West Coast Railways Banned Again from UK Rail Network.

Great Western : https://www.gwr.com/ & https://www.gwr.com/about-us/our-business/our-vision

The Driver is a Great Western employee but was working for West Coast on his rest day (Moonlighting on his day off) . The train was a West Coast train and the driver was on that day in the employment of West Coast . Had he had been hired in from Great Western then this situation would of been slightly different but as far as GW where concerned their employee was on a Rest day .

Some TOC's and FOC's allow employee's to work for second companies on their days off as long as they (the employee) manages their work times correctly so as not to break any minimum rest periods between turns etc.

wholbr said:

Hi everybody


I am afraid I have to disagree with the above teddyfoot. The full official name of the TOC is First Great Western. They are a subsidiary of First Group a large British public transport company involved in bus, coach and rail operations. First Great Western is the name you will find on any restriction ticket (other than an open ticket). I am aware of this as I travel many miles on their services each week by way of living in North Somerset.

Therefore GWR does not exist but the name of the mainline from London to the West Country is the Great Western Mainline which First Group advertise.

Bill

Click to expand...

So what is this then? https://www.gwr.com/?gclid=cizvy4jopmwcfxez0wodhted8q

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_operating_trains_in_the_United_Kingdom

Hi again everybody.
Teddyfoot, clam1952, In regards to your postings at #61 and62 of this thread, there are only two establishments in the UK that give unequivocal information in regard to the existence and ownership of commercial organisations.

The first of the foregoing would be Companies House where the registration of commercial organisations are held, with the second being the London Stock Exchange where the ownership, interests and financial prices of publicly owned companies are quoted on a daily basis. Therefore, and with the greatest of respect I encourage both of you to reference the web address below which quotes first Group, it share price and it's UK interests as of last Friday,(22nd of April 2016).

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/share_prices/share_price/symbol-FGP

As you can see in the above there is no company quoted as Great Western Railway registered on the London stock exchange as that is an advertising subsidiary of First Group. in all likelihood the driver of the locomotive involved in the Bath Spa station incident would have held an employment contract under the name of First Group or First Great Western.

Teddyfoot, nexusdj In regard to whether the driver was “ moonlighting” I certainly would not know and I suspect no one else can be certain In regards to that situation at this stage of the investigation. However, if the driver was “ moonlighting” without the clear written acceptance of that fact by First Group then without doubt that person will face very severe disciplinary action even if he carried out the secondary employment within the limitations of the drivers hours regulations. The forgoing is due to the fact that if any driver is working for two different organizations each must send records of the employees work hours to the other. That stated, I feel it is more likely that the driver would have been subcontracted to West Coast Railways by his employer first Group

teddyfoot, clam1952,nexusdj, again with the greatest respect, I feel that we are discussing the minutiae of the driver's employment rather than the main substance of this thread which is the behaviour and safety record of West Coast Railways. Clam1952 in his posting at hash #58 of this thread requested that a prospective be placed on the eight incident investigations over the last 12 months that have been carried out, or are in the process of being carried out in regard to the twenty seven other train operators Running on the UK network.

The foregoing clam requested should be compared to the record of West Coast Railways over the same period. However, this total on looking at amounts to seven investigations over thirteen months which have had to be initiated to look into the safety discrepancies of this one heritage railway company (Namely west Coast Railways) alone. As I stated in my earlier posting today, I believe the above very much brings into perspective the excellent record of all the other train operating companies as compared to the “disgusting performance” of the “clowns” managing and operating WCRC. However, there seems to be many supporters of Heritage rail tours being allowed on the national network that are very reluctant to discuss the above subject matter in this thread.

Anyway,Its a weekend and weekends were made for football, so i am of to see the ManU match and debate that action later on other forums.
Bill

I am well aware about First Group. Nevertheless their trains are labelled as GWR and therefore people will not be as pedantic as you and will refer to them as Great Western or
GWR.

Hi everybody.
Teddyfoot, In regards to your posting at #64 of this thread,can i apologize if I appeared to be pedantic in my earlier posting. However,as you undoubtedly know it was Isambard Kingdom Brunel who brought into being the Great Western Railway by way of his engineering genius. That great feat was joined by others such as the Clifton suspension bridge in Bristol and also the SS Great Britain which was one of the first truly ocean going steam-powered passenger ships.

Several years ago a poll was carried out by the BBC to elect by way of viewers who was thought to be the greatest individual to have ever been a British citizen. Two names ranked side by side at the conclusion of that poll. Those names where Winston Churchill and Isambard Kingdom Brunel. In the foregoing I passionately agree with the two names which were jointly brought forward as the greatest that ever walked in these islands.

Therefore, I ( and I am sure many others) do take great objection when a run of the mill transport conglomerate such as the first Group “hiJack” the name and work of Isambard Kingdom Brunel for no other reason but pure modern day commercial gain. I certainly have no objection to organisations benefiting by way of capitalist commercial gain. However, I believe that gain should come about by way of that individuals or organisations own entrepreneurial efforts and not on the back of the greatest individuals or organisations of the past.

In the above the name Great Western Railway should remain solely alongside the name of Isambard Kingdom Brunel for history to appreciate in that one right and not be tarnished by association with the name of a modern day commercial company. First Group will in all likelihood be unable to register the name of Great Western Railway with companies house as it would undoubtedly be challenged by objections.

The above will always remain as nothing more than an advertising ploy in this company's hands. Therefore, I hope many on this forum will agree with me in referring to the company as first Group or First Great Western and the line as the Great Western mainline into the foreseeable future.

Now, to return the thread to its original theme, surely after two safety incidents at stations involving the mark one coaches, there is now a very strong case for a permanent ban on the use of these carriages on the mainline network ?

So, back to the football forum. Hey, Manchester United 2, Everton 1. we are going to win the cup, were going to win the cup, E-I-ADEO were going to win the cup.
Bill

Can't say I'm over impressed with them swiping the Gods Wonderful Railway name either.

May find this interesting? HMRI Explains decision to lift West Coast Railway's prohibition.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...cision-to-lift-west-coast-railway-prohibition

wholbr said:

Now, to return the thread to its original theme, surely after two safety incidents at stations involving the mark one coaches, there is now a very strong case for a permanent ban on the use of these carriages on the mainline network ?

Click to expand...

I thought the theme was whether West Coast Railways are in a fit state to be a TOC, not whether the equipment they use is safe or not. You seem to still be trying to confuse the two, that the equipment is guilty by association.

nexusdj said:

Great Western : https://www.gwr.com/ & https://www.gwr.com/about-us/our-business/our-vision

The Driver is a Great Western employee but was working for West Coast on his rest day (Moonlighting on his day off) . The train was a West Coast train and the driver was on that day in the employment of West Coast . Had he had been hired in from Great Western then this situation would of been slightly different but as far as GW where concerned their employee was on a Rest day .

Some TOC's and FOC's allow employee's to work for second companies on their days off as long as they (the employee) manages their work times correctly so as not to break any minimum rest periods between turns etc.

Click to expand...

Not allowed in Australia. Certainly not allowed to work rest days either. Fellow killed himself covering a heritage run whilst working 21 days straight.

amigacooke said:

I thought the theme was whether West Coast Railways are in a fit state to be a TOC, not whether the equipment they use is safe or not. You seem to still be trying to confuse the two, that the equipment is guilty by association.

Click to expand...

Hi everybody.
amigacooke, great to see you join the thread again as you always add plenty of “ bounce” to any debate.

in regard to your above posting, I feel that not many people would believe that West Coast Railways are nothing else but “completely inept” in handling the safety requirements for their heritage rail services based on their past record. If you then add to the foregoing the undoubted safety problems of running mark one coaches on Britain's modern day network, then there is a far higher risk factor involvement when combining the two above bodies.

However, it may come as a surprise to amigacooke and other forum members that I do have some sympathy for West Coast Railways, or at least their staff on the train involved in the Bath Spa incident. If anyone takes that incident as it seems to have unfolded, the problem of safety with the mark one coaches lack of any central door locking system would seem to be insolvable.

As anyone who travels regularly Britain's Passenger railways will know that when a train arrives at a station the primary responsibility for the train safety passes from the driver to the conductor or in the case of HST services the train manager. it is the foregoing person who unlocks the doors on arrival and then ensures that all passengers and doors are secure before departure,all from a central door locking position. If a train pulls up short of the platform or overruns the same, the train manager or conductor will not unlock the doors until the train is aligned correctly.

However,If press and media reports are correct, when the heritage service made up of Mark 1 coaches arrived at Bath Spa station the West Coast Railways onboard train staff and first groups station staff suddenly found themselves in a situation that they had no control over whatsoever. The train had pulled up short with the rear two coaches not aligned alongside the platform. In the forgoing, doors were immediately being opened by passengers including those in the two carriages which were not alongside the platform. That situation I feel placed the two above groups of staff in an impossible safety control position as the main factor in the problem was not a human one at that point, but one of being the Mark 1 carriages having no central door locking system.

I am sure that many in industrial transport safety will feel (as I do) that it is impossible in today's environment to write a genuine numeric or generic risk assessment that would bring a mark one coach operational risk factor to within acceptable limits under the conditions of the UK 1974 Health and Safety at Work Act. However, as a situation of a train hauling mark one coaches pulling up short of a platform is surely is a very predictable risk prospective, a dynamic risk assessment should have been in place for such an event in which staff had been trained in and would follow. However,That would seem not to have been the case if the press and media reports in regard to this incident are correct.

In the above had a dynamic assessment been drawn up and ready to “swing into place” it would have informed the train manager to immediately contact the driver and inform him/her not to move the train further under any circumstances and also ensured that the on-board train staff move quickly to the coaches that were not alongside the platform to secure the safety of those passengers as quickly as possible.

Therefore in answer to amigacooks above posting, then yes, both the mark one coach safety shortcomings and West Coast Railways managerial lack of safety awareness and culture are guilty by association in this incident.The foregoing may well be combination which could prove humanly lethal at some point.

Bill

If they have to stop using the Mk.1 coach, they would still have the same problem with the Mk.2, as I am not aware of any 'central locking system' on those.

Saieditor said:

Not allowed in Australia. Certainly not allowed to work rest days either. Fellow killed himself covering a heritage run whilst working 21 days straight.

Click to expand...

In the UK train companies used to work to the Hidden* standards which stated no more than 13 consecutive turns worked or a maximum amount of 72 hours worked over 7 days before a driver should have a day off whether they want to or not . Also 12 hours minimum rest between duties . A few companies have since abandoned "Hidden" and have reduced the 12 hours minimum rest between duties but only when it involves non safety critical duties.

With employment via two companies then the possibility exists for a driver to break those maximums but they will face severe disciplinary action if found out , That's why some companies that do allow drivers to drive elsewhere insist of seeing timesheets for their work at the other company .

* Hidden came from the recommendations of the Hidden report (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hidden001.pdf ) following the Clapham rail disaster where it was found out that the signalling technician that had caused the disaster had had one day off in thirteen consecutive weeks worked !

Hi everybody.
Stagecoach one of Britain's largest train operating companies posted there first quarter trading results for 2016 in the last few days. The figures show a 3% decline in profits based the same quarter last year, much of which they put down to “uncertainty” in the British Rail industry. Stagecoach advised that its revenue in the UK over the last year has been declining as it cautioned the outlook for the UK rail industry was becoming increasingly challenging. A full report on the Stagecoach statement and trading position can be seen by following the below link:-

http://www.digitallook.com/news/new...ver-challenging-uk-rail-outlook--1138997.html

As can be viewed above, the company states that the slowing growth on the railways can be put down to changing economic conditions, terrorism threats and cheaper fuel prices leading to prospective passengers using their cars instead of the railways. On some lines such as the West Coast Mainline and the Great Western Mainline passenger numbers actually declined by as much as four percent. However, being a train operating company Stagecoach are unlikely to link or criticise their own poor service to the public which undoubtedly has played a part in the above.

A recent survey of regular rail users found that between fifteen and twenty five percent of those who regularly use the railways as their main form of commuter transport were dissatisfied with the service they received from Network Rail and the train operating companies. The foregoing figures are a major factor which has to be dealt with if Britain's railways are to regain the confidence and respect of its users and through that again resume the growth rates achieved over the past decade.

The above means that Network Rail and the main train operating companies have to concentrate on nothing else but delivering a high standard of service to It's hard pressed passengers. There has to be an end to Network Rail staff being regularly diverted from the above due to having to continually investigate safety indiscretions by one heritage rail operator to the detriment of all other rail companies and their passengers.

The above also means that Network Rail and the National Railway Museum must also put an end to wasting taxpayers money on such projects as the Flying Scotsman which has amounted to an expenditure of over six million pounds. Many feel (including myself) that the forgoing money would have been better spent on such projects as revamping Britain's dilapidated stations to the majority benifit of the above dissatisfied daily rail commuters.

In the 1950s Britain's daily commuters turned away from the railways in favour of car transport. This decade could see history repeating itself unless the railways can prove they are a cost-effective, clean and reliable source of transport into the future.The stagecoach trading results demonstrate that the “writing is on the wall” for passenger rail transport in the UK unless things dramatically change.

Bill

I would think a big part of why people aren't using the railways as much is the ridiculously high ticket prices. According to thetrainline.com, a standard class, one-way ticket for an adult male from London Kings X to Edinburgh costs £125, plus supplements. I'm not sure how anyone could think that that is acceptable in this day and age. Nevermind capping fare increases, ticket prices should be reduced, full stop. I think an upper limit of £50 for any one-way ticket in the UK is reasonable, although the lower, the better. Secondly, there should be a rethink of how long-distance trains are run. Currently, most Cross-Country services are operated by Voyager DMU, which are cramped, smelly and generally uncomfortable. Not to mention the fact that they are only 5 coaches long. Cross-Country services should be loco hauled with at least 7 coaches, preferably about 10. Of course, this would require the construction of new "Mark 5" coaches, but you could probably recoup some of the cost by selling the Voyagers (and perhaps the Pacers?) abroad somewhere. Locomotives would have to be sought; I suspect that if all the Voyagers were withdrawn tomorrow there would not be enough 37s, 47s, 67s and 68s to cover for them all. More locomotives could probably be leased from preservation groups like Caledonian Sleeper are doing, or perhaps the TOCs could go radical and snap up a few of the unrestored Bulleid Pacifics dotted around the country. A Merchant Navy on the 8:55 Bristol-Glasgow service? Yes please!
On a more serious note, I'm not sure money should be spent at stations as you suggest, wholbr. After all, the whole point of railways is that you don't spend much time there! Although I do think they should be kept cleaner, some of them (particularly in urban areas) are a right mess.

wholbr said:

There has to be an end to Network Rail staff being regularly diverted from the above due to having to continually investigate safety indiscretions by one heritage rail operator to the detriment of all other rail companies and their passengers.

Click to expand...

Network rail employs 34,000 people. How much of an impact do you think a handfull of those investigating issues has. The safety indiscretions are worrying and shouldn't happen, however, I wouldn't think the primary reason for stopping them is how much time they take to investigate.

wholbr said:

The above also means that Network Rail and the National Railway Museum must also put an end to wasting taxpayers money on such projects as the Flying Scotsman which has amounted to an expenditure of over six million pounds. Many feel (including myself) that the forgoing money would have been better spent on such projects as revamping Britain's dilapidated stations to the majority benifit of the above dissatisfied daily rail commuters.

Click to expand...

Rather subjective. I can't remember the last time I spent time at a station, but it was good to see the scotsman up and running again.
My local station (Rochester) has just been refurbished at a cost of £26m. Your £6m saving by letting the scotsman rust away won't go very far on a nationwide program of station improvements will it.
It also depends on your perspective..... I can't stand football, so for me the fact that the FA spent £2.5m of public money in failling to get the 2018 World Cup is a waste of money that could have been better used elsewhere.

wholbr said:

In the 1950s Britain's daily commuters turned away from the railways in favour of car transport. This decade could see history repeating itself unless the railways can prove they are a cost-effective, clean and reliable source of transport into the future.

Click to expand...

wholbr said:

The stagecoach trading results demonstrate that the “writing is on the wall” for passenger rail transport in the UK unless things dramatically change.

Click to expand...

I would hardly say a 3% drop was 'the writing on the wall'. I doubt the company even regard that as a 'blip'
Rail journey numbers have double in the last 20 years (http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/em...rneys-across-britain-have-doubled-in-20-years)
If you go up 100%, and then down 3%, then surely you are still up 97%.

If you read this (http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/em...ulator-shines-light-on-rail-industry-finances). Point 3 says "Compared with 2013-14, industry income from passenger fares has increased by £0.4 billion (5%), to £8.8 billion in 2014-15. This is primarily because the number of passenger journeys increased by 4%.". So, it went up 5% last year, and its down 3% this year... that's still 2% up. hardly a worrying decline I would have thought.

Mike.

Hi everybody.

Mike10 said:

Network rail employs 34,000 people. How much of an impact do you think a handfull of those investigating issues has. The safety indiscretions are worrying and shouldn't happen, however, I wouldn't think the primary reason for stopping them is how much time they take to investigate.

Click to expand...

Mike 10, most of the above 34,000 are employed in the daily running of the track infrastructure and maintenance on the same. The office of the rail regulator has now been combined with the offices responsible for road regulation and is now jointly known as the office of road and rail. The former combined total employees of both offices has now been drastically cut and therefore having to carry out 6 investigations into the transgressions of West Coast Railways has undoubtedly taken many hundreds of hours of those limited employees working time.

The above investigations have taken over a year to complete. However, we must now add one more ongoing investigation to the above total that being the recent safety transgression at Bath Spa station.

Mike10 said:

Rather subjective. I can't remember the last time I spent time at a station, but it was good to see the scotsman up and running again. My local station (Rochester) has just been refurbished at a cost of £26m. Your £6m saving by letting the scotsman rust away won't go very far on a nationwide program of station improvements will it.

Click to expand...

The cleanliness and condition of stations is of paramount importance as that is what greets your passengers (no customers) each time they use the Railway. Commuters spend a great deal of time waiting at stations especially with the punctuality record of many of the train operating companies and Network Rail. It may be the case Mike10 that your local station has been refurbished but many have not especially here in the West Country.

One of my local stations Weston-super-Mare has not been refurbished since it opened at the start of the last century and in all honesty it is “ simply the pits” it would cost far less than the six million plus spent on the Flying Scotsman just to give the whole Place a coat of paint as that would brighten the daily lives of the long suffering commuters that pass through their everyday

Mike10 said:

I would hardly say a 3% drop was 'the writing on the wall'. I doubt the company even regard that as a 'blip'. Rail journey numbers have double in the last 20 years.If you go up 100%, and then down 3%, then surely you are still up 97%.

Click to expand...

Mike10,The chief executive of Stagecoach whose report for the third financial quarter of 2016 I cited to in my posting at #72 of this thread was referring to the market trends in the rail industry for that particular three months. All “ successful” companies refer to the most recent trends in the market that they are trading into, as that gives them the information they need for forward spending and investment. if a market trend is down on any financial quarter a company may defer investment and curtail spending while the company awaits the next financial quarter results to see if the trend has changed. if you look at the Stagecoach performance for the last three financial quarters you will see that the first quarter was a two and a half percent rise, the second was a flat trading position, with the third being a 3% overall reduction in the rail sector market. If the foregoing is not the “ writing on the wall” for Britain's railways then I do not know what is.

Companies never look back over more than the last few months as reference to trading conditions, for anything else is a sure way to disaster. Microsoft did not watch market trends when it came to the mobile market, and look what's happened to them.

Mike10 said:

It also depends on your perspective..... I can't stand football, so for me the fact that the FA spent £2.5m of public money in failling to get the 2018 World Cup is a waste of money that could have been better used elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Mike, with reference to the two and a half million of public money used in the FA bid for the 2018 World Cup, then that finance was brought forward by ten major city councils such as Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Newcastle, Bristol among others. The funding was sanctioned and separately voted on by the elected city councillors in each case.

When the above bid failed almost all of those cities had the money refunded by either the local Premier league clubs or directly by the FA themselves. in the case of Manchester both ManU and Man City reimbursed the council from both the clubs own funding accounts.

As Slack Bladder ( sorry mis-type there and my delete key is not working, should have been Sep Blatter) Has now admitted to the Swiss police that the decision had been made to give the tournament to Russia prior to the bidding process even being completed, the FA are now taking legal action against FIFA for return of all Englands fithteen million total bid expenditure.

if you now compare the above with the National Railway museum's six the half million expenditure on the Flying Scotsman you will see that no one on the authority that sanctioned that expenditure was elected to their position by anybody. The NRM as many will be aware is run under the trusteeship of the National science museum. Those trustees are “ appointed” to their highly salaried part time jobs by other various public bodies. The forgoing body is made up of names such as, Lord Grade former chairman of the BBC, Dame Fiona Woolf, the Right Honourable Lord Willets, Lord Faulkner of Worcester who amongst others would without doubt know everything there is to know about steam engine restoration.

The day-to-day management of the National Railway Museum is in the hands of Paul Kirkman a senior civil servant whose former position was one of head of the Arts and creative culture Industries at the Department of Culture media and sport. Without doubt he to would know all there is to know about Britain's rail industry and the restoration of “ old tin kettles”. None of the foregoing illustrious names ever consulted with anyone in regard to the expenditure on the Flying Scotsman least of all Britain's taxpayers and regular rail users.

Forum members can follow the below link to a report on the purchase and restoration of the Flying Scotsman:-
http://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/flying_scotsman_report_october_2012.pdf

As anyone can see from the above the project was nothing short of total financial mismanagement and engineering ineptitude all at the taxpayers expense.

Bill

wholbr said:

most of the above 34,000 are employed in the daily running of the track infrastructure and maintenance on the same.

Click to expand...

Agreed, so how much of an impact (that is "to the detriment of all other rail companies and their passengers") does having a few of the very small number not involved in doing that investigating issues actually have? You didn't answer that question.
You seem to be implying that by having to investigate these issues the day-to-day running of the railway is impacted. I am arguing that it is not in fact the case.

wholbr said:

The office of the rail regulator has now been combined with the offices responsible for road regulation and is now jointly known as the office of road and rail. The former combined total employees of both offices has now been drastically cut and therefore having to carry out 6 investigations into the transgressions of West Coast Railways has undoubtedly taken many hundreds of hours of those limited employees working time.

Click to expand...

And if they weren't doing that would they be out greasing points, or would they be stretching out what they were working on and drinking coffee.

wholbr said:

The cleanliness and condition of stations is of paramount importance as that is what greets your passengers (no customers) each time they use the Railway. Commuters spend a great deal of time waiting at stations especially with the punctuality record of many of the train operating companies and Network Rail.

Click to expand...

Maybe the TOCs should be spending some of their profits on some paint then. Is it the tax payer's responsibility to do that.
Anyway, my point was that the £6m wouldn't go very far on a national basis. With 2,500 stations that's about £2,500 for each one.

wholbr said:

Mike10,The chief executive of Stagecoach whose report for the third financial quarter of 2016 I cited to in my posting at #72 of this thread was referring to the market trends in the rail industry for that particular three months. All “ successful” companies refer to the most recent trends in the market that they are trading into, as that gives them the information they need for forward spending and investment. if a market trend is down on any financial quarter a company may defer investment and curtail spending while the company awaits the next financial quarter results to see if the trend has changed. if you look at the Stagecoach performance for the last three financial quarters you will see that the first quarter was a two and a half percent rise, the second was a flat trading position, with the third being a 3% overall reduction in the rail sector market. If the foregoing is not the “ writing on the wall” for Britain's railways then I do not know what is.

Click to expand...

So the most recent short term trend is down, it may come back up. I think you are being melodramatic foretelling the demise of the railway on the basis of 3 months usage in a 150 year history.

wholbr said:

Companies never look back over more than the last few months as reference to trading conditions, for anything else is a sure way to disaster. Microsoft did not watch market trends when it came to the mobile market, and look what's happened to them.

Click to expand...

Really? so all the building companies should have just packed up and gone home after 2008 should they as there was obviously never going to be money to be made building houses in the future after the downturn then was there. How silly of them to not forsee the obvious end of the housebuilding industry. Barratt Homes profits jumped 40 per cent in the past six months to nearly £300m. I bet they feel stupid not having seen the writing on the wall back then.

wholbr said:

Mike, with reference to the two and a half million of public money used in the FA bid for the 2018 World Cup

Click to expand...

I really couldn't care less about the details, my point was that one man's "waste of money" is another's "sound investment". It's a matter of your viewpoint.

wholbr said:

As anyone can see from the above the project was nothing short of total financial mismanagement and engineering ineptitude all at the taxpayers expense.

Click to expand...

Its a public body, what did you expect.

Mike.

Hi Everybody.

Mike10 said:

You seem to be implying that by having to investigate these issues the day-to-day running of the railway is impacted. I am arguing that it is not in fact the case.

Click to expand...

Mike10,I am very much stating that safety investigations do impact on the day to day running of any company main office, as that is my own experience. Safety investigations nearly always take a very long time to complete as all those involved have to be interviewed along with witnesses to the event. In the case of mechanical failure etc maintenance staff, installers of equipment and even at times the designers of the equipment also need to be interviewed. During the course of an investigation the foregoing people sometimes have to be re-interviewed on two or three separate occasions.

It is very often that those who feel they may be held responsible for an incident are reluctant to make any statement or give incorrect information when they do. in the foregoing, company disciplinary procedures at times need to be invoked, or even court proceedings brought forward in which case trade unions and solicitors can become involved. All the above takes a huge amount of time and often involves the most senior figures in various departments of any company.

Even when the main investigation work is contracted out to an independent industrial safety consultant company, many hours can be spent by senior staff within the company where the incident took place, reading reports, acting on those reports, bringing forward safety improvements which always call for other work to be put aside and delayed.

Mike10 said:

And if they weren't doing that would they be out greasing points, or would they be stretching out what they were working on and drinking coffee.

Click to expand...

With reference to the above, obviously not. in the case of Network Rail and the Office of Road and Rail, their main duties would obviously be working on such matters as applications for schedule changes from the various train operating companies, maintenance planning, cost projections, line upgrades and anything that is involved in the everyday running of a railway. Quite a lot of work for the limited staff now on site I would believe.

Mike10 said:

Maybe the TOCs should be spending some of their profits on some paint then. Is it the tax payer's responsibility to do that. Anyway, my point was that the £6m wouldn't go very far on a national basis. With 2,500 stations that's about £2,500 for each one.

Click to expand...

The TOCs are only responsible for running the stations on a franchise basis. I believe it is Network Rails responsibility for main items of maintenance and upgrading. As you state Mike10, six million will not go very far on a national basis, but if only one station is upgraded with that money, then that is very much an improvement for the persons using that station being customers of our railways often on a daily basis. Therefore the taxpayer money would be far better spent in that one action rather than on restoring some “old tin kettle” which along with others very much contributed to bringing Britain's railways to its knees throughout the 1950s and early 1960s.

Mike10 said:

So the most recent short term trend is down, it may come back up. I think you are being melodramatic foretelling the demise of the railway on the basis of 3 months usage in a 150 year history.

Click to expand...

Railway passenger numbers may begin to increase again as you state Mike10. However, the Stagecoach financial report advised that passenger numbers have either been flat or down by 3% in the last 6 months period. The foregoing has to be placed the longside the report that found between 15 and 25% of Regular commuters on Britain's railways are dissatisfied with the service they receive from Network Rail and the train operating companies.

Therefore, in the two above facts there is very strong evidence of a loss of confidence by users of Britain's railways. In the above, to state that the “ writing's are on the wall” for the network unless there are some very marked changes made I believe is not an over exaggeration, with companies such as Stagecoach having every reason to be concerned.

Mike10 said:

Really? so all the building companies should have just packed up and gone home after 2008 should they as there was obviously never going to be money to be made building houses in the future after the downturn then was there. How silly of them to not forsee the obvious end of the housebuilding industry. Barratt Homes profits jumped 40 per cent in the past six months to nearly £300m. I bet they feel stupid not having seen the writing on the wall back then.

Click to expand...

The 2008 crisis was not a market trend it was a financial collapse by the whole banking industry in leading economic countries. However, it was because those financial institutions did not recognise the market trend towards high risk lending especially throughout 2007 that the above financial collapse was brought about.

Some in the the building industry as in all other industries survived by making drastic cuts to their cost base which involved wholesale redundancies which deepened the recession brought about by the collapse of the finance industry. Those companies which acted quickly enough by “cutting their cloth according to their needs” survived that recession to await the better times of the present. Many others in the foregoing did not, especially in many sectors of the transport industry, that being world's largest industry.

Anyway I am (along with millions of others throughout the world) off to watch the Leicester city v ManU match this afternoon. As a lifelong ManU supporter I have to say that should we lose, no one will be happier than i will be to see Leicester lift the Premier League trophy. What a full season performance.

Bill

>The 2008 crisis was not a market trend it was a financial collapse by the whole banking industry in leading economic countries. However, it was because those financial institutions did not recognise the market trend towards high risk lending especially throughout 2007 that the above financial collapse was brought about.

Rubbish, Canada was unaffected. I think my bank lost $100 million or peanuts. Even in the UK it was borrowing short term on the markets and lending long on mortgages that brought down the first bank and that's been a recipe for disaster since Adam was a lad.

Cheerio John

wholbr said:

Therefore the taxpayer money would be far better spent in that one action rather than on restoring some “old tin kettle” which along with others very much contributed to bringing Britain's railways to its knees throughout the 1950s and early 1960s.

Click to expand...

Really? Thomas and his cronies were responsible for the demise of British Railways in the time period mentioned?

And there's me thinking it had something to do with:

• the ruinous pressure put on the railway network by the second world war
• the lack of available investment funds due to the government being broke after the second world war
• the rise of road based transport and the investment in the infrastructure to support that growth

But all the time it was a cunning Sodor Conspiracy. Well, well, live and learn.

Hi Everybody

amigacooke said:

Really? Thomas and his cronies were responsible for the demise of British Railways in the time period mentioned?

Click to expand...

amigacooke said:

And there's me thinking it had something to do with:

• 
  [*=1]the ruinous pressure put on the railway network by the second world war
  [*=1]the lack of available investment funds due to the government being broke after the second world war
  [*=1]the rise of road based transport and the investment in the infrastructure to support that growth

But all the time it was a cunning Sodor Conspiracy. Well, well, live and learn.

Click to expand...

Amigacooke, I would very much agree with the points you make in your above posting in regard to the The effects on Britain's railways of the second world war, lack of investment and the rise of Road based transport. However, and to use your phrasing “Thomas and his cronies” did very much contribute to the demise of the British railways throughout the 1950s and 60s.

As was discussed in another thread on this forum only a few weeks ago, when Britain's railways were nationalised in 1948, the then Labour government under Clement Attlee decided that the railways main source of motive power would remain as steam. The foregoing decision was made for Social reasons in that the government wished for all those that had given so much during almost 7 years of War would have secure employment into the future.

With the railways remaining as steam powered, the mining and rail industries were able to offer much of the above employment with huge numbers of employees being required in both industrial sectors. However, the foregoing did not come without a price.

Steam power on such a large scale proved to be very expensive and highly polluting with Britain's railway stations being very uncomfortable places for users as a carpet soot and grime covered everything with the timetable being a work of fiction.

The government rail modernisation programme of the mid 1950s promised to bring forward diesel powering but this proved to be a slow process with Steam still being used on a large scale into the 1960s. In the meantime the road based diesel powered truck and the petrol powered car was proving to be a far better alternative to Britons slow, dirty and unreliable railways in the public eyes.

It was always going to be that the private car would come to dominate personal transport in the 1960s, but the continued use of steam on British railways undoubtedly far beyond its necessary life added to the demise of the network as people purchased private cars far earlier than had need to be the case.

It was Dr Beeching with his axe in 1962 which really signalled the end of the steam era and with it mass employment on the railways. However, despite the many thousands that were made redundant in the rail industry no one not even the trade unions protested to any degree in regard to seeing the end of steam motive power in the rail sector.

So, in answer to your above posting amigacooke, yes, it was to use your phrasing once more “Thomas and his cronies” who played a very substantial part in bringing Britain's railways to its knees throughout the 1950s and 1960s. It is now just part of Britain's railway and overall transport history, through which we all have lived and learned.

Bill