borderreiver
Well-known member
1909 NER D.178 Ordinary Third
Specimen numbering for the Diagram 178 built post-1912
The NERA article on the D.178 claimed that they replaced the Diagram 15 6-wheel Thirds.
Using the specimen numbers post-1912 I have examined which carriages carried those numbers before 1913.
Obviously not all D.15 numbers were taken by D.178 but I am interested to see which numbers the post-1912 builds took.
The NERA carriage numbering book finishes in 1912, so D.178s built 1909-1912 have taken the number listed in the columns compiled in December 1906. Carriages built post-1906 and pre-1913 strike through the old carriage, the previous holder is not always legible.
1913 builds
35 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
81 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
146 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1913.
493 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
877 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1913.
1719 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
3175 - Previously 1882 D.30 - a 24ft 4 Wheel Invalid Saloon - withdrawn by 1912 - struck through in the carriage list.
3569 - Previously 1884 D.119 - a 33ft 6 Wheel Lavatory Third ex-ECJS Third No.88 - non-corridor - converted 1906 but withdrawn by 1913.
1914 builds
43 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1914.
128 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1914.
467 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1914.
517 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1914.
555 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1914.
958 - Previously 1885 D.59 - 3 compt 31ft 4 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1914.
3561 - Previously 1895 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1914.
3565 - Previously 1884 D.139 - 4 compt 35ft6in 6 Wheel Luggage Lavatory Third ex-ECJS - withdrawn by 1914. - N.B. NE D.139 re-used in 1933 when ex-GNR 65ft6in 12-Wheel RC of 1906 transferred to NE Area as No.22262
3578 - Previously 1881 D.118 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Lavatory Third ex-ECJS Third - withdrawn by 1914. - N.B. NE D.118 re-used post-grouping when ex-GNR 58ft6in 8-Wheel TK of 1911 transferred to NE Area.
1915 builds
42 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
124 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
371 - Previously 1886 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1915.
863 - Previously 1886 D.7 - 7 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Luggage Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1915.
1048 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
1504 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
1758 - Previously 1885 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
2076 - Previously 1884 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
2090 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
1916 builds
61 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
250 - Previously 1890 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1916.
425 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
827 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
914 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
1601 - Previously 1886 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1916.
2057 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
1917 builds
4 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
143 - Previously 1886 D.7 - 7 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Luggage Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1917.
225 - Previously 1890 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1917.
394 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
503 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
607 - Previously 1908 D.160 - 7 compt 49ft 8 Wheel bogie Ordinary Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1917.
828 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
885 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
1524 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
1921 builds
8 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
23 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
330 - Previously 1888 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
408 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
564 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
870 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1921.
1065 - Previously 1888 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
1766 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
2535 - Previously 1887 D.19 - 3 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1921.
1922 builds
7 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
47 - Previously 1886 D.7 - 7 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Luggage Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1922.
352 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
475 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
845 - Previously 1884 carriage note "t" - a 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1922.
1472 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
1759 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
2040 - Previously 1887 D.19 - 3 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1922.
2203 - Previously 1890 D.19 - 3 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1922.
1923 builds
39 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
193 - Previously 1889 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
274 - Previously 1886 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1923.
360 - Previously 1889 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
1774 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
2014 - Previously 1909 D.145 -5 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Van Compo - withdrawn or written off in accident by 1923. N.B. One of only 3 built 1909-1910 - Nos. 465, 1454 & 2014 1 First & 4 Third Compartments.
2042 - Previously 1887 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1923.
2115 - Previously 1888 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
This is not a complete picture, since it is not a list of all D.178 carriages built between 1913 and 1923, nor is it a list of all D.15s built between 1881 and 1894.However, overall it is clear that between 1913 and 1922 the N.E.R. was clearing out its old stock, of which the great majority were six wheel carriages. It is also clear that several D.7 52ft Bogie Luggage Composites were either scrapped or written off in accidents between 1913 and 1922. I have speculated elsewhere about the fate of the 52ft CG after corridor stock took over the Newcastle - Liverpool and Leeds - Glasgow express passenger trains and it seems that some of them may have been without work. If the losses are due to accidents then somehow the 52ft CG were somehow particularly unfortunate. I personally lean towards withdrawal and scrapping was their fate, though underframes, bogies, interiors, doors. windows and even panelling may have been recovered for use on new build stock.
Below, a 32ft Diagram 15 6-wheel Third Class carriage, No. 408, built 1887 and whose number was taken by a 49ft Diagram 178 bogie Third Class carriage in 1921. This means that it is likely the 6-wheel Diagram 15 was withdrawn in 1920 or earlier in 1921.
Specimen numbering for the Diagram 178 built post-1912
The NERA article on the D.178 claimed that they replaced the Diagram 15 6-wheel Thirds.
Using the specimen numbers post-1912 I have examined which carriages carried those numbers before 1913.
Obviously not all D.15 numbers were taken by D.178 but I am interested to see which numbers the post-1912 builds took.
The NERA carriage numbering book finishes in 1912, so D.178s built 1909-1912 have taken the number listed in the columns compiled in December 1906. Carriages built post-1906 and pre-1913 strike through the old carriage, the previous holder is not always legible.
1913 builds
35 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
81 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
146 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1913.
493 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
877 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1913.
1719 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1913.
3175 - Previously 1882 D.30 - a 24ft 4 Wheel Invalid Saloon - withdrawn by 1912 - struck through in the carriage list.
3569 - Previously 1884 D.119 - a 33ft 6 Wheel Lavatory Third ex-ECJS Third No.88 - non-corridor - converted 1906 but withdrawn by 1913.
1914 builds
43 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1914.
128 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1914.
467 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1914.
517 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1914.
555 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1914.
958 - Previously 1885 D.59 - 3 compt 31ft 4 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1914.
3561 - Previously 1895 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1914.
3565 - Previously 1884 D.139 - 4 compt 35ft6in 6 Wheel Luggage Lavatory Third ex-ECJS - withdrawn by 1914. - N.B. NE D.139 re-used in 1933 when ex-GNR 65ft6in 12-Wheel RC of 1906 transferred to NE Area as No.22262
3578 - Previously 1881 D.118 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Lavatory Third ex-ECJS Third - withdrawn by 1914. - N.B. NE D.118 re-used post-grouping when ex-GNR 58ft6in 8-Wheel TK of 1911 transferred to NE Area.
1915 builds
42 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
124 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
371 - Previously 1886 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1915.
863 - Previously 1886 D.7 - 7 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Luggage Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1915.
1048 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
1504 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
1758 - Previously 1885 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
2076 - Previously 1884 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
2090 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1915.
1916 builds
61 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
250 - Previously 1890 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1916.
425 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
827 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
914 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
1601 - Previously 1886 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1916.
2057 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1916.
1917 builds
4 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
143 - Previously 1886 D.7 - 7 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Luggage Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1917.
225 - Previously 1890 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1917.
394 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
503 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
607 - Previously 1908 D.160 - 7 compt 49ft 8 Wheel bogie Ordinary Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1917.
828 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
885 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1915.
1524 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1917.
1921 builds
8 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
23 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
330 - Previously 1888 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
408 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
564 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
870 - Previously 1884 carriage note "q" - a 5 compt 30ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1921.
1065 - Previously 1888 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
1766 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1921.
2535 - Previously 1887 D.19 - 3 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1921.
1922 builds
7 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
47 - Previously 1886 D.7 - 7 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Luggage Compo- withdrawn or written off in accident by 1922.
352 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
475 - Previously 1886 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
845 - Previously 1884 carriage note "t" - a 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Third with no drawing available in 1906 - withdrawn by 1922.
1472 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
1759 - Previously 1887 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1922.
2040 - Previously 1887 D.19 - 3 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1922.
2203 - Previously 1890 D.19 - 3 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Van Third- withdrawn by 1922.
1923 builds
39 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
193 - Previously 1889 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
274 - Previously 1886 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1923.
360 - Previously 1889 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
1774 - Previously 1885 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
2014 - Previously 1909 D.145 -5 compt 52ft 8 Wheel Bogie Van Compo - withdrawn or written off in accident by 1923. N.B. One of only 3 built 1909-1910 - Nos. 465, 1454 & 2014 1 First & 4 Third Compartments.
2042 - Previously 1887 D.9 - 4 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Luggage Compo- withdrawn by 1923.
2115 - Previously 1888 D.15 - 5 compt 32ft 6 Wheel Ordinary Third- withdrawn by 1923.
This is not a complete picture, since it is not a list of all D.178 carriages built between 1913 and 1923, nor is it a list of all D.15s built between 1881 and 1894.However, overall it is clear that between 1913 and 1922 the N.E.R. was clearing out its old stock, of which the great majority were six wheel carriages. It is also clear that several D.7 52ft Bogie Luggage Composites were either scrapped or written off in accidents between 1913 and 1922. I have speculated elsewhere about the fate of the 52ft CG after corridor stock took over the Newcastle - Liverpool and Leeds - Glasgow express passenger trains and it seems that some of them may have been without work. If the losses are due to accidents then somehow the 52ft CG were somehow particularly unfortunate. I personally lean towards withdrawal and scrapping was their fate, though underframes, bogies, interiors, doors. windows and even panelling may have been recovered for use on new build stock.
Below, a 32ft Diagram 15 6-wheel Third Class carriage, No. 408, built 1887 and whose number was taken by a 49ft Diagram 178 bogie Third Class carriage in 1921. This means that it is likely the 6-wheel Diagram 15 was withdrawn in 1920 or earlier in 1921.
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