Off topic: Oculus

WindWalkr

Administrator
Hi all,

Just wondering whether anybody in the community uses an Oculus headset (or a Vive for that matter). If so I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on a few things. Feel free to PM me if you're not a TrainzDev member. Feel free to pass this message on if you know somebody in the greater Trainz community who has the hardware.

cheers,

chris
 
Hi Chris,

I have not used the equipment directly, however, I saw some in action at a trade-show via a large screen monitor.

Being one that has nearly constant vertigo, this was definitely not something for me! The few seconds I watched the demonstration on the screen, it caused the world to spin around me and I turned pale as I was about to pass out. Would this be for other people? Sure maybe those that are young and can afford the hardware. The Oculus, as you know, is not a cheap toy. These things run in the $500 USD range which puts them out of reach for most except for those extreme enthusiasts.

What N3V might want to look into, however, is Microsoft's HoloLens. This is quite a nifty device as it puts the computer programs right into the user's environment. Imagine building a route with baseboards laid out on the parlor floor and being able to move assets around with you hands. Imagine driving and reaching up to maneuver the controls rather than hitting keys on a keyboard or fiddling with a mouse!

I know this doesn't answer your question directly, but is more of my thoughts on the subject. Sorry I don't know of anyone who can afford one of these things either.
 
What N3V might want to look into, however, is Microsoft's HoloLens. This is quite a nifty device as it puts the computer programs right into the user's environment. Imagine building a route with baseboards laid out on the parlor floor and being able to move assets around with you hands. Imagine driving and reaching up to maneuver the controls rather than hitting keys on a keyboard or fiddling with a mouse!

Yeah. That's even more expensive currently, but obviously prices will come down over time as this moves from being an experimental technology to something more mainstream. I suspect that in the longer term, AR and VR will merge into a single technology with multiple use-cases. I can certainly visualise some awesome uses for the HoloLens, and as you say- it works around the nausea problem quite neatly.

chris
 
I used one in a museum in Bruges (Belgium) where the illusion had you perched on top of a sailing ship mast. As one who suffers just a little from vertigo I recall having a moment of panic which quickly passed and I enjoyed the experience. When the early versions of Quake came out I didn't much like the "floating" sensation of running through caves, etc. The brain quickly adapts.

My initial thoughts on reading the original post was that it would be very cool in cab views. My second thought was how does one build models for this?

The costs will come down once the market takes off.
 
Does a Google Cardboard-Solution also work? :D


Wasn't that much comfortable, but worked. And it's a cheap solution to have a look into VR-stuff...
 
Does a Google Cardboard-Solution also work? :D


Wasn't that much comfortable, but worked. And it's a cheap solution to have a look into VR-stuff...

Google has Daydream now, which is another step in the right direction. Not quite in the same league as the rift / vive but it shows that there are alternatives, and might be more practical for a lot of people. It will be interesting to see if somebody manages to do decent hand tracking with a mobile device.

At this stage my attention is on the rift and vive - not because I think that's what will work for the masses, but because they have the best technology reasonably available at the current time. I think that we need to see improvements in all areas before this tech is practical, but until that happens the best that we can really do as early adopters is to grab the best tech available and try to overlook the flaws.

All of the really successful experiences I've had with VR so far involve standing "still" in a confined space. That might actually work for train cabs but I'd really like to see Surveyor work in VR in the future, and I haven't yet seen anything comparable.

The Hololens obviously puts a different spin on the experience, and I'd be very interested to see one of those in action. I think there's a definite future there. The kit isn't available here last I checked, unfortunately, and it's also a bit exxy to pick up as a first-gen experiment.

chris
 
Google has Daydream now, which is another step in the right direction. Not quite in the same league as the rift / vive but it shows that there are alternatives, and might be more practical for a lot of people. It will be interesting to see if somebody manages to do decent hand tracking with a mobile device.

At this stage my attention is on the rift and vive - not because I think that's what will work for the masses, but because they have the best technology reasonably available at the current time. I think that we need to see improvements in all areas before this tech is practical, but until that happens the best that we can really do as early adopters is to grab the best tech available and try to overlook the flaws.

All of the really successful experiences I've had with VR so far involve standing "still" in a confined space. That might actually work for train cabs but I'd really like to see Surveyor work in VR in the future, and I haven't yet seen anything comparable.

The Hololens obviously puts a different spin on the experience, and I'd be very interested to see one of those in action. I think there's a definite future there. The kit isn't available here last I checked, unfortunately, and it's also a bit exxy to pick up as a first-gen experiment.

chris

I understand, but DayDream is a bit more expensive. If there would be cardboard-support, even you could sell those cardboards and it would be possible for everybody to use Trainz/VR.
 
I understand, but DayDream is a bit more expensive. If there would be cardboard-support, even you could sell those cardboards and it would be possible for everybody to use Trainz/VR.

Or we could just make Trainz run in Red/Blue mode and give everybody those 50c 3D glasses :)

At some point you have to accept that it's not much more than a gimmick. We've had the tech for red/blue 3D for years and you don't see many people calling for it.

I'm not even convinced that the more expensive consumer gear is really ready for mass market yet, so cardboard is waay down the list as far as I'm concerned. Daydream at least takes a stab at head position tracking, and in a form factor which is pretty sure to drop in price quite quickly over the next year or so if it catches on at all. I'm not making any claims that it's a good solution- I haven't used it- but at least it's trying to tackle some of the real problems and seems to have a big company pushing it forward. I doubt that Google Cardboard will still be around once the alternatives become mainstream.

Don't get me wrong, Google Cardboard is a clever solution which gives a surprisingly effective result on a shoestring budget. It's a great into to VR for people who don't otherwise have access to VR. It's a bit like a pinhole camera is a great introduction to the principles of photography- but I wouldn't expect somebody to use it in place of a modern camera/phone. Both are far more expensive, but also come with all of the capabilities that we've come to expect.

chris
 
The head-position part of the Google DayDream headset reminds me a bit of the I-vision thing. I saw one of those in action once and it was comical because the guy could never calibrate it. He was constantly fiddling with the headset about every 6 minutes, and when he did use it he had to position his head cockeyed.

The HoloLens I agree is something to keep in mind, yet it is way too expensive! If I could afford one to take a look at it, but at over $2000 US to test it's way beyond my budget too. I will definitely put this on the someday list as more and more companies and people develop and adopt the hardware. Maybe N3V can talk to Microsoft and become a partner and developer. This would add a real railroad simulator to the flock of early programs and be one up on the other sim.
 
The HoloLens I agree is something to keep in mind, yet it is way too expensive! If I could afford one to take a look at it, but at over $2000 US to test it's way beyond my budget too. I will definitely put this on the someday list as more and more companies and people develop and adopt the hardware.

I can't help but think that everyone will be running around with something like this eventually, but certainly not in the next few years :)


Maybe N3V can talk to Microsoft and become a partner and developer. This would add a real railroad simulator to the flock of early programs and be one up on the other sim.

Last time I read up on the HoloLens (and it has been a while) they were only open to developers in the States, which disqualifies us.

chris
 
I can't help but think that everyone will be running around with something like this eventually, but certainly not in the next few years :)




Last time I read up on the HoloLens (and it has been a while) they were only open to developers in the States, which disqualifies us.

chris

It sure will be awhile for something like this... It will be funny though seeing the masses prance around as they grab at little objects in the sky. :)

You are correct; It's only a US thing right now. I keep tabs on this stuff, though it's way out of my realm now, but it's cool hardware and being a former hardware technician it fits into that 'way cool place' .

John
 
(I've moved this thread from the TrainzDev forum so that other interested users can join in. Thanks for the suggestion Ishy.)

chris
 
I don't have a VR set (ok I have 2 Cardboards...) but I have a close friend who has a Vive & so have easy access to one. Is there anything in particular you are curious about?

In general my thoughts are:
The immersion is really quite breathtaking. When my friend first got it; him, myself & his brother were playing around with some of the demo stuff out there, one of which is a somewhat haunted shop. His brother was screaming for a good 15mins while exploring it as things jumped out at him. Likewise there is an FPS game I played in which you really find yourself dodging and such, quite the workout. The biggest downsides to VR gaming are the content, 90% of the stuff out there is just "hey look we made a VR scene" with very little actual "gaming" that you can do. I think there needs to be more common ground between VR gaming and regular game programming. And the other being the controls, the weird VR controllers we currently have with most systems don't feel natural to use. Simple things like moving around a room is quite cumbersome (it's like target practice: you hold a button, and move the controller around till a target on the floor is where you want to go, then upon release you jump there.)

I presume you guys are thinking about Trainz VR; and I'm not really sure how well that would work. There is a game out there where you simulate day-to-day life (like working in an auto-repair shop) and while the gameplay is fairly fluid the game controllers lacks the finesse needed to really control what you are doing. It reminds me a lot of playing Surgeon Simulator. Although you could probably get away with a demo-like 'game' where you ride a train & enjoy the scenery from a passenger car.

peter
 
Head worn eye gear such as Oculous Rift and Smart Phone eye headgear is scary, as these light emitting devices are worn so close to the eye and retina. I fear that these devices may cause widespread eye damage to users, being that they are IR and gama LED emitting devices that are not dim able, meaning that the radiation from bright light may be harmful to the eye and retina. If there were many yellow/gold filters, or polarized filters, that could be inserted into the headgear to dim the screen, that might prevent eye damage and eye disease. Just as earphones have lead to many cases of hearing loss, I fear that these so close to the eye, worn devices may lead to vision loss.
 
I have used an Oculus a mate owns he bought it to meetings we were at now and again & we had about 2- 3 hrs to play with it on those nights
He's a professional and does a lot of testing and reviews for companies products so get a lot of things to play with for free
He had a space sim of the solar system which you could travel through our solar system, as well as a fly over as a birds view over a Forrest & rugged mountains.
The view was quite good but took a little getting used to as you got dizzy if you turned too quick.Watching someone in a swivel chair using it they are continually moving to get the best view and you loose all orientation of which way you are facing from where you started.
He also has a shooter with a powered vest so when you take a bullet you feel the thump of it hitting you.
I had more trouble using it than the others there as I was the only one there wearing Glasses & had to continually adjust focus to see correctly.
but if I could have spent time to set it up to suit me I think it would have been a lot better as far as quality goes.
Personally I don't think I would use it for gaming as I just couldn't get used to the head unit field of view and rather than see something from the corner of my eye had to turn my head all the time to actually focus on it.

Dave
 
Head worn eye gear such as Oculous Rift and Smart Phone eye headgear is scary, as these light emitting devices are worn so close to the eye and retina. I fear that these devices may cause widespread eye damage to users, being that they are IR and gama LED emitting devices that are not dim able, meaning that the radiation from bright light may be harmful to the eye and retina.

This is basically the same argument used against TVs when I was growing up. The short version is that there's no evidence to suggest that this kind of stuff is dangerous in moderation. There are potential dangers from overexposure, but this is basically eye strain and is no different from eye strain from other sources, such as watching a bright screen in a darkened room, reading a book without sufficient light, and so on. In short, nothing particularly scary.


Just as earphones have lead to many cases of hearing loss, I fear that these so close to the eye, worn devices may lead to vision loss.

Again, most people don't consider earphones scary. I suspect that you're much more likely to damage your hearing by going to a rock concert, or working on a construction site, or by turning your car stereo up too loud.

At the end of the day, there are a million ways to hurt yourself in this world through overexposure. Too much salt will kill you. Too much water will kill you. That doesn't make salt or water scary.


If you don't feel comfortable using this kind of tech, simply don't use it. I think that we're a long way from the day where this stuff is "mandatory" for the average person, and by that point we'll have good data on how much usage is safe. And some people will still overdo it, of course.

chris
 
I presume you guys are thinking about Trainz VR; and I'm not really sure how well that would work.

I think Driver cab view is pretty easy to imagine, especially with vr hand controllers to operate the various levers.

Surveyor is much more of a question mark. Jerking the camera around at above the speed of sound sounds like a quick recipe for nausea. We'd need to really rethink how you interact. A first-person view with teleports might work but is perhaps a bit limiting. Viewing the route scaled down so that you can walk around in the small VR play area and still cover a reasonable amount of in-game distance might work better perhaps?

chris
 
The view was quite good but took a little getting used to as you got dizzy if you turned too quick.

Yeah, I feel the same. Some people seem to be able to handle this okay, but a lot of people can't. I'm sure that this is a trained response to some degree, but that's still not a good experience for a first-time user to have.

The stand-in-place games don't cause this effect for me. I'm not sure what the limits are in practice- whether it's a "you're going to feel sick, but the faster you move, the worse it gets" or whether it's more like "you can handle it okay up to a certain point, but you'll feel bad after that". I'm hoping it's the latter, because VR is a whole lot less interesting if you can't move around.

chris
 
Don’t be too proud of this technological terror you’ve constructed. The ability to see stuff in 3-D is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
 
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