Some negatives on the re-opened Borders Railway Line...

rjhowie said:

Having been written about in a book with a whole chapter dedicated to me, spoken at an inner city conference at 3 workshops, met very important public figures (including 2 First Ministers from different countries in the UK), interviewed by BBCRadio for 15 minutes, held a very important civic office for 12 years...

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Me, me, me! Like I said, bigoted ignoramous. Worse still, Politician. That says it all. No idea about the shop floor and what happens in the real world. I rest my case. "Politics is made up of two words. "Poli" which is Greek meaning "many" and "tics" which are blood sucking insects - Gore Vidal."

Dave

P.S. I once shook hands with Prince Charles and Lady Diana after working the Royal Train. So what?

Well smart alex you were the one who very wrongly labelled nasty names on me. And to emphasise your damn ignorance I was not talking about politics so wrong again. There are positions in civic affairs that are NOT political dear numpty heid. A magistrate up here in the north of Kingdom doesn't share the bench with 2 others like you lot but dons the black gown and a sole one along with a legal advisor. So stop hi-jacking my thread because I totally disagree with you like many and remember this is a free country. You did make me laugh because you were the one who was trying to be snobby, self appraising and being so damn amusingly silly.

There was no reason at all for you to lower things by those two despicable descriptions of me because i differ from you. Just because you as an individual train driver has a view is fine but to slag off someone else for having the nerve to have another stance is telling something else.

Now I want to get back to this being about the Borders Line and hope that the Edinburgh authorities will do the decent thing and look at the recent suggestion of a serious look at the former track beyond Galashiels all the way to Carlisle. Please do get back to the mirror and keep preening yourself and give it a rest.

Any other more normals here feel that extension should be a definite consideration please?

​Hi everybody.
I am unsure in regard to the responsibilities of Scotrail north of the border. However, unless they and the Scottish Government come forward with the money for any further development of the Borders line it will (at least for the foreseeable future) not take place.

The incompetence and overspend by Network Rail on the electrification of the Great Western Mainline which is now approaching two billion pounds beyond its original cost estimate means that planned upgrades to rail lines and services in the north of England will in all probability have to be cancelled. The foregoing projects were part of election promises made to North of England residence. Therefore, those North of England projects will undoubtedly take priority over any further Galashiels line development should the Westminster government grant extra funding to Network Rail in the autumn financial statement which is very unlikely.

The above would leave the Scottish government with the decision as to whether they would wish to fund an extension of the line beyond Galashiels and “sort out” the existing problems that have developed in regard to the line since its reopening.

However, as recent publicity has demonstrated the Scottish government are currently running a larger deficit on its national budget than the Greek government did at its worst, and we all know what happened their. Therefore it would seem that the Scottish finances are most certainly “not up to” providing the expenditure necessary for further rail development north of the border at this time, or any other time for the foreseeable future.

However, it has to be said that the Scottish government and sensible public expenditure are two items which by recent history have never engaged together. Therefore, you never know what the Scottish government may extravagantly decide to pour money into next. So, a mystical conjuring of the Scottish finance minister's hands may provide yet more money for Network Rail to squander perhaps.

The foregoing will be fine with all UK citizens south of the border as long as when things go financially wrong the whinging whining Scottish Government along with many of its citizens do not expect us in the south to pick up the bill for the stupidity, as that most certainly will not happen.

Bill

You have been so right there wholbr in so much and the hard truth is that more is spent per head on people here in Scotland than the rest of the UK! Oh and by the way another major fiasco up here I must admit on the work on the electrification of the main fast line between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Many trains will stop at Falkirk in the evenings and then a bus provided. Also means that many regulars on the busiest line in Scotland going between Glasgow and Edinburgh will have to take the kind of suburban alternative on the Bathgate line (just as well it is there). So the over-run is now going to be many months and into the new year perhaps. Mind you we have been fortunate in that 5 long dead lines were brought back but the entertainers in Holyrood are being run by pathetics who appreciate little and now the oil industry has collapsed and shoved legions out of work the idea of separation i a daft thing. Without GB we would be in one h of a state!

As for the Borders Line it will be interesting in hard practice to see if the politico tartanites actually do investigate the rest of the route to Carlisle. Over in N. Ireland there was a 10,000 petition to get the Portadown-Armagh Line back (closed in the 1950's) and we know about present economic matters and the responsible minister who did say he wanted to supprt rail did a wee dance. Politicians, eh?

good on you for that inclusion!

Bobby

​Hi Everybody.
Bobby, I could not agree with you more with regard to the “pathetic” antics of recent times by way of the Scottish government. They seem to forget that the Independence referendum is over along with the Brexit referendum and we must all go forward from where the United Kingdom finds itself into the future.

One of the few things that is clear at the present time would be that the transport infrastructure of Britain has to be running at its very best to support this nation into whatever future awaits it both north and south of the border. In the foregoing the United Kingdom's railways need an efficient road network as much as the road network needs an efficient rail network, each feeding off the other.

I have spent almost all of my working life connected to road transport and in that i am content that under the recently created Office of Road and Rail the road transport industry is well led and has a good and positive future. However, I feel that cannot be stated in regard to Britain's Rail industry at the present time due to the leadership within it at the very top.

The foregoing has seen proven that Network Rail has time and time again demonstrated that it is not up to Leading, maintaining, developing and running the rail industry in a way that enhances the development of Britain especially in what will be needed for the whole country post Brexit.

I would also place into the above “pot of failures” for the rail industry many of the train operating companies but not all I would emphasize. Here in the South West of England, First Group have greatly improved services since they took over the whole franchize for the region several years ago, and much could be learned by other TOCs in the way they have accomplished that. However, even they are now starting to be affected by the inability to recruit and retain staff in the industry, a matter that needs urgent address at national level for both road and rail.

However, what I feel is most needed is that it is seen that transport infrastructure development (both road and rail) is provided equally in all parts the UK especially in regard to what was promised pre election for the north east of England. For only equal transport expenditure in all regions can bring equal commercial development and with that equal employment opportunities and prosperity.

We do not need a separate England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland at any level in these islands, what we need is one nation with one vision for the future and in that the railways will have a great role to play. However, the rail industry must restructure at the very top if they are to carry out the foregoing role, that being similar to the way the road haulage industry has completely restructured in recent years.

Failure to carry out the above will send Britain's railways once again into decline.
Bill

Yep we are in the same corner with what you raised Bill. These parliaments are as boring as heck and often second rate. Nice salaries, long holidays, Council Tax paid and so on. I am proud to be Scottish of course AND British! We would be in big debt if independent of the UK and it has to be noted that would effect everything, everybody and the railways very much. Northern Ireland is the only home country with a State Railway and has no Network Rail to boot. And when the State took over they started a very quick process of destroying the railway network which ended up with around only a quarter left . As a side issue what was then the Ulster Transport Authority when it took over both trains and buses the high heads were mostly bus people so there you are! Today NI Railways has a line of around 18 miles mothballed as cannot afford to run it and hoping for the future.

The constantly increasing passenger numbers are obviously causing difficulty and of course one company may be better than another but the cutting up of the UK into these local yakking shops is not a help.

Unionist Bobby

Hi Bobby and everybody.
Bobby, I very much respect the description you give in your posting at #26 of this thread in regard to the situation in Northern Ireland as to the Government running of the rail network there. The foregoing also very much depicts the situation the whole UK rail network could find itself in should it be entirely nationalized as many are pressing for at this time.

The problem for any nationalized industry has always been that whatever that industry is it has to compete for funding alongside many other claims on government expenditure who often correctly have priority. By example, it has become widely recognised in the UK that the National Health Service will need very soon a huge injection of new funding if wholesale cuts to services and hospital closures are to be avoided.

In the above, anyone can add government priority spending on Education, Pensions, the welfare services plus Security and defence and conclude that the railways if nationalized would come as very low priority for funding below that list. Indeed, I would argue that the rail network would soon face large funding cuts if nationalized at present, as they have over the years in northern Ireland.

However, as a government agency Network Rail have been very good over the years in stating the need for funding of the railways with government(s), even if in recent times that funding has been poorly used by the agency by way of incompetence and mismanagement. Therefore, a thorough reform of Network Rail starting at the very top would in my humble opinion serve the rail industry better than full nationalization at this time.

In the above, Network Rail must be brought to look back at the reasons for its formation and once again concentrate on its core function of efficiently transporting commuters and business persons to their destinations on time, first time, every time. The continual rise in passenger figures very much masks the important fact that many of the above commuters and business users of the railways (especially in the south of England) do so because there is little or no alternative transport open to them. Years of under spending on the roads has meant that many hundreds of thousands have to make their everyday journeys by rail due to traffic congestion making judged timed arrivals impossible by road.

There have been many reports in the press and other media of recent in regard to persons losing their employment due to their continual late arrival at their places of work which is due to cancellation or late running of their trains. Therefore it can leave no one with any other opinion in my view than Network rail need to “get a grip” of not only its own operations but also that of the train operators and their “pathetic” industrial relationships with their own staff and representative unions.

Let us also have an end to joint taxpayer funded projects with the National Railway Museum for they have their own body to represent them namely the national science museum which they are part of with its own budget. So, if that body cannot afford a project it should be forgotten until they can.

The UK rail network and its operators has “captive customers” and that is where every attention must be given to ensure their timely arrivals at their destinations every day to the sacrifice of everything else. If not the justified demands that those persons must be given an alternative choice of transport (by way of large scale investment in the roads) will increase to the detriment and decline of the railways.

Bill

You certainly have something there Bill. The main line between Glasgow and Edinburgh was closed for some time due to electification and sorting out Glasgow (Queen Street) and the tunnel. However I am now are the damn thing is stil in a state and some trains in the evening are being stopped at Falkirk then a move to buses. There are other irritations causing problems to passengers. Now the busiest line will be subject to all sorts of delays maybe into 2017! It is just as well there is more than one passenger line between the 2 cities although the one people will fall back on via Bathgate takes longer due to the all stopping stations required.

In my passing reference to the Ulster situation I have known things over there since I was a wee lad on holidays then later myself attending conferences and so on. One passing niggle is that my UK Senior Railcard can be used everywhere else in Gt Britain but not there! hehe.

Will be interesting to see how the Edinburgh carnival politicians go on the Borders Line and whether it is just a deflecting patter.

Just want to say, this should be in a book for everyone to read,

I thought your transportation was better than ours from across the Pond, I'm in CALIFORNIA, USA , the worst Freeways in the nation of which I am not proud of that title, I've driven them over 45yrs!

Lord you have some serious issues, and I wish you the best, as I have around the Railroad too, and can't believe the darn chicanery that exists, self centered egotist, and others that misappropriate moneys for things that absolutely do not need to done. Lack of insight for things that do, and of course special interest groups that mess the who table up.

I better stop here before my blood boils any more, I wish and I will pray for better days ahead for you folks across the Pond.

Thank you for the fantastic thread here, and I'll continue to read the latest.

Hi Bobby,Blueodessey and everybody.
Blueodessey, I am pleased that you are enjoying the thread, as I believe that their are two groups of British Railway enthusiasts on this forum. The first would be those that love the UK railways but do not use them on a regular basis (if at all) and therefore do not realize the huge problems that are facing the network at the present time.

The second group are those who use the network on a regular or daily basis and therefore witness and experience with each journey the ever growing crisis, and are willing to state what they see, as it is. Several in the second group such as myself are great enthusiasts of the UK rail system, but are aware that unless things can be “turned around” the critics of the large scale rail spending along with the very powerful UK roads lobby will gain in ascendancy and eventually prevail.

To further give light to the incompetence and mismanagement of the network and to add to what Bobby (rjhowie) stated in his posting #28 of this thread in regard to problems on the Edinburgh to Glasgow main line, we have the ever growing saga of the electrification of the Great Western Mainline between London Paddington and Bristol/Cardiff/Swansea.

As already stated in this thread the original two thousand and fourteen budget of £875 million for the project has now increased to two point six billion and the original completion date of 2018 has now gone back to a full completion date of 2022. The Hitachi 800 train sets that have been ordered for the electrified line where originally to be solely pantograph powered electric. However, someone seems to have woken up at Network Rail and realized that many trains on the line run a through service between London Paddington and Weston Super Mare/Taunton.

In the above,the section of the line between Bristol Temple Meads and Taunton is not to be electrified, therefore a number of the foregoing sets were re-ordered with diesel engines to make them dual powered (pantagraph plus diesel electric). However, it was seemingly then again realized that versatility would be compromised by having only some of the trainsets able to operate as far as Taunton. To correct that situation all of the Hitachi 800 train sets have now been re-ordered with the diesel dual powering.

Exactly what all the above will cost above the two point six billion expenditure has not been revealed as far I am aware. However, the attitude at Network Rail seems to be one of “ it's okay the taxpayer will put to rights our forgivable mistakes ”.

Further to the above, rail passengers were informed at the start of the above electrification project that all the work would be carried out at night with regular rail users not even realizing all the work that was being carried out. However daytime disruption has become the hallmark of the work. The largest of these daytime disruptions will commence on the 12th of September with the complete closure of the severn tunnel for six weeks.

Passengers between Swansea/Cardiff and London Paddington will have to “disembark” from their trains at Newport or the Severn tunnel junction station be placed on buses for the twenty mile journey to Bristol parkway station to re-embark on a train(s) for London. However, how much extra time all the foregoing will add to passengers journey times even Network Rail seems rather vague about as the M4 Motorway between Cardiff and the Severn road Bridge is one of the most congested in Britain even at off peak times.

All the above would be laughable if it were not for the fact that the taxpayer and regular rail users by way of ticket prices are paying for all the foregoing “total incompetence”.

I have one word for that incompetence, that word being “DISGUSTING”
Bill

The latest negative thing about the Borders Railway in connection with what I said on cancelled trains, etc is still there. It seems there is a combination of factors including the type of trains (158 think it is) giving problems on overheating especially uphill and lack of staff. The staff problem has been accentuated over getting some drivers who might not want to work on an off day but it does show a general staffing lack. Considering the line was re-opend for that 33 odd miles on time and within cost it is all a bit sad that these things are happening and even more so on the passengers attracted. This issue needs solving!

Thank you Bill for great review on such a problematic system.

All I can say is, I hope they get there heads out of a Dark Place there in get a grip so to speak, and right the Sinking Ship, before it's to late!

Time will only tell, as the Ridership patience is tested beyond what is acceptable.

God Bless the Queen!

cyberdongreen said:

.... Long gone are the days, too, where we spoke of "connecting services" and "Relief Trains." There is no care for the travelling public and no spare capacity anywhere within the industry anymore. And still they try to trim it down to the bone, all in the interests of profit. .... British railways should be nationalised again at the earliest opportunity. I would withdraw all public subsidies from these so-called private companies and say, "Right, now let's see how viable your private company is." They would all be dead within a month I guarantee you. The railways would then have to come back into public ownership straight away.[/URL]

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Only just seen this, but I cannot agree enough with the sentiments posted here. Many thanks Dave! There is no care for the travelling public from the greedy TOCs who are only interested in fleecing their 'customers' (more like captives if you have to use Southern) and the taxpayer too. The whole mentality now is one of 'bargain basement' services with everything pared to the bone with the bare minimum of everything whether it be leg room, seat width, tables, windows, catering, connecting services, station facilities etc. etc. etc. Also the assumption that you should book weeks in advance, airline-style, therefore sacrificing one of the great benefits of Britain's railways - turn up and go. The drive to virtually eliminate staffing on the railways - only one person in charge of a train with over 500 people? - is a product of this mentality. DOO is clearly and obviously unsafe and unnecessarily and unfairly stresses the staff who have to operate it. And whenever anything goes wrong, 'human error' will be blamed and not the operating environment.

I can scarcely summon up words to express my contempt for the evil of privatisation and what it has done to our railways and how, 20 years on, this becomes more apparent every day.

Paul

Well I don't agree with you at all that nationalisation is automatically the answer. For years under BR there was a great degree of farce and poor services and much else apart from the old hoary stale sandwiches stuff. More people are in hard fact using the railways than all the years under government control so everyone should be reminded of the actual past and not think that as we move through the years the negatives were not there. vastly increased patronage has brought challenges and in view of our history just to simply come up with the old way as a would-be miracle is not the automatic case.

Up there in the northern part of the Kingdom 60% of trains do not have a guard but travelling conductors is a wide thing. At one time big stations used to have crowds of porters hanging around with nothing to do because the old way they were once used was gone so they had to be handled and so be it. I can still recalling Glasgow Central a big and busy station when those men spent the time just smoking and chatting. has their departure meant the station is less efficient? Nope!

I made the point that I wanted to get back to the them of the thread on the Border line and it's possible future and it got bogged down by it being as often happens being hi-jacked! Maybe it would have been better doing a separate thread. Indeed Paul I made that clear so a wee bit of recent news on that great long expansion (!). There was some unfortunate hampering of the services on it with some trains only getting part way along due to signal failures and disrupting travel. Hopefully this will be hastened for fixing.

Bobby

DOO discussion

I would just like to point out that as a driver on the only electrified route between Birmingham and London that there is no DOO in operation on this route and has never been. The was an attempt at introduction I. The early 1990s but that was fought off, all passenger trains between Birmingham and London under the wires have a guard, train manager of conductor.

Strange Story about London Tunnel;s (Warning Large Pics 1280x720)

Hi, I found this story on the Web today and I thought it might be of interest. I hope this is Ok?

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20160906-plague-pits-the-london-underground-and-crossrail



It’s long been thought that train lines in London tunnel through bodies. But as a recent discovery shows, the truth is more complex — and odd — than you might think

• By Amanda Ruggeri

6 September 2016

blueodessey said:

Hi, I found this story on the Web today and I thought it might be of interest. I hope this is Ok?

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20160906-plague-pits-the-london-underground-and-crossrail



It’s long been thought that train lines in London tunnel through bodies. But as a recent discovery shows, the truth is more complex — and odd — than you might think

• By Amanda Ruggeri

6 September 2016

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Thanks for posting... What an interesting article.

Well we have drifted hundreds of miles now, haha!:hehe:

Sorry to bump an old thread but I would like to publicly acknowledge that I have offered (and had accepted) my sincerest apologies to Mr Howie for the manner in which I have treated him on this thread. All opinions are valid - whether we agree with them or not - and if we do not accept that fact then we do not accept "Free Speech." On reflection, I consider that I was the biggotted one and will endeavour to avoid a repeat of this episode anywhere on this (or any other) forum again.

Thank you.

Dave

Don't be too hard on yourself Dave, I think your reflections/experience as a driver operating DOO are very relevant and important.

Let me restate my view, so that even rjhowie can understand it. I'm very old fashioned, indeed, a conservative with a small 'c':- I want to travel on trains that are safe. If I'm on a train with 500 fellow passengers, I want to have a genuine guard, as well as a driver - not a 'conductor', it's not a bus! The only reason for trying to downgrade guards to 'conductors' is in order to cut wages and then to dispense with on train staff entirely in order to save money. And the money saved, of course, goes to shareholder dividends and directors' bonuses and all the other rip-offs of privatisation - none of it actually benefits the railway or its passengers. And when the inevitable accidents happen, it will all be blamed on 'human error' and absolutely nothing to do with the scalping merchants who are running our railways!

Paul