.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 35

Thread: Simulation Study

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Antarctica, Vostok Base, South Pole, AQ
    Posts
    16,907

    Default

    An engineer is taught how to drive, and what to look for, and is given a qualification training for the particular route ... If you don't have the common sense, can't operate a locomotive and control the train ... You are drummed out of a job as an inept applicant ... no eye tracking software/hardware will ever help train a incompetent person

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    United States of America, Oklahoma
    Posts
    606

    Default

    100% agree with cascade. Only the most vigilant and focused people should ever be allowed to sit in the engineer's seat.
    -Riley


  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Antarctica, Vostok Base, South Pole, AQ
    Posts
    16,907

    Default

    If you need RoboCop or Terminator computer eyeball virtual HUD enhancement in order to drive a train and to distinguish signals ... the job is not for you

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Somerset, United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,904

    Default

    Hi everybody.
    Sadly over the next few years all rail driver/engineer jobs will be taken over by artificial intelligence. Driverless trains, trucks, buses and cars will become the "norm" in developed countries throughout the world. Autonomous vehicles will prove to be far safer than vehicles controlled by humans and within ten to twelve years a debate will begin as to whether human beings should be allowed to control any vehicle while it is moving.
    Bill

  5. #20

    Default

    It has been 30 years now since the London Docklands Light Railway (DLR) started carrying passengers in "driverless" trains. So there is plenty of data showing how safe or otherwise automated trains are especially when designed that way from the start.
    The DLR is a very different railway to traditional ones as most of the track is away from people/animals etc. The normal UK routes are still driver/engineer driven and I'd hate to see that change in the foreseeable future. There are too many variables for automated systems to handle in a network which has been built over 170 odd years.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    United States of America, Oklahoma
    Posts
    606

    Default

    Personally, I would never, ever ride a driverless train, however safe it claims to be, under any circumstances. There have been several incidents related to AI trains, even if there is a small glitch in the system there could be a major disaster. Computers, however much people want to believe it, can not replace a human's instinct.
    -Riley


  7. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Somerset, United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,904

    Default

    The link below gives details of the first commercial delivery run made by a driverless truck in the United States. Similar trials are underway here in Britain and throughout Europe. If the following can be carried out on an open road in heavy traffic conditions, then it most certainly can be carried out on the much easier controlled railways.
    Link begins here:- https://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/25/driv...ing-truck.html

    Bill
    Last edited by wholbr; August 12th, 2017 at 01:35 PM.

  8. #23

    Default

    While 1 or 2 automated vehicles on the road may not be an issue, there are serious questions to be asked when the roads are full of them.
    Why?
    Because of the monitoring systems (most based on a radar system) where the vehicle will be inundated by signals from other vehicles. These other signals will interfere with your car's signal and reduce its accuracy and depth of field it can "see" clearly.
    The current trials are too simplistic.
    My town is getting a fleet of automated electric cars but they will only run on special areas away from other vehicles. Basically there are running on the pavement and will have a fixed route too. They just have to avoid running down the pedestrians so their top speed will be limited thankfully. Feel sorry for any blind person who uses these pavements as these silent 2 seater vehicles will be a pain for them.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Somerset, United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whitburncolliery View Post
    While 1 or 2 automated vehicles on the road may not be an issue, there are serious questions to be asked when the roads are full of them.
    Why?
    Because of the monitoring systems (most based on a radar system) where the vehicle will be inundated by signals from other vehicles. These other signals will interfere with your car's signal and reduce its accuracy and depth of field it can "see" clearly.
    The current trials are too simplistic.
    My town is getting a fleet of automated electric cars but they will only run on special areas away from other vehicles. Basically there are running on the pavement and will have a fixed route too. They just have to avoid running down the pedestrians so their top speed will be limited thankfully. Feel sorry for any blind person who uses these pavements as these silent 2 seater vehicles will be a pain for them.
    I cannot speak for the development of autonomous cars, but the development of driverless trucks I have been involved with by way of the M6 motorway trials here in the UK which over the last two years have gone well without a single safety incident. The Scania and Volvo 40 ton articulated trucks involved have eight independent systems fitted with each having four separate backups to each system.

    The autonomous guidence and operating systems consist of a range of sensors including lasers, infrared, GPS, camera technology and several other newly developed technologies such as " active geometry" and building recognition technology in conjunction with Google maps street view. The forgoing controls all aspects of the vehicles progress on any set schedule.

    The trials have taken the vehicles along the almost the full length of the M6 and into the cities of Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool without problems. Of course at this stage there is always a qualified driver on board ready to override the autonomous systems instantly should the need arise. However, since the start of 2017 the need for that to happen has not been brought about.

    In the above much of the technology being used is already in existence in production cars. My own car has forward collision and lane change control which on a rain soaked motorway on a dark winter's night is absolutely invaluable. If the vehicle in front has similar technology then as soon as that vehicle starts to brake my car does the same and in that informs the vehicle travelling behind if it is fitted with similar technology. Control is transferred from the drivers to the on board computers taking over the braking, speed and distance maintenance from the vehicle in front and to the rear. Should the vehicle forward not have such a system fitted then his slowing or accelerating is immediately picked up by my vehicle through its systems and my vehicle responds accordingly

    Autonomous rail technology is already developing in the same areas I would imagine. In that, with both Network Rail and the Office of Road and Rail talking of trains on Britain's busiest sections of the network traveling no more than one minute apart such technology will most definitely be required.

    Bill
    Last edited by wholbr; August 12th, 2017 at 04:45 PM.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA, United States of America
    Posts
    233
    Blog Entries
    42

    Default

    This all seems to be getting far from the original request, which was for things an engineer must monitor while operating a train.

    Trackage: Sun kinks in welded rail. Washouts and subsidence. Turnout state. Intrusions on right-of-way including vehicles and livestock (including bipeds,) speed change indications.

    MsRailroad is setting up a study of visual perception, yes? How connected to conditioned or reasoned response is the study, out of curiosity?

    :B~)
    BA Psi

  11. #26

    Default

    This all seems to be getting far from the original request, which was for things an engineer must monitor while operating a train.
    And the OT probably doesn't really belong in General Trainz either, maybe Prototype Talk or one of the other non-Trainz specific subs?
    TANE...Resistance Is Futile

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA, United States of America
    Posts
    233
    Blog Entries
    42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    And the OT probably doesn't really belong in General Trainz either, maybe Prototype Talk or one of the other non-Trainz specific subs?
    Probably true, but while it's here we might stick to the topic.

    Pulling into a station? All the above while operating the controls to make the stop as smooth as possible for the passengers. And minding the train-length markers to ensure the passengers de-train where they should.

    :B~)

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    229

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MsRailroad View Post
    Hi Dave:
    Thank you for responding. So if you were an engineer operating on the main line, is there something besides the things I listed in the original post, where a radio communication may distract you? For example, we're expecting if an engineer was approaching a signal where he should see it all the way through, if a radio communication came in at the same time, he may stop looking at the signal and it could drop right before he goes through, and he/she wouldn't see it.

    Any scenarios like a signals you mentioned below, where engineer should definitely take notice? How would a tunnel possibly fit into this? I'm not aware of what an engineer looks at in or around tunnels.
    My apologies for the delay in answering your questions. My health has not been what I would have wanted these last few days. Considerably better now though, I'm glad to say.

    My experience is of driving trains in the UK where radio chatter is considerably less than in the U.S. or Australia. In the UK, even if there is another (authorised) member of staff on the footplate with the driver (engineer), rules and ettiquette dictate that that person will fall silent and not distract the train driver if the train approaches a caution or danger signal or is enters a place where the train must be brought to a halt (stations, sidings, yards etc..) However, most British trains are single manned these days - but the principle still applies should anyone enter the cab environment. Furthermore, the driver in charge of the train would also ignore ANY and ALL radio calls until such time as his train had been brought safely to a stand or it was safe for him/her to respond to the radio away from all possible dangerous situations. Obviously, emergency situations could and would change priorities should it become necessary.

    When approaching caution signals, a driver always has the signal in sight but not necessarily by looking directly at it. Peripheral vision comes into play, especially when there are various other activities going on in the immediate area. However, should that signal change aspect then the driver's full attention immediatley comes back to it and he/she will respond accordingly. Drivers place their absolute trust in signals - if they didn't they would never go above 10 mph - and as such, every signal conveys a message to a driver that he/she will do his/her utmost to never miss. No matter how many years you've been doing the job, a caution signal will make any driver "tune in" full on and be ready to respond in the appropriate manner. When approaching a danger signal, however, it is firmly fixed in the driver's vision at all times. Nothing else matters. To a train driver, a red signal is a brick wall! (And as they tell you in training here in the UK, anything on this side of it is yours. Anything on the other side of it belongs to the boss - and you don't want to be meeting the boss over this particular issue.)

    When entering stations, drivers will scan the full length of the platform ahead of them for possible problems, e.g. hyperactive kids messing about and pushing each other towards the track as part of their tomfoolery, parcels, baby buggies or anything else potentially too close the platform edge to be considered safe or even potential suicidal people; as well as a multitude of other scenarios. After that quick scan, your main vison is then concentrated on roughly the area you will be bringing the train to a stop - but everything else remains in play too.

    When approaching tunnels, several things come into play. Firstly, I want to know that the tunnel is still a tunnel, i.e. it hasn't suddenly become a cave. If I can normally see right through the tunnel then I'll be quickly checking to make sure that I can do on this occasion too. Instinct will also warn you if there is any unexpected change to the shape of the tunnel (sagging roof, bulging wall[s]). Your brain has logged a picture in its memory banks over numerous visits to the area you are now approaching and it's amazing how that picture can be instantly recalled when something is "not quite right." I also want to know that the tunnel mouth/portal is still in good condition with no bits falling off or hanging down? Are there any obvious signs of a landslide/slip or large quantities of water entering or flowing out of the tunnel? These are all observations made in seconds but done everytime without even thinking about it.

    Once in the tunnel, vision is obviously extremely limited - especially if the tunnel has one or more curves in it. In the darkness you are on the lookout for anyone potentially working in the tunnel or walking through the tunnel (authorised persons would normally be aware of your presence and they would know where to safely stand but their lights/torches would be visible to you. Unauthorised persons usually end up as mincemeat and you generally only know that they were there at the last second or when you hear the "bump" as you knock them over.) Apart from the visuals, a driver would also be "looking out for" potential "wet beds" that cause severe bounce or drops that cause the loco to bottom out on the suspension, or any other rail defects that might become apparent. Once the exit to the tunnel is in view, your eyes are drawn to the light and you start to take in all the same sort of things that you looked for on your approach - as well as looking out for people or livestock outside of the tunnel.

    Drivers are often very good at "looking cool" or giving the impression to onlookers that what they are doing is easy. Believe me, they are ALL switched on at all times. Lives depend on it. If you make a mistake with hundreds or even thousands of tons behind you, someone is going to get hurt (or worse) and number one candidate on the list is the man at the front!

    Cheers

    Dave

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Antarctica, Vostok Base, South Pole, AQ
    Posts
    16,907

    Default

    An engineer should have a functional Bwain to intact wit' signals ... If you can not ..., then you are inept ... and can not operate a twian

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    United States of America
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RHKluckhohn View Post
    This all seems to be getting far from the original request, which was for things an engineer must monitor while operating a train.

    Trackage: Sun kinks in welded rail. Washouts and subsidence. Turnout state. Intrusions on right-of-way including vehicles and livestock (including bipeds,) speed change indications.

    MsRailroad is setting up a study of visual perception, yes? How connected to conditioned or reasoned response is the study, out of curiosity?

    :B~)
    BA Psi

    Thanks for the return! The study is one of distraction in the engineer. Trying to find a way to distract him/her with typical things that may be distracting (ie radio, paperwork etc), to where he/she may miss something that he/she should be visually looking at (my request was for the latter which you provided some good examples!)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •