N3V Needs to support pre-SP1 users with DLC
- Thread starter nathanmallard
- Start date
KingConrail76
New member
I agree with you, civility is the best approach, but I guess I missed something, or see things differently...
...I have not seen any incivility on this thread in the past day.
All I can say is I am pretty much done with Trainz 2012 after SP1 screwed up so much of my route that I had worked on for over 18 months. truly can not be bothered to even bother any more with Trainz in its pathetic state. With Forced upgrading to use your addon content I am not overly impressed.
I am tinkering in Trainz 2012 pre SP1 but nothing now that will see the light of day on the DLS etc. Just some personal fun things for my kids and I. My route I was hoping to release this year is now on permanent hold with probably no chance of release whilst Trainz 2012 is in its SP1+ condition.
Makes it very hard for myself and a few local friends that use Trainz to consider looking at the next future releases of DLC and or Trainz due to how things are being handled by N3V.
Very dissapointed myself.
I am tinkering in Trainz 2012 pre SP1 but nothing now that will see the light of day on the DLS etc. Just some personal fun things for my kids and I. My route I was hoping to release this year is now on permanent hold with probably no chance of release whilst Trainz 2012 is in its SP1+ condition.
Makes it very hard for myself and a few local friends that use Trainz to consider looking at the next future releases of DLC and or Trainz due to how things are being handled by N3V.
Very dissapointed myself.
That would be Mr Nels Anderson; probably the highest level of dedication to any hobby. Keep in mind it's not only Trainsim forum and file library, he also own an equally massive (if not bigger) Flightsim forum and file library as well.
I've had the pleasure of participating in both.
Hi John,
It seems we're playing nice for now, as far as I can discern.
Tanvaras cant you still upload your route in pre SP1 mode?
They haven't done a 2004 2006 treatment of stopping uploads yet.
There would still be plenty of members who would download it and get the enjoyment you intended.
As I said before, Philskene uploads his routes in both forms because he must believe there are enough of us "diehards" around to enjoy his work.
Chhers,
Mike
They haven't done a 2004 2006 treatment of stopping uploads yet.
There would still be plenty of members who would download it and get the enjoyment you intended.
As I said before, Philskene uploads his routes in both forms because he must believe there are enough of us "diehards" around to enjoy his work.
Chhers,
Mike
MegaByte69
Member
Please explain what this unneeded copy protection is ? I do not see any copy protection in any of the Trainz software to date.
I agree with you, civility is the best approach, but I guess I missed something, or see things differently...
...I have not seen any incivility on this thread in the past day.
It goes through spurts. There were a couple of threads above you.
Hi Nicky,
It does appear people are playing nice again.
Now back to topic...
We can agree that N3V went around the SP1 thing the wrong way.
We can agree that the new DRM thing has been implemented incorrectly and in the typical N3V/Auran fashion.
We've seen people spit and spat over this and claim that few people have upgraded to SP1 due to the bugs.
We've also heard from people who won't upgrade, and say that the SP1 is bad, but have never upgraded in the first place to see if it actually works. It's like saying that some food is gross without even tasting it then going around and telling everyone not to eat it.
The problem is we really don't know how many people have not upgraded and how many have. The forums are only a smidge of the user population which has been stated a few times now, and the people that usually frequent the forums and say anything about it are the ones having problems. As one who did an early upgrade to SP1, I can say it's not as bad as people make it out to be, especially after the hot fixes. Yes, I did fix some assets, and yes Murchison is messed up. The Murchison mess is something that N3V is trying to resolve, and much of the problems are due to the older content used in the route which was meant for an older environment in the first place. Any asset fixes I've done, were pretty easy and took a day or two. Not that bad considering I have close to 10 years of downloads on my system. I have had crashes, and other oddities, but I also report the problems to the helpdesk and work with them to resolve the problems. Heck, I was the one that reported the merge issue with the original TS12. This was a major feature breaker and would actually crash the program. Now this major component actually works without a hitch and has other little tweaks in it. Speaking of tweaks, has anyone seen the new road straightening tool? Probably not if you haven't upgraded. This wanted feature has finally appeared in Surveyor with SP1.
Mr. Windwalkr even said they are listening to the community and hopefully they can work with the DRM issue so it isn't as half baked as it is now. At least we can run Trainz offline even with the DRM-controlled downloads. This is unlike the games and programs that are controlled by the cloud - think EA Games and SimCity, and Adobe and their new Creative Suite. These both require a connection in order to load and run. Without the net, nothing runs. Period. This I think is worse.
As far as backdating software, this will never happen. Even the biggest companies will make future versions compatible, meaning the new version will read the old, and in most cases run the older stuff flawlessly, but making the new stuff work in an older environment is impossible. This due to the changes that have been implemented in the program its self. The other issue too is what we see on the surface is usually a tiny sub-segment of what may have been done to the program code to bring out the updates. The cosmetic things, such as graphics improvements, interface changes, and what not are the things that catch the users' eye. The other stuff is hidden from view and adds to the overall upgrade.
John
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As far as my Sydney To Gosford route goes TS12 Service Pack 1 build 58414 runs flawlessly including a 1 million poly count Sydney Harbour Bridge included in the route, but i can understand how others feel about it, at first i did as well and carried on like a bi-ch about it, i now have TS12 updated on all my computers and i would not have installed updates if i thought it was not running right.
cameronjames
Member
the speed of dark is the speed of light, because dark is just another variation of light.
captainkman
You are reading this.
You sir, are correct, except for one point. Dark is simply the absence of light.
Kieran.
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disregard........
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FYI, this isn't correct. Adobe subscription software including the Creative Suite only needs to phone home once every thirty days. Of course, if you are not online you will miss the updates until you go online.
William
Good to know. The thing is as you said if you're not online it still won't work though because it hasn't been verified.
The thing is DRM isn't new, it's just worse than it used to be because it relies on a connection to a supposed to be on forever-running server. Software companies expect people to upgrade annually rather than use something for many years, perhaps decades at a time. For corporate users this is a non-issue as most companies upgrade their workstations (generic for PCs and Macs here) at periodic intervals, and usually purchase huge software licensing agreements with the publishers who guarantee support and upgrades for the periods set forth in agreements. The software is sold at various fairly low priced per-seat costs, and the developer makes a huge profit on the upgrades and support end rather than the initial purchase.
The problem is this model doesn't work well with consumers. Consumers for one don't have the buying power or the infrastructure to support a corporate-like licensing scheme with its guaranteed periodic forced upgrades and the steady stream of income that the corporations provide to the developers. Consumers usually purchase software the way they purchase other electronics and goods. This is a one-off purchase and for them a game or program is like purchasing a book that they will use when and as they wish. This breaks the corporate-like software licensing because the software is neither in use all the time nor is it upgraded often. There is no steady stream of income coming back to the developers and publishers.
To get around this, they've enforced the DRM as this will force the consumer to upgrade as well. Just think about this for a minute... We purchase something from Adobe and use it for years. Heck, I used PageMaker 6.0 for many, many years for various desktop publishing projects. I installed and used it on various machines as the time went along and it still sits on my bookshelf. Under the new scheme, with the online licensing, this is a no go. Adobe could, if they still sold and supported PageMaker, could pull the plug on that version, and force an upgrade to the new one. To be honest and in my opinion, this is more of the reason for DRM no matter who the developer or publisher is. It's not about piracy like it used to be; it's about a steady income stream from the end user community. If it was all about piracy, companies would still be providing dongles and activation codes along with installation serial numbers like they did in the past.
John
jacksonbarno
Alco Spoken Here
Then why should DRM be put into Trainz? For N3V, to keep a steady income, they could produce and sell DLC like they used to, with a serial number and a download. The fact is that most people when faced with the DRM issue are forced into the program because there is no alternative. There are multiple alternatives to Trainz, such as MSTS or RW. There aren't really any alternatives to Adobe or similar companies, and because of this, they can force DRM and the like on people and they have nowhere else to go. This and the fact that there are still many users who are being effectively cut off from DLC makes this entire affair a bit worrying. For those who say that N3V can't make DLC compatible with older versions because of backdating issues, SP1 isn't a new game, it's a patch. Content can still be made compatible with older versions, and the majority of the time, content CAN be made compatible with the change of the build number (Which you can't change in the most recent DLC because it is locked). My point is that N3V is trying to force people to upgrade and in doing this they are going downhill fast.
If N3V goes under, all of the DLC under the new DRM policy will disappear, along with the money that people invested in it. That's a bit scary.
My 2¢
If N3V goes under, all of the DLC under the new DRM policy will disappear, along with the money that people invested in it. That's a bit scary.
My 2¢
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It's not even the money, either - it's the time and effort we put into building our content and our routes. I probably have about 1,500 hours into my SEPTA route between the route itself and the custom content I've made for it. All would be gone under the DRM system that has already been proposed for T:ANE/T2* should N3V go out of business, should they decide they don't want to support a particular version anymore (or the franchise itself), should another server outage occur, and so on. There are lots of folks here who've been working out routes for 5, 6, 7 or more years.
*For those not familiar, N3V has already stated that a full-game DRM system would be implemented with the Digital Download edition of the game, not just DLC. Boxed editions currently will not use the new DRM system for the game itself, but will retain it for DLC as in current versions of TS12 today.
Lots_Trains
TS2010 User
Boxed editions currently will not use the new DRM
N3V have stated this quite clearly, I can't see the issue any more, the heat has gone out of this now. 5, 6, 7 years of will not go down the drain Boxed version will always work when N3V are no longer with us.
DLC content is another issue altogether which is easily solved don't buy it.
Cheers
Lots
N3V have stated this quite clearly, I can't see the issue any more, the heat has gone out of this now. 5, 6, 7 years of will not go down the drain Boxed version will always work when N3V are no longer with us.
DLC content is another issue altogether which is easily solved don't buy it.
Cheers
Lots
jacksonbarno
Alco Spoken Here
It isn't as black and white as that. Many people don't have access to the boxed version, and the people who do will still be at risk.
cascaderailroad
New member
But wouldn't using boxed versions, (that you do buy DLC payware for), will use DRM on the DLC assets ... and wouldn't that DLC DRM possibly (when you add payware DRM DLC to your Trainz installation) wouldn't that make your entire Trainz installation ruled by DRM ?
The only thing that enticed me to buy the TS12 boxed version was the NKP Berkshire DLC, which has DRM
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Yes, DLC will be DRMed no matter what.
In theory, it shouldn't, but the recent outage suggests perhaps it does. Now it's starting to make sense that N3V offered an option with the boxed version of T:ANE/T2 to totally disable DRM (which will outright prevent DLC from working, even if it is within its authorization allowance period.)
