Trainz-build numbers below 3.7 are no longer supported....

What makes this build flap so ridiculous is that an asset made with the latest 3D program can be labelled as build 1.3 and can be imported into CM3.7. The only waring is 'This asset uses an obsolete trainz-build number. Trainz-build numbers below 2.9 are no longer supported.' As long as the config can be read, the asset looks no different from 2004 right up to TS12 HF4.
 
To be fair, that's too simplistic. It's not just about looks, it's also about performance and they are trying to improve it by imposing tighter and tighter requirements on things like poly-count, LOD, mesh-stitching (whatever that is) and texture quality with every increase in build number. In general, I support that trend, it's just that they jerk us around a lot by not sticking to their plans and only sometimes informing us of changes.
 
Back in September 2014, they went on record as saying support for TS2009/TS2010 would stop sometime during that month. Fine, we expected that, so I took them at their word and ceased production (since I only had TS2010). I didn't bother to look at the DLS for a while, but several months later I noticed by chance that TS2009/2010 stuff was still being allowed onto the DLS! No announcement from N3V about the delayed ending of support.

As per our life-cycle policy:


Q: Will the Download Station continue to host content for Trainz editions beyond their end-of-support date?
A: We will not immediately remove older content from the Download Station, as newer editions of Trainz can still use this content.
Q: Will I be able to upload old-format content to the Download Station?

A: New uploads to the Download Station must be in a format no older than our oldest supported product. Attempts to upload content with a trainz-build number lower than our oldest supported product will be rejected. This ensures that legacy formats are cleanly phased out over time.

I'm sorry if this comes as a surprise to you, but it's certainly there in plain text and our policies have not changed.

Yes, we sometimes take our time about phasing out support for older products. While it is clear that we need to phase out older formats over time, we don't always undertake the work on the exact date that support ends- typically we update the DLS tools in batches with new features going in and old formats coming out. This delay is a technical concern only, and does not affect whether we consider a given format to be supported. The life-cycle policy is the final word on support.

kind regards,

chris
 
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And mind you, Chris, it doesn't state a specific version, which then dictates that TS12 as a whole will be supported, not bits and pieces of it. It seems that your "life cycle policy" has become nothing more than a curtain to hide behind when your company chooses to make stupid decisions like this.

but-thats-none-of-my-business-gif.jpg
 
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As per our life-cycle policy:

I'm sorry if this comes as a surprise to you, but it's certainly there in plain text and our policies have not changed.

Yes, we sometimes take our time about phasing out support for older products. While it is clear that we need to phase out older formats over time, we don't always undertake the work on the exact date that support ends- typically we update the DLS tools in batches with new features going in and old formats coming out. This delay is a technical concern only, and does not affect whether we consider a given format to be supported. The life-cycle policy is the final word on support.

kind regards,

chris



None of that comes as a surprise to me. What did surprise me was the massive discrepancy between what Zec announced as the cut-off date for TS2009/TS2010 uploads (Sept 2014) and what actually transpired (April 2015). Nobody would be bothered if the actual un-support date was a few weeks late, but it was a full 8 months late. If I'd known in October 2014 that TS2010 had a 8 month stay of execution, I would have been quite happy, but nobody from N3V bothered to inform the creator community about it, so I squandered a good few months that I could have used to tidy things up before the axe fell.

.
 
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To be fair, that's too simplistic. It's not just about looks, it's also about performance and they are trying to improve it by imposing tighter and tighter requirements on things like poly-count, LOD, mesh-stitching (whatever that is) and texture quality with every increase in build number. In general, I support that trend, it's just that they jerk us around a lot by not sticking to their plans and only sometimes informing us of changes.

Accurate and complete documentation on how to build to what they want would be nice...
 
None of that is a surprise to me. It was the discrepancy between what Zec announced as the cut-off date for uploads (Sept 2014) and what actually transpired (April 2015).

The cutoff date was for TS2009/2010, not TS12. The problem is, they've included TS12 (certain builds, at least) in the recent cutoff as well. And they can't give a valid reason; Chris claims it's because of 3.7's 'improved validation', but one can build to 3.7 standards and set a build level below that just fine. Many if not most of us have been doing that all along.
 
To be fair, that's too simplistic. It's not just about looks, it's also about performance and they are trying to improve it by imposing tighter and tighter requirements on things like poly-count, LOD, mesh-stitching (whatever that is) and texture quality with every increase in build number. In general, I support that trend, it's just that they jerk us around a lot by not sticking to their plans and only sometimes informing us of changes.

Could have done it right and forgot about backwards compatibility to force all the changes they now want.
 
The cutoff date was for TS2009/2010, not TS12.

We still provide support for TS12. The choice to make use of that support or not is on you.


And they can't give a valid reason; Chris claims it's because of 3.7's 'improved validation', but one can build to 3.7 standards and set a build level below that just fine. Many if not most of us have been doing that all along.

I'm sorry, but that is exactly the reason. Validation helps to ensure that content actually works to some reasonable degree. It's not perfect, but it's a darn sight better than no validation at all.

Holding yourself to a higher quality bar than is strictly required is certainly a noble goal, but there are two obvious problems with that approach:

1. If you build to a given standard, then back-date the version number, it's quite possible that your content will not actually run on the version number you claim. Eventually, we may have validation that is smart enough to pick up on this kind of problem, but so far our validation is focused on what causes problems for the current Trainz version, not for detecting possible problems with previous versions. For this reason we have never recommended back-dating content.

2. The validation code has no way to determine your support goals other than the trainz-build number. If you claim that you are building for 1.3, the validation code will have to take that at face value. This will means that a lot of checks are suppressed in the name of compatibility, which is not a good thing for anyone when we're talking about building new content. I guess this is where we could add a new tag, along the lines of "please validate me up to v4.1, but assuming I pass that, allow me to be used down to v3.1." This is actually quite reasonable and I'll mention it to the team, but it's not entirely trivial for us to implement (mostly because of point 1 above.)

chris
 
We still provide support for TS12. The choice to make use of that support or not is on you.


Um, no. You are cutting off support for most of TS12, because as stated before, TS12 as a product encompasses all of it's builds.





I'm sorry, but that is exactly the reason. Validation helps to ensure that content actually works to some reasonable degree. It's not perfect, but it's a darn sight better than no validation at all.

I do believe you contradicted yourself here, as the "improved validation" that was specified was applied to the build number alone, and the build number really has nothing to do with the quality of the asset itself. Whether or not it actually works is up to the quality of the content itself, not the version of the game in which it was created.



Holding yourself to a higher quality bar than is strictly required is certainly a noble goal, but there are two obvious problems with that approach:

1. If you build to a given standard, then back-date the version number, it's quite possible that your content will not actually run on the version number you claim. Eventually, we may have validation that is smart enough to pick up on this kind of problem, but so far our validation is focused on what causes problems for the current Trainz version, not for detecting possible problems with previous versions. For this reason we have never recommended back-dating content.

Many here on the forums would prove otherwise in most cases. I've seen many assets that the creators have sworn would only work in "TS12 only," only to have multiple creators easily backdate said content into an older version, even as old as TS06 or TS04. All it takes is a bit of effort and you can get most anything working in earlier versions.

2. The validation code has no way to determine your support goals other than the trainz-build number. If you claim that you are building for 1.3, the validation code will have to take that at face value. This will means that a lot of checks are suppressed in the name of compatibility, which is not a good thing for anyone when we're talking about building new content. I guess this is where we could add a new tag, along the lines of "please validate me up to v4.1, but assuming I pass that, allow me to be used down to v3.1." This is actually quite reasonable and I'll mention it to the team, but it's not entirely trivial for us to implement (mostly because of point 1 above.)

First off, when has N3V EVER been friendly to content creators? Second, the system that you have implemented, by virtue of the way you explained it, is therefore just a redundancy to the tried-and-true build number system, which has worked like a charm for years. I don't see any worthwhile change that really necessitates skipping ahead and using it on a version that would arguably require a retrofit for this new system rather than just using it on a new game in the first place.
 
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We still provide support for TS12. The choice to make use of that support or not is on you.

No, not at all. The failure to support my *in support* product is wholly on you. Once again, I'm going by both the product you advertised and marketed to me when I pre-purchased it well before it was released, the product as it's still marketed today, and the product I bought and your stated lifecycle policy. And they all say the exact same thing: It's TS12. There is nothing about revisions. Ultimately, that's all that matters.

I'm sorry, but that is exactly the reason. Validation helps to ensure that content actually works to some reasonable degree. It's not perfect, but it's a darn sight better than no validation at all.

And building content to a higher standard but setting a lower minimum Trainz-build has worked well for years. It may not be perfect, but it's a darn sight better than excluding paying customers who took you at your word and bought your product in good faith.

Holding yourself to a higher quality bar than is strictly required is certainly a noble goal, but there are two obvious problems with that approach:

1. If you build to a given standard, then back-date the version number, it's quite possible that your content will not actually run on the version number you claim. Eventually, we may have validation that is smart enough to pick up on this kind of problem, but so far our validation is focused on what causes problems for the current Trainz version, not for detecting possible problems with previous versions. For this reason we have never recommended back-dating content.

Then that is on you; it is your fault for not providing the proper validation, not your customers. Interestingly, Trainzers have been saying that for longer than I've been around. Perhaps you should listen.

Moreover, the few situations in which your assertion might possibly be true can be (and has been for years) generally addressed by content creators by building version- or level-specific items - sometimes just for one version, sometimes multiple versions, such as pre-TS12 and TS12 and up, for example. Unlike N3V, individual content creators did not write the marketing materials for Trainz, did not publish the lifecycle policy, and have no binding obligation to support any specific version or versions, or even to create content at all.

2. The validation code has no way to determine your support goals other than the trainz-build number. If you claim that you are building for 1.3, the validation code will have to take that at face value. This will means that a lot of checks are suppressed in the name of compatibility, which is not a good thing for anyone when we're talking about building new content. I guess this is where we could add a new tag, along the lines of "please validate me up to v4.1, but assuming I pass that, allow me to be used down to v3.1." This is actually quite reasonable and I'll mention it to the team, but it's not entirely trivial for us to implement (mostly because of point 1 above.)

Not sure why you didn't do that from the beginning but that's your problem, not mine. I'm not going to suffer the consequences of your lack of proper planning. You should become familiar with a saying that I learned in my flying days, but which is common in the business world as well: "A lack of proper planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine."
 
I am really glad I have some other sims to spend my time on, cos this one is dead in the water.
Cheers,
Mike
 
And mind you, Chris, it doesn't state a specific version, which then dictates that TS12 as a whole will be supported, not bits and pieces of it. It seems that your "life cycle policy" has become nothing more than a curtain to hide behind when your company chooses to make stupid decisions like this.

but-thats-none-of-my-business-gif.jpg
I didn't know Kermit drank tea................LOL.
 
And they all say the exact same thing: It's TS12.

Exactly. We still support TS12. As you say, that's all that matters.



And building content to a higher standard but setting a lower minimum Trainz-build has worked well for years. It may not be perfect, but it's a darn sight better than excluding paying customers who took you at your word and bought your product in good faith.

We're not excluding anybody, except where their product is old enough that it is no longer supported based on our life-cycle policy. Anybody with TS12 who is feeling excluded can resolve this by simply installing the patches that have been around for quite a long time now. Anybody with an older product can no longer upload their older-version content to our servers, but they can generally still download content, even though their product is officially unsupported.



Then that is on you; it is your fault for not providing the proper validation, not your customers. Interestingly, Trainzers have been saying that for longer than I've been around. Perhaps you should listen.

We are. That's exactly what this change is about. Improving the validation.



You should become familiar with a saying that I learned in my flying days, but which is common in the business world as well: "A lack of proper planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine."

Completely agree. There's no reason for you to consider this an emergency. It's business as usual.


kind regards,

chris
 
Accurate and complete documentation on how to build to what they want would be nice...
In your dreams and pigs fly too :eek:.

N3V Games make the damn program, they know what is required to make a current asset but it almost looks like we content creators are not wanted anymore, hence we are kept in the dark. Take the new tunnels and bridges as example, Rob placed two 3DS Max files of these into the TrainzWiki to study from, all with NEW tags and names for tunnels and bridges. Yet, to add insult to injury, NONE of the new tags info needed for these and other stuff for these new items could be found anywhere in the TrainzWiki.

If I had not pestered James Moody for at least to give us the configurations for the new tags and Rob finally uploaded one of each of a new tunnel and a new bridge on the DLS, to study and learn from, we would still be waiting to see how these can be made.

I haven't touched my 3DS Max since last XMas as the Tane CE versions so far to test with are still flakey. Even when TANE will be released end of May, I have a feeling it will be similar to what happened at the first TS12 release with heaps of service packs and hotfixes to follow.

My opinion

VinnyBarb
 
I might not be a prolific or one of the best creators but I've enjoyed putting my 2 pen'orth up on the DLS. Now that 2.9 is definitely obsolete, I for one will not be supporting TS12 at any level. This includes updating any of my current assets to 3.7 whether by updating the build and uploading as TS12 only or making new ones.

End of my thoughts.
 
And thus, the fallout of content creators from trainz has begun. :/

This will only end in disaster. However, do I blame everyone? Nope. N3V reduced their audience range. But thats none of my business. This whole thing has me thinking.

b72807f9fda7bae0a51ff8cfbd9ac017.jpeg



However, I will continue to make content for build 2.9 and above. Cant speak for anyone else in The Erecting Hall. But as long as its 2.9 and not on the DLS then users can be relatively happy.


This is ALL a very bad move but again, I am simply an observer and get no say in the matter. Have a good day. :)
 
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