Jasonbarnos special thread to discuss things one on one with Tony Hilliam

Great, just what we need. Seriously guys, you can try to push past the atrocity that is T:ANE, but I don't think people are going to forget it any time soon. Going for the next money grab may be your MO, but if any real "change" is to be implemented, it should start with fixing the damn game as it is currently.

Count me out of your sales pitch, I've already gotten screwed over by the last release. Currently, NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING, about T:ANE has been a "win-win" for the community and N3V. I spent over $60 on a game that currently wouldn't exit beta at any other company. "Sharing time between two projects" almost always results in the older product getting pushed out. Seriously, we still haven't gotten the DRM free version we were promised (no, I do not mean an offline switch), and half of the "new" features don't even work properly. Heck, you didn't even KNOW about one of the features your supporters were trying to push until they shoved it in your face! The community has gotten flattened by DRM and lack of content creation tools, you have to use a backwards and annoying way to edit builtin routes, you still can't even edit builtin content properly, alpha channels still don't work, the game is still unoptimized, backwards compatibility is shot unless you want to spend most of your free time updating content to "current standards," we can't use non-DLS content (some of the best out there) in multiplayer unless we hack into the game and change code around... I could go on all day!

If you really can't see that your customers are unhappy, then there is a bigger issue here.

EDIT: Also, a SUBSCRIPTION model? REALLY? REALLY? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Let me get this straight: you aren't confident enough in sales, because T:ANE was a complete flop, so you resort to gouging users with a subscription system to a "new feature" that you are claiming you will implement? Seriously? You have got to be joking. Make a good game that will sell, don't rely on a BS strategy that has marginal success with SUCCESSFUL games... Or are you not confident enough that this PR and sales ploy will generate enough sales for another ski vacation? Geez guys, you really are taking Trainz in a new direction... Towards a white porcelain bowl.

You have an opinion and yet it differs from the majority of users. Please read the story about Ryan who is over the moon about TANE. Please also review the Survey feedback that shows 75% of users think TANE is the best version ever. If you don't like the product, that is fine, but please don't spend your time on our forums spoiling things for the many thousands of people who do not agree with your opinions and who are keen to see Trainz continue to improve over time.

You also miss the point that there is no "older product". Features that are fixed in TANE port directly into Trainz "Next". But it doesn't really matter what we say or do, you will find an issue with it (such as the yet-to-be-announced subscription pricing that you have decided already is "price gouging"), so once again can I suggest you quit the forums and find something more constructive to do with your time.

Tony_Hilliam said:

You have an opinion and yet it differs from the majority of users. Please read the story about Ryan who is over the moon about TANE. Please also review the Survey feedback that shows 75% of users think TANE is the best version ever. If you don't like the product, that is fine, but please don't spend your time on our forums spoiling things for the many thousands of people who do not agree with your opinions.

You also miss the point that there is no "older product". Features that are fixed in TANE port directly into Trainz "Next". But it doesn't really matter what we say or do, you will find an issue with it (such as the yet-to-be-announced subscription pricing that you have decided already is "price gouging"), so once again can I suggest you quit the forums and find something more constructive to do with your time.

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You cite polls, yet there have been polls taken at Trainsim and other sites that show otherwise. There wouldn't be a conflict of interest anywhere, right? And no, I don't care about a child's opinions who really probably doesn't contribute to the community at this stage in the game. Yes, it's a touching story. Does it matter? Not one. Single. Bit.

And yes, I, and many others take issue with bad and dare I say harmful marketing, sales, and business practices that have killed off many a good game series in the past. So, I suggest you take a look outside of the bubble here and actually take action regarding what the community wants. The truth is, they don't want another game. They want the current one fixed and more importantly, they want a company that provides an environment that is helpful to the community and reacts based on their wants and needs instead of stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

Currently, you are saying that Trainz NEXT is going to be the "next" Trainz. That would make T:ANE the older version, and therefore the older product.

Charging based on a subscription in any scenario and then marketing that as a "feature" is widely regarded as price gouging. It's not a feature if you have to pay on top of the price of the game to use it. It may work on mobile devices, but no, you will find that most computer users frown upon it.

It doesn't matter what you say or do, because you will always find a way to spin the facts, and people like me will always be here to set them straight.

I do what I wish with my time, by the way. Suggestions may be considered, but as proven here, implementation is optional!

You can see I have moved this discussion to a new thread so that we can discuss things one to one without censorship and without taking our other thread off topic.

People want the game improved - I agree - that is why the current game is continuing to be developed. And time will tell whether the direction we have chosen is "an environment that is helpful to the community"

Not everyone likes TANE as much as the next person, but the majority of the feedback I get (from hundreds of people) is that we're well ahead of TS12 and well ahead of where we were 6 months ago. I use the product every day (and TS12 most days) and I know which one I prefer and by a huge margin.

Subscription was announced now so that it wasn't a surprise later on. In case you haven't noticed, there are many software products, including games that work very well under a subscription model. ANd for clarity, this is not an "extra" cost - it replaces the initial cost of the product, so a one month subscription is much cheaper than the full product price that would otherwise be charged

And just as you get to chose what to do with your time, we get to choose the best direction for our company to ensure that we can afford to continue development.

If I gave you a choice of this plan or "we shut the company down" - I wonder which you would chose? The later guarantees that no future updates would occur - would you be happy with that?

Nice job removing my post.

The mere thought of N3V marketing another game when their current product isn't even fixed is disgusting to me, and many others as well. Seriously, a subscription based system? Are you not confident that this version won't flop like the last one? As far as many are concerned, this is a step towards the white porcelain bowl.

I rattled off a paragraph long list of features that were broken in T:ANE, and now you want us to pony up AGAIN? Nope, count me out.

But the thing is you have angered so many of the core users of this sim that they are leaving. There are other groups that are now MILES ahead of what Trainz is capable of, and right now it's stagnating. I might jut be one person, but I'm somewhat acting as a liaison for those who have been shouted down and don't feel like speaking up because they know that they are going to get shouted down again. This is all going down the wrong path, and it is so aggravating to see that your company is so blind to everyone else. You may have people liking T:ANE, but the ones who really matter are starting to become disillusioned with everything this sim stands for.


Over the past few months, most of the major creators have either stopped posting altogether or have moved away. There's a huge reason behind that, but every time somebody references the point you just dance around it and pretend everything is a-ok.

You have your opinions, while I have some insider knowledge that indicates your opinions are off the mark.

Have people left? Yes. Have more people joined? Yes. Is the trend upwards (i.e. a faster rate of customer acquisition)? Yes.

Which "most major creators" are you referring to? We are working with more than two dozen content creators who are working on some of the most impressive content ever seen in Trainz.

Are some people disillusioned? Yes. Are they the minority? Based upon hundreds of survey responses (which is a skewed result I admit since people who have left are less likely to respond) the are a lot of people who are extremely happy with TANE and the future of TANE.

Opting in to the future is optional, so feel free to hold your money and miss out on the next wave of content creation that will appear as a result of our continued development efforts.

I would not be happy if you shut the company down, no. The problem lies in the fact that many do not feel that way any more. Most don't care, and with the last release, so many just don't find it worth it to work in a sim that is just perpetually broken.

It doesn't matter what kind of business model you work off of, to be quite honest. I do see a subscription model in most cases, especially this one, to be gouging, even though it generates a continuos source of income, because especially in a cast like T:ANE, people spend so much time waiting for the game to be fixed properly that they will have spent more than the game would have cost itself many times over before they can actually play it.

The real way to make sales is to, number 1, fix the current game. That's non-negotiable. To even hint at the R&D for a new game before the current one is worth the disc it comes on is VERY bad, not just for PR, but for the longevity of the franchise. A game like Fallout is still plagued by rumors of bugginess and crashes, despite the current one being much improved, because for the longest time the developers neglected that problem. Now you are experiencing that on a much larger scale.

Issues like DRM and backwards compatibility are what is going to make the difference here. Fixing the major problems, based on community views, is much better than trying to move on. Trying to muscle through and shove your view through just makes matters worse.

You mean the same roster of content creators you've been working with since this T:ANE mess started? Yeah, that figures. Meanwhile your main DLC provider pretty much said "screw it, let's do our own thing" and then to boot half of the community started their own forum to get away from the shouting down nonsense here!

Take a look at major content creation threads. There are significantly less now than there were a year ago, or even two or three years ago.

As you admitted, your insider knowledge is skewed. Of course, a known fact of statistics is that supporters are more likely to vote on issues than detractors, and that is a major problem (or sometimes lack thereof) for the media when trying to poll voters on opinions of certain issues.

The next wave of content creation... Somehow I remember that being said with the release of T:ANE. Meanwhile, most creators are creating content in TS12 now and then if it works in T:ANE, it's an added bonus on the side.

I don't care about a child's opinions

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I do - not all customers are created equal, but every dollar spent by parent's of 9 year old train fans is equal to every dollar spent by anyone else. The "younger train fan" is a significant slice of our market, and that is why you should care - as every sale adds to the bottom line which gets reinvested into future development.

I may as well ask, under your grand plan, how do you propose we pay the wages for the next year, 3 years, 5 years?

"Fix the product first" would be the expected answer. Well we're working on that - but not exclusively. At some point, the many thousands of customers who don't share your opinion will be happy to pay for a new product. And that is why we've announced this now. Trainz Dev will shortly receive the first release of the "new branch" of development. This diverges from TANE and no doubt, as an in-development build it will potentially have some major issues. But in the Trainz Dev branch, another release will follow not far behind. With the support of people who understand the concept of release early and release often, we will identify issues quickly and address them.

Later in the year we will go into a beta cycle - unlike the previous beta cycle where we were also developing a brand new engine, this beta cycle will be far more stable (although there will still be times where we take a backwards step in order to move forward.

And then, before you know it we will be getting close to release of the new product where people will begin so see why we needed some pain up front to make the big gains in the end ... and then we'll all live happily ever after.

Tony

I can understand the financial reasons for the new branch in Trainz but your announcement confuses me.

Does the new release stand beside what we all consider to be our Trainz, and allows multiuser, presumably with purchasable routes and content and probably without some of the content and route creation goodies of the core program. Where does T:ane SP1, SP2 etc. stand in this? Will the upgrade of OUR (the true)version contain all the updates of the subscription version or do creators now have to switch to the new subscription model even though we have no interest in Multiplayer?

It does seem that users will split between Creators in all its forms and Players who just want... Don't know what they would want, I can't see into that murky area.

Peter

Peter

Well, I am glad you finally asked. One of your main competitors has a very sound business strategy for dealign with that very issue.

DLC is the mainstay of many companies in similar positions to N3V. Granted, this means not completely antagonizing your providers out of the business, but working with providers to create content that has high demand and high reusability. This sim is in need of many things, routes (don't have to be large, they can even be a few baseboards for switching), rolling stock, buildings, the works. Working with specific developers to create exclusive DLC, and here's the catch, for multiple versions will generate tons of revenue. Limiting DLC to one specific version therefore limits the sales. If you sold something like, say, a two baseboard switching route with a new switcher model for TS12 (pre and post SP1) and T:ANE, you may gain twice the revenue that you would normally get from a normal distribution plan. No, before you ask, I do not mean that halfway plan you tried to implement a few months ago. I'm talking about qualified content creators who know what they're doing.

To boot, N3V isn't all invested in Trainz. SimCentral offers a wide variety of games outside of the Trainz franchise, and those definitely contribute to revenue as well.

Yet another way would be to allow users to reskin and repaint DLC locomotives and rolling stock, and then creating a plan for a payware release of those reskins as well.

There are many, many options that can come before creating a new game, and most of them are tried and true.


And yes, every dollar spent is equal, but you were specifically referencing a review and using it as a basis to promote your simulator as the greatest in it's field. Those two things are apples and oranges. Yes, he enjoyed it. Does that mean that is spectacular? To him, yes. To everyone else? No. It's a touching story, and it indeed shows how much a simulator or game can shape a life, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the point.


To your last referenced point, all but one of the major content releases in the past month have bene for TS12 (LNER A4, JR content, RRM content, Davesnow's content, DericM's content, White Pass and Yukon, Trainboi1's content, MSGSapper's content (he created separate versions), et cetera.) The only one that comes to mind who didn't was Cloaked Ghost, but people didn't like that move too much.

I fail to understand with the dislike that you have for tane why you are still in this forum. When I dislike something to the degree that you do, I remove myself from the thing that I dislike. I don't continue to bring up the same tired points time after time. There are a great many that like Tane and have few problems with it. It is hardly the disaster that you make it out to be. Go back over to crossties and wait for them to actually release anything.

DLC is already part of our plans and works in conjunction with any other plans - so we see that as additional revenues rather than the only revenues. The recent announcement of TD2016 and Trainz Model Railroad (which does focus on smaller routes) are effectively DLC offerings, and each week we generally release a new DLC item.

In terms of whether sales are limited by focusing on one platform depends on whether there is sufficient incentive for people to upgrade. Ask the game console manufacturers on the pros and cons of backwards compatibility.

I do not mean that halfway plan you tried to implement a few months ago.

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Not sure what you mean?

In terms of working with "new people" we have at least a dozen people who have never released work through N3V before working with us now.

Yet another way would be to allow users to reskin and repaint DLC locomotives and rolling stock, and then creating a plan for a payware release of those reskins as well.

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Nothing is stopping people getting in touch with DLC creators and doing that now. We'd love to see more of this, along with more simple sessions for existing routes.

The SimC store actually concentrates only on Trainz related items now as the other products did not make enough to justify hosting them (perhaps surprising but true).

TS12 releases of course work in TANE as well (for the most part) and have had 4 more years development time under their belt. Our DLC sales stats indicate that TANE has overtaken TS12 usage and the trend is again strongly in TANEs favour.

The only one that comes to mind who didn't was Cloaked Ghost, but people didn't like that move too much.

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Which "people" again. How many liked it versus didn't like it?

Can I finish by asking for your definitive bullet point list of what is "broken" in TANE rather than the broad brush "nothing works properly" description. It would be very helpful indeed as the goal next week is to lay out the plan of what will be fixed when - if it's not on our list, I know for sure it won't ever get fixed.

I'm going to step in here with some stuff, but not the usual antics today.

I do like the quoting of Ryan from the story there, but this is actually something that may not work in your favor. What exactly is the pricing model for the subscription based services? Second, what is that doing to people like Ryan? Do you really think his parents will pay the monthly fee, when they can continue to use TANE after paying their one time fee for the game? I think not, it really doesn't make sense. If TANE works for him, and he loves it, I don't really see where there is going to be a drive to pay a monthly fee for train sims, when there are several others on the market, granted they are not as easy as Trainz to build routes in, but they do not charge subscription fee to use the program. I'm thinking you pick this idea up from Adobe, except their products are far more expensive than buying all of the Trainz series combined. A monthly subscription actually makes their products more affordable to the general market, not just a few professionals and businesses that have the money.

It works like this:
Ryan can beg all he wants, but at the end of the day, when it comes down to paying for important bills, Ryan's food, and etc vs. a monthly subscription when you already have a working TANE, working TANE will win every time.

Iracing, a popular racing sim, is similar in this light, and is so expensive that really only an exclusive club can truly enjoy all of the features. The people who can't afford it, are playing games like Gran Turismo, Project Cars, NFS, Forza Motorsports, Assetta Corso, which don't charge monthly, and then don't rape you for content after you pay.

I think at the end of the day, well actually, before this fiasco begins, this needs to be heavily thought out, or even reconsidered, because content creators will also be affected as well. I would go as far as to say, that they would leave the community, or be forced to make all content payware in order to pay the fees. Why would you possibly want to alienate the wonderful people that donate to the game free of charge?

Just as helpless as somebody else here said:

And no, I don't care about a child's opinions who really probably doesn't contribute to the community at this stage in the game. Yes, it's a touching story. Does it matter? Not one. Single. Bit.

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But see, this is where you're also wrong Jackson, I'm not taking up for Tony one bit, but I would not say he hasn't contributed anything. He already has, he bought the program giving N3V the money to continue development (or failure) of the Trainz series. He's also contributed a grand idea, which probably will never see the light of day, but is a fantastic science fiction thing for future train simulation programs.

Does it matter?
I say yes it does, because he at 9 years old, is providing better ideas than Tony can think up in his office or home. Come on Tony, are you going to let a 9 year old out think you? He could probably run the company better than you too.

You know may just be a little guy, and no corporate executive, but with places I've worked and with brief experience in management, it seems to me that a business, whether a large corp. or a small one, goal first and foremost is to cater to every single customer, no matter what. I have had GM's and AM's go nuts at the thought of loosing a single customer or client. Not necessarily because of the money, but because of the experience that customer went through to get to the point to completely ditch that company. And more often then not, that experience is not isolated, people catch wind of it and it spreads, and this is what sets apart a business that lasts, and one that fails. Now it seems to me that the head of this company, who has taken the time to interact with his customers (which is a great thing, but..) would want to be neutral, and not be divisive among a decent sized demographic of users of the product, many of whom make the 3rd party content that actually set this game apart from the rest.

I'm trying to be undivisive (is there a word?) - post #15 is give me a list of the issues.

The head of the company is also tired, overworked, underpaid and keeps being told he should resign etc etc - my skin is only so thick - happy to help people who want to be helped, not so keen on helping those out to stir the pot.

Tony_Hilliam said:

I'm trying to be undivisive (is there a word?) - post #15 is give me a list of the issues.

The head of the company is also tired, overworked, underpaid and keeps being told he should resign etc etc - my skin is only so thick - happy to help people who want to be helped, not so keen on helping those out to stir the pot.

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This is understandable, there is only so much one man can do.

jacksonbarno said:

...The community has gotten flattened by DRM and lack of content creation tools, you have to use a backwards and annoying way to edit builtin routes, you still can't even edit builtin content properly, alpha channels still don't work, the game is still unoptimized, backwards compatibility is shot unless you want to spend most of your free time updating content to "current standards," we can't use non-DLS content (some of the best out there) in multiplayer unless we hack into the game and change code around...

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There's your list, and you can also add poor rendering of LoDs, stuttering, and now the entire matter of "what happens if N3V goes away and we're stuck with this DRM'd content that won't work without them."

In terms of the shoddy attempt at getting DLC/Built in content, here would be the wrong way to go about solving the issue: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?122068-A-Call-for-Content

By DLC, I mean content like the Blue Comet, Coronation, et cetera. I know lots of people who are killing to reskin the FOM set, and would gladly work to release and resell their work with N3V if given the opportunity. In terms of compatibility with other versions, if you limit the DLC to a version that people aren't satisfied with, then they will be less likely to purchase it if they do not use it as their main sim. If you want an influx of cash, then creating content for multiple versions is the way to go. In terms of incentive, you keep saying yourself that the features alone are enough reason for people to upgrade, and furthermore that T:ANE is the highest selling version of all time now. What harm would come from making content available to more people (and therefore increasing the range from which you can draw income)? I know for a fact that the NKP Berk set (which is build 2.9) would have worked in lower builds if you hadn't tried to implement a DRM system. In that scenario, there were no sales involved, yet again you chose to limit your sales range.

In most situations, payware creators will nix the release of reskins on their content. Providing a structure for that with the release of DLC will not only provide incentive (there's that word again) for them to buy the DLC, but also will provide a way to generate additional income from a single product. It's a win-win for everybody, and furthermore, it allows you to market a broader range of products across multiple platforms, which almost certainly generates more sales, particularly if that content is then used in sessions and routes, which then accelerates the cycle.

Now, why not reach out to the community, as you had previously? Having users submit miscellaneous reskins and routes as payware is not the same thing as having a professional content creator or content creation group develop DLC. They may seem similar, but they have very different effects, and generate very different consumer views.

In terms of T:ANE releases and TS12 releases, that's not the point. If you will notice, a very, very large majority of content produced for this sim is created in TS12. Yes, it might work in T:ANE, but when content creators use TS12 to create new assets, even when they have T:ANE, it is pretty easy to see which they prefer. Most of the recent projects that I cited have been started within the past two or three months, and are not a case of continued development over a long period of time.

In terms of the CG move, it was widely disliked, but I again found myself voicing the concerns of more than a few who did not vocalize the point.