Steam Locomotive Operating "Tips"

chris2001trainz2010 said:

So i've run into some issues...there are four values i can't figure out.

All four of those values are (or may be) wrong for this locomotive, and i don't exactly know what they mean. I figured out what "Bore" and "Stroke" mean, but calculating them requires information i don't think i have...if anyone could help me find out what these values would be for skipper1945's 2251 Class 0-6-0 then i'd at least be able to test the values the spreadsheet throws back at me.

Click to expand...

A source I use when I can't find detailed info on a loco I'm working on is here. Click on the Terminal and look for Standard steam locomotives. Then find your railroad under the country it is/was located in. As Malc pointed out wikipedia has info on many clases now. But it's good to have several sources to check.

[EDIT] Off course Prof. Smith doesn't include data for the 51xx class in the link I referenced. Malc's reference doesn't indicated if 51xx had superheaters. I'm pretty sure some did.

Bob Pearson

RPearson said:

[EDIT] Off course Prof. Smith doesn't include data for the 51xx class in the link I referenced. Malc's reference doesn't indicated if 51xx had superheaters. I'm pretty sure some did.

Bob Pearson

Click to expand...

Superheating from 1909 according to this http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_262.htm Includes specs at the bottom.

Bob,

My specs have the power output pretty well spot on using real world data. Because dampers are not simulated in Trainz then controlling boiler pressure become difficult and my solution to this was to have a lower fire temperature and rely on the blower a bit. It should not be necessary when driving though, only when stationary.

There was a change for TS12 SP1 which made a mess of things. There's a post on here somewhere from back then where Zec explained what had been altered, but it lead to me altering the boiler efficiency tags and reducing steam-chest-max-flow to get the performance back to where it should be for loco's I'm familiar with. The min-fire-temp had to be raised as well to prevent the catastrophic pressure loss the OP is experiencing.

My only experience of Billegulla's spread sheet was testing an engine spec for an 0-6-0 Austerity on a prototypical route I am familiar with. It hauled a 1000 ton train quite happily at 40mph over gradients that make a modern 3300hp diesel electric grunt.

Anthony

Thanks for the replies Malc and Anthony. Bill's spread sheet is for those who don't know much about the process and want an espec that will at least run in the game with not much effort involved. I don't use it and I looked into it a lot but I have my own programs. Bill varies the swept volume ratio as a function of drive wheel diameter. I think it should be closer to a constant value for all locos which leads me to thinking there is a problem in the coding or theory used in the game's simulation.

He sets the R parameter to match a known maximum HP produced by the loco - that's good. And ignores all the efficiency params and set them to 1.0 - not so good. He uses the R value as an input into some formulas he's determined empirically to calculate many of the parameters in the espec.

You'll get an espec that runs but doesn't necessarily represent your specific loco that well. With some testing I think you can improve that so I view Bill's work as a starting point for those who need one. I see a lot of people just grab another espec from what they think is a similar loco and get worse performance. Don't forget drive wheel dia determines TE at the rail and steam consumption - as in power strokes per mile. That's all taken into consideration when making an espec. They have to match up.

TE and power output for locomotives is no 1 IMO. I think you're kind of wasting your time if you don't have that.

As to steam flow I had this argument with N3V long ago. We can calculate the steam flow to the cylinders pretty accurately for any loco and that's the value I use. If I start to reduce the max flow in the espec I eventually get a nice power curve or TE vs speed that looks like the typical steam loco composite power curve. But that curve is essentially set by the max flow param and not the cutoff settings. With this approach what we're simulating is an earlier era when steam flow was mostly self regulating due to the extremely poor flow characteristics of the piping and valves. In the extreme we get locos that never run out of water/steam and the safeties are running continuously.

Where I think starving the front end of steam doesn't work at all is at the low speed range where the cutoff is usually near max, in this setting you can get very high TE in the game - much higher than physically possible in any real loco. This is what both Bill and I saw in our independent testing. Wheel slip under default settings kicks in and we are forced to run on either reduced cutoff or throttle or both which hides the problem/defect but it's there and solutions are limited and not ones you'd ordinarily want to choose.

One last point. When I test locos I reset the wheel slip to essentially 0. I get a true measure of the locos performance. I can then set the parameters to produce the correct TE/power output for all speed ranges. When I'm done I reset the wheel slip to default settings and it behaves in a realistic fashion. In the US a lot of locos particularly freight could open the throttle and cutoff slowly to near full and not experience the wheel slip I see in the game. That's how a lot of pushers operated. Passenger locos are another story. If you're testing with the default wheel slip setting in game I don't think the especs you get are a good measure of the real loco's performance. If the loco is slippery it will slip using my espec.


I leave you with a final question to ask yourself. Why has it taken N3V over 2 years and continued excuses and still no steam locos are allowed on the new TEST TRACK feature in TANE? I though that was a promissed feature but I'm old and apparently easily confused by shiny objects. And it's not that it too hard to record and plot out a few parameters. They did it for the diesels over 2 years ago. I record them for both steam and diesel with custom scripts in game and post process in my programs and have been for many years prior to TANE.

Apologies to the OP as this is probably well beyond a response to the original question.

Bob Pearson

Might I please add my (novice) concerns on this topic?

Can anyone shed any light on maintaining and/or rebuilding steam pressure that does (or should) work for a number of different steam locomotives, specifically:-
Norfolk and Western - Type Y3, Y6B and J.
Chesapeake & Ohio - Type G7, H5, H8 and K4.
I have spent more than a few hours at the controls of all of the above locomotives on the N&W Appalachian Coal Routes (Trains Simulator (Mac) & TS12) and the C&O Hinton Division (TANE 1/2). I've successfully completed all the set routes in these programmes and have "driven" even more hours on both systems in QuickDrive sessions. I accept that all these locomotives have their differences and that the mode of driving has to be modified with each but the most difficult factor with the majority seems to be rebuilding lost steam pressure.
The prescribed remedy appears to be that of operating the blower (N to open; N/Shift to close; all x 6 for the full open/close operation) to simulate a forced draught over the fire and increase heat/steam production.
Fine, except that in TANE 2 using the C&O type G7 2-8-0, operating the blower by this method results in a "fire door open - two shovels full coal - fire door close" sequence together with a 5 to 10% increase in the HUD coal reading. Keep repeating this activity and the HUD coal reading can be built up to 195%!!!!! Not too surprisingly steam pressure continues to fall. I have found that the only satisfactory remedy for this was to attach a C&O H5 2-8-8-2 to the front of the G7 and its consist and then drag the offender for about 10 miles after which the accumulated coal has burnt through and sufficient steam has been raised for it to proceed under its own power.
Although I've never lost steam with an H5, I have attempted to operate the blower as above with absolutely no response from this locomotive type whatsoever. I have lost steam on numerous occasions with the Y6B and in my frustration, have resorted to simply cancelling the loco and reloading a replacement.
I have read numerous Forum letters on this and related subjects and while the idea of learning how to retune a Steam Locomotive Engine Spec seems a fascinating prospect for the future, I am naively hoping that someone might be able to suggest a more simple solution.
Thank you and apologies for butting in

pitmilly said:

Might I please add my (novice) concerns on this topic?

Can anyone shed any light on maintaining and/or rebuilding steam pressure that does (or should) work for a number of different steam locomotives, specifically:-
Norfolk and Western - Type Y3, Y6B and J.
Chesapeake & Ohio - Type G7, H5, H8 and K4.
I have spent more than a few hours at the controls of all of the above locomotives on the N&W Appalachian Coal Routes (Trains Simulator (Mac) & TS12) and the C&O Hinton Division (TANE 1/2). I've successfully completed all the set routes in these programmes and have "driven" even more hours on both systems in QuickDrive sessions. I accept that all these locomotives have their differences and that the mode of driving has to be modified with each but the most difficult factor with the majority seems to be rebuilding lost steam pressure.
The prescribed remedy appears to be that of operating the blower (N to open; N/Shift to close; all x 6 for the full open/close operation) to simulate a forced draught over the fire and increase heat/steam production.
Fine, except that in TANE 2 using the C&O type G7 2-8-0, operating the blower by this method results in a "fire door open - two shovels full coal - fire door close" sequence together with a 5 to 10% increase in the HUD coal reading. Keep repeating this activity and the HUD coal reading can be built up to 195%!!!!! Not too surprisingly steam pressure continues to fall. I have found that the only satisfactory remedy for this was to attach a C&O H5 2-8-8-2 to the front of the G7 and its consist and then drag the offender for about 10 miles after which the accumulated coal has burnt through and sufficient steam has been raised for it to proceed under its own power.
Although I've never lost steam with an H5, I have attempted to operate the blower as above with absolutely no response from this locomotive type whatsoever. I have lost steam on numerous occasions with the Y6B and in my frustration, have resorted to simply cancelling the loco and reloading a replacement.
I have read numerous Forum letters on this and related subjects and while the idea of learning how to retune a Steam Locomotive Engine Spec seems a fascinating prospect for the future, I am naively hoping that someone might be able to suggest a more simple solution.
Thank you and apologies for butting in

Click to expand...

Hi pitmilly,

Loss of boiler pressure can be caused by many things, from driving with too much cutoff to too much load, or to the e-spec itself.
For many locos there is no option except rebuilding the e-spec.
If you give some kuid numbers and specific problems with each I might be able to help.

Cheers,
Bill69.

Hello Bill,

Many thanks for your interest and for the kind and very generous offer. I shall now put together some detail and user background on say 3 or 4 of the most popular in the pack and get back to you in say 2/3 days with some workable information. Will this be OK? Again, many thanks.

regards

john Webster (Pitmilly)

pitmilly said:

Hello Bill,

Many thanks for your interest and for the kind and very generous offer. I shall now put together some detail and user background on say 3 or 4 of the most popular in the pack and get back to you in say 2/3 days with some workable information. Will this be OK? Again, many thanks.

regards

john Webster (Pitmilly)

Click to expand...

Yes Fine John.

Bill

First, Kuid numbers as detailed in my "Manage Content" folder, TANE 2, build 88364:-
1. Built In - C&O G7 2-8-0 - Loco - K:45588:4894>: Tender - K:45588:4893>
2. Built In - Chesapeake&O - H5 2-8-8-2 - Loco - K:45588:2102> - Tender - K:45588:2120>
3. Payware - C&O - H8 2-6-6-0 - Loco and T - K:2:661281:100035:1>
Two other variants of this loco type are listed in my folder - Late and Early versions:-
K:2:453099:100924:5> and K2:453099:100502:5>
4. D-L-S - N&W - Y3 2-8-8-2 - loco - K2:123250:100150:1> - tender - K2:123250:100156:1>
5. D-L-S - N&W - Y6B 2-8-8-2 - loco - K2:523:1972911:2> - tender - K2:523:1972919:1>
also 2 locomotives downloaded from a "retiring" builder:-
6. Baldwin - 2-10-0 - loco - K:96914:4872> - tender - K:96914:4873>
7. Baldwin - 2-8-2 - loco - K:96914:4880> - tender - K:96914:4881>

To recap on the events which finally prompted my mailing:-
3 Consecutive "QuickDrive" Sessions - using "Realistic Mode" of driving control
consist - C&O G7 plus two - later five coaches
Run - Quinnamont/Prince/Sanaford - reverse direction - Sanaford/Prince/Quinnamont - turn consist on "wye". Run - Quinnamont/Prince (pick up 3 more coaches)/Thurmond - turn and water locomotive - recouple to 5 coaches. Run - Thurmond/Newlyn 1/Newlyn 2/Redstar/Price Hill Junction/WhiteOak/Oakwood/Summerlee - use C&O H5 Mallet to move coaches and release loco to enable use of turntable - recouple G7 to five coaches. Run - Summerlee/Oakwood/WhiteOak/Price Hill Junction - RUN OUT OF STEAM - OPEN BLOWER (N x ?) - COAL READING BUILDS UP TO 195% - BOILER STEAM PRESSURE - ZILTCH!!!!!!!. Bring H5 down from Summerlee - couple to G7 (regulator and cut-off set to 0%)and coaches and Run Price Hill/Redstar/Newlyn 2. Uncouple H5 (G7 steam pressure now about 45psi - coal reading still at 140%). Run G7 plus coaches - Newlyn 2/Newlyn1 (take on coal - tender empty)/Thurmond. Reverse into Depot, park coaches in sidings, move loco onto shed. From memory, steam pressure was then about 60psi and coal reading around 125%.
All told, I probably ran something like 80/90 miles over these three sessions. There are some significant climbs between 1.5 and 3% on both the Prince to Sanaford and the Thurmond to Price Hill sections of these routes but the locomotive managed these grades and its load without any real difficulty. Significantly, the steam loss occurred on a fairly level/downhill section after a relatively short interval where the loco was either being turned or was stationery and it is following this type of prototypical inactivity which in my experience, is when steam pressure loss seems most prevalent in many of the Trainz steam locomotive stock. I will also admit that when first driving Quinnamont Coal Drag, also New River Mining Run, I have run short of steam after having to reposition the heavy consist to achieve the session's objectives.
I'm sure these steam losses are typical of that which occurred in the prototype but I don't seem to be able to access their remedies
If you are able to do anything or point me in a direction that will improve my enjoyment of any of these loco's, shall be very grateful. My priorities would be the G7 and the H5.
Bill, in addition to this reply to you, I am also going write a new line on this subject and float some related queries out to a wider world. I'm sure you will have the answers but it didn't seem fair to incorporate it all in this reply and load my concerns solely on your yourself.
regards
John

pitmilly said:

Bill

First, Kuid numbers as detailed in my "Manage Content" folder, TANE 2, build 88364:-
1. Built In - C&O G7 2-8-0 - Loco - K:45588:4894>: Tender - K:45588:4893>
2. Built In - Chesapeake&O - H5 2-8-8-2 - Loco - K:45588:2102> - Tender - K:45588:2120>
3. Payware - C&O - H8 2-6-6-0 - Loco and T - K:2:661281:100035:1>
Two other variants of this loco type are listed in my folder - Late and Early versions:-
K:2:453099:100924:5> and K2:453099:100502:5>
4. D-L-S - N&W - Y3 2-8-8-2 - loco - K2:123250:100150:1> - tender - K2:123250:100156:1>
5. D-L-S - N&W - Y6B 2-8-8-2 - loco - K2:523:1972911:2> - tender - K2:523:1972919:1>
also 2 locomotives downloaded from a "retiring" builder:-
6. Baldwin - 2-10-0 - loco - K:96914:4872> - tender - K:96914:4873>
7. Baldwin - 2-8-2 - loco - K:96914:4880> - tender - K:96914:4881>

To recap on the events which finally prompted my mailing:-
3 Consecutive "QuickDrive" Sessions - using "Realistic Mode" of driving control
consist - C&O G7 plus two - later five coaches
Run - Quinnamont/Prince/Sanaford - reverse direction - Sanaford/Prince/Quinnamont - turn consist on "wye". Run - Quinnamont/Prince (pick up 3 more coaches)/Thurmond - turn and water locomotive - recouple to 5 coaches. Run - Thurmond/Newlyn 1/Newlyn 2/Redstar/Price Hill Junction/WhiteOak/Oakwood/Summerlee - use C&O H5 Mallet to move coaches and release loco to enable use of turntable - recouple G7 to five coaches. Run - Summerlee/Oakwood/WhiteOak/Price Hill Junction - RUN OUT OF STEAM - OPEN BLOWER (N x ?) - COAL READING BUILDS UP TO 195% - BOILER STEAM PRESSURE - ZILTCH!!!!!!!. Bring H5 down from Summerlee - couple to G7 (regulator and cut-off set to 0%)and coaches and Run Price Hill/Redstar/Newlyn 2. Uncouple H5 (G7 steam pressure now about 45psi - coal reading still at 140%). Run G7 plus coaches - Newlyn 2/Newlyn1 (take on coal - tender empty)/Thurmond. Reverse into Depot, park coaches in sidings, move loco onto shed. From memory, steam pressure was then about 60psi and coal reading around 125%.
All told, I probably ran something like 80/90 miles over these three sessions. There are some significant climbs between 1.5 and 3% on both the Prince to Sanaford and the Thurmond to Price Hill sections of these routes but the locomotive managed these grades and its load without any real difficulty. Significantly, the steam loss occurred on a fairly level/downhill section after a relatively short interval where the loco was either being turned or was stationery and it is following this type of prototypical inactivity which in my experience, is when steam pressure loss seems most prevalent in many of the Trainz steam locomotive stock. I will also admit that when first driving Quinnamont Coal Drag, also New River Mining Run, I have run short of steam after having to reposition the heavy consist to achieve the session's objectives.
I'm sure these steam losses are typical of that which occurred in the prototype but I don't seem to be able to access their remedies
If you are able to do anything or point me in a direction that will improve my enjoyment of any of these loco's, shall be very grateful. My priorities would be the G7 and the H5.
Bill, in addition to this reply to you, I am also going write a new line on this subject and float some related queries out to a wider world. I'm sure you will have the answers but it didn't seem fair to incorporate it all in this reply and load my concerns solely on your yourself.
regards
John

Click to expand...

Hi John,

I will not be able to do any mods on built in or payware locos, they are normally locked, and it would be illegal for payware anyway.

I will have a look at the DLS locos and possibly upload a new e-spec but you will have to download and install the new e-spec yourself to keep it legal.

I notice some locos are by bdaneal, these I can modify and send to you as I have permission from Ben.


Cheers,
Bill

Very many thanks, Bill. It's much appreciated.

John