amigacooke
Well-known member
I'd suggest you'd need a test case before making a statement like that.
New UK laws - consumer rights for gamers
- Thread starter mezzoprezzo
- Start date
I'd suggest you'd need a test case before making a statement like that.
I'm fairly certain I read somewhere that one of the reasons why you no longer get game demos (apart from no-one buys PC mags with cover discs) that modern software is so complex, you effectively need to include the whole game. Would take one of the tech anarchists about 30 seconds to write an algorithm that overcame any wrapper or copy protection and it's on the torrent sites.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Hi amigacooke and everybody
amigacooke, I am on holiday at the moment, so do not have access to the usual world of information, but i thought that an industry ombudsman with full office had been appointed to look at each individual case and make judgement without the need of court procedure.
Is it also not the case that where companies are registered outside of the UK the Ombudsman will also have the power to refer the case to the responsible authorities in the country of registration where his office feels their is justice in a persons claim. The ombudsman would also then represent the claim in that country at no cost to the claimant.
As i stated i am on holiday in a very remote spot where the wifi is non-existent and the mobile signal very intermittent so I cannot check all the above out. However I thought that is what I read before I came away.
Anyway, weather is great and the food,wine and cider even better.
Bill
amigacooke, I am on holiday at the moment, so do not have access to the usual world of information, but i thought that an industry ombudsman with full office had been appointed to look at each individual case and make judgement without the need of court procedure.
Is it also not the case that where companies are registered outside of the UK the Ombudsman will also have the power to refer the case to the responsible authorities in the country of registration where his office feels their is justice in a persons claim. The ombudsman would also then represent the claim in that country at no cost to the claimant.
As i stated i am on holiday in a very remote spot where the wifi is non-existent and the mobile signal very intermittent so I cannot check all the above out. However I thought that is what I read before I came away.
Anyway, weather is great and the food,wine and cider even better.
Bill
Last edited:
amigacooke
Well-known member
Is it so remote they don't even sell Man U shirtsAs i stated i am on holiday in a very remote spot where the wifi is non-existent and the mobile signal very intermittent so I cannot check all the above out. However I thought that is what I read before I came away.
Anyway, weather is great and the food,wine and cider even better.
Bill
Link to the Consumer Ombudsman. Doesn't seem to have judicial powers.
Last edited:
Very true however that happens pretty much with released games anyway.
I expect by now the larger game companies have already got their legal bods looking for any loopholes they can exploit. I doubt it will make much difference.
Last edited:
Some of the comments in the Guardian's article are telling:
As for the software not working on his rig, does the user bring his computer in to a recognized lab to have it tested to validate the claim?
Looks like people not reading is not just a T:ANE phenomenon.
As for the software not working on his rig, does the user bring his computer in to a recognized lab to have it tested to validate the claim?
So it wasn't up to the user's standards and he wants a refund. Even if that was a legitimate reason, who decides if it is true?
Hi everybody
Here is an edited breakdown of the new consumer rights legislation taken from BBC news page.This briefly explains the new ADR procedure for cost free claims.
The new act was a large document on the BBC site, so apologies for the editing and format.
Document starts here:-
When am I entitled to a refund?
If the goods are faulty, you are entitled to ask for them to be repaired - or to get a full refund. The Act says you can now get that refund up to 30 days from purchase. The money must be returned to you within 14 days.
What if I bought the product more than a month ago?
Even if you bought the product more than 30 days ago, you are still entitled to a repair or a replacement. The retailer has one chance to make the repair. If you are still unhappy, you have a right to a refund. This right extends to 6 months after the purchase.
If you bought a pair of walking boots five months ago, for example, and found they were leaking, you can ask for them to be repaired or replaced. If they are still leaking, you can ask for a full refund.
Am I covered for buying goods online?
In most cases, buying goods on line is covered by the Distance Selling Regulations, which provide further protections over and above the Consumer Rights Act. But for the first time, digital goods like downloads, films, games, music and ebooks are covered by the legislation.
However, if the downloads will not play on your computer or mobile device, you will be entitled to a replacement, but not a refund. This is because of the difficulty of proving that a download does not work. However, the retailer may, in some circumstances, offer a partial refund. They may also stipulate that you need to have certain software to play the film or music.
What if a download damages my computer?
If you download something which carries a virus etc, and you need to get your computer repaired as a result, you are entitled to compensation.
What do I do if a retailer refuses to give my money back?
You can take them to a small claims court, but that is an expensive process. The new Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) providers have been set up, which can handle additional products like energy contracts. These services are free to consumers, but are paid for by the retailers.
BBC document endsBill
Here is an edited breakdown of the new consumer rights legislation taken from BBC news page.This briefly explains the new ADR procedure for cost free claims.
The new act was a large document on the BBC site, so apologies for the editing and format.
Document starts here:-
When am I entitled to a refund?
If the goods are faulty, you are entitled to ask for them to be repaired - or to get a full refund. The Act says you can now get that refund up to 30 days from purchase. The money must be returned to you within 14 days.
What if I bought the product more than a month ago?
Even if you bought the product more than 30 days ago, you are still entitled to a repair or a replacement. The retailer has one chance to make the repair. If you are still unhappy, you have a right to a refund. This right extends to 6 months after the purchase.
If you bought a pair of walking boots five months ago, for example, and found they were leaking, you can ask for them to be repaired or replaced. If they are still leaking, you can ask for a full refund.
Am I covered for buying goods online?
In most cases, buying goods on line is covered by the Distance Selling Regulations, which provide further protections over and above the Consumer Rights Act. But for the first time, digital goods like downloads, films, games, music and ebooks are covered by the legislation.
However, if the downloads will not play on your computer or mobile device, you will be entitled to a replacement, but not a refund. This is because of the difficulty of proving that a download does not work. However, the retailer may, in some circumstances, offer a partial refund. They may also stipulate that you need to have certain software to play the film or music.
What if a download damages my computer?
If you download something which carries a virus etc, and you need to get your computer repaired as a result, you are entitled to compensation.
What do I do if a retailer refuses to give my money back?
You can take them to a small claims court, but that is an expensive process. The new Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) providers have been set up, which can handle additional products like energy contracts. These services are free to consumers, but are paid for by the retailers.
BBC document endsBill
Last edited:
amigacooke
Well-known member
Some questions:
Is the Act retrospective?
Do you don't think there is a plausible case in trying to decide in court whether TANE will ever match or does match the target graphics?
If I get a judgement under the Act living in the UK, how could I enforce it in Australia?
Do you think it will be worth the time and money to try pursue action against N3V?
Simple question: what is your problem?
Most of your posts in this thread - the ones that aren't off topic anyway - sound like you're specifically trying to pick a fight with me.
From where are you even pulling in these off-tangent arguments about test cases or judgement in the UK?
Am I looking for a refund or redress? Am I looking to instigate some sort of legal action against N3V? No. All of your points are invalid.
My original statement, which I still stand by:
Is this not true? Can you tell anyone with a straight face that N3V released T:ANE, hand over heart, honestly believing that it was free major issues?
Most of your posts in this thread - the ones that aren't off topic anyway - sound like you're specifically trying to pick a fight with me.
From where are you even pulling in these off-tangent arguments about test cases or judgement in the UK?
Am I looking for a refund or redress? Am I looking to instigate some sort of legal action against N3V? No. All of your points are invalid.
My original statement, which I still stand by:
Is this not true? Can you tell anyone with a straight face that N3V released T:ANE, hand over heart, honestly believing that it was free major issues?
If you bought the game through a UK retail store, you would simply take it back to them, if you bought it through N3V's online retail store, then you are stuffed at a guess and cant do anything. I guess buying local as to buying overseas will begin to have its advantages - additionally for the Govt who can get the tax on it.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Do bugs count as being faulty? If they do then I can't see any piece of software not contravening this law. So it seems to me that you would have to establish that the software didn't function in the way it should and that this meant that you couldn't use the software for the purpose described.
What I'm trying to establish in a clumsy way, is that there is plenty of wriggle room for legal argument about what does and doesn't meet a given criteria. So if you are inferring that the target graphics have not been achieved, then Harold's post about TANE being better than the target graphics could be cited in evidence against that view.
The point isn't really about who is wrong and who is right, it's that generally legislation has to be tested in court to see if the law actually has the affect that the drafters intended.
amigacooke
Well-known member
Indeed, but I'd still have to establish that it contrived this or other UK consumer law, though in practice the retail outlet may just give a refund as it's much less trouble to do so.
The entire area of who is responsible if a purchased/licensed item of software does not work "satisfactorily" on a particular users system, or does not meet their "interpretation" of published advertising, is a legal minefield. I would be surprised if lawmakers can succeed in creating any all encompassing legislation that would be able to keep up with the constantly changing technology and withstand a court challenge.
beckster181
New member
But with the wording of this article and the one about the ACCC in Australia taking Steam to court over similar restrictive refund policies etc it would appear that as TANE as an example was advertised as a fully finished product for public release on a certain date from early on till late into the program release date the pre-purchasers of the game that did so to get their copy early (2 Weeks was the original promise). also it was said to be the same game as would be released on the official launch date and would be a finished product that didnt need hot fixes etc and was fit for use as soon as installed we all know how much these targets etc changed and why and how much the original promise fell short. As i stated at the time it could leave the team open to legal action and was laughed at and ignored by certain people, but these articles go to show that in fact i was correct and that if someone did make a complaint to the ACCC here in OZ then it could in fact lead to a large case.
beckster181
New member
The legal side is a minefield yes ! However, when you read what is the minimum system requirements and what are the recommended ones, and your own system is way above those and it still isnt up the promised speed quality etc then there is no real argument to make in defense of the claim. and it dont cost thousands to take anyone to court over an amount under $10,000 in Australia it is called a small claim and goes to small claims court where lawyers are not allowed and you present your facts to the magistrate and he decides after the defendant states why your claim is faulty who is right and makes his judgement and either allows or disallows the claim.
If the other party dont attend then judgement will default to you if they try to switch it into a more formal court you can ask for that action to be denied. Any legal help you need with it can usually be had from community legal services for free unless you want them to do the legal paperwork to submit to the court for you,
The cost of making a claim is about $25 and the cost of having the papers served on the other party of about $60
links to articles
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/29/service-valve-australian-consumer-watchdog
http://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...misleading-consumer-guarantee-representations
Last edited:
Agreed - except that you would have to be able to show that your system, which was above the minimum or even above the recommended specs, was free of defects and other impediments that would have prevented the full operation of the software - not an easy thing to do. These forums are full of posts by users claiming that Trainz, going back way before TANE, did not work on their computer and that Auran/N3V was at fault. In many of these cases it was later shown that it was the users system that was at fault- faulty RAM, HDD, configuration settings, corrupted install or OS, etc.
A case in point: I am currently having problems with a 4G USB mobile "dongle" for my laptop. After upgrading from Window 8.1 to 10 it stopped working. Is it the computer, the Win 10 upgrade, or the device that is at fault here? After some investigation I found that the device works perfectly well on other Windows 10 computers, just not on my laptop. Both I and the techies at the manufacturer are baffled.
I have actually been through the small claims process and it is, here in NSW at least, more of a mediation and negotiation process than an adversarial one. There is no magistrate, just a "facilitator" who tries to find points of agreement between the two parties.