Amtrak Train Crashes In Philly
- Thread starter watemple
- Start date
LandShark229
The Broken Brilliance
According to testimonies and statements from those onboard, it seems that a gradual deceleration was occurred followed by "the feeling of someone slamming on the brakes in a car" before a "loud bang and collision, sending people flying everywhere." (Quote paraphrased, multiple sources)
From what I can interpret, the engineer most likely was having difficulty slowing down or was unaware of the curve until it was too late. The fact that he has been fully cooperating with authorities and investigators shows that he most likely had little or no control over the situation.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved in the accident, as well as any families who have lost loved ones so far.
-12:10 PM PST-
Edit: Drowsiness could also be a major factor in this, note the time and location at which it occurred. Long stretches of track with repetitive scenery, no stars out and pretty dark. It would be like having to operate the Eurostar through a sharp curve inside the Channel Tunnel.
From what I can interpret, the engineer most likely was having difficulty slowing down or was unaware of the curve until it was too late. The fact that he has been fully cooperating with authorities and investigators shows that he most likely had little or no control over the situation.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved in the accident, as well as any families who have lost loved ones so far.
-12:10 PM PST-
Edit: Drowsiness could also be a major factor in this, note the time and location at which it occurred. Long stretches of track with repetitive scenery, no stars out and pretty dark. It would be like having to operate the Eurostar through a sharp curve inside the Channel Tunnel.
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MeowRailroad
CKRail
This may not be related, but from Trains magazine:
"PHILADELPHIA – Officials say a Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority commuter train was struck by "an unknown projectile" in the same area just minutes before the deadly Amtrak derailment Tuesday night, the Philadelphia Inquirer reports.
Northbound train No. 769, operating between Philadelphia and Trenton, N.J., about 9:25 p.m. along the Northeast Corridor near the site of the derailment, according to SEPTA Jerri Williams. The incident broke the engineer's window on that train.
"There is no indication at this time that the two incidents are related in any way," Williams said.
No injuries were reported and passengers continued their trips by bus."
Although, on the article about the crash, the FBI thinks terrorism wasn't involved.
Sorry for bad formatting.
"PHILADELPHIA – Officials say a Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority commuter train was struck by "an unknown projectile" in the same area just minutes before the deadly Amtrak derailment Tuesday night, the Philadelphia Inquirer reports.
Northbound train No. 769, operating between Philadelphia and Trenton, N.J., about 9:25 p.m. along the Northeast Corridor near the site of the derailment, according to SEPTA Jerri Williams. The incident broke the engineer's window on that train.
"There is no indication at this time that the two incidents are related in any way," Williams said.
No injuries were reported and passengers continued their trips by bus."
Although, on the article about the crash, the FBI thinks terrorism wasn't involved.
Sorry for bad formatting.
From what I've read, the engineer involved was one of the best trained for the line and was often given the 188 assignment for North from Philadelphia to New York. Also 188 would have departed North Philadelphia minutes before and from what I know from talking to enginemen and conductors, the ACS-64 has a real problem with quick acceleration/breaking.
Hi everybody.
This incident has been reported widely here in the UK and Europe making first item on news broadcasts throughout the whole day. It is now being stated on the BBC news channel that the train was travelling at over 100 mph within a 50 mph speed restricted area. It is also being reported that the driver (engineer) has refused to make any statement to the investigating authorities and left the interview accompanied by an attorney.
The locomotives on board tachograph (black box recorder) has been recovered which will without doubt divulge all control operations and settings from the commencement of the journey up to and including the moments prior to the incident. Modern Tacagraphs are extremely accurate especially when it comes to recording speed. Electrical impulses are sent from the vehicle gearbox to both the locomotive dashboard and recorder unit. Being they work by electrical impulse they are never inaccurate as they either work to that exacting perimeter or they do not work at all, which is extremely rare.
Having worked in transport safety for the last 30 years the first rule that any vocational driver is instructed in is always, that if you feel drowsy or unwell in any way while at the controls of a vehicle you slow, stop and make contact with your operations control or others who may be on the vehicle (in this case the other train staff) so that they may assist you. There are no “ifs or buts” about the foregoing when people’s lives are at stake.
Throughout Europe rail drivers have to qualify to drive on any route which they learn from instructors already qualified to drive the route. I am not sure but I would think that the same or similar system will apply in the United States. Therefore, there can be no excuse in saying that the driver (engineer) of this train would not have known of exactly where he was on the journey ether day or night and of the speed restriction on the curve.
Those who qualify and take up the occupation of heavy goods driver, train engineer or airline pilot in the worldwide transport industry take on a heavy responsibility which they must always live up throughout every minute of their working lives. It is often seen as a high-profile “glamorous” occupation in which those who carry it out find they are looked up to by many. However, I always find that I have no respect for those in the occupation who do not maintain the standards to which they are initially trained and thereby put their own and more importantly the lives of others at risk.
It may well be that the incident investigation(s) may find that the responsibility for the accident does not lay with the locomotive engineer, but with other failures or reasons. That stated, the evidence seems to point in the direction of locomotive personnel operational failure at this point in time. If the foregoing is the case then I would have to say that this driver (engineer) should “have the book thrown at him” with penalties in line with those stated by cascade Railroad in this thread.
My sympathies go out in the families and friends of all those killed in this incident and those who have incurred perhaps life changing injuries.
Bill
This incident has been reported widely here in the UK and Europe making first item on news broadcasts throughout the whole day. It is now being stated on the BBC news channel that the train was travelling at over 100 mph within a 50 mph speed restricted area. It is also being reported that the driver (engineer) has refused to make any statement to the investigating authorities and left the interview accompanied by an attorney.
The locomotives on board tachograph (black box recorder) has been recovered which will without doubt divulge all control operations and settings from the commencement of the journey up to and including the moments prior to the incident. Modern Tacagraphs are extremely accurate especially when it comes to recording speed. Electrical impulses are sent from the vehicle gearbox to both the locomotive dashboard and recorder unit. Being they work by electrical impulse they are never inaccurate as they either work to that exacting perimeter or they do not work at all, which is extremely rare.
Having worked in transport safety for the last 30 years the first rule that any vocational driver is instructed in is always, that if you feel drowsy or unwell in any way while at the controls of a vehicle you slow, stop and make contact with your operations control or others who may be on the vehicle (in this case the other train staff) so that they may assist you. There are no “ifs or buts” about the foregoing when people’s lives are at stake.
Throughout Europe rail drivers have to qualify to drive on any route which they learn from instructors already qualified to drive the route. I am not sure but I would think that the same or similar system will apply in the United States. Therefore, there can be no excuse in saying that the driver (engineer) of this train would not have known of exactly where he was on the journey ether day or night and of the speed restriction on the curve.
Those who qualify and take up the occupation of heavy goods driver, train engineer or airline pilot in the worldwide transport industry take on a heavy responsibility which they must always live up throughout every minute of their working lives. It is often seen as a high-profile “glamorous” occupation in which those who carry it out find they are looked up to by many. However, I always find that I have no respect for those in the occupation who do not maintain the standards to which they are initially trained and thereby put their own and more importantly the lives of others at risk.
It may well be that the incident investigation(s) may find that the responsibility for the accident does not lay with the locomotive engineer, but with other failures or reasons. That stated, the evidence seems to point in the direction of locomotive personnel operational failure at this point in time. If the foregoing is the case then I would have to say that this driver (engineer) should “have the book thrown at him” with penalties in line with those stated by cascade Railroad in this thread.
My sympathies go out in the families and friends of all those killed in this incident and those who have incurred perhaps life changing injuries.
Bill
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Engineers & Conductors over here also must be qualified to run on a line. That doesn't mean that he could have been having a bad/off day and got confused. The engineer in question is one of the expert engineers for that section of line, making ti even less likely that he didn't know where he was.
As for not talking to investigators & such. That's common practice with unions, his (probably) union provided lawyer probably told him not to say anything.
The 100+mph is now the official speed announced by the NTSB after reviewing the Black Box.
If the fault is with the engine I would presume it's was with the displayed speed on the engineer's screen rather then the speed gathered by the Black Box. Or faulty software, the locomotive used is very new.
peter
As for not talking to investigators & such. That's common practice with unions, his (probably) union provided lawyer probably told him not to say anything.
The 100+mph is now the official speed announced by the NTSB after reviewing the Black Box.
If the fault is with the engine I would presume it's was with the displayed speed on the engineer's screen rather then the speed gathered by the Black Box. Or faulty software, the locomotive used is very new.
peter
MeowRailroad
CKRail
They do have a screen in them indicating problems, with more severe ones listed in red. Possibly the was something wrong w/ the loco and the software/computer hardware, and the engineer didn't know until too late. The emergency brake was applied, though, so the engineer was probably ok. Even if he wasn't, there most likely was a 2nd person in the cab to help if he was.
Read this Dec 2013 article. If the NEC is really equiped with the safety controls mentioned in the 4th paragraph, why was this train speeding in excess of 100mph? Either someone is misinformed or something is certainly not working properly.
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php...n-crews-less-safe-than-a-single-engineer.html
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php...n-crews-less-safe-than-a-single-engineer.html
For those who aren't familiar with the accident location it's within the city of Philadelphia, PA. Train 188 is a daily train from Washington DC to New York, NY. Scheduled departure from 30th St Station in center city Philadelphia is 9:06PM and the next stop is Trenton, NJ at 9:38PM. Frankfurt Junction, just south of the curve where the train left the track, is approx 8 miles north of 30th Street Station and the route between it and the station is anything but straight. There a few of tight curves - you're still within the city. Port Richmond section of Philadelphia lies between the wreck site and the Delaware River.
Just bought a RT Amtrak ticket Philadelphia to Boston (PHL- BBY) - website is advising finding alternative transport for portions of the route even thru next week.
Bob Pearson
Just bought a RT Amtrak ticket Philadelphia to Boston (PHL- BBY) - website is advising finding alternative transport for portions of the route even thru next week.
Bob Pearson
cascaderailroad
New member
Watching 2 cab ride videos (one real, and one Railworks) I could never drive a high speed train.
Teeny weeny, almost soot blackened, indistinguishable, signals are almost unable to be read, until you pass right by them, and an in cab HUD signal, way off to the lower right of the console.
On these cab rides it shows 100mph on the straight track leading to the Frankford junction curve, then suddenly a 50mph HUD signal pops on (SURPRISE ... AHHHHHH Firetruck !), right at the start of the curve.
Jam on the emergency brakes, the train slack suddenly bunches in, and the whole mess balls up in the tangled rails, steel girder poles, and catenary, skidding outward from the curve.
Teeny weeny, almost soot blackened, indistinguishable, signals are almost unable to be read, until you pass right by them, and an in cab HUD signal, way off to the lower right of the console.
On these cab rides it shows 100mph on the straight track leading to the Frankford junction curve, then suddenly a 50mph HUD signal pops on (SURPRISE ... AHHHHHH Firetruck !), right at the start of the curve.
Jam on the emergency brakes, the train slack suddenly bunches in, and the whole mess balls up in the tangled rails, steel girder poles, and catenary, skidding outward from the curve.
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Hi everybody.
This accident is still being reported widely on the news channels here in the UK and throughout Europe and we were just chatting about it in our office a few minutes ago.
torino72, The Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System (ACSES) which you make reference to at #30 of this thread has not been fitted on the section of the track where this incident occurred, according to those who are carrying out the accident investigation. A similar system known as “train protection system” (TPS) is widely used here on the United Kingdom rail network.
However, in two recent incidents which fortunately did not lead to any accident or loss of life it was found following investigation that the TPS system had been disabled by the drivers of the trains involved. One of the drivers has been brought to court and received a three-month prison sentence suspended for two years. He has also been dismissed by Thames Link his employers and has lost all his qualifications for driving any trains throughout the British rail network.
PBY357, it is very often stated that “familiarity breeds contempt” and the foregoing may well have been the case with the engineer driving this train. As stated he is one of the most experienced Amtrak drivers with great knowledge of the line between Philadelphia and New York.
It is being reported that the trains brakes in the minute and seconds prior to the incident where at first partially applied followed by full emergency mode. If correct the report does demonstrate that the trains brakes where working correctly and efficiently. As the engineer had excellent knowledge of the line he would have been well aware of exactly where he was in terms of the journeys progress, and of the speed restriction on the curve.
All the above can only lead to the conclusion that the engineer had ether a complete lapse of concentration or he had exceeded the speed limit on the curve when carrying out previous journeys and had no reason to think that any incident would occur when doing the same on this journey “familiarity breeding contempt”.
There are those on this forum view train operating personnel (engineers, drivers) as people can do no wrong and revere them in an almost god like manner. The truth is that they are the same as any other employed person, possessing the same faults and frailties as others when it comes to carrying out their work.
When working in an office a mistake will just cost time, money and perhaps the loss of a customer. However, when working in transport especially when operating heavy vehicles be that road or rail, a mistake can cost the lives of the passengers entrusted to the care of the driver of a vehicle as well as those in the vicinity of any incident. Therefore, the penalties imposed by courts have to be severe if it is found that a driver acted in a negligent manner and below the level of his training.
In the above courts can not only bring closure and justice to accident victims and their next of kin, but also deter others in the transport industry from carrying out similar irresponsible malpractice if that be the case in this incident. In my many years working in industrial safety I have to state firmly that I believe that the forgoing is the way it should be.
Bill
This accident is still being reported widely on the news channels here in the UK and throughout Europe and we were just chatting about it in our office a few minutes ago.
torino72, The Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System (ACSES) which you make reference to at #30 of this thread has not been fitted on the section of the track where this incident occurred, according to those who are carrying out the accident investigation. A similar system known as “train protection system” (TPS) is widely used here on the United Kingdom rail network.
However, in two recent incidents which fortunately did not lead to any accident or loss of life it was found following investigation that the TPS system had been disabled by the drivers of the trains involved. One of the drivers has been brought to court and received a three-month prison sentence suspended for two years. He has also been dismissed by Thames Link his employers and has lost all his qualifications for driving any trains throughout the British rail network.
PBY357, it is very often stated that “familiarity breeds contempt” and the foregoing may well have been the case with the engineer driving this train. As stated he is one of the most experienced Amtrak drivers with great knowledge of the line between Philadelphia and New York.
It is being reported that the trains brakes in the minute and seconds prior to the incident where at first partially applied followed by full emergency mode. If correct the report does demonstrate that the trains brakes where working correctly and efficiently. As the engineer had excellent knowledge of the line he would have been well aware of exactly where he was in terms of the journeys progress, and of the speed restriction on the curve.
All the above can only lead to the conclusion that the engineer had ether a complete lapse of concentration or he had exceeded the speed limit on the curve when carrying out previous journeys and had no reason to think that any incident would occur when doing the same on this journey “familiarity breeding contempt”.
There are those on this forum view train operating personnel (engineers, drivers) as people can do no wrong and revere them in an almost god like manner. The truth is that they are the same as any other employed person, possessing the same faults and frailties as others when it comes to carrying out their work.
When working in an office a mistake will just cost time, money and perhaps the loss of a customer. However, when working in transport especially when operating heavy vehicles be that road or rail, a mistake can cost the lives of the passengers entrusted to the care of the driver of a vehicle as well as those in the vicinity of any incident. Therefore, the penalties imposed by courts have to be severe if it is found that a driver acted in a negligent manner and below the level of his training.
In the above courts can not only bring closure and justice to accident victims and their next of kin, but also deter others in the transport industry from carrying out similar irresponsible malpractice if that be the case in this incident. In my many years working in industrial safety I have to state firmly that I believe that the forgoing is the way it should be.
Bill
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cascaderailroad
New member
NO we don't ... We just fly by the seat of our pants, with our hand pulling us along by our ding a ling, hoping and praying that the infrastructure directly ahead of us does not collapse, we just pick up the body parts, and blame it on the engineer.
Richard Gates the engineer trainee on the CR light movement, that blocked the Congressional Limited at Gunpowder falls interlocking, on January 4, 1987, spent 4 years in a Maryland prison, the accident, which killed 16 people and injured more than 170.
Richard Gates the engineer trainee on the CR light movement, that blocked the Congressional Limited at Gunpowder falls interlocking, on January 4, 1987, spent 4 years in a Maryland prison, the accident, which killed 16 people and injured more than 170.
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UPDATE: Amtrak engineer has 'no recollection' of crash
That's what his attorney told the news reporters. Also, you can now see it using Google Earth or the Satellite view in Google Maps.
@fen_tiger: There is not a nationwide train protection system. However, Automatic Train Protection (ATP) is used in places where the use justifies the extra expense of using ATP, such as mass transit systems, like subways. The Northeast Corridor (NEC)'s ACSES is the most well known. However, Positive Train Control (PTC) is a variation of TPS, and is intended to be used nationwide to prevent accidents. However, there are several versions of PTC being made by different companies partnering with different railroads across the country. My concern about this is that the various PTC systems may not be compatible with each other.
Article about Amtrak driver:
https://gma.yahoo.com/amtrak-engineer-very-distraught-doesnt-remember-crash-attorney-044400565--abc-news-topstories.html
Positive Train Control:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control
That's what his attorney told the news reporters. Also, you can now see it using Google Earth or the Satellite view in Google Maps.
@fen_tiger: There is not a nationwide train protection system. However, Automatic Train Protection (ATP) is used in places where the use justifies the extra expense of using ATP, such as mass transit systems, like subways. The Northeast Corridor (NEC)'s ACSES is the most well known. However, Positive Train Control (PTC) is a variation of TPS, and is intended to be used nationwide to prevent accidents. However, there are several versions of PTC being made by different companies partnering with different railroads across the country. My concern about this is that the various PTC systems may not be compatible with each other.
Article about Amtrak driver:
https://gma.yahoo.com/amtrak-engineer-very-distraught-doesnt-remember-crash-attorney-044400565--abc-news-topstories.html
Positive Train Control:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control
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The FBI has been called in to investigate the possibility that Amtrak Train 188 was also struck by some kind of projectiles just before the wreck occurred. Apparently windshields on 3 trains traveling thru the Frankfurt Junction area may have been struck that night shortly before the time the wreck occurred: (NB) SEPTA Trenton Line Train 769, (NB) Amtrak NE Regional Train 188 and (SB) Amtrak Acela Train 2173.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/septa-call-released-night-amtrak-034258840.html
Bob Pearson
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hauntedclipp
copper-crowned
Could the projectile have played some part in the crash? Photos of the SEPTA train that was struck showed the windshield intact, but with an obvious point of impact. The Acela from that night was hit on one of the carriages rather than the windshield. The loco of Train 188 has a couple spots similar to both.
(left): The windshield of Train 188. (center): The windshield of the SEPTA train. (right): The carriage window on the Acela.
I don't see how this projectile could have had anything to do with the crash, seeing as whatever it was didn't puncture the loco's windshield. But it would be an incredible coincidence or rotten luck if some half-wit were out throwing things at trains and one of the hit targets happened to crash in the same area. The train's speed was obviously the cause of the crash, but the cause for the speed is still unknown.
(left): The windshield of Train 188. (center): The windshield of the SEPTA train. (right): The carriage window on the Acela.
I don't see how this projectile could have had anything to do with the crash, seeing as whatever it was didn't puncture the loco's windshield. But it would be an incredible coincidence or rotten luck if some half-wit were out throwing things at trains and one of the hit targets happened to crash in the same area. The train's speed was obviously the cause of the crash, but the cause for the speed is still unknown.
Hi everybody.
I have just been reading on the BBC News website that the FBI has been asked to investigate the possibility that the Amtrak train was struck by an object just prior to the accident. However, even if the FBI investigation should conclude that the train windshield was struck by an object it only “muddies the water” even more as to why this accident happened.
If we look at it from what would be an accident investigators train of thought, an object hitting the windshield would either just crack/chip the glass and drop down outside the vehicle, or penetrate right through the windshield and enter the drivers cab.
Taking the first of the above two instances, I am sure many of us who drive regularly have on occasions experienced our windshield being hit (sometimes very hard) by stones etc thrown up by other vehicles. A drivers normal reaction on hearing the loud bang that always accompanies a hard windscreen strike is initial shock, followed immediately by a brake application which normally is quite fierce.
However in the above, the on-board tachograph recording of the incident is reported that the train continued to accelerate until a few a few seconds prior to derailing when an emergency application of the brakes was applied. Therefore, if the windscreen was struck by an object which did not penetrate into the cab, the driver certainly did not react in any way that would have normally been expected.
Therefore, it leaves the possibility that an abject struck the windshield shattering it and penetrating into the cab and in the process disabling the driver from any action. However, the foregoing begs the question what happened to the on-board train protection. In the United Kingdom all trains or/locomotives are fitted with what is known as a “dead man system”. The system normally has a hand or foot operated lever that has to be constantly pressed down whenever the train is in motion. Should the driver become unconscious or immobilised in any way the lever is released and a full emergency brake application is applied.
On more modern locomotives/trains I believe the dead man comprises of a button which has to be pressed every few seconds. If the foregoing action is not carried out an alarm sounds in the cab followed by an emergency brake application a few seconds later. As stated the above is the standard protection for trains operating on the British rail network, but I would imagine a similar system would be in operation in the United States. Therefore the question is, why did the “dead man system” not kick in and protect the train and its passengers if the driver was rendered unconscious by an object entering the cab.
This case seems to grow evermore strange each passing day.
Bill
I have just been reading on the BBC News website that the FBI has been asked to investigate the possibility that the Amtrak train was struck by an object just prior to the accident. However, even if the FBI investigation should conclude that the train windshield was struck by an object it only “muddies the water” even more as to why this accident happened.
If we look at it from what would be an accident investigators train of thought, an object hitting the windshield would either just crack/chip the glass and drop down outside the vehicle, or penetrate right through the windshield and enter the drivers cab.
Taking the first of the above two instances, I am sure many of us who drive regularly have on occasions experienced our windshield being hit (sometimes very hard) by stones etc thrown up by other vehicles. A drivers normal reaction on hearing the loud bang that always accompanies a hard windscreen strike is initial shock, followed immediately by a brake application which normally is quite fierce.
However in the above, the on-board tachograph recording of the incident is reported that the train continued to accelerate until a few a few seconds prior to derailing when an emergency application of the brakes was applied. Therefore, if the windscreen was struck by an object which did not penetrate into the cab, the driver certainly did not react in any way that would have normally been expected.
Therefore, it leaves the possibility that an abject struck the windshield shattering it and penetrating into the cab and in the process disabling the driver from any action. However, the foregoing begs the question what happened to the on-board train protection. In the United Kingdom all trains or/locomotives are fitted with what is known as a “dead man system”. The system normally has a hand or foot operated lever that has to be constantly pressed down whenever the train is in motion. Should the driver become unconscious or immobilised in any way the lever is released and a full emergency brake application is applied.
On more modern locomotives/trains I believe the dead man comprises of a button which has to be pressed every few seconds. If the foregoing action is not carried out an alarm sounds in the cab followed by an emergency brake application a few seconds later. As stated the above is the standard protection for trains operating on the British rail network, but I would imagine a similar system would be in operation in the United States. Therefore the question is, why did the “dead man system” not kick in and protect the train and its passengers if the driver was rendered unconscious by an object entering the cab.
This case seems to grow evermore strange each passing day.
Bill
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Service will resume tomorrow for both Amtrak and SEPTA, although SEPTA will skip a few stations that are located between interlockings on either side of the crash site. SEPTA plans to resume full service on Tuesday.
FYI, interesting read about the replacement of the catenary poles:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20150518_Bucks_company_puts_pedal_to_metal_for_Amtrak.html
Of the accident and rescue:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/The_wreck_of_Train_No_188.html
And the cab:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Inside_the_cab_of_Train_188.html?c=r
FYI, interesting read about the replacement of the catenary poles:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20150518_Bucks_company_puts_pedal_to_metal_for_Amtrak.html
Of the accident and rescue:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/The_wreck_of_Train_No_188.html
And the cab:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Inside_the_cab_of_Train_188.html?c=r
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