretched. Paradoxically, it was during retirement that I purchased my first laptop because I found myself traveling a lot more. Some Trainzers, even amongst those who are fully employed, are on very limited budgets and regular hardware upgrades, even if it is just a new graphics card, are not an option.

EverTrainz, I am not sure that a "compatibility" mode is the way to go. That was tried in an earlier version of Trainz (TRS2009 IIRC) and it was not a success. Many would argue that some of the issues in TANE have been caused by its backward compatibility with older (and sometimes poorly designed) assets.

Robd, your sarcasm knows no bounds. Whatever it is called, the mythical "TS2018", "NEXT" or "Thomas Does Dallas" (a retro movie reference for those too young to know), there will have to be a new Trainz product out and soon(TM) I hope. TANE is now over 2 years old, has only just started to find its feet - time to move on.

pware said:

EverTrainz, I am not sure that a "compatibility" mode is the way to go. That was tried in an earlier version of Trainz (TRS2009 IIRC) and it was not a success. Many would argue that some of the issues in TANE have been caused by its backward compatibility with older (and sometimes poorly designed) assets.

Click to expand...

I agree, but to put out a product that basically cuts out all previous content means it has to have a 'pull' factor to combat that massive 'push' factor. For that, I suggested a commissioned team to create a dazzling route using all the new features with new materials, etc. like TSW has done the new routes. This is only if N3V are focusing on getting up to TSW's level, instead of going at the neck of the manageable TS2017.

Someone said above that no one forces you to buy the next version of Trainz. I actually don't think that is true. N3V, along with everyone that has made the built in content for the games, updates them at some point for a newer one of N3V's games and eventually outdates the older ones and they become faulty. I have found this is VERY true for TRS2006 with the majority of built-in stuff. One example of this is the 3ft gauge shunter from Northbay County and other content. Eventually everyone with TS12 will have to get a newer version of the game because some or all content MAY be faulty due to it just being too old. It may be a couple of years yet but we will still have to get a newer game.

Say what? How are newer versions preventing you playing with what you have? Just because content is updated with new versions, the original object is not changed. If they are on the DLS, they are still available. I still open good old TRS2004 on occasion. Even my UTC and original Trainz are playable if I really feel nostalgic. And sometimes it is nice to be reminded how far Trainz has progressed when the limitations of the earlier versions are experienced. Besides, without any expiring DRM, those early version will continue to work as long as you have a computer that can run them. Naturally if some Windows 20xx doesn't have some feature that those early versions require, you'll have to hope that your then antique computer keeps working.

"I know that the game is becoming more and more reliant on users having a solid gaming PC but that does not mean that there cannot be a sort of sacrifice or trade-off made for lower-end PC users. Wuality of visuals could be the case here, but N3V would have to develop it in a way that having the (expected?) 'PBR Detail' slider set to low would literally revert the materials closer to the older/current Trainz materials."

I'm sure they will have a graphics performance slider in there just as they have now in T:ANE. Setting the shadows to none in T:ANE makes the program look much like TS12 with better features.

MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS said:

Someone said above that no one forces you to buy the next version of Trainz. I actually don't think that is true. N3V, along with everyone that has made the built in content for the games, updates them at some point for a newer one of N3V's games and eventually outdates the older ones and they become faulty. I have found this is VERY true for TRS2006 with the majority of built-in stuff. One example of this is the 3ft shunter from Northbay County. Eventually everyone with TS12 will have to get a newer version of the game. It may be a couple of years yet but we will still have to get a new version.

Click to expand...

Sir, I'm not quite sure I'm following your logic here. TRS2006 built-in content still works perfectly well in TRS2006. TS2012 built-in content still works perfect in TS2012. If your saying that some/alot of your TRS2006 content won't work in TS2012, your correct. Content validation got really tightened up after TS2012 49922. (end of compatibility mode). A lot of the content that was showing only "warnings" in TRS2006, TS2009, TS2010 & TS2012 49922 started showing as "Faulty" in TS2012 SP1 57xxx. As some contents creators put it; "The goal posts got shifted".

Now do I find it frustrating that a lot of that earlier content currently won't work in later versions of Trainz? "Yes I do". I'm grateful for what has already been updated. More will probably be updated and a percentage will never be updated. That's life...

So if your saying that you have to upgrade to the latest version of Trainz, to run the latest versions of content, your correct again. If you can't afford to upgrade, (or your PC isn't cutting the mustard) then just stick with the contents that was made for the version of Trainz you are running. Review things down the track...

Without me trying to appear sarcastic, let me try and give you an example of what I mean; Back in the day, when I still had a full crop of hair, (1990's) MS had Windows 3.1. I still have a version running on an old 486 I've stored. Now for some reason, my MS Office 2016 won't run on my old 486 computer that runs MS 3.1. All my old Windows 3.1 software doesn't seem to want to run on my latest Window10 PC. MS doesn't force you or I to upgrade ever 3-5 years. We upgraded because we wanted to run the latest and keep up with the times. Otherwise we just get left behind.

No difference with Trainz/N3V. If you want to run the latest content, which looks a lot more realistic, runs a lot better, and has a few more bell & whistles, then upgrade. If not, then just stay with whatever you've got and run the contents that was built for that version of Trainz.

Happy Trainzing...

Cheers, Mac...

I am one that believes that N3V/Auran has been very focused on trying to weigh backward-compatibility against evolving technology and capability, and they have done a commendable job in doing so. They have well understood that Trainz by any version name has been bettered by the multitude of user-generated assets. The fact that we all want to keep our toys and reuse them in each newly released software version is to be expected.

On the other hand, when new rendering techniques requiring a massive overhaul of assets too complex to simply add in turn-the-crank fashion, then backward compatibility suffers.

You have to consider the risk to N3V, too. If T:ANE (and NEXT, and ?????) end up on YouTube videos looking like a cheesy 2000-era product because some user refuses to get with the times and upgrade his assets, then it will be tough to sell this program when you have the likes of (enter competitors' flashy 2018-version trains simulator here) available. Few newbies really understand the full power of creation available to the end-user, and even fewer care (at least at first). They want realism that looks like the future, not the present (and certainly not the past!).

T:ANE already suffers both in performance and in appearance due to (bending-over-backward) backward compatibility. I have discovered a vast difference between routes developed to different standards, but this is a risk that N3V is willing to take to remain as compatible as possible with earlier routes and assets.

I am grateful that N3V empowers me to create assets to populate the entire world in my imagination. But just like my computer won't last forever, I can't really expect my assets to last forever either, at least without some major revisions along the way to bring them up to meet the new standards.

pware said:

Some interesting thoughts Phimat. It is probably too early to say that N3V has changed direction from multiplayer surveyor to prettier pictures in their next and apparently highly contentious version. Perhaps they will both be part of that release.

It is a brave punter who would predict that technology has reached a limit. I suspect that VR and holographic technology may be pointers for possible future Trainz graphical developments (or not). Certainly the shift to a 64bit software base has opened up a lot of new possibilities. I don't know if it is too early to start thinking about video quality images in Trainz (as a true sandbox system, not one with very restricted points of view) but that is certainly one of the possibilities for the future. My only worry is how difficult might it be for the average Trainzer to continue being a content creator.

AI (and I don't just mean driver Alister) has largely been in the doldrums since the 1960s but recent advances in computing power and the real possibility of quantum computing have reawakened interest and possibilities there.

Some good food for thought.

Click to expand...

Just got back, so I can now reply to this, a few days late.

The notable thing about VR and holo - not having tried either, mind you - is that they operate more purely in the imagination (there isn't the material bridge to the image). See it in how players want to be part of a movie or active within a favourite game. The appeal of Trainz might well be limited - it could never be immersive enough, it's not that kind of world, like that of Doom, HL or Stalker.

As for AI, I agree, except you have to allow that a different modality is sought this time. What they sought originally was to make the machine intelligent, but discovered - as Russell said of Hegel - that you cannot know anything unless you know everything. Now they merely want machines that act intelligently, where the presiding intelligence is always human. A great failure for science: it means that even the most advanced robot is no different from a hammer or any other tool.

meatloaf747 said:

Sir, I'm not quite sure I'm following your logic here. TRS2006 built-in content still works perfectly well in TRS2006. TS2012 built-in content still works perfect in TS2012. If your saying that some/alot of your TRS2006 content won't work in TS2012, your correct. Content validation got really tightened up after TS2012 49922. (end of compatibility mode). A lot of the content that was showing only "warnings" in TRS2006, TS2009, TS2010 & TS2012 49922 started showing as "Faulty" in TS2012 SP1 57xxx. As some contents creators put it; "The goal posts got shifted".

Now do I find it frustrating that a lot of that earlier content currently won't work in later versions of Trainz? "Yes I do". I'm grateful for what has already been updated. More will probably be updated and a percentage will never be updated. That's life...

So if your saying that you have to upgrade to the latest version of Trainz, to run the latest versions of content, your correct again. If you can't afford to upgrade, (or your PC isn't cutting the mustard) then just stick with the contents that was made for the version of Trainz you are running. Review things down the track...

Without me trying to appear sarcastic, let me try and give you an example of what I mean; Back in the day, when I still had a full crop of hair, (1990's) MS had Windows 3.1. I still have a version running on an old 486 I've stored. Now for some reason, my MS Office 2016 won't run on my old 486 computer that runs MS 3.1. All my old Windows 3.1 software doesn't seem to want to run on my latest Window10 PC. MS doesn't force you or I to upgrade ever 3-5 years. We upgraded because we wanted to run the latest and keep up with the times. Otherwise we just get left behind.

No difference with Trainz/N3V. If you want to run the latest content, which looks a lot more realistic, runs a lot better, and has a few more bell & whistles, then upgrade. If not, then just stay with whatever you've got and run the contents that was built for that version of Trainz.

Happy Trainzing...

Cheers, Mac...

Click to expand...

When Trainz entered its new era with a splashscreen of a steam engine running full tilt away from a modern city, you would wonder just how far forward Trainz has managed to get. The implication here is the mechanical operation (virtual) of a steam engine is more significant than the intelligence evidenced in the signalling and track control, the rudimentary schedulling, and the host of scripts available to us.

In some ways this is the fundamental division in how we view Trainz. The irony is that these outlooks do not involve graphics directly.

meatloaf747 said:

Sir, I'm not quite sure I'm following your logic here. TRS2006 built-in content still works perfectly well in TRS2006. TS2012 built-in content still works perfect in TS2012. If your saying that some/alot of your TRS2006 content won't work in TS2012, your correct. Content validation got really tightened up after TS2012 49922. (end of compatibility mode). A lot of the content that was showing only "warnings" in TRS2006, TS2009, TS2010 & TS2012 49922 started showing as "Faulty" in TS2012 SP1 57xxx. As some contents creators put it; "The goal posts got shifted".

Now do I find it frustrating that a lot of that earlier content currently won't work in later versions of Trainz? "Yes I do". I'm grateful for what has already been updated. More will probably be updated and a percentage will never be updated. That's life...

So if your saying that you have to upgrade to the latest version of Trainz, to run the latest versions of content, your correct again. If you can't afford to upgrade, (or your PC isn't cutting the mustard) then just stick with the contents that was made for the version of Trainz you are running. Review things down the track...

Without me trying to appear sarcastic, let me try and give you an example of what I mean; Back in the day, when I still had a full crop of hair, (1990's) MS had Windows 3.1. I still have a version running on an old 486 I've stored. Now for some reason, my MS Office 2016 won't run on my old 486 computer that runs MS 3.1. All my old Windows 3.1 software doesn't seem to want to run on my latest Window10 PC. MS doesn't force you or I to upgrade ever 3-5 years. We upgraded because we wanted to run the latest and keep up with the times. Otherwise we just get left behind.

No difference with Trainz/N3V. If you want to run the latest content, which looks a lot more realistic, runs a lot better, and has a few more bell & whistles, then upgrade. If not, then just stay with whatever you've got and run the contents that was built for that version of Trainz.

Happy Trainzing...

Cheers, Mac...

Click to expand...

I am going to explain what I am saying a little easier in this post. After getting TRS2006 from Walmart around 2011 or 2012 (NO IDEA why they were still selling it 6 years after it came out. It has been outdated for years.) I started playing it immediately and got to a point were I was old enough and started prototypical operations and also started getting add-on content. After getting a My Trainz account I started downloading content from 3rd party websites and the DLS. HOWEVER, after doing this I realized built-in content from the game had become faulty. At first I had no idea why because it is built-in content. I started looking for some reason why they were faulty in Content Manager and found it tried to update the super old pieces of content. They were faulty now because there were newer versions of the same thing that had new or different dependencies. If the older version was left alone and a newer version started independently of the old one, this probably would not have happened. The only reason content manager did this is because it tried to update everything old on its own after I logged into my My Trainz account in content manager.

This is what I was saying before, about either N3V with a route or someone updating a piece of content from an old game to a newer one and making it faulty because of version incompatibility. This will eventually happen to TS12 as well as TS2009 and TS2010 after certain pieces of content are updated to newer versions and the older version is not left alone. This happens because content manager cannot update or download ANYTHING that is not for your version of the game or if it is not compatible with your version of the game you are running content manager in. It doesn't let you, believe me, I have tried. TS12 is an example of backwards compatibility because you can run TS2009 and TS2010 content in it, but not TRS2004 or TRS2006 ONLY content. (I believe there is a compatibility mode option that you can turn on, but not everyone uses it when the piece of content is from TRS2006.)

If you look on the DLS, it proves I am right. The 3ft (36in) gauge diesel shunter no longer has a TRS2006 version and only a TRS2009 version. Link: https://www.auran.com/DLS/DLS_viewasset.php?AssetID=289427

Well there is a Trainz Classics 3 version available. Is that what you mean?

36 in Diesel Shunter [Detailed]

Newer Version Available - View History
Trainz Classics 3
Created by: narrowgauge
File Size: 601.48 kb
KUID2: <KUID2:44700:61:1>
Date: 29th Apr 2013
Downloaded: 3290

History
36 in Diesel Shunter [Detailed]
TS2009 19th August 2013

36 in Diesel Shunter [Detailed]
Trainz Classics 3 29th April 2013

MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS said:

If you look on the DLS, it proves I am right. The 3ft (36in) gauge diesel shunter no longer has a TRS2006 version and only a TRS2009 version. Link: https://www.auran.com/DLS/DLS_viewasset.php?AssetID=289427

Click to expand...

No you are wrong old version is on the DLS and available for download go to web page and search for <KUID2:44700:61:1> Comes up with a note that there is also a newer version. You can download the old version

Or in TANE right click on the new version, Show asset versions, old versions are listed, highlight it and right click download this version and you will download <KUID2:44700:61:1>

MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS said:

I am going to explain what I am saying a little easier in this post. After getting TRS2006 from Walmart around 2011 or 2012 (NO IDEA why they were still selling it 6 years after it came out. It has been outdated for years.) I started playing it immediately and got to a point were I was old enough and started prototypical operations and also started getting add-on content. After getting a My Trainz account I started downloading content from 3rd party websites and the DLS. HOWEVER, after doing this I realized built-in content from the game had become faulty. At first I had no idea why because it is built-in content. I started looking for some reason why they were faulty in Content Manager and found it tried to update the super old pieces of content. They were faulty now because there were newer versions of the same thing that had new or different dependencies. If the older version was left alone and a newer version started independently of the old one, this probably would not have happened. The only reason content manager did this is because it tried to update everything old on its own after I logged into my My Trainz account in content manager.

This is what I was saying before, about either N3V with a route or someone updating a piece of content from an old game to a newer one and making it faulty because of version incompatibility. This will eventually happen to TS12 as well as TS2009 and TS2010 after certain pieces of content are updated to newer versions and the older version is not left alone. This happens because content manager cannot update or download ANYTHING that is not for your version of the game or if it is not compatible with your version of the game you are running content manager in. It doesn't let you, believe me, I have tried. TS12 is an example of backwards compatibility because you can run TS2009 and TS2010 content in it, but not TRS2004 or TRS2006 ONLY content. (I believe there is a compatibility mode option that you can turn on, but not everyone uses it when the piece of content is from TRS2006.)

If you look on the DLS, it proves I am right. The 3ft (36in) gauge diesel shunter no longer has a TRS2006 version and only a TRS2009 version. Link: https://www.auran.com/DLS/DLS_viewasset.php?AssetID=289427

Click to expand...

Content updates are done by content creators and not by N3V. Downloading and updating content is up to the discretion of the end-user.

That block, which you are kvetching about, is done for a very good reason. As content is updated, there are things that are sometimes changed to take into consideration, such as newer features for example, which are not available in the previous version. If you were to bring an updated locomotive, such as the one you described, into Trainz, it can and will break things as you've found out.

It's called moving forward and is quite necessary in the software world. If you remain in the past, you have to use the older content and there's then no reason to update.