Durango & Silverton / Cumbres & Toltec

The webpages for both railroads are very confusing, have very bad colors, very fine small print, and are very non-descript

Both railpackages offer a ride either on a motorcoach/return by train, or train/return by motorcoach, complete with a generic box lunch ... Dull Dull Dull !

Who wants to even ride the BUS ? ? ?

And motel/hotel lodging is sparse and lackluster ... which is utterly stupid, lack of planning on the 5 towns fault

They charge in excess of $100 pp ... So why don't they have hotels/motels/bed & breakfasts/resorts at Durango, Silverton, and Chama, Antonito, and charge $200 pp, or have hotels/motels/bed & breakfasts/resorts packages for a round trip train from Durango to Silverton, and from Chama to Antonito, with an overnight layover, or a 2 day layover, so one could ride the train both directions, and explore the local attractions, which would generate revenue to each town.

The same way with the Grande Canyon RWY ... if Disney had a park, and hotels/motels/bed & breakfasts/resorts packages, in those 5 towns, they would be sold out with several day vacationers, boosting the 5 local towns economy's

I think you have to book train/motorcoach packages 1 year in advance ... Dumb Dumb Dumb

PS: The Aug 21 2017 Solar Eclipse is sold out in many nationwide hotels/motels/bed & breakfasts/resorts, from Oregon to Charleston 1:00 PM - 4:00 PM

I took the D&S about 15 years ago and it was a round trip. Left Durango early in the morning, 3 hours up, got about 2 hours for shopping and lunch in Silverton, and 3 hours back. Were running 4 trains a day. In the winter they only go as far as Cascade Canyon since there is a wye there. Some sort of fancy hotel too I think. Not sure if they run 4 trains a day in the winter. Think my ticket for one of the open cars was $65. Bar car was around $90. Could rent a caboose for the trip for $1200 and the private car for around $5000. Conductor said the private car got used more then the caboose as railfan clubs rented it. Came with a fancy meal and booze. Soon as I win the lottery I'm taking the caboose, lol.

As I understand it the C&T trip is around 60 miles and takes 5 or 6 hours one way. Too long for a round trip in a single day unless you leave before the sun comes up and get back after it has set - hence the bus (yah - I wouldn't want to take the bus either). I also agree with you they need a bunch of motels/hotels. Particularly in Chama. Antonito isn't very big the Alamosa is so there might be some there. Both trips well worth it rail-fan-wise.

As for $100 a ticket - it costs $101 a head to just get into Disney World in Orlando. Everything else is on top of that. Keep Florida Green (bring money).

Ben

bendorsey said:

I also agree with you they need a bunch of motels/hotels. Particularly in Chama. Antonito isn't very big the Alamosa is so there might be some there. Both trips well worth it rail-fan-wise.
Ben

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I believe at one point you could travel all the way from Chama to Alamosa by train, by taking the C&T to Antonito and SLRG to Alamosa... Not sure if you can do that anymore though. You can still get from Alamosa to La Veta by train.
Cheers
Maas

Yo Cascade:

I looked at the site and see what you mean. It has changed drastically from when I rode it but then it has been 15 years. Cost of everything has gone up and prices follow. I don't remember seeing any one way trips on the D&S. All were round trips. Didn't have all those different "classes" of cars either other then the bar car. Today I suspect the charge the least for the open cars, more the closed passenger cars, more yet for the lounge cars. I didn't see any mention of the caboose or private car (if you have to ask you can't afford it, lol). I did notice what I thought was a loco ride. Hate to think what that must cost (if true). C&S probably the same.

Wonder if they are owned by the same parent company? I know they swapped locos a bunch of years back. A K-36 to the D&S for a K-37 to the C&T. I've heard the D&S uses lighter rail and K-37 is a tad heavy for it.

Still a nice ride (and I still gotta win that lottery, lol).

Ben

Did the D&S some years back and as noted it was definitely a round trip, with around 2 hours at Silverton which, realistically, was long enough to walk round, buy lunch and get a couple of tacky souvenirs. Geat scenic ride but incredibly slow - no more than about 20 MPH even on the straight bits. Also marred by incessant chatter and kids running back and forth, needed a quiet coach.

Never done the Cumbres run but AFAIK due to length always been train one way and bus the other.

With regard to Grand Canyon, by all accounts fairly nondescript run through desert scrub and low forest with, if you read some of the negative reviews on Trip Advisor, various tacky Wild West gimmicks added on. This culminates in a train "robbery" where the actors quite aggressively hustle the passengers for tips, as do the traincrew when you alight. Also constant commentary or C&W music playing when all most people want is to chill and enjoy a quiet ride other than the train ambience.

Here are my few cents:

Running Steam equipment aint cheap. I can understand why the tickets are at least $100. The C&TS is in a way in the middle of nowhere when it comes to other attractions. Durango has Mesa Verde + 4 Corners to the west, Silverton to the north, skiing, backpacking, etc. Chama... not much... The same can be said for lodging. Chama only has a handful of hotels/motels/lodges/RV parks. Antonito is the same. They do have Alamosa to the North, about 30 miles away.

Another reason for the pricing is track/equipment maintenance. The C&TS is wise to use what grant money it can find and volunteer labor(FOC&TS). Over the past few years, they have upgraded and reballasted the entire line. When I road back in 2007, they were just beginning to do the upgrade. There were portions where it was still the dirt for ballast. The D&S has let their track go. 2 Trains derailed last month due to poor track. Also, the C&TS is also beginning to restore older passenger equipment for a historic train. They have already restored a RPO. They are currently working on coach in Pagosa Springs Facility. They have also recently obtained a baggage car. They are also making great progress on the T-12 168 restoration. She should be under steam in about 2 years or so! Not bad for an engine sitting since 1938! Both railroads are owned separately. The D&S is in private hands. The C&TS has recently formed into its own company. For the longest time, it was owned by the states and operated by several other companies, with mixed results...

The text is small and layout is not the best on the websites. I will agree on that. It took me a while to navigate. I plan on riding the C&TS traveling Antonito-->Chama and bus back during September of this year. Last I checked (7-20), tickets were still available for the different classes. Hotel wont be an issue since I travel by RV... The D&S still charges for the open cars. There are 2 classes. The regular covered gondola or the 'Parlor' Class Silver Vista. When I rode the D&S back in 2009, I was in the regular Gon. The C&TS is still first-come-first-serve (The best spot is right behind the engine or in the vestibules)

The SLRG, from what I can tell, has discontinued its passenger trains to Antonito. The line is currently storing miles of rail cars that were on the Creede branch (there were several strings of cars that a customer needed so the SLRG moved the other cars to the Antonito Branch to get to the required cars). The passenger train schedules can change. I can also tell they have put their steam program on hold.

K-37's can run on the D&S. The main issue was when the 497 was operating, the pilot truck wasn't rebuilt properly, causing it to derail often. When the C&TS traded the 482 for the 497, they fixed the pilot issue and the 497 operated just fine on the C&TS rougher track.

I have been on the GCRY. As Vern put it, the timing was fine. The 'atmosphere' is a tourist trap. The RV park there by the Williams Depot was lovely.

Again, these are my few cents. All-in-all, things could be worse! There could by no narrow gauge!

The price of the ticket is not my complaint, it is well worth it ... But at fault is the town(s) lack of forethought on creating hotels and revenue ... The point I am making is the town(s) are the road from nowheresville, to the other town(s) in nowheresville, with no other points of interest, or tourist attractions, to make people want to stay for a week at a time

And here is the cave in the gold mine (that is now empty) where Jessie James hid his loot ... Dull Dull Dull Dullsville

I wonder what those 4 towns would be like without the RR. Durango has a little going for it outside of the RR but I don't think the other 3 have much at all.

When I rode the D&S it was 4 trains a day, 8 to 10 cars per train, and probably 40 or so people per car. Even at $65 for my ticket back then that adds up to a pretty penny. Take that away and how much of the town goes with it?

Ben

I travelled from Ireland last year and had no problem finding a place to stay in Durango for a couple of nights. Lacking any local knowledge, I resorted to Google which gave me all I needed to know. I didn't take the train ride as it would have been a full day out of my short visit although I did visit their museum, which was very good. My only complaint in that respect was that there was nobody around to speak to as I'm involved in rail preservation in Ireland and wouldn't have minded a blether.

I drove from there to Silverton and given that it's basically a one street town, I'm not surprised there aren't many places to stay. I'd imagine the railway must contribute to Silverton's economy to a degree and fair play to them if that's the case. It's not a place I'd have chosen to drive to by choice though I'd planned my route to pass there purely on account of the railway, but like everywhere else in the States, the people were phenomenal.

Perhaps you should have taken the shop tour. It takes an hour or more and is quite informative. Only offered once a day tho (or was).

I suspect Silverton closes up shop for the winter as the trains don't go that far. Kinda like a town I was in up in Alaska. Population 5000 in the summer. Population 500 in the winter.

Ben

Thinking back to our trip there, fairly certain we stayed at the Best Western in Durango. Not too bad and only about a five minute walk to the station.

Kinda like a town I was in up in Alaska. Population 5000 in the summer. Population 500 in the winter.

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Wasn't that the premise of a film a few years ago, town got taken over by vampires? Ah yes, remember the title - "30 Days Of Night". Not for the younger members or the faint of heart...!

When I was in Alaska all the vampires worked at the local grocery store. Eggs $1 each - loaf of bread $5, lol. Alaska is pretty but also pretty expensive. The cost of living is why the drastic change in population. Its so expensive to winter over there fishermen opt to go to Seattle for example and wait until spring.

Yup - I'd love to ride the WP&Y.

Ben

I was thinking about this a little while ago and got to wondering.

How many folks ride the C&T from Antonito to Chama and take the bus back compared to how many ride it from Chama to Antonito and take the bus back.
Alamosa isn't that far from Antonito but Chama is sort of out in the middle of nowhere so I wonder of there is considerably more traffic in one direction then the other.

Might it be worth the C&T's while to buy or build a nice motel with accompanying restaraunt and cocktal lounge in Chama? That way they could offer round trips.
Antonito to Chama, spend the night in their motel, have a nice dinner, chew the fat with fellow trains enthuasists in the loung, then ride the train back to Antonito the next day.
Round trip train ride and motel room included in the price. Food-n-booze on you. I do it in a heart beat, lol.
Just a silly thought (I have lots of those).

Ben

bendorsey said:

I was thinking about this a little while ago and got to wondering.

How many folks ride the C&T from Antonito to Chama and take the bus back compared to how many ride it from Chama to Antonito and take the bus back.
Alamosa isn't that far from Antonito but Chama is sort of out in the middle of nowhere so I wonder of there is considerably more traffic in one direction then the other.

Might it be worth the C&T's while to buy or build a nice motel with accompanying restaraunt and cocktal lounge in Chama? That way they could offer round trips.
Antonito to Chama, spend the night in their motel, have a nice dinner, chew the fat with fellow trains enthuasists in the loung, then ride the train back to Antonito the next day.
Round trip train ride and motel room included in the price. Food-n-booze on you. I do it in a heart beat, lol.
Just a silly thought (I have lots of those).

Ben

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Well, why don't you contact them and put the idea up to them?

Vern said:

Thinking back to our trip there, fairly certain we stayed at the Best Western in Durango. Not too bad and only about a five minute walk to the station.

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I stayed at The Strater on the main drag. It was okay for putting the head down at night and I could see the rail line from the room so caught the train passing each day. I can't say the cocktails or breakfast was up to much (not at the same time of course).

I did take a wander round the rail museum but was unaware they did guided walks. There wasn't really anyone around, except in the ticket hall.

Ya should have tried the Ore House. Good grub-n-grog (hic).

There was a sign in the souviner shop advertising the shop tour. No idea if the sign is still there or if they still give shop tours. Were only 3 people on the tour I took so it may have been discontinued for lack of interest. Was quite interesting.

As for the motel/round trip idea I find it hard to believe some bean counter (accountant) hasn't thought of it years ago. Revenue is the bottom line and I'd think that depends on weather the C&T runs year round. I know the D&S only goes to cascade canyon in the winter. Does the C&T run all the way (end to end) in the winter? La Veta pass is somewhere around 11,000 ft (I think) and might restrict operations in the dead of winter. No round trips for part of the year would put a definite dent in the motel ideas bottom line.

Ben

Don't worry, I tried plenty of other places in Durango for food and drink. Eno does great cocktails (I visited a couple of times), Old Timers for a great burger and beer, Chimayo for Italian. Durango's a great place if you don't want to drive, pretty much everything you need no further than a 15 minute walk.

The D&S was on the winter schedule when I was there last April. We decided not to take the trip to Cascade Canyon though as my wife was poorly.

Cheers,
Innis

Did you have a buffalo burger? I did and couldn't tell the difference. Rocky Mountain Trout was delish. Couldn't get my nerve up to try the Elk. I'm not much for venison and figured Elk was quite similar. I've since heard that might not be true.

Durango is a nice little town. Soon as I win the lottery (yeah right, lol) I'm moving there (as long as I an find a house where I can watch the trains go by).

Ben

The C&T is owned by the states of New Mexico and Colorado.

bendorsey said:

Did you have a buffalo burger?

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To be honest, I can't remember though it could well have been, given it's not something I'd get over here, washed down with a beer or three. Was at the end of a drive from Monument Valley which was thirsty work!

Weirdly enough, got the best coffee I tasted in the states at a bistro in the back arse of beyond in Utah en route to Durango.

Innis