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Thread: Progress on the Uintah RW

  1. #31
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    I have found that a rail line is not a steady 1.75%, from one end to another ... instead it is a series of subtle increasing/decreasing rises and falls, subtle leaps and dips, sometimes 0.00%, then the next +0.10%, the next -0.10%, the next 0.00%, the next +0.10% then the next +0.25% ... etc ...

  2. #32
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    Gradients and Trainz? I have come to the conclusion you are never going to get them 100% correct due to the fact that the earth is round and Trainz is flat, so I use creative license to get the gradients to fit the dem where practical and where not I manually adjust the terrain extremely carefully so it still looks natural which is time consuming but worth the effort. My Ffestiniog Route was done using Microdem and consequently needed a lot of manual alteration! Didn't know of TransDem when I originally started the route in TS2009 back in 2008!

    Your route is looking very good to me, ignore the critics!
    Last edited by clam1952; June 3rd, 2017 at 07:32 AM.
    Malc


  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascaderailroad View Post
    I have found that a rail line is not a steady 1.75%, from one end to another ... instead it is a series of subtle increasing/decreasing rises and falls, subtle leaps and dips, sometimes 0.00%, then the next +0.10%, the next -0.10%, the next 0.00%, the next +0.10% then the next +0.25% ... etc ...
    of course,there are going to be variations, where its an issue is that the terrain in google earth indicates a higher grade than the ruling grade. a few places where it would be 12 percent if GE is accurate . problem is the railbed is now a road and of course they may have made parts of it much steeper and also removed trestles and fills in some cases.
    recreating an 80 year old route is impossible to be 100% accurate, but will try and make it as close as possible.
    it appears about 2 sections of this part of baxter pass are less than 7.5 percent , but I now have it mostly in place still a section that transdem made lower by 8 metres, but only a small section .
    most of this section is sitting on fills so its less of an issue than it appears to be, i just have to build it up behind the parts that are too low. i did end up about 100 metres out as i duplicated two sets of curves at first, i can zoom out google earth far more than TANE so sometimes its hard to check a long stretch of track in aerial view as it starts fading out before you can see it all. this is probably the hardest section to do in the pass , above this it clings to the hillside a lot more. its all accurate to within a few feet so quite happy with it so far.
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by clam1952 View Post
    Gradients and Trainz? I have come to the conclusion you are never going to get them 100% correct due to the fact that the earth is round and Trainz is flat, so I use creative license to get the gradients to fit the dem where practical and where not I manually adjust the terrain extremely carefully so it still looks natural which is time consuming but worth the effort. My Ffestiniog Route was done using Microdem and consequently needed a lot of manual alteration! Didn't know of TransDem when I originally started the route in TS2009 back in 2008!

    Your route is looking very good to me, ignore the critics!
    its also a drag when you set a grade, then make a minor tweak to track and then have to reset it again, also, the gradient tool
    usually works well, but not always, after about 6 application it seems to go rogue and becomes unreliable. every now and again i find a section that is 28.6 percent, most annoying , it does this randomly ! dontch'a just love TANE's little peccadillo's ?
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by geophil View Post
    What's your DEM data source? It looks a bit low-res to me. Best resolution available for this part of CO appears to be 1/3 arc sec, 10m, according to the National Map Viewer. And that should show more pronounced features, I'd assume.
    its a while back,and i did a few versions using the sources recommended, some are no longer working correctly , i could not download the resource, ( and dont ask for the particulars , whatever they were has now disappeared from what passes as my memory ) so had to look for others that might not have had the best information.
    this was the best i could make it given my limited knowledge and confusing ( to me ) info on the map sites i was visiting , i guess i gave myself a lot more work then i needed to, but there no way I can do it again as i've put so much work into this version.
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by dangavel View Post
    its a while back,and i did a few versions using the sources recommended, some are no longer working correctly , i could not download the resource, ( and dont ask for the particulars , whatever they were has now disappeared from what passes as my memory ) so had to look for others that might not have had the best information.
    I tried myself last night. I opened the USGS download viewer, picked the 1/3 arc sec DEM and some 1960s 1:24,000 topo maps from the historical map collection. The download viewer is quite easy to use in the current version. And no emails anymore for the links.

    The railway is gone, even in the 1960s map. So, the road is the main clue for the former right-of-way. Since it's a small road, it's not very prominent on the map. The 1/3 arc sec DEM translates to a 10m grid, nominally. The road, however, does not leave any marks. I think it has to do with the way these DEMs were produced: from 1:24,000 topo maps. Compare the contour lines on the map with the TransDEM ones, about the same level of detail.



    I generated terrain and ground textures for Trainz and positioned myself to about the same spot where you took your screenshot above, below summit, looking south. In your screenshot the ground texturing looks quite blurred, so it's hard to tell whether my terrain is more pronounced or the same as yours. In any way it is still significantly below true hi-res you would get from LIDAR DEMs. So, I'm afraid, it's manually shaping of cuttings and fills.



    Since USGS publishes all DEM data they have, and USGS is the relevant DEM data source for the US, it's very unlikely that Google Earth has access to any different source. It means, you hardly get more precision from there. In the past they used orbital SRTM, well below USGS NED standards. That may have changed, of course.

  7. #37

    Thumbs up

    Good Evening Sir,,

    I read your comments on getting as close to true measurements, height etc, your Mapping looks great, as far as 100% accuracy, we would all like that, But so far, I don't think there is anyone that has come that close? I could be wrong, I have been before, but it seems to me you are going to do your very best, and that's all we can expect, but in my Eye, your Route looks picture perfect, love the Mountain Grades and Slopes, if only mine looked even a smidgen as great as yours, and those Scenery Items, Baxter Pass etc.

    It will be an adventure to see how your route continues to evolve. Really enjoying the Breathtaking pictures.

    Would add that one of my nemeses in Trainz, T:ANE, doesn't matter, getting those Grades drawn in correctly, is a PAIN in !@#$%^&, I find myself going back numerous times in some spots to adjust the % so it gradual rather than abrupt where possible. I hate derailments or loss of Controlled Braking going down a sleep Grade Etc. Getting those Curves just right, well it is definitely art that's for sure.

    I bid you well in your massive endeavor.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by geophil View Post
    I tried myself last night. I opened the USGS download viewer, picked the 1/3 arc sec DEM and some 1960s 1:24,000 topo maps from the historical map collection. The download viewer is quite easy to use in the current version. And no emails anymore for the links.

    The railway is gone, even in the 1960s map. So, the road is the main clue for the former right-of-way. Since it's a small road, it's not very prominent on the map. The 1/3 arc sec DEM translates to a 10m grid, nominally. The road, however, does not leave any marks. I think it has to do with the way these DEMs were produced: from 1:24,000 topo maps. Compare the contour lines on the map with the TransDEM ones, about the same level of detail.



    I generated terrain and ground textures for Trainz and positioned myself to about the same spot where you took your screenshot above, below summit, looking south. In your screenshot the ground texturing looks quite blurred, so it's hard to tell whether my terrain is more pronounced or the same as yours. In any way it is still significantly below true hi-res you would get from LIDAR DEMs. So, I'm afraid, it's manually shaping of cuttings and fills.



    Since USGS publishes all DEM data they have, and USGS is the relevant DEM data source for the US, it's very unlikely that Google Earth has access to any different source. It means, you hardly get more precision from there. In the past they used orbital SRTM, well below USGS NED standards. That may have changed, of course.
    i did spend quite a lot to effort into trying to make a better map, as you say theres not much info in this area, , some sources probably had a bit more accurate top info, but then lacked any reference points such as places which made it very difficult to place the old ghost towns etc ,.

    i too doubt google earths accuracy, but its useful to at least work out a rough height,whewre possible i'm also checking against video and photos, , I can
    see items such as small hills that the maps haven't indicated as well as the creek banks, which are very heavily eroded and this doesn't translate to the maps at all. theres about 45 miles of creeks in total , almost as big a task as making the railroad track and fills.
    thanks for your help, although i appear to criticise transdem i think its an amazing tool , imagine how many years it would take to generate accurately a hand made map of this route. !
    Last edited by dangavel; June 5th, 2017 at 03:53 AM.
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

  9. #39
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    Some more new images from the china wall mine utilising Ben's gilsonite loader which he has now animated ,. a truck form one of the other mines nearby is just arriving with a gilsonite load for transport to Mack and trasfer there to the DRGW standard gauge cars .
    Its a rainy day which helps hide the flaws in the cut into the cliff, which is incomplete ( as is the entire route ) .This feature is going to be tricky to make look like the prototype as these gilsonite cuts are only about 6/8 feet wide. this stops me using dig holes as they are too wide, cranking the topography tool can get a deep cut which is fairly narrow, but it is not vertical and the cliff splines are not vertical either. i have some ideas about dropping in stone walls . however although these are vertical they are generally too symmetrical to blend into the cliffs effectively. i do not want to use payware items , anyone got any better ideas on how to achieve a deep vertical cut with cliffs around it ? .
    there are about 5 mines so i need to work a way out to make a truly narrow deep cut which will take a tramline .

    there were also lots of primitive wooden hoists that were used to drag bags up from the deep cuts, Ben has made one and there are some others that he may be able to make too. visible here is his 'phone on a pole' which was used in almost all of these mines





  10. #40
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    returned to baxter pass , now just past shale siding , probably one
    of the steepest sidings ever.


    track is now more or less laid from right down the bottom of the valley




    this was the part that was about 8 meters too low originally .
    now further up the slope and finding a lot more of the route is not continually 7.5 percent.
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

  11. #41
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    That looks like it is going to be quite a ride, thanks Dan.
    Dear Missouri,
    Thank you for sending us all your intelligent women.
    With Love,
    California.

  12. #42

    Question Strange white lines shown in Todays Pictures?

    Good Day dangavel,

    In msg #40, I see some kind of white lines next to your engine and several white narrow lines going in several different directions along the Hill Top?

    May I inquire what they are, are they a Ruler of sort, do you use them for elevation changes?

    I had seen this on some others layouts in the past........Your pictures just jogged my memory that I didn't know or understand what they are.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueodessey View Post
    Good Day dangavel,

    In msg #40, I see some kind of white lines next to your engine and several white narrow lines going in several different directions along the Hill Top?

    May I inquire what they are, are they a Ruler of sort, do you use them for elevation changes?

    I had seen this on some others layouts in the past........Your pictures just jogged my memory that I didn't know or understand what they are.
    hi blue, because TANE's built in rulers have ceased to work i'm using the 100 ft ruler and 50ft ruler asset. very handy tool .its height adjustable. the only downside is their spline points can lock with track/ if you search dls and look for rulers,its easy to find , theres also a vertical one thats very good .if you zoom in you can see divisions on the ruler , so they can be as accurate as the built in rulers and they never disappear :-)
    there are also mile and half mile rulers, but these are flakey in TANE and have a rotten habit of disappearing just when you need them !
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

  14. #44

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by dangavel View Post
    hi blue, because TANE's built in rulers have ceased to work i'm using the 100 ft ruler and 50ft ruler asset. very handy tool .its height adjustable. the only downside is their spline points can lock with track/ if you search dls and look for rulers,its easy to find , theres also a vertical one thats very good .if you zoom in you can see divisions on the ruler , so they can be as accurate as the built in rulers and they never disappear :-)
    there are also mile and half mile rulers, but these are flakey in TANE and have a rotten habit of disappearing just when you need them !
    Thank you sir,

    Works for me and height adjustable will really come in handy so I don't have to keep going back to get a measurement readings in certain areas of my route when I need absolute heights markers for Detail stuff.

    Thank you for the warnings with said Assets, never a dull moment in Trainz, surprises when you least expect it?

  15. #45
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    Track laying is now up the top of the south side of baxter pass, the "lone tree" curve stretch .i'm posting this to give an idea of the terrain on this stretch and what the 7.5 percent grade looks like
    May i stress THIS IS NOT COMPLETE,other than the grade is mostly 7.5 and the curves placement of the track and alignment are correct up to about 10 feet of the original /current road placement, length/distance from other definable objects has been measured against google earth satellite maps.















    this is what a 7.5 grade looks like from the side.....
    Last edited by dangavel; June 14th, 2017 at 05:29 AM.
    WARNING! The Surgeon General has determined that the use of the simulator Trainz is highly addictive,

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