Appalled and Dismayed

nathanmallard

Active member
With countless bugs, and obsessive error checking which basically breaks content which works fine, it's no wonder very little of us in the Trainz community has (or has any desire to get) TS12 SP1. Now I'm not insulting SP1 users here, but I feel we TS2010 and TS2012 v1 users are bit left out. So I was horrified when somebody claimed that all future N3V DLC would be released via SP1's DRM system, effectivly excluding 60% of N3V's customer base. He/She wasn't an N3V employee so I can't be sure, but he is a payware developer so chances are he has been in contact with them. There's nothing stopping N3V from releasing a free-to-download TS2010 SP3 and up version like with the Aerotrain and other previous releases, but this looks like a clever way to force users to buy TS12 and upgrade it to SP1 by stopping them from buying N3V addon packs. Sorry N3V, but this is so exclusionary and wrong...
(BTW, if a mod confirms that this is not true, I will delete this post.)
 
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If N3V chose to exclude 60% of their user base (and I can't imagine where that figure came from) then that is their problem. I have no idea if TS12 SP1 will be needed for future payware DLC and if I or anybody else did know then they wouldn't be allowed to tell you. Personally I couldn't care less as TS12 SP1 works fine for me and many others and people who refuse to upgrade mostly based on hearsay are missing out on the best version so far (IMHO) then that's their choice though and also fine by me.

Paul
 
I respect your opinion Paul, and perfectly fine with you thinking that it's the best version ever. However, some want to keep compatibility with older content, and I don't think that segment of the community is being recognised by N3V.
 
@paul
This bears a resemblance to the NIMBY attitude. It works for you, great. But it is not working for other people. And quite alot, if you've observed. Surely the many threads asking how to solve problems created by SP1 are more than just "hearsay"? Or have you conveniently missed those? It's not just the recent SP1 either, Auran has had a bad habit of having issues with past service packs as well, so I wouldn't be so quick to blame people for being a little cautious and sitting on the sidelines until all is ironed out.
 
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@paul
This bears a resemblance to the NIMBY attitude. It works for you, great. But it is not working for other people. And quite alot, if you've observed. Surely the many threads asking how to solve problems created by SP1 are more than just "hearsay"? Or have you conveniently missed those? It's not just the recent SP1 either, Auran has had a bad habit of having issues with past service packs as well, so I wouldn't be so quick to blame people for being a little cautious and sitting on the sidelines until all is ironed out.

No its not NIMBY at all. There are errors in some assets that will get corrected over time, I agree with Paul TS12 SP1 works fine, there are some issues with incorrectly made assets but as I mentioned before they can be expected to be either repaired by the original content creator, including Paul, or by the community over time.

N3V's method of updating their payware by having it download when you start Trainz up isn't the most user friendly in the world but once the content has been updated life is fine.

Cheerio John
 
I'm not a NIMBY, I just find N3V's attitude a bit cynical. Remember the "errors" that were introduced with SP1 weren't errors at all in TS2010, and the content effected by SP1 works fine without any detriment to performance. Patches and updates are meant to fix content errors, not make more!
 
I think N3V was premature in making any announcements / changes that forces the use of SP1's built in DLC downloading - they should have operated the old and new delivery systems side by side until they were sure SP1 was A-OK before dropping the old delivery method.

That said, it's not unreasonable, and quite customary, for a software company to insist you update to the latest build of what ever version you have. So, I am not surprised that Pre-SP1 users are going to be left out in the cold.

At the same time, anything that WAS available for TS10, should remain so either by continuing to delivery via the old system, or perhaps some sort of application that would be seperate from TS10 and allow DLC access.

I try to be supportive, but there are some things that have been handled very stupidly. Like it would do a lot for the audience if they would explain WHY things that used to be OK now result in an ERROR. In the absence of a reason many are inclined to assume there's evil intentions behind it.
 
Nathan,

I agree with the others here. The errors you see in TS12 SP1 were always there. The strict error checking only points out these errors so that the program will run efficiently by preventing the faulty content from loading. Once the errors are resolved, the content will load and run fine. This isn't to say that the implementation of the patch wasn't the best. Had there been better communication on N3V's part, I'm sure we would have been more prepared for what was in store for us. Being a small company, and being that the patch came from the developers, this makes communication somewhat poor. This has been discussed many times in the forum, and hopefully (wishful thinking) that the developers would tell us something ahead of time and with full documentation to boot!

Operationally, TS12 with the two hotfixes is not so bad. I find the graphics load faster on both my laptop and desktop and the other niceties within the program are really nice additions.

The community, as well as N3V, is in the process of repairing older content and bringing it up to the current error-free standards. This has been an ongoing process as mentioned before.

Now the delivery process used for payware has never bothered me. I see it as a unification of the platform, making things easier for all users to manage their purchased download content. So having said this, how does this change anything? Going forward, yes, for new versions, but for those still on TS2009 and TS2010 should still receive their content the old fashioned way.

John
 
I don't think N3V have evil intentions, I just think some of the errors are a bit silly. For example, the "Uniform Textures" error. Why? What horrible things will it do to game performance? Nothing. So then you have to go through the 200+ items that have this error to fix them. I appreciate N3V's efforts to make everything on the DLS error free, but I don't really think those errors should be there in the first place. I'm not selfish or a NIMBY, I'm just concerned for the future of this hobby. As for the DLC/SP1 issue, I'll leave it until an N3V employee can confirm or deny it as I don't believe it's true. I might have to get TS2012 sometime as I don't actually have it yet, so I can see if it's really as bad as I make it out to be...
 
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There are some "errors" that were never true "errors" in the old days. The aforementioned texture warning is one. Reusing the same mesh for multiple LODs is another. Making those into errors is a really, really bad idea, and will simply encourage others to skirt their checking schemes at the expense of performance. This is an example of how strictness of rules can and often is very counterproductive.

That said, the "rules" as they exist now aren't that complicated. Maybe I began content creation later than some, but the changes are not at all difficult to comply with.
 
I have a different similar dilemma. I bought TS2010 from Games for Windows Marketplace, no way to update build 43361 for whatever reason. I got it because it was $9.99, and had all the stuff for TUME's route, and other stuff. Kind of sucks though, cannot really do much else with it. It does work on my Windows 8 laptop, locking up or crashing once in a great while. So, needless to say, it is a problem.

Paul
 
For example, the "Uniform Textures" error. Why? What horrible things will it do to game performance? Nothing. So then you have to go through the 200+ items that have this error to fix them.
Actually, this will do horrible things to the performance if the asset is showing an error.

The error shows when you have A) a single 'block of colour' (uniform colour) texture and B) a large texture.

Since the texture is a single block of colour, it does not need to be big (you only need 1 pixel to show a uniform colour, so why have a 512*512 texture for it, which wastes resources and hence impacts on performance...).

You'll get a warning on most assets, but it will appear as an error on others in specific cases. At no point have we recommended textures like this.

This error checking is already in place on the DLS, so new uploads will not show these errors. We've also run the DLS clean up again, and as such the remaining content should be fixed over the coming months. We also repaired a large number of commonly used assets when SP1 was released.


As to the DLC's, any released via our website in future will be made available via the new DLC system. At this stage, we plan for the content to be released only via the DLC system.

We will not be releasing any further DLC packs in the 'exe' format (aka, official DLC packs), as this system is not compatible with SP1, and has a number of limitations that the new DLC system avoids.

We may accommodate 3rd party creators if they wish to release their content via cdp for earlier versions, however this would be up to the creator to discuss with us. This doesn't mean we will, just that we may look into it if the creator requests it.

As to the issues experienced with TS12 SP1, the main remaining issue is the performance issues that some (but not all!) users are seeing. Which we are working on. As we've stated, our team has been unable to reliably reproduce this performance issue in TS12 SP1; which means that it is taking longer than the other issues to resolve...

Regards
 
There are some "errors" that were never true "errors" in the old days. The aforementioned texture warning is one. Reusing the same mesh for multiple LODs is another. Making those into errors is a really, really bad idea, and will simply encourage others to skirt their checking schemes at the expense of performance.

oh you mean it will cause them to do something silly to reach their desired end at the expense of performance... like they already did?

i am sure if they find other ways to be totally careless with content creation then N3V will just find more ways to introduce checking against it. in the end, doing it correct is the only way to avoid a problem.
 
With countless bugs, and obsessive error checking which basically breaks content which works fine, it's no wonder very little of us in the Trainz community has (or has any desire to get) TS12 SP1. Now I'm not insulting SP1 users here, but I feel we TS2010 and TS2012 v1 users are bit left out. So I was horrified when somebody claimed that all future N3V DLC would be released via SP1's DRM system, effectivly excluding 60% of N3V's customer base. He/She wasn't an N3V employee so I can't be sure, but he is a payware developer so chances are he has been in contact with them. There's nothing stopping N3V from releasing a free-to-download TS2010 SP3 and up version like with the Aerotrain and other previous releases, but this looks like a clever way to force users to buy TS12 and upgrade it to SP1 by stopping them from buying N3V addon packs. Sorry N3V, but this is so exclusionary and wrong...
(BTW, if a mod confirms that this is not true, I will delete this post.)

I'm not clear. Do you have TS12 or not?
 
Hi People,
I have just read through the post above and I think that N3V have let us user down, come on if the error are there from the start then why are they still there. here is another thing why have they brought out dlc, when they have not fix the dls. It seem a bit weird to me that they bring DLC, and yet the number of post of problem with error & missing dependencies are getting longer. and when user go looking for and trying to find kuid, they can not find them.
 
that's an unrelated issue. That's to do with people not uploading their assets to the DLS.
 
@amigacooke; Good show!! I love the use of Yes Minister, reminds me awfully of home in Oxford, just comming from London.

The foreign sectetery must know about this issue....

With Regards

A Brit, A Long Way From Home [Michael Gitsham]
 
I was wondering if someone made one of those Hitler rant videos about Trainz and sure enough, someone did. I won't link to it, but if you haven't seen it, it is easy to find on youtube.
 
oh you mean it will cause them to do something silly to reach their desired end at the expense of performance... like they already did?

i am sure if they find other ways to be totally careless with content creation then N3V will just find more ways to introduce checking against it. in the end, doing it correct is the only way to avoid a problem.

Hmm, maybe one-size-fits-all approaches don't work for every single case? Gee, that's a shocker...

Sometimes, thinks are better made a warning/advisory rather than completely breaking content. Especially when the "rulebook" never said that a particular method of content creation would later become invalid.
 
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