Trainz "Next" is announced...

I'm not sure many saw this one coming. Although my preference is the building aspects of Trainz being retired and on a fixed income I'm reluctant to subscribe to anything and make each purchase on its merits and can I afford it at the time.

Logic would suggest that if subscription as suggested would be equal or cheaper than outright purchase it would be financially more viable for N3V Games to sell the product because they would then have much of the monies from Next up front to invest and not be concerned about pure game performance and dwindling subscriptions to support future enhancements or products. It would be interesting to know what non-business users of Microsoft Office prefer, owning their own copy of subscribing to Office 365. Peter

Be careful not to dismiss this enterprise as being 'multi-player'.

As I understand it, this is an opportunity for a group/ team of like-minded enthusiasts to collaborate on the multiplicity of tasks necessary to create a route that in scope would be beyond the realistic expectations of any individual map creator.
Where the collective efforts lead towards the creation of a prototypical route of stunning authenticity, historical accuracy and operational integrity.

Imagine a project that engages a global team of historians, graphics artists, wordsmiths, web designers, 3D modelers, GIS and DEM Gurus, railway enthusiasts and employees/ engineers, Government tourism agencies, T:ANE Surveyor Artisans, engine spec. and signaling specialists, AI aficionados, catenary system creators, sound recording audiophiles, SpeedTree generators, etc., all collaborating on the construction of a popular prototypical tourist railway route somewhere on the planet.
With proper direction and the right online collaborative tools, amazing things could happen!

This proposition has serious legs. It could take the Trainz franchise to yet another step-change above and beyond the competition.

The best aspect of all of this is that participation in Trainz Next is optional and the benefits (in terms of the rapid development of a large number of high-quality routes/ sessions and assets/ scripts etc.) flow on to all Trainz users, whether they participate in Next or not.

PC_Ace said:

Imagine a project that engages a global team of historians, graphics artists, wordsmiths, web designers, 3D modelers, GIS and DEM Gurus, railway enthusiasts and employees/ engineers, Government tourism agencies, T:ANE Surveyor Artisans, engine spec. and signaling specialists, AI aficionados, catenary system creators, sound recording audiophiles, SpeedTree generators, etc., all collaborating on the construction of a popular prototypical tourist railway route somewhere on the planet.

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I'm imagining it and in my best judgement that's where it will stay, as imaginary.

The notion of a controlled and revertable route/session editor allowing many authors to simultaneously create new routes is very appealing. But the description of how it will work doesn't make it clear what modes of co-operation will and won't work. For example:

I've made fantasy routes that look quite good in terms of the scenery and detail but are probably "wrong" from the POV of those interested in emulating correct track layouts, signalling and the other details of real railways. I would like to make such a route available to others to amend track, signalling, railway company infrastucture and so forth to make the route more of a simulation of real railways rather than my often random inclusion of details.

I could see this "global edit via a layer" mode as a good way to allow multiple authors to simultaneously work on many different aspects of a route - perhaps even alternative versions of "fantasy" routes that contain layers supporting various different railways company scenes - a GWR version, an LNER version etcetera.

Such amendments would be global, not restricted to just one area or section of the route. I could imagine this working via, say, correction of signalling or GWR buildings within a specific layer. Will the multiplayer Surveyor facility cater to this sort of global editing?

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The trouble with subscription software is that you lose the lot if you can no longer afford the subscription. Subscription would have to be very low-cost to remain around the buy-once cost of Trainz now.

Another problem is failed updates due to glitches arising within the software build on the user's device. I currently have such a problem with Photoshop CC which their remote technical assistance cannot fix.

Many are (rightly) suspicious of the loss of control and any vestage of even a license ownership with software subscription selling. N3V risk alienating a lot of potential customers with this approach, which seems to benefit sellers much more than buyers.

Lataxe

Big Brother?

Does Trainz have a future as a standalone application?

It's 2017. You open Trainz and log on with your MyTrainz username.
Big Brother is watching you.

Utilizing the same familiar Surveyor tools as today, multiple users will be able to view and edit a single route simultaneously, with all changes being saved to the N3V servers and mirrored out to all other viewers.
Big Brother is watching you.

On the technical side: I have been in the IT project business for decades. And I know how virtual railway route projects work, with 15 years experience in this sector. It's all about team organization, clear interfaces, clear tasks, coordination. A central server-based repository may be helpful but is in no way essential to a successful route project. Those route building projects aware of the team challenges already have set up their own means to data exchange, some with a private SVN or Git, with no one else looking over the shoulder. And those project teams that underestimate the organizational issues will still fail, even with the lowest hurdles for centralized data management.

Along with the new online multiplayer editing feature for Trainz, another significant change for Trainz “Next” will be a new subscription model (for this specific version). There are many benefits to a subscription model over the traditional “pay upfront” system that has been the predominant method of sales for the past 35 years.
Big Brother is watching you.

Essential question: Will there be an offline mode?

Otherwise, I'm out.

I've been with Trainz for about 12yrs the longer I've been with it the more often a new version is added without the previous really being finished & working as it should.
I think Tane will be my last installment going by " The Next " announcment
If I cant buy a product and use it the way I always have in the past them I'm finished.
If I knew this is where Trainz was going I would still be using TS12 instead of supporting Tane
There is no way I will subscribe to a Trainz game

"Essential question: Will there be an offline mode?

Otherwise, I'm out."

and

"If I cant buy a product and use it the way I always have in the past them I'm finished."

Unfortunately, my sentiments entirely.

Trainz NEXT might be a fitting name for the final release.

Some CC's will still group together for team builds. Me? NEXT! I build for my personal mental health. Why? Don't ask.

Some will go for subscriptions. Me? NEXT! I do not have the funds to bleed on a repeated basis.
There is mention that routes could may be acquired out right, THAT I like.

I have enjoyed the Trainz franchise so far, even TANE. I may have only 2 of them, but they are fun for me, warts and all.

I would like to give it a fair chance, but, my instincts tell me to be really cautious here.



I am not trying to be mean or anything, just bluntly honest.

Hi all,

To answer a few of the above questions and comments:

no more occasional users (who could justify a subscription for the occasional dabble?)

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This obviously depends on the pricing of a subscription. Given that you can subscribe and unsubscribe at will, it could be cheaper to use the subscription model. In fact, since we don’t actually know the pricing, it might be that subscription is cheaper than the equivalent product in absolute terms. (It depends on how often a new product or products that you are interested in are released that are free with your subscription.) Obviously if you never buy a new product, then a subscription will always be more expensive over a long enough period- so I guess what I’m saying is that once the subscription becomes available as an option, you should each consider your own circumstances to see whether it suits you. If not, other options are available.

Logic would suggest that if subscription as suggested would be equal or cheaper than outright purchase it would be financially more viable for N3V Games to sell the product because they would then have much of the monies .. up front.

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This is not entirely true. In absolute money terms, sure. But as a business, we also have to worry about cashflow. In many ways, it’s better to have a regular income rather than a larger one-off lump sum. When you think about it, most of our costs also occur on a regular basis. Consider also whether buying individual music albums is better or worse value than all-you-can-eat music subscription services. For many consumers, the monthly subscription is much better value.

we were explicitly told that there would be no further versions created and all advancements would be applied to T:ANE? I see this is a false advertisement……

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I’m sorry, but I have no idea what you’re referring to. I don’t believe that we’ve ever suggested that T:ANE would be the final version of Trainz released. In fact, we’ve frequently discussed it being the start of a new era for the Trainz family.

Big Brother is watching you.

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I’m curious to know where you’re going with this. I’m not at all a fan of state-sponsored surveillance, but I don’t really understand how it relates to your use of a multi-user version of Surveyor. You might as well say "Log into the forums. Big Brother is watching you."

Essential question: Will there be an offline mode?

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Quoting the news update, "The multiplayer surveyor aspect will be based upon a monthly subscription model. Other versions of Trainz will be available for purchase".

Be careful not to dismiss this enterprise as being 'multi-player'.
As I understand it, this is an opportunity for a group/ team of like-minded enthusiasts to collaborate on the multiplicity of tasks necessary to create a route that in scope would be beyond the realistic expectations of any individual map creator.

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Exactly this. There’s a huge amount of potential in an undertaking like this. For sure, it’s not for everybody. But our user-base has always been known for having a creative side, and we think this will appeal to the many world-builders in our community.


kind regards,

chris

You have to read the whole announcement and many questions are answered like the following.

Q. Will I be able to purchase rather than subscribe?
A. The multiplayer surveyor aspect will be based upon a monthly subscription model. Other versions of Trainz will be available for purchase, and other subscription options may be available to provide extra value to subscribers.

So looks like a bunch of subscription options and the normal standalone purchase version.

Removed by poster.


I'll wait until product is available and then see if it's worth buying.

Not putting any money down on proposals or promises.

On subscriptions: I have a particular programmer's editor and toolbox that I like so much that I run a yearly subscription. This entitles me to free upgrades, some support, which I never use, and, on average, at least one major update a year plus bug fixes. After looking at various options I decided that gave me the best value for money. If I drop the subscription I can still use the product but no free upgrades.

If I decide to buy a subscription to the "NEXT" Trainz will that entitle me to free upgrades should a new version appear? I remain undecided whether to "buy in" to the "networked world builder" as I don't, as a rule, make routes. But I may join a group to produce assets required by a group project. While I've had some bad experiences with that in the past, I'm not prepared to rule it out completely.

I guess, in time, these issues will be worked out and fully explained

Just don't see this as taking Trainz anywhere...

110% opposed to any sort of subscription gaming outside the current DLS arrangement.

As regards "co-operative" route building, well to repeat what I posted on the announcement page I had two experiences working with commercial groups for MSTS. Neither was particularly satisfactory as you are either waiting for someone to produce the required content, or you end up as team leader to a bunch of prima-donnas. Most route builders work alone and Trainz already has an excellent "co-operative" facility via assets on the DLS, which we can select and use as necessary.

I have also, on a few occasions, acceded to others taking my routes and enhancing or embellishing them with a further upload to the DLS of the finished item. However that is a strictly controlled circumstance and does not not let every Tom, dick or Bort85 carte blanche to hack my work about at will.

If this is truly the "Future Of Trainz" then it looks like my interest dies with TS12. This looks to succeed in killing off N3V where Fury (only just) failed and remember even the programme originators - Greg Lane and John Banks - ditched the rather wacky idea of collectibles in favour of a conventional release.

Big no thank you from me, then.

WindWalkr said:

I’m curious to know where you’re going with this. I’m not at all a fan of state-sponsored surveillance, but I don’t really understand how it relates to your use of a multi-user version of Surveyor. You might as well say "Log into the forums. Big Brother is watching you."

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Because every server-based system is subject to data mining. That is the basic nature of such systems. There are no real physical barriers to prevent this. Yes, you can add some privacy statement and the user can trust it or not. But the potential risk that user data will be be exploited for subject-related or unrelated purposes is always there. And it doesn't matter whether "Big Brother" is a state authority or a commercial company. Some of the biggest players in the Internet industry have based their business models on exploiting user data.

Any announcement that states "Hurrah, we are going into the cloud" and claims that there will be only benefits makes me very cautious and suspicious. In this case I cannot detect any advantage in a "multi-player" Surveyor. Route projects simply don't work that way. And once over-enthusiastic newbies will have found that out, the entire idea will fall dormant - apart from the server still collecting user data. So - why the whole fuzz if not for "learning more" about your clients?

Vern said:

As regards "co-operative" route building, well to repeat what I posted on the announcement page I had two experiences working with commercial groups for MSTS. Neither was particularly satisfactory as you are either waiting for someone to produce the required content, or you end up as team leader to a bunch of prima-donnas. Most route builders work alone and Trainz already has an excellent "co-operative" facility via assets on the DLS, which we can select and use as necessary.

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Vern, I agree for Trainz but route building for Zusi 3 has been always a team project. Otherwise, no results would have been achieved. But this only works because of strict and structured management by humans. A central data repository (as used by the Zusi group) is helpful, but, in essence, minor detail.

geophil said:

Vern, I agree for Trainz but route building for Zusi 3 has been always a team project. Otherwise, no results would have been achieved. But this only works because of strict and structured management by humans. A central data repository (as used by the Zusi group) is helpful, but, in essence, minor detail.

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You are quite correct Roland, not saying there isn't a place for it but certainly my experience in all the "big three" sims, is that the best freeware has been crafted by people largely working on their own.

The other side of the coin, of course, is that you might not get anyone actually wanting to pitch in. That was my experience doing my Blackpool Tramway route for Railworks (as it was known then). Great I thought, really iconic route bound to be loads of interest. However a post on UKTS to recruit 3D modellers produced zero response, so other than MikeTrams who had already made a couple of the tramcars it ran essentially as a solo project. Whether it's Trainz, MSTS, RW-TS or even Zusi there are relatively few users with the knowledge and skill (sorry if that sounds immodest) to produce a route to release standard. N3V need to be cultivating that userbase, mainly by improving Surveyor, patching up TS12 prior to the unsupported date and of course getting TANE into a useable state. Not going swimming off the deep end with a concept that's even barmier than when they went down the Trainz Classics route (before coming to their senses with TS2009).

Subscription service? Not interested.
Online editing / screwing up of routes? Not interested, If this is the future of Trainz I'm out of here, it's the most stupid idea I've ever heard and totally unworkable on my connection anyway.
Unless there is a Normal version of pay for once Trainz Next then you will no longer be getting my custom. Never used Multiplayer as not remotely interested in it.
Might have been an idea to actually ask route builders and content creators thoughts first before assuming we are all going to roll over and accept this.
There are so many better improvements that could have been considered rather than a rip off get rich quick subscription model.

clam1952 said:

a rip off get rich quick subscription model.

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While I haven't seen a reason to get excited about Next yet, I don't think this is a fair description when a pricing structure hasn't been announced.

Before you all switch to chicken little mode you might want to read the FAQ, specifically:

Q. Will I be able to purchase rather than subscribe?
A. The multiplayer surveyor aspect will be based upon a monthly subscription model. Other versions of Trainz will be available for purchase, and other subscription options may be available to provide extra value to subscribers.

Paul

Not putting any money down on proposals or promises.

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That’s fine by us. We haven’t even announced detailed features or prices yet, and it will be quite a while before we do. The news updates are so that you’re aware of our plans, nothing more.

If I decide to buy a subscription to the "NEXT" Trainz will that entitle me to free upgrades should a new version appear?

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The subscription comes with all the software you need to use Trainz "NEXT", including regular updates etc. There is nothing to "buy", either the first time around or years later. It’s just a subscription.

Tony’s already mentioned other non-subscription products. I can’t say how these will fit relative to Trainz "NEXT"- this is something that we’ll need to talk about in the future. It’s too early to get into this kind of detail now; we just don’t know.

I remain undecided whether to "buy in" to the "networked world builder" as I don't, as a rule, make routes. But I may join a group to produce assets required by a group project. While I've had some bad experiences with that in the past, I'm not prepared to rule it out completely.

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And the beautiful thing about a subscription service is that it’s cheap to try out, so you can always wait until you’re ready, then try it, and still have the option to change your mind again as many times as you like, or as fits your needs.

As regards "co-operative" route building, well to repeat what I posted on the announcement page I had two experiences working with commercial groups for MSTS. Neither was particularly satisfactory as you are either waiting for someone to produce the required content, or you end up as team leader to a bunch of prima-donnas.

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This isn’t really true. Yes, there may be some people who fit that description. There are also many people who are already forming groups to collaborate on routes, even though the tools don’t actually facilitate this- this has been going on for years. And of course, there are a lot of people who don’t have the time or experience to create a large-scale project by themselves, but who would love to contribute to something a bit more light-hearted. Not everybody needs to be commercial or "pro" in order to feel that they’re doing something worthwhile.

Most route builders work alone and Trainz already has an excellent "co-operative" facility via assets on the DLS, which we can select and use as necessary.

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You’re right, the DLS allows 3D modellers and a route builder to work together- but it does nothing to allow route builders to work with each other, which is the problem that we’re addressing here.

I have also, on a few occasions, acceded to others taking my routes and enhancing or embellishing them with a further upload to the DLS of the finished item. However that is a strictly controlled circumstance and does not not let every Tom, dick or Bort85 carte blanche to hack my work about at will.

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I’m not sure where you got the feeling that this would allow people to edit your route without your permission. That’s certainly not the case, and we’ll have some fairly powerful tools in place to control who can edit what.

Because every server-based system is subject to data mining. That is the basic nature of such systems. There are no real physical barriers to prevent this. Yes, you can add some privacy statement and the user can trust it or not. But the potential risk that user data will be be exploited for subject-related or unrelated purposes is always there.

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True, but I just don’t understand what you think we would get out of it. Does anybody really care whether you painted with yellow grass or green grass? Maybe I’m just blind to how marketing works, but I don’t see how we could even monetise that kind of thing if we wanted to (and no, we don’t want to.)


kind regards,

chris