A BIG Plea to Creators of assets

cascaderailroad said:

Updating the original kuid, obsoletes the original kuid, removing the older asset from the DLS ... so by this method of simply updating kuids to T:ANE standard, this will permanently break the DLS for 04, 06, 09, 10, 12 users

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You need to determine what you are complaining about. Initially your complaint was that if content creators follow the standard for versioning their updates then it cocks up CM by showing you assets you don't need. That is correct, but is easily dealt with. Now you are saying that it breaks the DLS, which is wrong.

If you want to make a suggestion that has such a significant impact on other users, you really need to get your reasons sorted out.

If a creator, or an 3rd party rougue updater, takes an 04 asset, and fixes it to be of 09 config file, it breaks the asset for 04 & 06 users ... and if someone, or the creator, further updates an 04, 06, 09 asset, and updates it to 12 config file, it breaks it for 04, 06, 09, 10 users ... as the 04, 06, 09, 10 asset is no longer on the DLS, only the 12 version shows, all the lower versions of the asset are eradicated ... but they are still backdatable, and may take many attempts to correct errors ... but when a creator takes that 04, 06 asset, or an 09, 10, 12 asset, and updates it to T:ANE, it removes all the lower versions of that asset from the DLS ... and since T:ANE changes an asset so radically, an updated T:ANE asset is no longer backdatable for use in lower versions ... and all the lower versions of that asset are gone forever from the DLS !

Updating an asset without assigning it a brand new kuid, overwrites the lower version, and removes them all from the DLS, making only the highest version visible, on the white pages DLS

cascaderailroad said:

...
Updating an asset without assigning it a brand new kuid, overwrites the lower version, and removes them all from the DLS, making only the highest version visible, on the white pages DLS

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The shot below shows an interior asset for one of my locos within T:ANE CM. It's a bit hard to read but it says that several build numbers of 3.3 and a build number of 3.7 are available for download. i.e. they are still on the DLS.



I have some sympathy for the original request but changing to a new kuid completely can mess up routes and sessions as identified by BuilderBob in post #12.

A few weeks back I read a post by Chris (windwalkr) that creators shouldn't update the build number unless there is a significant change to the asset. There's no doubt in my mind that assets updated for T:ANE can easily fall into that category. For example, the implementation of the tbumpenv material in T:ANE is very different to TS12 and I need to correct some textures. If I don't change the build number then the assets may look crappy in TS12.

Cascade is spouting nonsense as usual, not sure why you guys bother to reply him.

Correct, old versions remain on the DLS. But, CM will sometimes screw up the updates and install a version that is higher than that which can run in older versions. In some cases this can be easily undone and an older version re-downloaded, but in other cases the assets become dotted white lines and need to be manually replaced/relaid. In BOTH cases, running another in-game update causes this problem again.

pcas1986 said:

The shot below shows an interior asset for one of my locos within T:ANE CM. It's a bit hard to read but it says that several build numbers of 3.3 and a build number of 3.7 are available for download. i.e. they are still on the DLS.



I have some sympathy for the original request but changing to a new kuid completely can mess up routes and sessions as identified by BuilderBob in post #12.

A few weeks back I read a post by Chris (windwalkr) that creators shouldn't update the build number unless there is a significant change to the asset. There's no doubt in my mind that assets updated for T:ANE can easily fall into that category. For example, the implementation of the tbumpenv material in T:ANE is very different to TS12 and I need to correct some textures. If I don't change the build number then the assets may look crappy in TS12.

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What it says in TANES CM is not what physically happens in TS12 though TS12 users are not going to be using TANE to download an old version but TS12.
I tested my route which as promised will remain at TS12 for those who can't afford new hardware, in a clean install. It downloaded all the 4.3 items I had specifically updated for T:ANE not the old versions. Result, broken route with no way of downloading the correct dependencies so I've now undone the 4.2's and re-uploaded the now 3.5's and cloned all the 4.2's including instructions on replacing the old versions if used in T:ANE. My route I will do a TANE version so that won't cause any problems. The items concerned have been modified to appear correctly in TANE and have TANE specfic tags so they have to be at 4.2.

It's not just about updates, I've been happily ignoring them based on build version for some time, it's about old versions that are required for a route that anyone else downloads in TS12 or for that matter any older version that the user does not already have those old dependencies for. TS12 is still being sold and has a while to run before support runs out, hardly fair for those of us with T:ANE to wreck it for them.

@ Cascade, nothing is actually eradicated it's just that it can't be downloaded.

clam1952 said:

@ Cascade, nothing is actually eradicated it's just that it can't be downloaded.

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Which means that the older asset is obsoleted, and is blocked, and deleted, and erased, and has been eradicated, as all the older trainz-build assets of that kuid is totally gone ... Tell me again ... how it's gone forever ... but it is still there ... you just can't see it ... and you can never download the older asset ever again ... but it is not eradicated ???

If Majekear updated all of his 4064 assets to T:ANE trainz-build, all of them would be unusable for 04, 06, 09, 10 ,12 users, as they would show T:ANE trainz-build config files ... and all the older versions of those assets would be eradicated !

cascaderailroad said:

If Majekear updated all of his 4064 assets to T:ANE trainz-build, all of them would be unusable for 04, 06, 09, 10 ,12 users, as they would show T:ANE trainz-build config files ... and all the older versions of those assets would be eradicated !

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That's down to what the individual wants to do. If you want to modernise your assets to keep them relevant and functional in newer editions of Trainz then you're free to do so. If not, then errors will be thrown up, but it should still be fine in older editions.

I'm keen to keep things relevant, I have no reason or obligation to build assets for 04, 06 and so on. Low resolution textures and single core support are not appealing to me. Preach your love for 10 year old software all you want, but we've moved on multiple times since then.

Jack

See ... That's what I mean ... the creators will self-erase all the DLS assets themselves, breaking them for everyone else, and if N3V goes belly up, and T:ANE never gets completed ... the DLS will be self-destroyed by the creators updated assets ... T:ANE is the doom of 04, 06, 09, 10, 12 ... and I think that is in the grande scheme, and plan, of the whole idea ... and nobody cares ... just jumping headlong into T:ANE updating ... nevermind the damage it is doing to the DLS, by eradicating older versions of the old assets.

cascaderailroad said:

See ... That's what I mean ... the creators will self-erase all the DLS assets themselves, breaking them for everyone else, and if N3V goes belly up, and T:ANE never gets completed ... the DLS will be self-destroyed by the creators updated assets ... T:ANE is the doom of 04, 06, 09, 10, 12 ... and I think that is in the grande scheme, and plan, of the whole idea ... and nobody cares ... just jumping headlong into T:ANE updating ... nevermind the damage it is doing to the DLS, by eradicating older versions of the old assets.

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We put those assets there and we will do what we see fit with them. We built them for the good of the community, to be enjoyed, and to keep Trainz relevant we need to keep them functional. Don't target content creators, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Please, do not get worked up over cascaderailroad, of all things.

N3V/CM/DLS indeed has a problem with newer kuids and older Trainz versions. That is just fact, plain and simple.

cascaderailroad said:

Which means that the older asset is obsoleted, and is blocked, and deleted, and erased, and has been eradicated, as all the older trainz-build assets of that kuid is totally gone ... Tell me again ... how it's gone forever ... but it is still there ... you just can't see it ... and you can never download the older asset ever again ... but it is not eradicated ???

If Majekear updated all of his 4064 assets to T:ANE trainz-build, all of them would be unusable for 04, 06, 09, 10 ,12 users, as they would show T:ANE trainz-build config files ... and all the older versions of those assets would be eradicated !

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Repeating the same rubbish over and over again doesn't make it true. I've just downloaded older versions of my assets on the DLS via the white pages and FTP with no trouble at all. All people need to do when they up the build number is to create a new kuid that obsoletes the old ones using the obsolete-table. End of problem for all users.

Paul

paulhobbs said:

Repeating the same rubbish over and over again doesn't make it true. I've just downloaded older versions of my assets on the DLS via the white pages and FTP with no trouble at all. All people need to do when they up the build number is to create a new kuid that obsoletes the old ones using the obsolete-table. End of problem for all users.

Paul

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I was under the impression that N3Vhad disabled the obsolete-table as content creators were using it to remove old content they no longer wished to be associated with from the DLS.

Cheerio John

johnwhelan said:

I was under the impression that N3Vhad disabled the obsolete-table as content creators were using it to remove old content they no longer wished to be associated with from the DLS.

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Obsoleting an asset does not remove it from the DLS, so even if content creators tried to do this it wouldn't work.

The obsolete table is deprecated in favour of the KUID versioning system. However it is still available and is still used, in particular for 'Auran' assets.

The obsolete-table is not deprecated. KUID2 versioning is easier to use in a lot of cases, and works better in some cases, but creators are free to use whichever suits their needs best.

chris

BLACKWATCH said:

Not to us TS12 users who can't run T:ane it insn't, plus there are more TS12 users than there are T:ane.

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Some said this when it was TS2010 migrating to TS12 ... and even others have said it from TS2004, 6 and 9. Someone, I'm sure, will say it in, oh, about 2.5 years, about T:ANE v0.1 assets migrating to T:ANE v2.04 ... until they hit the 27 version limit. (kuid2:xxx:xxx:27)

I'm running TANE TB 4.2.
I have TAD of 354,858.

I have 238,589 assets loaded on my machine currently; virtually the whole useable DLS. I have upversioned the majority of those excluding aliased, paintshed, chunky and tag divider, and builtin locked and payware assets.

According to TANE CM 179,816 are good to use. In sampling via Preview viewer I am able to confirm visually that they are visible. Obviously the quality varies dependent on the skill and experience of the author at the time of creation. And the better it looks the more likely it will be chosen compared to less attractive alternatives.

CM advises me that 96,000 assets are obsoletes on DLS. ergo obsoletes do not disappear.
However, in CM you cannot download any asset that is obsolete. BUT if I was in 04,06,09,10,12 any asset that was equal to or lower than the Trainz version I was using could still be used even if it was obsolete at a higher Trainz version.

I also have a TS12 SP1 HF4 installed with a complete DLS downloaded, and have verified that this is so.

Asset obsoletion is relative to the Trainz version you are using.

cascaderailroad said:

Which means that the older asset is obsoleted, and is blocked, and deleted, and erased, and has been eradicated, as all the older trainz-build assets of that kuid is totally gone ... Tell me again ... how it's gone forever ... but it is still there ... you just can't see it ... and you can never download the older asset ever again ...but it is not eradicated ???

If Majekear updated all of his 4064 assets to T:ANE trainz-build, all of them would be unusable for 04, 06, 09, 10 ,12 users, as they would show T:ANE trainz-build config files ... and all the older versions of those assets would be eradicated !

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The items that are highlighted and boldened are things you believe to be true, but are not. NOTHING is ever removed from the DLS server, unless infected, or required by law. If you use the FTP download, and type the build version you want, you will get the working '04 or '06 version, with correct Config build.

cascaderailroad said:

See ... That's what I mean ... the creators will self-erase all the DLS assets themselves, breaking them for everyone else, and if N3V goes belly up, and T:ANE never gets completed ... the DLS will be self-destroyed by the creators updated assets ... T:ANE is the doom of 04, 06, 09, 10, 12 ... and I think that is in the grande scheme, and plan, of the whole idea ... and nobody cares ... just jumping headlong into T:ANE updating ... nevermind the damage it is doing to the DLS, by eradicating older versions of the old assets.

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1. (insert Geico Ins. old lady meme here) "That's not how it works, That's not how any of this works"

2. Why do you, of all people, not have:
.a. A second, 100% original, installation to (copy/paste) code manually when FUBAR happens?
.b. A storage device for backups of each KUID that you "update" by manually downloading the higher KUID asset?
.c. A post-it note on your monitor reminding you to NOT UPDATE software that has been obsoleted for more than 3 years?
.d. A dedicated non-internet connected computer for your "obsolete" installs?
.e. A tin foil hat to keep the tiny voices at bay?

WindWalkr said:

The obsolete-table is not deprecated. KUID2 versioning is easier to use in a lot of cases, and works better in some cases, but creators are free to use whichever suits their needs best.

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That is a gross over-simplification that ignores the reason for implementing the new versioning system

If an asset is obsoleted using the obsoleting table then the obsoleting asset must exist on the user's system for CM to know that it obsoletes that other asset.

If the versioning method is used then CM only needs to know that the KUID exists - no detail of the asset is required.

That difference has major implications for the obsolete filter, and the information presented to users in CM. If the obsolete table is not already deprecated, then it should be.

Would probably been more effective to post your response about ten months ago....kinda loses something if you wait too long...

BLACKWATCH said:

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, give a thought to all those who cannot afford to update their computer to the specs to run 'T:ane'.

I have a machine that will run TS12 with a minimum of stutter, I cannot & WILL NOT spend money that I cannot afford on updating
my graphics card & memory plus my processor, just to run 1 bloody game.

IF you must update your TS12 assets to run in builds higher than 3.7 (TS 12-SP1) would you PLEASE, PLEASE give them a
different 'Kuid' number, instead of just incrementing the current Kuid.

By doing just upping the Kuid version, you break it for us TS12 users, have a thought for those of us who have donated our
money to further your gaming pleasure, knowing that we cannot actually take part.

YES, the old component will still work in our version, but it don't half make a GIANT COCK-UP of our content manager, cos it
keeps telling (nagging) us that there are updates, WHEN WE CAN'T USE THE FRIGGIN' THINGS.

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Thank You was thinking the same thing.