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Thread: Here we go again TRS2018

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd_james View Post
    They certainly would not survive long if everyone stops buying their product. But if TRS2018 is as bad as TANE with full of warts as you put it, Perhaps that's what N3V should get. For you to buy TRS2018 even if it's crap out of the box just contributes to the problem and the endless cycle of poor product launches and service packs to try and fix those problems.
    No, I didn't put it as "Full of warts". I said; "even if it has a few warts".

    Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. Microsoft are still putting out monthly patches & updates for Win7, Win8 & Win10. I don't see you bitching about MS when they launched a new Windows...

    If N3V had waited 2-3 years to get Tane as right as they could, before launching Tane, NV3 would probably have gone broke 2-3 years ago!!!

    As the saying goes, "if you don't like the bumpy ride, you can always jump off ya bike".

    Have a good day Sir.

    Cheers, Mac...
    Last edited by meatloaf747; September 16th, 2017 at 08:51 PM.

  2. #47

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    All I can say is, I'm just pleased to wake up in the mornings and be thankful for this.
    The bonus on top is to be able to load trainz or another piece of software that my pc will run for me to enjoy. Perhaps it is time to put things back in perspective and enjoy what we have eh.

    Don't like something for what ever reason > move on.
    "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated"
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  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCitron View Post
    As Pware says, here we go again.

    We don't know what the new version is going be like. If it's like anything we've had in the past, 95% of the content we've installed and downloaded will carry over into the new version without problem, and we'll have to update or repair that stuff that does not. The good news this time around is we have the CRG who is busily updating and repairing content which is on the DLS. With that occurring, this will save a lot of time on our part, through their hard work upfront, when it comes time to move on from T:ANE as they repair and update the assets to the DLS.

    Like any product, whether it's electronics, automobiles, and less tangible items such as software, nothing can be static. If a company remains static, their product becomes dead and forgotten. I know, I worked for a company that did just that. In 2006, they discontinued R&D and eliminated a good number of sales people. They no longer were looking forward or producing new products, and had moved into a survival mode of selling their old products. The world moved on and they did not, and sadly after nearly 20 years in business, they closed their doors. That is not what we want here, and it's really a good thing that Tony is investing in his company, which sadly didn't happen to the company I worked for.
    I couldn't agree more. At least for me, it is getting very tiresome to see all the doom and gloom and complaining here on the forums. When I first joined the Trainz community it was a much happier place, and that is a big part of what drew me to this franchise. Now it seems like people go out of their way to find something to pick at, and the overall feeling of negativity is at times overwhelming. Personally I think the guys at N3V are busting their butts to make Trainz as good as it can be. The fact that they are a company of limited resources and yet choose to continue issuing FREE service packs speaks volumes to me.

    So when N3V shows off a neat bit of technology and hints that new things are coming down the line, why not applaud their efforts at continuous improvement? Certainly opinions should be expressed, and negative opinions are every bit as valuable as positive ones because they may bring to light some factor that was not previously considered. But both types of opinions can and should be expressed with respect, and I'm sorry but I see a tremendous lack of that here as of late.


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  4. #49
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    Well said Mike.

    Unfortunately extreme negativity has become a sign of our times. Constructive criticism should always be welcome while nothing but praise can ultimately be damaging.

    It is those who just post "[Insert version of Trainz here] is the worst ever and [Auran/N3V] is [ripping us off/incompetent/useless] and I will [never purchase anything from them again/sue their a**e off] unless they [fix/remove/add/stop] it immediately" without offering any reasonable analysis or worse, have jumped to instant conclusions based on rumours, misquotes or misunderstandings - such as this thread.

    I have not been 100% happy with TANE - in fact bugs in SP2 have set me back several months by corrupting 12 sessions that I was about to release with a layout that had its origins back in 2010. Instead of ranting in the forums (which would not have solved the problems) I worked through N3Vs bug reporting system to help them identify the bugs (discovering and reporting more along the way) with the result that those critical bugs have now been squashed in HF1. The few that remain are non-critical and have simple work-arounds. Despite all that, I find TANE to be far more usable and with better options than any of its predecessors. The extra time I have had to spend "debugging" and repairing the sessions has allowed me to make some major improvements.

    Bugs are a part of life in all software. Some people just don't get this and take any setback personally.

    If large software developers like Microsoft, Adobe, Apple with all their resources cannot get it right why do people expect small developers to do the impossible? I suspect that part of the answer is that Trainz represents a hobby which people tend to be more passionate about than they would be when using a word processor or a graphics package.

    No doubt it will all happen again when Trainz [NEXT/2018/????] is released. It is part of our nature.
    A member of the "Party Machine". Now if only I could remember where they are holding the party!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pware View Post
    ...I suspect that part of the answer is that Trainz represents a hobby which people tend to be more passionate about than they would be when using a word processor or a graphics package.

    ...
    Very true.

    My view is that TANE represents a first step using a completely different software platform (new graphics engine, 64 bit, etc). The task was enormous because the original code had to be ported across while maintaining support for the many thousands of existing assets including those routes and sessions that exist only on members computers.

    Tony originally called TS2018 the "next step" and my interpretation, based on what I've observed, is that TS2018 will now start to take advantage of the new rendering techniques available with the new platform.

    There have been quite a few interesting changes in the Trainz Content Creation WiKi in recent days wrt to textures and materials. This, I hope, will give better opportunities for content creators (model makers) for TS2018.

    Paul


  6. #51

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    Has the selling-point for the next Trainz changed? TANE NEXT was to give us MP Surveyor, now it seems TS2018 will give us even prettier pictures. What is interesting here is the question of limits. Imaging/graphics has been the main booster of all consumer electronics - computers and phones - since about 2000. We seem now to be reaching the limits in this field. Phone screen and cameras cannot be meaningfully developed any further, and computer graphics is already displaying way too much information.

    Where will this take Trainz? It's obvious that the next big booster in IT will be AI. The problem here is that most people see AI in terms of activity, robots doing things. In the late 1990s there was a period when CPU power way outstripped GPU power, so that there was a massive increase in the intelligence of actual gameplay. This was of course a relatively limited development, given the low capacity of existing computer systems. Even so, the games produced in this quite short period - mostly but not all games of strategy, where intelligence could be fruitful deployed - remain for many the pinnacle of continuously engrossing gameplay.

    Now Trainz doesn't do anything (no one has yet thought to use the sim to run an actual railway system or even just a model layout - though there is no good reason why it could not be developed to do this). Instead, all its intelligence is invested in the actual workings of the virtual routes, simple and complex. Perhaps this is where nev should concentrate development of future Trainz. And Trainz would benefit greatly from such development.

    Operational intelligence is not so easy to sell as pretty pics, but once the limits of graphics become evident (the truth is we notice very little of the detail in either the real or virtual worlds anyway), an emphasis on the AI of Trainz will become unavoidable. And there is an added advantage here for the user. While I doubt the elaboration of graphical detail has made many more aware of the real world around them, immersion in complex intelligent systems - such that could be developed in Trainz - will educate people about both the capacity and also the limits of machine intelligence.
    Last edited by phimat; September 14th, 2017 at 05:37 AM. Reason: a little bit more...

  7. #52
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    Some interesting thoughts Phimat. It is probably too early to say that N3V has changed direction from multiplayer surveyor to prettier pictures in their next and apparently highly contentious version. Perhaps they will both be part of that release.

    It is a brave punter who would predict that technology has reached a limit. I suspect that VR and holographic technology may be pointers for possible future Trainz graphical developments (or not). Certainly the shift to a 64bit software base has opened up a lot of new possibilities. I don't know if it is too early to start thinking about video quality images in Trainz (as a true sandbox system, not one with very restricted points of view) but that is certainly one of the possibilities for the future. My only worry is how difficult might it be for the average Trainzer to continue being a content creator.

    AI (and I don't just mean driver Alister) has largely been in the doldrums since the 1960s but recent advances in computing power and the real possibility of quantum computing have reawakened interest and possibilities there.

    Some good food for thought.
    A member of the "Party Machine". Now if only I could remember where they are holding the party!

  8. #53
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    Honestly, I was expecting another game and I said to myself "well if TS12 becomes too outdated and becomes unplayable, I will get it". (TRS2006 at this point is unplayable with add-ons.) However, with all the errors with T:ANE from the get go, I thought it wouldn't do too well and I was right. I do know they fixed the bugs in 2 Service Packs but what annoys me is there is NO ADD-ON content for it! I also knew TMR and Trainz Driver (for the MAC) wouldn't do too great either. I don't understand what N3V is doing to be honest. Make a normal trainz simulator with in it Surveyor and so on. Not one that ONLY allows you to drive a train, that is essencially a glorified Microsoft Train Simulator which is honestly really boring and I know because we have it on our computer and played it to satisfy my need for trains. It is honestly very boring when you can't make your own routes or operate a free-roam session. So I also looked one day for some 3ft narrow gauge content on the DLS for T:ANE and there was not one thing. That is sad, but to be honest, would you want to update 3,000 assets if you made that many? I think that is why no one is updating their content because they really do have to re-work everything that is older than TS12 SP2. I would love for them to make the next one compatible with content from TS2009-T:ANE allowing for us to use really old content that is still great and content creators don't have to update everything to work with it.
    Last edited by MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS; September 14th, 2017 at 07:42 AM.
    Leaving Florida on the 24th, stopping in South Carolina for a day and then heading back to PA on the 26th.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS View Post
    Honestly, I was expecting another game and I said to myself "well if TS12 becomes too outdated and becomes unplayable, I will get it". (TRS2006 at this point is unplayable with add-ons.) However, with all the errors with T:ANE from the get go, I thought it wouldn't do too well and I was right.
    There is the old adage "never buy anything with version 1 after its name". Certainly TANE (original release) was something of a disaster and while SP1 and SP2 fixed some issues they created others. My experiences so far with TANE SP2 HF1 (beta) however have been very positive so it would be prudent to wait until that is released.

    what annoys me is there is NO ADD-ON content for it [TANE]! I looked one day for some 3ft narrow gauge content on the DLS, not one thing.
    I suspect that once HF1 is out of the way and creators start to feel more confident that situation will (hopefully) change.

    I think that is why no one is updating their content because they really do have to re-work everything that is older than TS12 SP2.
    Not true. There are plenty of assets on the DLS from older versions of Trainz that work perfectly well in TANE. A layout and 12 sessions that I have created for TANE SP2 uses 736 assets from build 1.3 (Trainz SP3) to build 3.8 (Trainz Simulator 2 Mac - the next build level above TS12 SP1).

    I would love for them to make the next one compatible with content from TS2009-T:ANE allowing for us to use really old content that is still great and content creators don't have to update everything to work with it.
    You could have a fight on your hands there as there are plenty of Trainzers who believe that TANE should have made a complete break from all older content and started completely fresh. It would certainly have avoided many of the current issues with TANE. Eventually, that break will have to occur. Do you really want to be running a simulator that uses the latest in graphics display technology but is showing graphic objects that were created 15 years ago?
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  10. #55
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    With every new version, one of the features that is always stressed is how much existing content there is that can still be used. Now I've always been a proponent of backwards compatibility but I'm starting to wonder if it will soon become more of an albatross. With the new rendering feature being worked on, the modeling standards are again being raised and all existing models will be that much much worse visually. Even if they can include special code to accommodate the older models to make them look acceptable, those are CPU cycles that could be better used elsewhere.

    Of course starting with a blank slate would mean lean times for route builders for a long time, at least until content creators catch up. Perhaps a middle ground where the compatibility code could be turned on or off by the user as required.


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  11. #56
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    The trouble is that even with the best will in the world many, probably most, content creators will never be able to update their entire catalogue of assets. In my experience, updating an old asset takes more time than creating the original. I have about 1000 assets and have been aiming to update them all, but have only managed to do a handful so far.
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  12. #57
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    I think backwards compatibility is a great feature to have in games. But like you said martinvk, they start to show their age. Now with me, a lot of things from TRS2004 and 2006 still look great in TS12 or T:ANE. However, they are mostly buildings. The thing is, some content creators have made over 3,000 pieces of content and I even found a guy that has that much on the DLS. There is NO WAY that they can update all that in this century. It would honestly take way too long. That is why backwards compatibility is good so content makers don't have to keep on updating content to make it compliant with the latest game. From what I have seen most content doesn't even make it to the next game in the first place. Go look at what was in TRS2006 and what is in TS12 or T:ANE today, I can tell you none or VERY LITTLE content in them is from TRS2006. One example is all the CN and CP equipment, it all vanished after TS2009 came out. The CP 44 tonner, and the famous CN 4-8-4 Northern with Vanderbilt tender are 2 examples. Those locos are from the Toronto Rail Lands 1954 Route.
    Last edited by MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS; September 14th, 2017 at 02:15 PM.
    Leaving Florida on the 24th, stopping in South Carolina for a day and then heading back to PA on the 26th.

  13. #58
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    Today (15th Sept) there is a new post in the N3V newsletter site at https://forums.auran.com/trainz/cont...s-(sneak-peek) which details new developments in ground height textures for Trainz. I wonder if we will get another round of "Here we go again" posts from those who see any progress in Trainz as a threat?
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  14. #59
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    Well hoping that the new game will be released as a boxed disc set available at gaming software shops.
    Rather have a disc copy than a download version.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by davies_mike57 View Post
    Rather have a disc copy than a download version.
    You can actually order a boxed DVD set of TANE SP2 to be mailed to you. Visit the MyTrainz shop (although I would wait until TANE SP2 HF1 is available on DVD).
    A member of the "Party Machine". Now if only I could remember where they are holding the party!

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