Off topic: Oculus

start thinking "model train in my lounge room"

That would be my interest - seeing Trainz in 3D. I'd be happy with an experimental / developer option to 'turn on VR' so my headset works with the game. The next feature I'd like would be having the view track the headset position (while the cursor still follows the mouse).
Obviously we'd need to work on controls / controller support at some point (it's kinda hard to see the keyboard while wearing a HMD), but a developer / iterative approach would work for me....

Curtis
 
...(it's kinda hard to see the keyboard while wearing a HMD), ....

Curtis
and there in is one of the major drawbacks for all but the expert user. When I was using that VR, I kept having to peek below the visor to see the controller. Even with the few buttons, it was not intuitive. More practice? Now try a standard keyboard plus a RailDriver and having to touchtype to use VR will be a challenge. A virtual keyboard and RailDriver would need some kind of tactile feed back system. All in all, not a trivial conversion.
 
Eye damage:

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s/news-story/a67849532e82d857be7a3524c91ef11e
I will be asking several experts, and researching more of this
OPTOMETRISTS have issued a warning that virtual reality could be damaging people’s eyes as a new study shows that Australians are on the cusp of a VR revolution.
Bupa Optical senior optometrist Karen Makin said there was early evidence linking VR headsets to eye problems but there needed to be more research into long-term use.
There’s not been a lot of research done in the field and that’s the concern because it is unknown,”
Lack of research, does not mean that VR is safe ... Only time will tell when millions of more cases of eye damage occurs in the coming years due to VR ... and we humans are the actual test ginuea pigs and lab rats

A chemical used to make Teflon somehow got into the bloodstream of everybody on earth. "It doesn't break down -- ever. It is the most persistent synthetic chemical known to man," The chemical is PFOA, sometimes called C-8. It's used to make Teflon - made by DuPont -- and many, many other products. But DuPont says PFOA is used only during the manufacturing process and that there's no PFOA in Teflon cookware or other Teflon products.

Just because DuPont claims PFOA C8 is safe ... Do you trust DuPont ?

This isn't the first time the EPA faced this kind of problem. A chemical very similar to PFOA, called PFOS, was used by 3M Corp. to make Scotchgard and other products. In May 2000, after negotiations with EPA, 3M phased out PFOS use.

So even though VR is used in many pro sectors including medical and therapeutic, you still want to push your agenda that VR destroys eyesight. So I'm just wondering what's driving your campaign? Why is it you're so determined to ram your somewhat extremist view in front of our faces? No one is forcing you to buy VR. You're not doing this out of genuine concern for our health. This is driven by your personal dislike of VR and a determination to stop new adopters by ignoring logic and forcing your nonsense down their throats.

Let's try some logic shall we? Your argument applies equally well to mobile phone and WIFI. There is concern that those technologies cause cancer. There's an engineer who has been claiming for some time that wifi and cell-phone technology causes cancer.

I'm wondering why you aren't protecting us from that too? Let's apply more logic: A VR display with protective radiation filtering is far less deadly than a microwave emitter attached to your body for hours each day. Or that microwave emitter beaming wifi around your home. So how come you aren't preaching about that higher priority threat? The reason is simple... you want to dissuade new VR adopters and in this case try and ensure that N3V never makes a VR version of their train sim. Not out of love for our eye health... purely out of your own dislike and techno phobia. I've been using VR since 2006. I can still see your nonsense and see through you clearly.

Threat priority assessment isn't your strong-point is it.

P. S. It's nothing personal. Just that you seem to be a broken record with this VR will melt my eyes and cause my teeth and hair to fallout (4).

P. P. S.

I have compiled a list of health threats and will list them in order of priority:

1: Increased global radiation from 2 x prominent nuclear reactor disasters.
2: Air pollution from road vehicles.
3: Phone and Wifi microwave emission
4: Some Processed food
5: Household cleaning chemicals
6: Shampoos and deodorants
7: Lightning strikes
8: Strong wind/Tornado/Hurricane
9: Psychotic clowns with axes
10: One Direction music
256: Gamma radiation from VR screens.
 
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Wouldn't you at all question a device that is 1 inch in front of your eyeball, shining it's un-natural light source focusing it on your retina, whether it was dangerous ?

Or would you simply (blindly) "TRUST" the Chinese manufacturer, who has released a new, largely untested device on the market, (as research into VR eye safety has never been fully researched ... we humans are the actual test ginuea pigs and lab rats)

Or would you blindly accept and "assume" that all products are safe, ie: "why would they dare put it on the market if it was unsafe" ? (even though VR safety has never been medically studied, nor medically researched to date)

You can't validly use idiotic obtuse unrelated analogies on other products, trying to prove your point about VR safety, ie:
1: Increased global radiation from 2 x prominent nuclear reactor disasters.
2: Air pollution from road vehicles.
3: Phone and Wifi microwave emission
4: Some Processed food
5: Household cleaning chemicals
6: Shampoos and deodorants
7: Lightning strikes
8: Strong wind/Tornado/Hurricane
9: Psychotic clowns with axes
10: One Direction music
256: Gamma radiation from VR screens.

Thalidomide was tested, and was thought to be safe to use: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ine-15536544&usg=AOvVaw0lLg4s6F9xt4iR9VRWYXKC

Not to be using Thalidomide as an analogy, but it was tested, and certified to be safe ... whilst VR has never been tested, and never medically certified as safe, by any certified medical board ... It is only thought to be safe by medically uncertified PC techies, and complete novices, who have no medical degree what so ever
 
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If you want to use analogies, thalidomide was and is safe, as long as you're not pregnant. In fact it is now a treatment for some skin conditions and cancer. See the Mayo clinic.

Of course nothing is 100% safe. Even life is known to be the precursor of death in 100% of all cases. Naturally that is rather flippant but all those scare tactics doesn't advance the case either. And what is un-natural light? When your eye detects a photon, I don't think it can tell what the source was. If too many photons with too high an energy impinge on your retina, they can be overwhelmed, temporarily or permanently in extreme cases but that has nothing to do with the source of those photons and all to do with their quality. If those VR goggles are too bright or emitting in the ultraviolet or even shorter wavelengths, that is a design flaw. Not a flaw in the concept.

I just question how practical the concept, at the current state of the art, is except for a narrow range of activities in Trainz. If some day the virtual world can be manipulated as easily or even easier as the current keyboard/mouse control, that would be a whole new paradigm and would be interesting to use.
 
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I just question how practical the concept, at the current state of the art, is except for a narrow range of activities in Trainz. If some day the virtual world can be manipulated as easily or even easier as the current keyboard/mouse control, that would be a whole new paradigm and would be interesting to use.

If you haven't already tried them, I'd strongly suggest you check out the current generation VR controllers (grip controllers, etc.) as they do go some way towards easy manipulation of the world. No, they're not the be-all solution to VR input, but they're a good step in the right direction. I'd expect that future implementations will likely use pose recognition to project your own body into the VR environment.

Mouse/keyboard control with VR is basically a non-starter. Virtual keyboards are kind of like the old ABC DEF cellphone keyboards - they do the job but everybody's looking for something better. Voice recognition might be a longer-term option here.

chris
 
My question is: are Oculus, and other competitors VR headgear, dimmable, where you could dial the light intensity way down, or could you wear Blue Blocker gold/brown tint sunglass's underneath the headgear ?

I use gold/brown Blue Blocker (and other competitors) night driving polarized sunglass's when using my PC all the time, as the PC monitor screen is so bright

I have an old trashpicked gold/brown 12x12 coffee table glass top, that is perfect when placed in front of my PC monitor, as it cuts down on the light intensity drastically (like 50%)

I would agree that diving in the cab of a loco, looking around the cab, moving the control handles, would be so realistic with Oculus
 
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My question is: are Oculus, and other competitors VR headgear, dimmable, where you could dial the light intensity way down,

No, but nor are they stupidly bright. At maximum scene brightness, you might eventually get tired eyes - but you'd also not be able to see anything so you'd take the goggles off way before it became a problem. In practice, sunlight is WAY brighter than pretty much any normal artificial source.


or could you wear Blue Blocker gold/brown tint sunglass's underneath the headgear ?

I would assume so. You can wear normal glasses under VR goggles.


I use gold/brown Blue Blocker (and other competitors) night driving polarized sunglass's when using my PC all the time, as the PC monitor screen is so bright

One gotcha here is that you're probably not talking about brightness so much as the contrast between the "bright" screen and the surrounding room lighting. If you set up your screen outside in direct sunlight, you'd probably find that it wasn't particularly bright at all. For an easier test, compare your smartphone on maximum brightness to your computer screen, then walk outside and have a look at your smartphone again.

chris
 

This is you flappy. End of conversation.

world-end-man-sign.jpg
 
Wouldn't you at all question a device that is 1 inch in front of your eyeball, shining it's un-natural light source focusing it on your retina, whether it was dangerous ?

Or would you simply (blindly) "TRUST" the Chinese manufacturer, who has released a new, largely untested device on the market, (as research into VR eye safety has never been fully researched ... we humans are the actual test ginuea pigs and lab rats)

Or would you blindly accept and "assume" that all products are safe, ie: "why would they dare put it on the market if it was unsafe" ? (even though VR safety has never been medically studied, nor medically researched to date)



Thalidomide was tested, and was thought to be safe to use: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ine-15536544&usg=AOvVaw0lLg4s6F9xt4iR9VRWYXKC

Not to be using Thalidomide as an analogy, but it was tested, and certified to be safe ... whilst VR has never been tested, and never medically certified as safe, by any certified medical board ... It is only thought to be safe by medically uncertified PC techies, and complete novices, who have no medical degree what so ever

This is you flappy. End of dialog. You're trolling and trying to force your extremism onto us for daring to use a technology you disapprove of. So from this point on I will be ignoring you.

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world-end-man-sign.jpg


For anyone else: I've been using VR since 2006 when I purchased a used IO-Systems PC3d. Have had other VR hmd along the way. Aside from total hair loss, teeth falling out, bleeding gums and other symptoms of radiation poisoning, my eyes are working very well.

You have to remember that VR has been around much longer than oculus and vive. Longer than the lawnmower man era. Dating back to the 60's and 70's. I had a chat some years ago with a scientist who uses a range of VR headsets from consumer (he had good things to say about Oculus DK2 back when it was current tech) to pro medical and military. There are so many more serious things to be concerned about in this world. I have a friend in Germany who is blind in one eye and partially sighted in the other. He's never used VR in his life. Has high levels of anxiety to the point where his parents have tried to get psychiatric help. He spent a year telling me a neighbour's satellite dish was damaging his mind and body. He said it was "bending light rays". After months of hearing this dialog from him each day I asked him to send me photos of the apartment window. There was no visible satellite dish. When I asked him where the dish was? He said it was on the wall of an apartment below on the same block! He'd have to step out on the balcony and look down to the right to see it! I tried explaining that a satellite dish for TV emits no radiation. His response was that maybe it was from the bolts connecting the dish to the wall. More recently he became convinced the fridge in his apartment was killing him. He began boiling herbal tea because he claimed it would absorb any deadly toxins from the fridge. He has now been offline for a year. He made himself blind in his one partially sighted eye because he tried to "improve his vision" with herbs. He is refusing surgery to try and restore the sight because he thinks the surgery will kill him.

In the years I have known him he fixates on one thing after another. Can't relax. Can't enjoy life.
 
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Back on topic:

I agree that trying to use a keyboard in VR or if you have train controls tends not to work very well. I play Elite Dangerous... sometimes it is necessary to type in a name... It then becomes a struggle to type while lifting the headset up a bit. It would be easy enough to modify a vive or rift face cushion so it lets you see below but I guess that's not a very elegant solution.

Let's talk about flying an F18 in DCS world... An aircraft in DCS has a keyboard filled with aircraft functions. The solution there is HOTAS. HOTAS (at least with a saitek or warthog) takes care of all the functions you will need if you have multiple assignments per button. The situation is different for train sims where most people will be using keyboard. A train cockpit is less complicated than an F18. The train cockpit could have virtual controls (as in Derail Valley). External views are fine in VR, overhead track view would be achievable with motion controllers but I think adding VR to the main game would be tricky. A separate branch as Chris suggested for hard-core VR users might be the best solution shorter term.

Normally when I'm in VR I want to stay in VR for the duration of a game or sim. For Trainz I think it would be more practical to use VR just for the driving and external views. In that case it could be a feature of the pancake version down the line (pun). I think it's the only practical solution... so in essence you're not messing with Trainz pancake other than adding an additional display mode for people who want to be in a life-size cockpit.
 
The situation is different for train sims where most people will be using keyboard.

I would just work with the assumption that VR users will be using VR controllers; anything else, while you might want to support it in a limited fashion for the sake of outliers, isn't really getting the point of the VR experience.


Normally when I'm in VR I want to stay in VR for the duration of a game or sim. For Trainz I think it would be more practical to use VR just for the driving and external views.

You mean as opposed to the menus and content management? Or are you referring to some other aspects of the gameplay?

chris
 
I would just work with the assumption that VR users will be using VR controllers; anything else, while you might want to support it in a limited fashion for the sake of outliers, isn't really getting the point of the VR experience.




You mean as opposed to the menus and content management? Or are you referring to some other aspects of the gameplay?

chris

Agree about the controllers. I like the VR controls in Derail although it's not a full train sim at this stage.

Staying in VR: I haven't actually spent any time on Trainz yet so I don't know about the content management aspects. Last train sim I spent time on was that other one a few years ago. Nearly purchased A New Era a number of times over the past few years but it's the lack of VR that's prevented me from doing so. I'm a fan of train sims but I'm a bigger fan of VR.

Game menus can be brought into VR without issue. I guess it's content management. Given your previous statements about potential sales versus time spent developing, the only practical solution is to aim for minimum disruption to the non-VR development.

So a VR cockpit and VR external views is a good starting point. That opens up the game to VR users without enraging too many non-VR users (although some will always be angry no matter what).
 
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