Collector post for off-topic posts to: Can you guess the next key feature for Trainz?

It is true that TANE is in its infancy (maybe a toddler). It IS still young and will fudge the Huggies. We just need to put in the effort to help the parents (N3V) raise it and hope it grows up into a mature enough teenager and eventually a full fledged adult.

As far as N3V looking to make the NEXT trainz, think of it as thus, How many of you have a sibling that is no more than 1 or 2 years apart from yourselves. I bet the older sibling was likely NOT potty trained when the younger sibling drew the first breath of life.

Had to say this as the general feel of the forum lately has become dark and sharp tongued.
 
You can find endless arguments on this point (why start development on a new version when the old one is still not fixed) in many other threads.


  • It comes down to practicality.

When is a program fixed? Some will answer "that will happen when all the bugs have been removed". That is an impossibility. Mathematically, it is possible to prove that a given piece of program code is "bug free" provided that code segment is no longer than a few hundred instructions.


  • It comes down to commercial reality.

Should any business that produces a product stand still until that product is "perfect" (by whose assessment?) before starting development on its successor? They don't do that in the car or aircraft industry. While they were making design changes ("perfecting") and creating new variants of the Boeing 747, Boeing was working on designing the 757 - 787.

Likewise Microsoft did not wait until XP was perfected before starting work on Vista. I will bet that Windows 7 (and possibly even 8) was also in the development pipeline before Vista came out. The same is true of any software development company. Why should N3V be any different?

I suspect the real question is "does this mean that all development work and fixes for T:ANE will cease to devote all development time to the new future version?" That has been answered in other posts and threads - T:ANE support will continue throughout this year and the next. I am uncertain but was 2018 listed as the end date for support?

Unfortunately we are talking about a company that really hasn't come close to "finishing" any product they have created... I am willing to give that Trs2004/2006 were close enough and built well enough to be finished, but everything since has died in the process of being patched. Each new addition introduces new features and new problems often not addressing previous issues ported over from the last version. What's more, patches stop being made soon after the release of the "new" game and support for content follows soon after. If they provided stability and reasonable support for the product, I would be more inclined to say they have every right and ability to build new products while still patching, but time and time again that has been proven false. They need to commit more to providing a good product before they move on to selling us the next latest and greatest thing. I'm pissed that there are issues that make TANE unpleasant to play and create for, yet here we are talking about cutting TS2012 support while acting like TANE is a strong enough product to stand on its own in your storefront (Spoilers: it isn't). What's more, I can already feel the sales pitch starting for the new version and thus the cycle starts all over again. Time and time again the community has being flexible enough to deal with this bs and make the leap, but the leap has gotten farther and farther each time and people are starting to get fed up. You guys need to finish what you started and let one of your products reach a level of completion that gives the user the VALUE THEY PAYED FOR! This may come as a shock, but most people don't want to spend 60+ dollars on a product that will not work well right away, let alone in year or two be in a similar state and nearing an end of its support life. Fool me once, twice,.... Nine times, and I am done at this point.... I really can't continue hoping things will get better when each time I buy a "new" product I feel like I am just inheriting the mess from the last one with new problems added for extra "fun"
 
NIARTcar, I actually agree with much of what you say and accept that there is much frustration and some anger in the way the Trainz "product cycle" seems to operate. I have no experience of other game developers so I cannot draw any comparisons in that field. Certainly, MS did not stop producing updates and patches for XP as soon as Vista came out (did XP updates/patches cease sometime around 2013??) but to be fair it is a bit difficult to compare MS with N3V.

My memory no longer reliably stretches back to the "halcyon days" of Trainz 2004/2006 but I do seem to recall that both left the "cycle" with some considerable problems still unresolved - particularly in the transition from 2004 to 2006. Likewise with 2006/2009/2010. The claims of "unfinished business" varied enormously from one user to another but, strangely, there are some forum posters who still insist that Trainz 2004 or Trainz 2006 was the "best ever" version.

I don't know what you mean by a "level of completion" and I suspect that if you ran a poll there would be as many different "completion levels" as there were posters.

I don't know what the ideal solution is. I think that it is naive and simplistic to simply say "get Trainz <insert product version here> fixed before you release a new version" as that would result in the company going out the door. Large software developers such as MS and Adobe have the advantage of size, resources and market clout to able to maintain a significant team of programmers working on "legacy code" but not small niche developers and especially not in the area of computer gaming. Certainly, I have heard of games where a new version is released every year with no further updates (if any did ever eventuate) released for the recently superseded version.

PS: Despite my signature line and many claims that I am an N3V stooge, I can assure you that I am not. I am, however, very concerned to see that N3V is able to continue producing product until the end of my life, at least.
 
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I don't know what you mean by a "level of completion" and I suspect that if you ran a poll there would be as many different "completion levels" as there were posters.

I don't know what the ideal solution is. I think that it is naive and simplistic to simply say "get Trainz <insert product version here> fixed before you release a new version" as that would result in the company going out the door. Large software developers such as MS and Adobe have the advantage of size, resources and market clout to able to maintain a significant team of programmers working on "legacy code" but not small niche developers and especially not in the area of computer gaming. Certainly, I have heard of games where a new version is released every year with no further updates (if any did ever eventuate) released for the recently superseded version.

PS: Despite my signature line and many claims that I am an N3V stooge, I can assure you that I am not. I am, however, very concerned to see that N3V is able to continue producing product until the end of my life, at least.
It's vague, because I don't like to be the unreasonable one with stone standards. I know there will be bugs but what we see more often then not here is over the top given the rate of turnover they have for their product line. For me a measure of "completion" might be judged on whether a new user could enter into the game and feel they got their money's worth, ie the game functions as described and advertised and puts forth an experience that very much represents the money put into it. Right now it seems they are banking off of older hands, that have experience in the product, sticking around and continuing to purchase and deal with their lack of polish on the product. Unfortunately, they are now losing repeat customers and sure as hell are not gaining any new ones from the first time buyers. The fact that we are seeing such fundamental problems going unaddressed and yet we are on the verge of TYANE (Trainz Yet Another New Era) being published almost unapologetically, is extremely telling to the lack of concern about the product.

I think you are right there are different definitions of finished; but surely under most, if not all definitions by end users this is unfinished. Honestly, there needs to be a standard here to be met; I don't know what it is, but I know I am definitely not seeing it.
 
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As one who has been on the Trainz from the very start it would be nice to have your optimizem bad sadly a history that you have may have no knowledge of or part in would leave me to believe other wise even thought, I would like to, not to.

I must say that N3V did deliver on what they did promise in all the TANE hipe, there is lots of buzz about what they were planning to deliver, which they have done. I can not find anywhere did they say the functions were in fact going to work once delivered.

It is true that TANE is in its infancy (maybe a toddler). It IS still young and will fudge the Huggies. We just need to put in the effort to help the parents (N3V) raise it and hope it grows up into a mature enough teenager and eventually a full fledged adult.

As far as N3V looking to make the NEXT trainz, think of it as thus, How many of you have a sibling that is no more than 1 or 2 years apart from yourselves. I bet the older sibling was likely NOT potty trained when the younger sibling drew the first breath of life.

Had to say this as the general feel of the forum lately has become dark and sharp tongued.
 
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I can not find anywhere did they say the functions were in fact going to work once delivered.

I am not sure if you are attempting to defend N3V or are being satirical (nice one if that is the case) but you may have just rattled another hornets nest there.

:hehe:Time to order more popcorn for the party!
 
I am not sure if you are attempting to defend N3V or are being satirical (nice one if that is the case) but you may have just rattled another hornets nest there.

:hehe:Time to order more popcorn for the party!
Pware Indeed. Perhaps we should have been been more specific? After all, isn't that the way the cartoon genie trope works? Your wish is granted but at a price.
 
I am thinking of some of the recent EMU (ED4M, ED4MK, ED6, ED9) and Russian? Bulgarian? locomotives and similar EMU-DMU that you have to go through a 10 - 18 step preparation to get moving, and I tire of looking at Russian? Bulgarian?

Sadly this comes down to lack of N3V "QA" regarding what they picked to go in the retail version of TS12. "Hey Tony, I just found these great Russian locos", (and they are great once you get them running), should have been tempered with, "Okay but do we expect 95% of our customers using an English language product to read Cyrillic?" I doubt more than 1% of the Trainz userbase can speak Russian or read Cyrillic so a pre-requisite should have been clear English instructions, easy to call up once you get in the cab. Indeed, at this stage of software development, not unrealistic to expect a scripted routine or tutorial to trigger automatically to assist in starting the loco.

But no, pluck the content from wherever they found it, a cursory glance and into the game it goes. Never mind, in 7 months time there will be full deniability when TS12 officially ceases to exist...
 
Vern,

these EMUs has never been implemented in TS12. Just because the content for TS12 picked in 2011, and the technology of scripting wasn't so widespread as in current time. Coplicated VL10-1628 and 2TE10M wasn't used in TS12, only arcade ChS8 and ChS4 (original and restyled).


scripted routine or tutorial to trigger automatically to assist in starting the loco
I've made something like that for 2TE121 :) . Though, russian map hadn't included in TANE because of big dependency size and not-default speedtrees.
 
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We seem to look at the past too with rosy glasses on and all remember how all the smells were wonderful and flowery too. How many people forget that TRS2004 took 4 service packs to become a product worth using. SP0 release had cars that moved up hills like they rode on an escalator as well as floated. SP1 introduced the interactive industries and the ability to save driver commands, which was so badly missed on the promised initial release. This broke a ton of things, making existing routes borked for quite sometime, as well as introducing wicked-awful performance problems that I and many do dearly remember. Then SP2 came along to fix the performance issue, but broke something else, causing random crashes to the desktop, which was briefly followed by SP3 to fix that. Then finally SP4 came out which put everything together just in time for TRS2006 to arrive.

Now TRS2006 was a bag-o-mushy brown stuff too. SP0 crashed randomly if you looked the wrong way. Stuff that worked before was now broken, again. This time though we were warned that error checking was introduced. The then new Content Manager would crash if you thought about it and got up from your chair to take a leak. There were a bunch of odd things too in TRS2006 which I can't remember. Then there was the lovely SP1 which required a complete uninstall, before installing SP1 without running anything at all. The only good thing I can remember was the database rebuild - delete the assets.tdx and ,bku and let her rip.

TRS2009 was no picnic either, though a bit better. At least CM finally worked decently, though there were other "issues" to contend with like the random crashes and more content repairs to go along with it along with lengthy, more than an overnight database repairs because there was no quick delete and rebuild. The product was just slow no matter how many fixes applied, and it took at least 3 Service Packs to make this product somewhat better..

TRS2010 was better with the compatibility mode and better graphics. This came with munged attachment points where track and roads attached to MO-Crossing and other fixed-track objects went zinging off into space sometime unprovoked, but usually caused by merging. Yes, that famous merging issue which reared its head later on in TS12. TS2010 took 3 Service Packs to finally make it worthy; with a fourth which introduced multiplayer. By then TS12 was on its way.

TS12 was okay in the beginning, though it had the merging issue which would crash a route. There were also still lots of random crashing due to many, many content problems. We seem to forget the pleading and requests to do something about the error checking of content before downloading off the DLS. This actually started in TS2009/2010 timeframe, but really too hold in TS12. There was nearly a riot over this, as many that kvetch today forget. This involved the DLS coming offline for a bit of time as things were readjusted and then the conspiracy theories started that the company was kaput and/or old stuff was being thrown away. Once the content issues was resolved SP0 wasn't bad after those few patches. SP1 introduced a stronger DRM and asset validation along with the performance issues, which never quite got resolved even after 4 hot fixes following the SP1. By this time, the old Jet Engine was floundering under the ever increasing demands of the content creators.

I might of forgotten some things, but this is how I remember the ride from TRS2004 onwards. To me it'll be the same ride we've had so far; some good, some bad, a little car sickness....
 
I never could understand what problems TRS2006 SP1 posed ... TRS2006 Trainz Railwayz Full Version SP1 Build 3337 by Merscom trainz-build 2.6 ... it works flawlessly for me
 
I think that maybe it was they way TANE was overhyped, with the KS campaign and all people's expectations were pushed way too high. Too many promises and deadlines not kept, the waiting as deadlines kept being pushed back, the periods of silence from the developers. I think the public announcement of the "next version", when TANE had just been declared "officially " released, even before SP1 was out has put a lot of people on edge as well and rightfully so. Some probably wonder if it will be worth the effort of moving over at all, what support will TANE actually get and will it be fully dedicated support or will it just be lip service to keep everyone quiet while major issues are just slated for the 'next" version.
 
I think that maybe it was they way TANE was overhyped, with the KS campaign and all people's expectations were pushed way too high. Too many promises and deadlines not kept, the waiting as deadlines kept being pushed back, the periods of silence from the developers. I think the public announcement of the "next version", when TANE had just been declared "officially " released, even before SP1 was out has put a lot of people on edge as well and rightfully so. Some probably wonder if it will be worth the effort of moving over at all, what support will TANE actually get and will it be fully dedicated support or will it just be lip service to keep everyone quiet while major issues are just slated for the 'next" version.

The broken promises were a combination of sadly typical sales and marketing getting ahead of R&D and the push back from the Pioneer Council as we were testing stuff before the CE release. NO, NO, NO! DO NOT RELEASE THIS! we said more than once. It's garbage... However, word from above from management and sales said we have to release perhaps due to commitments from their publishing partner. Sadly, the damage was done.

Why no word from the developers? Simply put - they were busy beavers scrambling to fix the broken stuff as they were now under an awfully tight schedule to get the product out the door no matter what. Tony was also traveling then, probably to shore up contracts with outside vendors, and others. I'm only supposing what a CEO does, having worked for more than one of them in the many years.

The public announcement of a new version... There's no new product until it's released - keep that in mind, and they are still going to support T:ANE just as TS12 is still supported now. There are going to be service packs and hot fixes - with one coming out soon for beta, according to Tony. (Yet more testing). To add to this, we were given notice up in the Trainz Dev that they're working on stuff they'll want us to test as well. So we may see the fixes ahead of the rest of the beta testing public. It ought to be interesting...

Why they announced the new version, I don't know. Most companies are not that enthusiastic about new products and let them come out when they come out. Then again we asked for more transparency so we're seeing something of this, I think. It's a dual edged sword. You bare all and get reamed for saying too much, or get reamed for not saying anything at all. The good news is they're looking forward to new products rather than packing things up and shutting things down like one place I worked at where they got rid of sales and R&D. Once they did that, the company closed 3 years later.

So don't worry, don't hold off, and continue your course. As they say, pay no attention and carry on.

John
 
We seem to look at the past too with rosy glasses on and all remember how all the smells were wonderful and flowery too.....

The broken promises were a combination of sadly typical sales and marketing getting ahead of R&D and the push back from the Pioneer Council as we were testing stuff before the CE release....

John, I think those two posts summed up the entire situation very nicely. Add to that the tendency of posters to believe what they wanted to believe (not helped by some very emotional posts in these forums), and you have the "wild ride" that we have experienced here during the last 9 months (almost like a gestation). Some of that "crisis mode" continues with the "discussions" over continued releases of fixes and the future of Trainz.

I guess that it is all part of human nature and that these issues, no matter how well handled, will continue to populate these forums with "interesting posts".
 
Not for me either...

If they can't manage to get a link to work the first time, what chance have they got in getting a game to work?

John what you said was spot on, But what irritates me the most is the lack of concern to fix the fundamentals that are needed to make this game work. At least TS2010 was a descent runner. and TS2012 was not too bad either. as I recall there was a slight problem with merging but there was a work around for that problem.
But TANE finally was the last straw, I will not be beta testing again, TS09,10,12, were good times, but TANE totally sucked.
Weather I will bother to buy the next offering, I seriously doubt, and as for SP1, they will not be seeing a single penny of my money. Why the hell should I be paying for something that should have been in the game to beguine with.
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I am thinking of some of the recent EMU (ED4M, ED4MK, ED6, ED9) and Russian? Bulgarian? locomotives and similar EMU-DMU that you have to go through a 10 - 18 step preparation to get moving, and I tire of looking at Russian? Bulgarian?
First people want full realism to operate a locomotive. Then, when they get it, they cry that it's too hard, too long and too difficult. So it's not in English, many places in the world where they operate locomotives don't speak English. When you jump in to someone else's locomotive, it's up to you to know how to operate it.
 
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