Some negatives on the re-opened Borders Railway Line...

As most will know from what i passed on earlier the Borders line recently re-opened by HM The Queen was an achievement within the time frame and cost. The numbers travelling also superseded expectations but not all is rosy apparently!

Most railways here in Scotland are double-tracked except in some rural places and the Highlands but as single track route big problems have emerged. A well known railway consultant and author has stated that there are not enough places with double track to ensure timings and he might be proved right as one in four trains (28.4%) did not run to time during this present month for example. on topf of that the Borders Railway has seen 70 trains cancelled to various things including train faults a driver on sick leave a falling tree amongst others. Considering that as i indicate the success in cost and dates this is very much needing sorting or the traffic numbers will be effected due to trains not running. this is ridiculous and the Scottish Government, Transport for Scotland and operator needing slap. Maybe just as well they did not for now continue the whole line to Carlisle if things are this strained over 32 miles.

These issues are minor though and most likely can be rectified by providing additional passing loops, clearing some trees, and accounting for sick drivers.

Other than that, it's great to hear about the success of the operation.

Hi everybody
rjhowie, it would seem that what you are witnessing in Scotland is systematic of what is now taking place over the whole UK rail network. In all regions delays and cancellations seem to be rife due to staff shortages, industrial action and downright mismanagement. The problems seem to be particularly severe in southern with media reports of people losing their jobs due to constant delays and cancelations on services taking them to work. Southern have now withdrawn over three hundred trains a day to provide in their words " a more reliable service".

For me the root cause of the problems can be laid at the door of Network Rail with the train operating companies not far behind and I have to agree with you that metaphorically speaking many in the management of those organizations need " a good slapping" and pushed out the door. Being semiretired I do not now travel on the railways as often as i used to. However the person who has taken over some of the duties i in former times carried out booked to travel up to London a few days ago with nightmare results.

Arriving at Weston Super Mare station at 6:30am in the morning she found that the through service to London had been canceled. Taking a district service to Bristol Temple meads she then on arrival found that the connection service to London had also been canceled. She eventually caught the 8am service but had to stand for the full length of the one hour fourty minute journey. She eventually arrived for the meeting with one our best customers over two hours late.

The cancelations on first great western persisted throughout the day and to cut long story short Steff our employee eventually arrived back home at 11:30pm that night. We are now considering allowing case handelers to travel by road to destinations in the evening and stop in hotels overnight. However that will drastically affect the companies efficiency and that will mean increased costs which will have to be passed on. The situation on the railways has now become very serious with many companies finding themslves in simular situations as ourselves.

What I do not understand in regard to Scottish situation you described rob is the relationship between Network Rail and Scotrail. Who is responcible for the day to day running and maintenance of the network up there as that surely is where the problem must lay.

Bill

I think the matter of who closes the doors which is one of the main contentions at the moment is being overdone by the RMT Union. There are routes going into London with as much as over 80% where drivers do the doors. Indeed this driver doing doors has went on for years so why it is suddenly a big problem is beyond my ken. Up here Scotrail has had problems and there have been 2-day weekend breaks popping up. That too is an oddity as 60% of trains in Scotland are operated by drivers. Most trains also have a conductor on them as it happens too!

When you look at a large area such as the London and surrounds where trains running about with only a driver where is the RMT coming from? What about the Tube? On a wider thing on efficiency there are times when Network Rail can cause a head scratching but we also have to remember that there are far more people travelling on rail for a lifetime.

On the Borders Line I do happen to think that things are most certainly not as they should be and that timekeeping figure is not very good at all. One driver being sick and one tree are kind of daft excuses and all those trains cancelled and a bad timing situation are all wrong. Yes the number of passing loops may be a problem and might suggest a lack of proper planning but with the money spent on this long 33 odd mile re-opening things need to be better than at present. Considering that the passenger numbers were way beyond the numbers hoped for it makes getting things right need to be seen to or it will lose out.

rjhowie said:

I think the matter of who closes the doors which is one of the main contentions at the moment is being overdone by the RMT Union. There are routes going into London with as much as over 80% where drivers do the doors. Indeed this driver doing doors has went on for years so why it is suddenly a big problem is beyond my ken. Up here Scotrail has had problems and there have been 2-day weekend breaks popping up. That too is an oddity as 60% of trains in Scotland are operated by drivers. Most trains also have a conductor on them as it happens too!

When you look at a large area such as the London and surrounds where trains running about with only a driver where is the RMT coming from? What about the Tube?...

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As a retired English train driver with experience of working D.O.O (driver only operation) trains, I feel I that I would like to add my two penneth worth to this discussion. It is not meant as a criticism of anyone else's opinion, just an expression of mine drawn from my experiences.

Apologies in advance for writing a blog rather than a post but it's the only way I could think of to get my point across. In the scenario I describe, I chose sliding door stock because D.O.O on slam door stock years ago was a dismal and dangerous failure and didn't last very long, except for empty stock workings.

I have to say that I was never truly comfortable having to disconnect my mindset from the driving part of my job to concentrate on the safety and wellbeing of passengers getting on and off my train. It's a situation that demands that you are constantly alert for all the different kinds of hazards that can not only trip your passengers up but can also trip you up too (metaphorically speaking.) Driving and passenger concerns require two different approaches because, after all, it is - in my opinion - two different jobs.

Amongst other trains, I regularly worked fast (express) services and semi-fast D.O.O services between Birmingham and London. I had over 30 years experience under my belt when ill health forced my retirement. The semi-fast trains were sometimes 8 cars, sometimes 12 (Class 310/312's for a very brief trial period and later, more successfully, 317's and 321's)) and they stopped at a lot of stations over the 114 mile distance. The morning rush hour services into London were far and away the worst ones to work, for the obvious reason of numbers of people travelling. Let me give you a scenario.

Imagine a dull, cold morning with rain and a blustery wind. You're on your own working a very busy commuter train of, say, 8 cars in length with sliding door stock - and you're running late. You're approaching a platform with a red signal at the end of it and your train is slipping and sliding on the greasy rail. The side windows of the cab are all steamed up because of the cab heat (because we all like to be warm, don't we?) but you have that red signal firmly in your sights and in your mind as you look forward through the windscreen. At that stage you're not even aware of who or how many people are waiting for you. You only see that signal and your stopping point.

Now you've brought your train to a complete stop. Your mindset changes. It has to. You press the "door relase" buttons and people begin to get on and off your train. It's a mad rush because everyone just has to get on THIS train - even though there's another one 5 minutes behind. But that's the general public for you.

Don't forget, now, it's cold, it's wet and it's blowing a gale outside and your cab windows are steamed up so you can't see the TV screen/Mirrors outside your cab. Even using a cloth (or more often than not, your arm) to wipe the mist away on the window, visibility is poor. Your only option realistically is to open the window. Upon doing so, the wind and the rain drive straight into your face. As you can imaginge, you are not exactly thrilled at the experience.

Shielding yourself as best you can from the elements, you try to look down your train to monitor the comings and goings of a very unpredictable public (you don't just look at TV screens/Mirrors unless you really want to kill/injure someone.) You stand up, lean out of the window, look around as best you can; all the while getting cold and wet - and this is just ONE station.

You know you're running a few minutes late so you want to get out of here as quickly as possible. Finally, there appears to be a chance to "safely" close the doors. The mad rush has subsided. You press the "door close" button and your eyes rapidly switch from TV/Mirror to platform to train doors (what you can see of them) and back again. Back and forth, you're constantly looking for danger, for someone trapped by the doors (no door edge sensitivities here,) or latecomers thinking they can still get on the train. Suddenly, you have a latecomer. The doors have closed and he looks at you and shouts "Ah come on mate. You must've seen me running. You did that on purpose, didn't you?" (Wording kept cleaner than reality for decency's sake.)

You have to be immune to the abuse you get from these latecomers. They all think you've closed the doors on purpose because you think it's funny to watch them being left behind.)

Now - amid the verbal abuse - you hear the comforting "clicks" of the door interlock relays on the bulkhead behind you reassuring you that the doors have closed properly and this is confirmed by the rush of escaping air as your brakes release. Desperate to make sure you are not dragging anyone by the coat-tails - or any other part - and to leave your abuser behind, you open the throttle whilst still leaning out of the window and looking back (because the TV screen/Mirror is no help now you're moving away.) Relief! We're safely away!

WHOAAAAAA!!!! Hold on a minute, my friend. You forgot to change your mindset back to that of a driver! You're too busy thinking about passengers and fuming about the abuse you got from the latecomer.

You - and everyone else on board - are now in mortal danger. You forgot all about the red signal on the end of the platform and you are now heading - at speed - for the back of the train in front! (and you haven't yet realised - and probably won't - because your mind is still on your abuser.)

This happened so many times in reality that British Rail produced a video of the scenario, and many similar ones too, to be shown to drivers - and conductors too - to make them more aware of this pitfall. Thankfully, most incidents did not result in collisions. Those that did were minor, slow speed incidents - but frightening nonetheless.

This is just one example. I could list many more - particularly under the heading of "familiarity breeds contempt."

Think of a platform on a curve where the most part of your train is invisible to you except for on a small TV screen showing mulitple cameras pictures. Would you feel completely comfortable closing the doors knowing that there's even the slightest chance that you might have someone trapped? I've seen some horrific injuries over the years caused by people being dragged along a platform by a train. At best, you're scarred for life. At worst...

I don't care how much money the company can save and reinvest elsewhere (usually in some shareholders's pocket,) even with the best will in the World you cannot beat having a man (or woman) specifically looking after the passengers safe access (as passengers are totally oblivious of their own frailties in the railway environment anyway.) Oh, and on the Tube, they have sensitive door edges which cause doors to open again if someone gets an arm or a leg or a bag stuck in between them. Though if it's your coat or something similarly small, you're still going for an unwanted ride - and it happens quite regularly, though luckily not always with serious results.

Dave

Hi everybody.
Many thanks cyberdongree for that excellent depiction at #5 of this thread with regard to the problems encountered by rail drivers having to control train safety at stations when having the responsibility of controlling the coach doors. From my experiences of being a heavy goods vehicle driver many years ago, i can easily understand the point you were making in regard to cab windows and mirrors steaming after leaving the vehicle cab in poor weather. I also have great empathy with the point you make regarding having to get your mind back into “driving mode” after dealing with outside distractions.

However the dispute between the train operator(s) and the rail unions will eventually be settled, but the much more serious and deeper problems now besetting Britain's railways are certainly going to prove much more difficult to resolve. It is often quoted that passenger numbers on the UK railways have never been higher. That stated it is also a fact that many of those passengers who use the railways on a daily basis do so because there is little or no realistic alternative transport available to them other than rail due to the neglected state of Britain's road system.

In the foregoing it has to be recognised that despite many billions of pounds being invested in the rail network by successive governments of all colors since the mid 1980s, in recent years that investment has been “squandered” by Network Rail and its predecessor Railtrack. Many Network Rail projects have been beset by heavy cost overruns and late delivery. However it is without doubt the project to electrify the Great Western Mainline between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads/Cardiff/Swansea that has brought Network rail to the edge of disaster and possible disbandment by the government.

Originally the above project was costed in 2014 as eight hundred and seventy five million and would be completed by 2018. Last year answering questions to the House of Commons Transport Committee, Mark Carney CEO of network Rail admitted that the Project costs had increased to 1.6 billion and would not be completed until late 2019.

A few weeks ago Mark Carney was again called back in front of the same committee following reports of further delays and cost increases. At that meeting the CEO admitted that the cost of the project had now increased to a staggering 2.8 billion and the completion would now not take place until 2022. Perhaps more importantly Mark Carney was asked if the size of the cost overrun would mean the cancellation of other projects such as the upgrading of many rail lines and services in the north of England. In answer to that question Mark Carney replied “Quite Probably”.

The reason the question and the answer are so important is that those north of England rail upgrades were promised to the to the north of England population by the government as part of its election success. The foregoing along with such associated matters as southern canceling 350 train services every day due to staff shortages and sickness, and growing disruption in many other regions has brought the whole strategy of government preference towards the railways by way of its transport infrastructure planning into question.

In the above It is now being argued that everyone must have an alternative to rail commuting for their daily travel needs. In that the roads lobby are calling for a huge increase in road spending along with a policy not to put people back in their cars, but to encourage them to use vastly increased services in coach and bus operation.

I have always been a huge supporter of Britain's modern passenger rail network. However I now find myself agreeing with those who state that things cannot be allowed to continue to decline in the way that they are, and things have to change for the sake of the UK's economy and the hard pressed traveling public.

Bill

Yes the increase continually of passengers is positive and it s even more surprising when one considers the massive amount of cars on the roads nowadays at the same time! But anyway drivers doing doors have existed for not just the last couple of years but in hard practice many years and that has been the case up here too over the Border. At no time has Scotrail said they would not have conductors on trains and the majority situation already proves that one so there is a pointless old fashioned attempt to bring in out of date thinking. So up here and in principle generally there would not be wholesale getting rid of an army of staff.

Many decades ago as a young man I briefly worked on rail as a station booking clerk. We had along with a booking clerk on each shift 2 porters. Now they were a thing of the past and in essence all they did was to have a train away. They in due time vanished and had no effect on the railway at all.It was the same at places like the main stations here in Glasgow as one would see a virtual platoon of porters standing or sitting about doing nothing as time had moved on. They don't exist now and rail not suffered!

So as the rail company has said they are NOT sacking staff and the majority of trains have doors closed by the driver whilst there will still be conductors we are suffering from out of date moronic things from corners such as RMT. As for Network Rail i do feel tht some improvements are needed and they have to get used to the hard fact that rail is a big thing in Britain and continuing to be so so get on with it!

Meanwhile I wait to see if that lot at Holyrood in Edinburgh get off their backsides.

rjhowie said:

So as the rail company has said they are NOT sacking staff and the majority of trains have doors closed by the driver...

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# rjhowie - I'm afraid, Mr Howie, I think your comment above is simply not true. It is a MINORITY of passenger services that have door operation carried out by the Driver and whilst not exactly sacking staff they are making their positions so uncomfortable that many just walk away or go on long term sick leave. Furthermore, promises from privatised rail companies in Britain these days are like confetti. They just blow away in the wind. These companies don't make ANY profit at all. It's actually the public subsidy that keeps their heads above water and what they are doing is putting the taxpayers money (government subsidies) directly into their shareholders pockets as dividends. A rip off if ever there was one.

Another part of the farce is that Train Operating Companies (T.O.C's) are not allowed to buy or own their own stock. They have to lease it from privatised leasing companies (of which, I believe, their are only two.) The leasing companies won't buy stock unless a T.O.C places an order with them first and they will only purchase in small quantities in case they end up being left with it on their hands for one reason or another. It is also in their best interests not to be too keen to order new trains because they'd be left with all the old stuff (that they inherited from British Rail) just rotting away and earning them nothing. Thus we have the situation that where once B.R. ran 9 and 12 coach trains the current T.O.C's run 3 and 4 coach trains. Result? Massive overcrowding (and claims that passenger numbers are higher than ever.)

Long gone are the days, too, where we spoke of "connecting services" and "Relief Trains." There is no care for the travelling public and no spare capacity anywhere within the industry anymore. And still they try to trim it down to the bone, all in the interests of profit.

#wholbr - Thank you for your appreciation, Bill. I also wholeheartedly agree with you about the farcical activities of Railtrack, Network Rail or whatever else they're calling themselves this week. If you or I were to carry on in the manner that Mark Carney and (IMHO) his fellow crooks do we would very soon find ourselves in court facing some sort of fraud charges. Yet these people seem to get away with it wholesale.

If I gave you a quote to build you a house you would expect me to complete the project within the time frame and on budget - in fact there are often clauses which penalise builders for late completion. You would not simply get your wallet out and hand me a wad of extra cash if I turned up on your doorstep and said, "Oops. It looks like it's gonna cost a lot more than I said."

Just because it's taxpayers money, why should Network Rail be allowed to get away with it. They should be told, "That was your quote, now go and do the job. If you can't then you're sacked. The whole lot of you, because you're obviously incompetent and don't know how to give a proper estimate for a large project." They'd soon get their sums right then.

We all know what goes on when public money is involved. The cost of the job increases by about 50% because - they all feel - it's only the government. Why shouldn't we have a slice of the fatted calf like those politicians do. And so we go on.

British railways should be nationalised again at the earliest opportunity. I would withdraw all public subsidies from these so-called private companies and say, "Right, now let's see how viable your private company is." They would all be dead within a month I guarantee you. The railways would then have to come back into public ownership straight away.

The next step would be to set about getting rid of 25 or 26 separate un-needed company mangement structures and admin staff thus saving millions there alone. Hundreds of useless managers who know nothing about running a railway would then have to go and find a proper job (instead of one with a massive salary invented for them by their rich mates at the public's expense.)

Many of those employed on the railways in Britain these days are attracted by the bloated wages. Most of these people want the money but they don't want to do the job. In my day we bent over backwards to help Joe Public when the proverbial hit the fan. Nowadays they just go and hide somewhere. It's time to bring back a nationalised railway system before all the genuine old British railwaymen with the know how to run it are either retired, infirm or dead.

Dave

PS. One man operation? There were no "on train" staff in this instance and station staff are so poorly trained they barely know what a train looks like let alone how to do a simple job like re-secure an internal roof panel. (A 10 year old could have done it.) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37117172

No I am NOT wrong and I will emphasise this by informing you that the company that covers the whole of Scotland where I live, namely ScotRail has 60% of services with drivers opening doors! Oh and driver operating in GB is a wide thing and HAS been for years so it is most certainly not some new issue. Greater Glasgow (again where i live) which is one of the biggest suburban networks outwith London is vastly driver operated as it happens.

rjhowie said:

Greater Glasgow (again where i live) which is one of the biggest suburban networks outwith London is vastly driver operated as it happens.

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...However, the West Midlands - the BIGGEST and busiest suburban network outside London - has only ONE regular D.O.O passenger service in the area (the one mentioned in my previous post [#5]) and Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle etc, etc are pretty much likewise. Greater London and Glasgow are the exceptions to the rule not the norm.

I am not seeking an argument Mr Howie, but as a former driver with many friends and former colleagues still working within the driving arena I feel that I must point out that large scale D.O.O passenger trains are not actually the reality that T.O.C's would have you believe. They have been fiercely resisted nationally by A.S.L.E.F (Train Drivers Union) until safety could be proven to be paramount on each individual route that T.O.C's have attempted to introduce them. Many times the danger has far outweighed the alleged benefit and T.O.C's have abandoned their attempt - but you don't read about that in the press.

Furthermore, there is a massive difference between services where drivers open and close the doors and D.O.O services. Whilst I have no experience of Scottish services within the last 15 years or so, many Virgin Trains services (north and south of the border) have trains where drivers operate the doors. These are NOT D.O.O services and there is a very strict communication code between driver and on train staff whose job it is to ensure passenger safety. At no time does the driver even look at a passenger. That is the responsibility of the "on train" staff. When they decide it is safe to do so, they instruct the driver to close all doors. After that they ensure that all doors are properly closed and locked and that no-one is trapped or has their clothing caught up. They then signal to the driver that it is safe for the train to depart from the station. Safe driver operation of the doors, but NOT D.O.O.

Driver Only Operation itself covers a multitude of trains. All empty coaching stock and parcels services are now D.O.O. Pretty much ALL freight trains are D.O.O - except for those carrying extremely dangerous goods (like Hydrocyanic Acid, where train crews are not even allowed to walk alongside the wagons [and they don't] unless they're wearing the special protective clothing provided for them in the loco cab and brakevan (caboose) respectively.) However, there are staff designated to go out to freight trains in the event that there is a fault on the train. The driver informs the control via radio and then sits on his backside until the designated person arrives and cures the problem - too often causing chaos as services block back behind him.

All of these changes have not come about overnight. I remember meetings and discussions with B.R back in the 1980's about D.O.O. operation. These things have come about very slowly because of the well-founded fears of Union men and women having to be looked at and catered for within operational guidelines. Had it been left to B.R management - and modern T.O.C's in particular - I have no doubt that there would have been several unnecessary deaths as a result of their "devil may care" attitude to the whole thing and I'm pretty damn certain that they would only have responded to these situations after the death or serious injury of members of staff or the public resulting in them receiving heavy fines and/or threats of imprisonment. That would have been no recompense to the families of the dead or seriously injured, would it?

Whilst I accept and agree that there is a place for Driver Only Operation on some passenger services, I think that place is a limited one. Maybe in outlying rural areas where services are used as a local necessity but are not crowded out. I shudder to think what could happen if there was a major collision resulting in the death of the driver working a service over busy multiple electrified lines within a busy suburban area and the passengers were left to fend for themselves. How many would be electrocuted or hit by a passing train unable to stop in time? The thought turns me cold.

Dave

We are differing on opinion which is life. Considering the greatness of the Greater Glasgow system and doors controlled by drivers and that the majority of the rail company is 60% driver is NOT to be overlooked in a debate. In addition as I also pointed out driver control is not something new but has been in existence for decades oh and by the way, when younger I too worked on the railways so equally it cannot be taken that statistics that do exist can be ignored because of that background! The company here in the northern part of the Kingdom has made it very clear it is sacking no-one and conductors will continue. It is all progress and the days of just living in the past to suit some is not the way ahead. It is a load of negative fuss those in Unions that have been yiping about drivers doing doors!

On a more local note one hopes that the Border Line negatives are sorted soon and not spoil the success. Each of the lines re-opened up here hve been great so catch up down south!

At least we agree on something :hehe: - that we have a differing opinion. I don't dismiss your arguments completely, my friend, and take on board all that you say. I'm sure you have a very valid point regarding Scottish railways. However, don't dismiss the Unions as moaning trouble makers. For over a hundred years it is the Unions, not the railway companies, that have ensured your (and everyone else's) safety.

Dave

Can I say cyberdongreen you are totally and very wrong re Glasgow not being as told you and do feel free to acknowledge the proof!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_rail_in_the_United_Kingdom also states that too so nice try. It does emphasise the matter I intimated about and the door situation is to my mind a pointless un-required thing by those who cannot note the facts!

From a staunch and proud Glaswegian!

:hehe: I'm not going to get into an argument over the difference between "Glasgow is Scotland's biggest city and has the UK's largest suburban rail network outside London..." and "Birmingham has the highest proportion of rail commuters in England outside London." It serves no purpose.

However, as someone who has considerable personal experience of Driver Only Operation of passenger trains I stand by what I say. They are not the safest way to travel - particularly for the very young, old and the infirm - and any expansion of such working practices should be viewed with much concern.

Dave

Well we can all of course stand by what we say and I am doing exactly the same as you and when it comes to that suburban position and Glasgow you are ignoring the facts - I think the link I gave you only emphasises and confirms things as such but you ignore it as it does not suit! The same has appeared in a rail magazine a while ago but the link is more widely accepted. This includes the size of the actual network.

On the matter of the safety stuff that side falls into the modern stuff about Health and Safety which sometimes becomes exaggerated. With widespread use of conductors which is a FACT the safety thing is being blown out of all proportion. Do we have widespread problems? no we certainly don't so your stance is a wee bit huffy puffy. In addition simply skipping the fact that the system we have today has been operating for donkey years so you are i am afraid a little bit out. As for your experience that is not conclusive at all and the hard general fact is that a train with a driver and a conductor is perfectly okay and shows a safety angle and it works fine. In the old steam days we had a guard in a rear van and hundreds of trains with individual compartments that he could not reach! Indeed I would say you are just sailing along with the RMT who are like the people who act like the Luddites. Forums are fo all opinions of course but I did think it odd when giving proof of something you totally ignore it because it does not suit - so much for experience.

What is your problem with a driver opening the doors and a conductor going between carriages?

Regards from the confirmed biggest suburban system outside the capital.

Oh my dear Mr Howie, it is quite obvious to me that you are a bigoted ignoramous. Proof? Proof of what? I don't care how big Glasgow's network is. My argument concerns the (poor) safety record of D.O.O.. The fact that you consider my 30+ years of experience as a train driver (12 hours a day, 7 days a week and all that that involved) to be inferior to your FACTs that you read on Wikipedia proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that you are.

I underwent some major surgery earlier this year. How confident do you think I would have been in my surgeon if he'd said to ne, "It's OK Dave. I've read all about it on Wikipedia. It'll be just fine." ?

Anyone with any intelligence knows that Wikipedia is little more than a gathering of subjective opinions - some are fairly accurate, most are not. Whilst some of the information can be informative and enlightening, any intellectual will tell you that most of it should be taken with a large dose of salt. The link, therefore, that you put forward proves absolutely nothing - except, perhaps, the height of your ignorance. You sound to me like a ten year old boy arguing with his mates about who's got the biggest penis. You certainly don't sound like the working class Glaswegians that I know.

The fact that you were once a "booking clerk" does not give you any insight whatsoever into the operational side of the footplate and the problems experienced therein. It gives you no sound base of experience either from which to offer serious advice on the pros and cons of the D.O.O system - no more so than anyone else who read about it in a book anyway. Practical experience wins every time. Furthermore, I'm not sure you fully understand the difference between Driver Operation of Doors and Driver Only Operation. Oh, and we have not had this system for donkeys years; unless donkeys only live for about 25 to 30 years these days - and I don't pretend to be an expert on that. Maybe you are, Mr Howie, and you can enlighten us. Wikipedia perhaps?

The only conclusion I can arrive at, Mr Howie, is that you are a shareholder in one or more of these privatised T.O.C's and maximising your share of the profit is all that you care about. Perhaps it would do you good to go in search of some of the accident reports regarding incidents where people (or their clothing) have been trapped in sliding doors and the poor individual concerned has been dragged along the platform resulting in serious, life changing injury - or is that kind of thing negligable in your book? In my book, once is awful. Twice is a tragedy. Occasionally is totally unacceptable.

For your information, those doors are held closed by air pressure regulated at 40 p.s.i.. A fully grown adult male struggles to pull those doors apart on a stationary train (I, and many of my colleages, have tried it numerous times.) What chance, then, has a young lady got if she's trapped in the doors by her coat tails? Is the answer to that on Wikipedia? Or is she to be considered just an unfortunate statistic? (along with all the others.)

Oh, and on the Trade Union front? I do not blindly follow the R.M.T. - though I fully support their argument. I was a fully paid up member of A.S.L.E.& F (the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen) for more than 30 years. A.S.L.E.F leads from the front in the argument over D.O.O operation (and yes the pun is fully intended.) They have led from the front for over 150 years, Mr Howie. Are you saying you and Wikipedia are more qualified than them in the D.O.O. argument? Further, they have used the services of far better qualified experts than YOU, Mr Howie, to explore the pros and cons of Driver Only Operation. Indeed - to the best of my knowledge, anyway - they have NEVER had to resort to wikipedia to back up their argument when T.O.C's have called their evidence into doubt.

May I suggest a slice or two of humble pie, to you Mr Howie?

Good day to you Sir.

Dave

cyberdongreen said:

What chance, then, has a young lady got if she's trapped in the doors by her coat tails? Is the answer to that on Wikipedia? Or is she to be considered just an unfortunate statistic? (along with all the others.)
Dave

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I can see I'll have to be very careful only to wear jackets. Any mode of travel has risks even my pink bicycle. Having traveled on trains with no drivers I must confess I felt quite comfortable, secure and safe. Passengers, even female ones, are fully capable of making decisions on whether to take the train based on safety considerations including avoiding travel near football grounds on match days.

Luv Karen

Originally Posted by cyberdongreen What chance, then, has a young lady got if she's trapped in the doors by her coat tails? Is the answer to that on Wikipedia? Or is she to be considered just an unfortunate statistic? (along with all the others.)
Dave

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Way back when I was very small, my mom's arms got stuck between the folding doors on a Green line PCC trolley (tram). She was in the process of placing me on the steps because I was very small and the driver closed the doors on her and was ready to pull away!

If it wasn't for another passenger that alerted the driver, I would have been motherless! The driver then opened the doors and my mom was able to climb aboard.

KarenB said:

...Having traveled on trains with no drivers I must confess I felt quite comfortable, secure and safe. Passengers, even female ones, are fully capable of making decisions on whether to take the train based on safety considerations including avoiding travel near football grounds on match days.

Luv Karen

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Hi Karen, I apologise if you took offence at how I worded things regarding the above. It wasn't my intention to belittle ladies in any way. I did not wish to infer any inferiority of any type but merely to give warning of what women as well as men could be up against if caught by the coat tales between a pair of these doors. As an "older" gentleman I'm not always very savvy about the pitfalls of modern day equality stuff or political correctness and I tend to say things in the manner that they form in my mind. I must say, though, that in the later years of my career I worked with some very capable ladies, physically strong as well as mentally, and some who even put their male counterparts to shame. It made no difference to me whether the person or people I had to work with on a particular day were male or female. All I asked was competence. The majority of times competence was a given.

Furthermore, contrary to my above rant, I am not usually a vindictive person and I like to be as agreeable as possible whenever mixing with other people. However, that is not always possible and these days (must be an age thing ) I can't help but let some people know truly how I feel when I think they are being pig headed,obstinate and/or ignorant.

I also must say, that I too have travelled on driverless trains without concern or incident. There is definitely a place for such a mode of transport in certain circumstances - like the Docklands Light Railway and other low speed routes. I am concerned, though, about the idea of introducing some of this technology on higher speed routes over greater distances. Maybe it's inevitable at some point in the future but, for me anyway, technology has a lot of ground to make up before I would trust such a thing.

Kind regards

Dave

Having been written about in a book with a whole chapter dedicated to me, spoken at an inner city conference at 3 workshops, met very important public figures (including 2 First Ministers from different countries in the UK), interviewed by BBCRadio for 15 minutes, held a very important civic office for 12 years you really have been too too full of yourself in trying to degrade me cyberdongreen. Just because you have driven trains does not automatically make you Moses and you only have an opinion like anyone else but you have proved yourself very snooty and silly describing me and my background as a bigoted ignoramus?? Well you can have your childish opinion on my city's big network but in commenting on it twice in your snobby manner do yourself no good whatsoever because the truth is no use to you. We all have of course a right to voice on a situation and you and I have both done so but you have acted very pompous as if you are inherently right and anyone else is wrong. Finally, I object very strongly to your description of me and having been here for years damn angry.

Pity my thread on a re-opened part of our railways has been taken over by a very narrow minded full of himself driver. You certainly do something about bigotry as done it without realsing it!Hhhm, maybe as narrow and out of date as your pals in the RMT?!


To refuse to understand that there are many others in this country who have my stance and others that may have yours is ignored by you as you think you are it and anyone who does not go into your corner is stupid or ignorant. It is unfortunate that an issue like drivers and conductors has morphed into my thread but your not very subtle slight at my area and ridiculing someone with a different view on what drivers and conductors should do is very insulting. With so many areas operating like mine up here with the majority of doors done by drivers and still have conductors widens who it is that is acting stupid, insulting and just as well this is in a forum!

Going back to the Borders Line I hope to do a trip from the second biggest suburban area on it and am eternally happy you will not be the ignorant driver. You insulting man.