Discussion Regarding Image Editing

rickf77 said:

Well, I could go on for ever about how perfect that water looks to me......

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Probably because he "retouched" it.

ulmer94 said:

Quite a bit of "retouching" in this one...hope nobody minds.

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I actually do mind.

I will not vote for it and try to avoid voting for any "retouched" submission because I think this is a "screenshot" competition, not a "modified screenshot" competition. It is my opinion that it should show-off route building or the game, not image editing skills.
I personally think it should be made a rule that it is not allowed, as I think it will give people without image editing skills (yes, myself included) a more fair chance in this competition, but I fear I am alone in this.

No offence intended.

oknotsen said:

I will not vote for it and try to avoid voting for any "retouched" submission because I think this is a "screenshot" competition, not a "modified screenshot" competition. It is my opinion that it should show-off route building or the game, not image editing skills.
I personally think it should be made a rule that it is not allowed, as I think it will give people without image editing skills (yes, myself included) a more fair chance in this competition, but I fear I am alone in this.

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Agreed, Nicky please take notice.

Interesting point that has never been brought up before. I have seen pictures that looked even worse after editing with all sorts of overdone filters and cheesy effects and also ones that looked amazing with a gentle touch of color grading, for example. To outright deny all image manipulation may be a bit harsh I feel, especially since the tools and techniques to improve an image digitally are readily available on the internet and not a closed-off resource. Where we should draw the line between acceptable or not may be discussed though before anything is set in stone.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

I DO "crop" screenshots. I do this to get rid of the menus and such. I do the same with any nature photos. I mostly take photos of birds and I crop those hoping to get a closer view of them. I hate it when the wife starts "fixing" them. All I want is an image of the bird to prove it was here.

As long as we know it's been "doctored", I'm ok with it. I'm a real moron with all this fancy new computer age stuff...would it be possible for a person to submit a sort of before and after "split screen" kind of shot and still have it count as one photo for the contest?

Keep them coming, "doctored up" or not!

Cheers....Rick

nicky9499 said:

Interesting point that has never been brought up before. I have seen pictures that looked even worse after editing with all sorts of overdone filters and cheesy effects and also ones that looked amazing with a gentle touch of color grading, for example. To outright deny all image manipulation may be a bit harsh I feel, especially since the tools and techniques to improve an image digitally are readily available on the internet and not a closed-off resource. Where we should draw the line between acceptable or not may be discussed though before anything is set in stone.

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(Recognizing this should be now moved to a different thread)...

Although the tools are readily available to all, the skill set required is distinct from that required for modeling an integrated Trainz scene, as Oknotsen points out, and we get an embedded contest. If you had an allowable set of digital manipulations, as you suggest, I can see where it may become difficult to differentiate allowed vs disallowed processes by just looking at the final product -- consider the vast array of Photoshop processes which are designed to provide an unretouched look.

Another approach is the candidate classify their entry as retouched or unretouched and discrete votes for each be tallied.

I suggest looking at the original basis of the contest and seeing whether retouching falls within its original intent, if possible. --JMHO.

I agree with Deneban, this is quickly getting to "New Topic" time.... I have my thoughts on the issue, but I'll refrain from sharing them here in an effort to preserve this thread from being hijacked any further. Nicky, since you seem to be the reigning MC atm, can you please make a new thread? Putting it in the competitions Forum would make sense to me since this going to be an issue dealing with Competitions. Otherwise just post a link to wherever you put it. That way we can have a discussion on the issue.

Edited to add: For the time being, whatever comes out of the coming discussion, I propose that no photos, particularly those already submitted, though I would extend this to the entirety of THIS weeks competition, be subjected to any further scrutiny or otherwise pulled or denigrated, until this weeks competition has closed. Changing the rules mid competition, even for an area otherwise unspecified is unfair to the current participants. Let any modifications or requirements coming out of the future discussion happen there, in the future.

Falcus

As per requests; the recent discussion regarding image editing has been consolidated and can be picked up from here.

Cheerio,
Nicholas

I say cropping and adding borders should be allowed, and to some extent even filters (More for setting time period though, as in Black & White, Sepia, or color). I do not necessarily think the screenshots with excessive editing are fair, however I do vote for them because they always turn out to be the best, just my (incomplete sounding) $0.02

I am fairly new to the contest, and so I ask as a newcomer the logical pertinent first question: Is the original intent of the contest to select the best screenshot taken directly from Trainz or is the original intent to present an optimized graphic using a Trainz screenshot as a starting point?

To me, the term "screenshot" in the contest name sounds like the original intent was simply an unretouched trainz screenshot; else it would contain the term "image" (e.g. "Trainz image of the week").

hey guys I have an idea

no really its good

you ready?

Look at the screenshots and vote for whichever one you want!

wow! that was hard! You actually had to vote without telling us a 5 paragraph essay about why you wont or will vote for a certain screenshot!!

My thoughts on this are: adding a frame or cropping the screenshot is not an issue.
However, tarting up a screenshot in a 3rd party program by editing for sharpness, smoothness, clarity, brightness and enhancing the colours is not an honest representative of the original scene.
I usually vote on the effort that has been put into creating the scene, originality, atmosphere, to some extent the position of where the screen shot is taken and not necessarily how "pretty" the screenshot is.

deneban said:

Although the tools are readily available to all, the skill set required is distinct from that required for modeling an integrated Trainz scene

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I've seen unedited screenshots here that are better than other unedited screenshots. It would appear to me that the better screenshot was posted by someone with better skills and knowledge in angles and lighting in trainz etc. (not 100% sure how it works) Why is this a "fair" advantage yet using other skills and knowledge in a program such as, photoshop, is unfair?

John512 said:

I've seen unedited screenshots here that are better than other unedited screenshots. It would appear to me that the better screenshot was posted by someone with better skills and knowledge in angles and lighting in trainz etc. (not 100% sure how it works) Why is this a "fair" advantage yet using other skills and knowledge in a program such as, photoshop, is unfair?

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As the name tells us, the contest's root basis is to award good Trainz skills, not Photoshop (or image manipulation program) skills. If it were intended to recognize image manipulation skills, it would be named "Trainz Image of the Week" rather than "Screenshot of the Week."

ATSF854 said:

Look at the screenshots and vote for whichever one you want! wow! that was hard! You actually had to vote without telling us a 5 paragraph essay about why you wont or will vote for a certain screenshot!!

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The voting is not the problem, it is the entry criteria.

It is my opinion that it should show-off route building or the game, not image editing skills.

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Agree with the above.

To me, the term "screenshot" in the contest name sounds like the original intent was simply an unretouched trainz screenshot; else it would contain the term "image" (e.g. "Trainz image of the week").

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Exactly...............

However, would banning any manipulation actually have made much difference to the results? I suspect probably not.

The Discussion is unnecessary for me. I give my vote for a good Picture, edited or not. It's all the same for me.

Greetings
Epo

Epoche3bis4 said:

I give my vote for a good Picture, edited or not.

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Couldn't have been put more eloquently.

+1

I feel like this discussion wasn't much of an issue until recently... And I can tell you for sure there were plenty of "re-touched" screenshots before now. A screenshot is a screenshot, what a user wants to do with it is what they want to do with it. I feel that unless they specifically mess with the image itself in a 3rd party program, such as covering things, adding images, or renders, etc. that actually change the content within the shot, it's fair game. Honestly, even if things like SHARPENING (Come on, that's honestly something anyone can do, there are free websites online specifically for it...) and in my case, I ALWAYS sharpen my images (some may look better than others sharpened) but it's because I don't have the best hardware, and I use the sharpening to give the image clarity. Should we start excluding people with better hardware because they get better looking shots with better content/higher draw distance/etc.

Also, regarding the original image poster, it looks, slightly edited. "Re-touched" if you will. Nothing looks added to the shot, the water looks like an asset in-game, not something added in photoshop...

A screenshot is a screenshot, I don't think the word is intended to mean anything other than that. Editing doesn't make a screenshot something else. And editing DOESN'T give anyone an unfair advantage, I've seen heavily edited shots get no attention, and non-edited shots get a lot of attention (Not directed at anyone in particular).

To sum it up, I think edited images are fine with color editing, sharpening (again, this is almost necessary in some cases), contrast, etc. But if anything is actually tampered with regarding the content of the photo, I don't think that's a fair thing to allow.

Of course, this is my opinion, as is the other posts. I mean no offence to anyone. (Though I do feel it's a bit silly)

Then again, how do you propose to enforce these rules? How do you KNOW when a photo has been edited? If I take a photo, and sharpen it, are people going to know immediately? Same with color editing? I'm curious how this could even be enforced outside obvious edits.

Again, no offence meant to anyone, just my 2 cents in the conversation.



Edit: caught Epoche3bis4's post above, and agree as well.

I first participated in the screenshot contest back in 2008 and photoshopping was generally a matter of personal taste. If you think an entry is over-processed and don't like it...don't vote for it. I don't think it gives an unfair advantage. In fact, I've always thought that it often loses more votes than it gains.

Now...here's my real two-cents. I think the main strength of the Trainz program has always been in the amount of creative freedom it gives the end-user, unlike other rail sims. That creativity seems to be more restricted with each new version. I, for one, don't want to add to that by making more rules governing what we can and cannot do.

Cheers,
Fred

I think most of the objections come from the idea of making the quantity of Trainz in a given shot less then 100%. Aside from sharpening, its not really that hard to spot alot of editing techniques if you know what you're looking for. I personally agree with what most here have said: IE, Sharpening, Films, Borders, Crops, w/e else are fine. Color shifting is fine (Nothing beats that old B&W 8MM feel sometimes ya know?). But when you're changing out landscape and what not that goes a bit too far.

After that, why not add them as themes? Say one week do a "Photoshop Feature", or another week a "Straight Shoot"? The latter would still have to include certain of the afore mentioned techniques because policing it would be far too difficult, but as long as people that want to go nuts with Photoshop and make their Daylight run on the Moon or Mars with Genuine Shots from Rovers/Landers/Missions, have a place for it, thats fine by me.

Last week there were only 10 submissions, this week theres been like 18 and we still have a day left? So obviously the themes aren't made to be all inclusive, so why not have a photoshop competition in the near future or something (Not next week, let things die down and see how many would be interested in that sort of thing)?

Falcus