Off topic: Oculus

VR is a whole lot less interesting if you can't move around.

chris

Not sure how much movement you can get we did all our sessions seated so we wouldn't fall over or off something in the real world.
I nearly fell of a stool trying to reach something in one session & with a headset on you don't know where to grab to save yourself if you loose balance.
Its like falling in total blackness you don't know weather to try and save yourself or get the headset off for the best outcum
The biggest problem with moving is you have no idea where you are or which way you are facing as there is no reference point to where you began
But for cab driving it should be fine not sure how surveyor would go.
You could walk off the end of a baseboard
 
Its like falling in total blackness you don't know weather to try and save yourself or get the headset off for the best outcum
The biggest problem with moving is you have no idea where you are or which way you are facing as there is no reference point to where you began

Sounds like you've been playing with the Oculus. The Vive has a solution for this - the "chaperone" virtual walls which appear in your view if you get too close to the edge of your designated play area. Oculus is also working on an equivalent technology, so I think we can treat this as a solved problem. Of course, it doesn't help you with falling off a stool that you can't see- if you're going to play seated then I'd definitely recommend a suitable chair that you're not going to fall out of. Relative to the Oculus, the Vive also discourages seated gameplay so this is less of an issue.

I've not found that falling over is an issue with either headset; The feedback is easily enough to offset any balance issue. I'm guessing that your chair issue was literally just not knowing where the chair was, rather than anything to do with balance itself. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. An exception to this would definitely be games where the virtual world is completely mismatched to the real world environment that you're in- I could imagine Windlands giving some balance issues, for example.


But for cab driving it should be fine not sure how surveyor would go.
You could walk off the end of a baseboard

I don't think that would be a major concern- there are numerous ways that we could prevent it from happening, ranging from not allowing you to get that close to the edge, to extending the terrain out to infinity. Obviously the same is true of any serious cliffs/banks within the terrain- should you hover in space, or should you fall down the cliff? Both could be fairly disconcerting experiences.

chris
 
Hell Everyone,

Thanks Chris for moving this to here -- I can now pour in my 2 cents on this issue!:wave:

I'm a huge fan of this technology, but like any other technology when it first comes out will be expensive, and with flaws ... remember beta, VHS's, but now we have ultra DVD's, and HDTC, and, Bluray, etc...

I have bought two VR's from Amazon ranging between 50 and 100 dollars -- Cheaper one's will be cheaper built, and not so reliable when using them, like bigger lenses, and rotation features, zooming in and out, etc. I guess it's up to the consumer, and your budget! But let's set back and wait as price for Oculus will definitely come down, like another product in pass history. The more VR's are introduced into the mass population, the better for the consumer. PS4 is giving them out for free, if you participate in their coupon-thing that they have. Sony is throwing their 2 cents into the arena, as Chris mentioned to me before; So, all this is good for us all.

And while this new technology keeps developing, I think trainz VR can now begin taken baby-steps! Can we expect Trainz VR next year, or the year after that, probably not, but the foundation should begin now, and I think this thread is a good start! One of these baby-steps I think could be trainz VR for the Cab, with simple basic controls to start with -- nothing fancy.

I also think that prejudging what could be, or not is not fair to the technology. Like anything else, could be your cup of tea when you try it, or not. Me, I prefer to have it, try it, and then judge it! I have VR, and I use it with my 7 inch phone, and I got many apps from skydiving to wondering through a zoo, to video games to exploring the oceans -- It really does take your there. Now, imagine seeing your own route before your eyes... you're sitting in the cab, or riding outside your train... simply. seeing your own world that you have created come alive .... I think's cool and awesome, all into one package!

I feel it's a matter of time before the population catch up with VR technie, and when it does prices for the much better technology will come down. I think next generation game consoles will make a push for it, where as the PC game market will follow shortly after.

Hopefully Trainz VR will be right there!

Ish :)
 
Surveyor is much more of a question mark. Jerking the camera around at above the speed of sound sounds like a quick recipe for nausea. We'd need to really rethink how you interact. A first-person view with teleports might work but is perhaps a bit limiting. Viewing the route scaled down so that you can walk around in the small VR play area and still cover a reasonable amount of in-game distance might work better perhaps?

I can't speak for an Oculus, and I think this is more of a hardware point, but if ones computer isn't powerful enough one gets some delay in parts of the system; which is the normal cause of nausea in VR. You really need a high-end system to get smooth game play. If Trainz were to go to VR, you guys should really consider cleaning up the game so it isn't as hard on the resources as it currently is.

peter
 
Hi All,

You know I forgot to mention --

When I linked my pc to my phone using software like TrinusVR and Intugame VR, among other apps / software I was able to launch TR12, and I had surveyor right into my eyes (did not experiment with TANE since they're both installed in different PCs) -- The problem was trainz, since it's not really config to be seem in VR it lacked effectiveness, and it was just too overwhelmed for the eyes -- I think trainz VR needs to have features like zoom in / out, focusing, scrolling speed, etc .

Ish
 
I can't speak for an Oculus, and I think this is more of a hardware point, but if ones computer isn't powerful enough one gets some delay in parts of the system; which is the normal cause of nausea in VR. You really need a high-end system to get smooth game play.

It's certainly a cause of nausea. And you're certainly correct that a high-end system is a necessary part of the solution. But it's not the only cause of nausea by a long shot, and it's the one I'm least worried about since there are simple technical answers (eg. "optimise the content", "reduce the detail" and "get a faster machine").


If Trainz were to go to VR, you guys should really consider cleaning up the game so it isn't as hard on the resources as it currently is.

Trainz itself runs fairly light and takes good advantage of multiple CPU threads. It's pretty much always a GPU issue at this point to which the only real solution is to load up the GPU with less draw calls and less polygons. There are a few tricks still left in the bag that we'd like to try eventually (such as automated billboard-LOD generation, texture stitching, and hand-optimising the shaders) and still a few changes to the structure of the code to further improve threading, but at the end of the day we find that many routes can be doubled in frame rate by simply optimising the content (and that's without a complete rework of the content; just light-touch optimising what is there).

Certainly it's trivial to get Trainz above the necessary frame rates on a VR-class desktop. It comes down to an appropriate choice of routes and quality settings. You can obviously use heavier routes and raise all the settings so that you drop below the magic numbers as well, but as you note that's counterproductive in this context.


ish6 said:
I feel it's a matter of time before the population catch up with VR technie, and when it does prices for the much better technology will come down.


Completely agreed. I would ask everyone reading this thread to do me a favor- if you have regular access to an oculus or a vive, post here and let us know. I do want to keep some rough tabs on adoption within the Trainz community- while it's fun to talk about this tech and maybe dabble a little, there's obviously little point in us getting invested as a company while our users don't have the necessary hardware. If that starts changing, then I'd be very interested to know about it.

chris
 
Hi Everybody.
Undoubtedly the Google Daydream VR headset will be the one to beat as this comes with the handheld controller which I feel any Trainser will realize the potential for in route building etc when watching this YouTube video.

https://youtu.be/uK7zCeKEFUM

The headset when launched will partner the new Google Pixel phones which will “not come cheap” ranging between five hundred and eight hundred dollars when they to are also launched in November. The Pixel phones will contain the Google Assistant application which will also link to the headset.

However in the above, other manufacturers are advising that they also will be launching daydream compatible phones in the next few months for those who do not mind waiting for perhaps something less expensive.

I am waiting like many for the launch of the pixel as my next phone, and would be happy to post a revue as soon as I have had a chance to test the headset with it when launched Chris.


Bill
 
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Google Daydream? How very apt, especially the Daydream bit when it comes to N3V and T:ANE!

I think N3V needs to perfect the 2D version before they even 'dream' of a 3D VR version of Trainz! Please, get real!

Good luck with Google Daydream Bill, I hope the novelty doesn't wear off too quickly for you.

Rob.
 
Hi again everybody.
Google Daydream? How very apt, especially the Daydream bit when it comes to N3V and T:ANE!


I think N3V needs to perfect the 2D version before they even 'dream' of a 3D VR version of Trainz! Please, get real!

Good luck with Google Daydream Bill, I hope the novelty doesn't wear off too quickly for you.

Rob.
Rob, it is the Pixel phone I am particularly interested in as it is being launched as Google's rival to the IPhone 7. It is the first android phone that has been directly designed by Google and they stipulated the high end hardware it will run on with HTC carrying out the manufacturing.

I am one of the lucky ones who get my phone supplied by my company and the ageing Sony Experia I have now is well overdue for replacement. I am now semiretired so I cannot wait to see the finance girl's face when I ask if it can be replaced by a Google Pixel XL (LOL).

I do not expect to see T:ane on a mobile device at present no matter how high end it is. However, a fresh android version of Trainz that would run on the new pixels and similar devices to be launched could open up once again the huge worldwide multi million Android gaming community to this hobby. If Trainz Android then also worked with the Daydream headset, then that would be some bonus.

In launching the Pixel phones Google are setting what they view as the hardware standard for Android phones made by other manufacturer's. They adopted the same policy with the Google Pixel Chromebook which is now producing great results in Chromebooks now being produced with very high end hardware by the manufacturing partners of Google.

The object of the above is to make apps easier to produce by developers. It will be interesting to see what Chris (windwlker) thinks if he returns to this thread as he advised that the range of hardware in Android devices make the development of apps difficult for small developers in the Android section of the forum a few weeks ago.

Bill
 
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Hello Everyone,

I just catch an article about Window's products, etc, and they briefly talks about their VR offer! Read below the brief statement on the subject! I can't find the site I quote from:

"Windows 10 Creators update
The free OS update releases next spring and will dive head-first into virtual reality and augmented reality, using apps that have 3D capabilities. A demo showed someone scanning a sand castle in 3D, opening it in the new MS Paint, making changes to it and checking the changes with a HoloLens virtual reality headset, then sending the file to a friend for them to see in virtual reality. Speaking of VR headsets, Microsoft said it's working on ways to make them more accessible -- read "less expensive." All of this new 3D, virtual reality content will be for naught if no one can afford to see it as it was intended to be seen."


Ish
 
It will be interesting to see what Chris (windwlker) thinks if he returns to this thread as he advised that the range of hardware in Android devices make the development of apps difficult for small developers in the Android section of the forum a few weeks ago.

No real comment at this stage. As I mentioned on that thread, we'll continue to monitor the evolution of the Android ecosystem and when we feel that things have matured enough to make it worthwhile, I'm sure we'll release a new product into that market. At the moment I would say that things are definitely improving, but they have a way to go before reaching parity with other platforms.

Daydream and its competition in the mobile space are definitely interesting and I guess we'll find out within the next few years whether they're ready or not. My personal focus is currently on desktop VR, simply because it's ready for early adopters right now. Note that I'm not making any claims about mass-market readiness, but simply noting that it's something that we can start experimenting with to work out what is and isn't viable. The mobile space tends to be some 5-10 years behind desktop in terms of capability, so it might be a little while before daydream can push some of the more detailed scenes, but of course that doesn't stop it being used with simplified scenes.

Another possibility of course is using the Daydream purely as a viewer, and still handling the heavy processing on a desktop GPU. That will be a latency question, but with the right hardware and software could possibly be achieved.

chris
 
My personal focus is currently on desktop VR, simply because it's ready for early adopters right now.
Another possibility of course is using the Daydream purely as a viewer, and still handling the heavy processing on a desktop GPU. That will be a latency question, but with the right hardware and software could possibly be achieved.

chris

Hi Chris,

Although there's 3rd party software that would allowed one's PC to be link to one's phone for VR viewing, yet this just doesn't fit the bill! I think before any real desktop VR comes into play, we must take a wait and see on how people response to VR with their PlayStation and XBOX, etc!

Nice to read that Microsoft in throwing their pennies behind this technology, tho!

Yet, I predict this VR will not be so far into the feature, tho .... :)

Take care
Ish
 
Although there's 3rd party software that would allowed one's PC to be link to one's phone for VR viewing, yet this just doesn't fit the bill! I think before any real desktop VR comes into play, we must take a wait and see on how people response to VR with their PlayStation and XBOX, etc!

It will certainly be very telling to see how PSVR is received. It's all well and good to look at a bunch of devs and enthusiasts with high-priced rigs who are willing to overlook major failings. It's a whole different thing to throw the hardware to the general public. This could be a very good thing (proving the demand for the concept) or a bad thing (releasing a technology which hasn't really reached prime-time onto the general public).

If it is received well, it will also be interesting to see what kinds of experience people prefer.

chris
 
Hi Everybody.
Chris (WindWalkr), many thanks for replying at #35 of this thread to my request for your thoughts on N3V Android development and the Daydream VR headset. Of course every business has its trading policy and that has to be respected by everyone dealing with it. However, can I comment on your above reply by way of my own thoughts and experiences.

At the turn of this millennium the Windows PC was at the revolutionary core of communication in every business and school, and had become an essential part of the vast majority of homes in developed countries. In the later years of the last decade the mobile phone began to again revolutionise how we communicated with each other. No longer did we need to be in the office or home to ring or email someone, that suddenly could be carried out from almost anywhere.

In the above Apple and Google where the main exploiters of the new technology and have extended (along now with others) the abilities of those mobile devices to included superb voice recognition, photography, document formation and of course gaming. The foregoing has meant that the need for our PCs has greatly diminished as even in our offices we now use our phones and tablets casting to large screen monitors for almost all tasks.

Of course, the devices we use for our work can also be used for our leisure and entertainment. in the foregoing, the mobile gaming market has “literally exploded” in the last five years with revenue derived from that market exceeding both the PC and console gaming market for the first time in 2015/2016.

Within the above, worldwide sales of smartphones and tablet devices running on the Android platform represent eighty seven percent of all devices sold as the following link to market share demonstrates. :- http://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-os-market-share.jsp.

I (like very many I suspect) now find my ageing windows PC little used with only two apps finding any regular attention that being Trainz versions twelve and ten along with Train simulator. I could upgrade the system to accommodate T:ane, but estimates put that cost at approximately eight hundred to one thousand pounds (British Sterling) which I find cannot be justified for a device to run just two applications.

It can be argued that the cost of a high end smartphone would be approximately the same as the above. However, that cost could be justified as the device would be with you and in use all day every day for both work and leisure. Obviously, mobile gaming does not match in any way high end PC or console gaming. However, the platform has come a long way in a few years with its graphic capability now on a par with top graphics cards of no more than three or or four years ago. To compensate for that mobile gamers have a device for instant use throughout the day wherever they are or in any few minutes they have available.

There are over 1.6 Million applications on the Google play store, so surely it has to be to N3Vs advantage to open its trading up to that environment and the 87% Android controlled share of that huge mobile gaming market.

And an app with Daydream VR compatibility would be very nice.:D
Bill


 
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However, can I comment on your above reply by way of my own thoughts and experiences.


You're more than welcome to, although this might be better off on the Android thread than the VR thread. :)


There are over 1.6 Million applications on the Google play store, so surely it has to be to N3Vs advantage to open its trading up to that environment and the 87% Android controlled share of that huge mobile gaming market.


You might think so, but we did it and it turned out that the support headaches with all of the different vendors and models and chipsets and OSes ate most of the (rather modest) profits on that platform. I'm not suggesting that it's the same for every app, but that's the way it was for Trainz.

For better or worse, iOS is substantially more profitable for us than Android. I don't get to drive home in a Ferrari (sigh), but it was a worthwhile investment and as such we've continued to release content and updates for that platform.

Android as a platform continues to mature, so I would assume that devices will continue to standardise and development and support costs will continue to drop over time. I'm not suggesting that we write the platform off entirely. But we don't have any immediate plans on Android.

chris
 
Android as a platform continues to mature, so I would assume that devices will continue to standardise and development and support costs will continue to drop over time.

And not spontaneously combust ;) *


* I realise that Samsung Note 7 products are not representative of the whole Android eco-system.
 
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