TS12 wireframe grid lines

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steamboateng

New member
I know we TransDEM users are a minority in the Trainz community. But N3V has raised one issue which detracts from this fine program. Ever since its initial release, TS12 wireframe grid lines have interfered with viewing underlying UTM tiles. This was not an issue in TS10.
The TS12 grid lines are too wide and too white. Is there a cure? I would prefer an option for thin black or gray lines in wireframe mode. And why show 5m grid lines on a 10m trainz map?
Since N3V is fixing up bugs and issues with Ts12, why not fix this issue now?
 
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Hi

I have to agree about this. I'm working on a route and am continually running into this problem with the UTM tiles. It may be related to the depth of the tile below ground level as I accidentally grabbed a tile that was invisible when raising another object and as I lifted it the tile came into view. As you say, when you zoom out the tile comes into view but is then largely masked by the grid lines.

Regards

Brian
 
steamboateng said:
C'mon Shane Turner, pipe in. We want you to give N3V a nudge on this issue, it's been around too long!
Click to expand...


i do know of the problem you are experiencing and understand it can be frustrating, but Shane doesn't work for N3V. he will not increase your chances of being heard by them. have you tried contacting them in any way?
 
I know Shane doesn't work for N3V, but he's been a good 'go to' guy for bringing TS12 issues to their collective attention. I brought up this same point about a year ago on these forums. I have recently contacted 'geophil' regarding this matter to see if we can get some action on this issue.
Me! Contact N3V; HA! First I wouldn't know who to contact, and second, I don't really expect them to respond to this lonely old voice in the wilderness!
However, if all us TransDEM owners got together and started knocking on their windowpane, we may get some response.
 
Strangely from a programmers standpoint this shouldn't be so difficult to implement. I wonder if N3V really understand how welcome such a change could be for budding content, read route creators. I would hit that helpdesk again and start a thread about this in the Suggestions section here. Those seem the only path's available that could result in some form of awareness of this problem.

Greetings from nighttime Amsterdam,

Jan
 
Good Morning All
Thank you for reporting this to us.

I would suggest adding this to the suggestions boxcar forum, for the request for different grid types.

In regards to the grid blocking out the 'tiles', could someone please supply a screenshot of what this looks like in TS12 and TS2010? It should be noted that we don't actually support the use of external software to create maps (e.g. TransDEM). However, if this issue effects tiles/objects that you create yourself in 3DSMax (for example), then it may be able to be looked into.

Regards
 
Zec, I have tried twice yesterday to get this issue posted in the 'Suggestions' Forums. After over 12 hours neither attempt has been posted!
The wireframe grid issue has been around since TS12 was released and the several attempts by me and other Trainzers to have N3V address the problem has been ignored; a frustrating situation, since TS12 supports a UTM Layer. The UTM Layer functions as a place to install UTM objects as tiles, in a Trainz map. A UTM tile, by definition is a georeferenced map object. UTM tiles could be placed above or below the wireframe grid. Prior to TS12, and including TS10, there was no issue with the wireframe grid obscuring the view of UTM tiles below the grid. Here is a screenie of the problem:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh557/steamboateng/UTMtileobscura.jpg
I don't have TS10 installed, so perhaps another Trainzer with can offer up a screenie of TS10 showing how the UTM tiles are observable below the grid.
 
Mike, I'm afraid the UTM layer is created by TransDEM.

As norfolksouthern37 has said, the broad grid lines of TS12 wire frame mode affect every object which is moved below the surface. That includes the classic basemaps, which are around much longer than TransDEM. Basically, these are flat texture carrier objects which hover above or more often below the ground. They are used for topo maps or aerial images and exist as 720m or 1000m incarnations. I have also seen one variant of nine 240m tiles per object to cover the area of one baseboard.
 
Geophil, are you saying that I, among others, are merely jousting with windmills here? You must have had some arrangement with N3V to create that UTM file in Trainz.
With all due respect, I find both you and N3V to be totally ambivalent to the issue; if not actually obscuring it.
In a practical sense, UTM objects is a dead issue, with no usefulness in a TS12 Trainz map, whatsoever.
At the least you could have included a note in your program revisions, that TransDEM has an issue with wireframe grid lines in TS12, and prevented this senseless journey into a subject which no one will address.
As a dedicated TransDEM user, I feel somewhat betrayed on the issue.
 
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TS2010 introduced layers for the first time. As a route builder you can define your own custom layers in Surveyor. TransDEM does the same. It defines a UTM layer and a vector layer. Auran/N3V just provides the layer platform here but not the custom layers themselves.

UTM tiles in TransDEM have a long history. Several people had the same idea long before TransDEM. The well known "Base Maps" were invented with the British Ordnance Survey 1000 m map grid in mind. In Germany one particular route builder contemplated a similar concept for the UTM map grid without knowing of the English "base maps". It was called "UTM tool" at first, but was a simple Trainz object, with no software attached, just like the Base Maps.

Here is an excerpt from the TransDEM manual:
Jorgen Brandsborg (Yojimbo) created a standard 3D content object named UTM01 for Trainz with a quadratic planar surface of 1000 x 1000 m. This object accepts a map as a texture. If such a texture is chosen as an accurate 1000 x 1000 m clipping, aligned with the UTM grid it can serve as a helpful template for route building. The object is called a UTM object and also a UTM tile.
For TransDEM Yojimbo slightly modified this object and named it UTM02. By courtesy of Yojimbo the UTM02 object became part of the TransDEM package.
A completely new object was kindly created by Curtis Reid (Pencil42) for TransDEM 2.1 and provided both as a 1000 and a 500 m tile. The new object does not use a separate texture for side and bottom any more, thus improving performance. This new template is named UTM03 and replaces the UTM02 object. The 500m tile variant is handier in mountainous terrain and also allows for higher total texture the resolution.
Click to expand...

In the first release of TransDEM Trainz Edition, UTM tiles were created and filled by TransDEM, but placing them into the route was still left to the user. Automatic placement came later, with TransDEM version 1.2, I think.

TransDEM UTM tiles, the original "UTM tool", "Base Maps", and also MapMaker, which used 720 m tiles, all relied on the wireframe mode in Surveyor.
 
steamboateng said:
Geophil, are you saying that I, among others, are merely jousting with windmills here? You must have had some arrangement with N3V to create that UTM file in Trainz.
With all due respect, I find both you and N3V to be totally ambivalent to the issue; if not actually obscuring it.
In a practical sense, UTM objects is a dead issue, with no usefulness in a TS12 Trainz map, whatsoever.
At the least you could have included a note in your program revisions, that TransDEM has an issue with wireframe grid lines in TS12, and prevented this senseless journey into a subject which no one will address.
As a dedicated TransDEM user, I feel somewhat betrayed on the issue.
Click to expand...

i think that maybe you misunderstand the situation. it is not a fault of any of the objects, but a result of the way the alpha transparencies are handled in TS12 and the texture level of detail on the grid image. i would suspect the same issues would have occurred in the previous version's native modes (but i have no first hand experience here). the grid.tga file is only 64x64 and uses a blended alpha that gets filtered as you move away, creating holes in the map tile or anything else behind the grid.
 
Could we substitute the built-in Grid asset with a custom object? I think it's kuid:-1:6270. My TransDEM ground textures seem not be used when switching to wireframe. Mine are 128 x 128 and don't have the 5 m grid lines.
 
the wireframe grid uses a different texture (kuid:407571:1003) but yes you can replace it by obsoleting it.

c40615908da95a3e83a50840e971c252.jpg


it gets a little coarse because the mips were disabled but it doesn't cause the mipped alphas to put holes in the tile object


i personally prefer one like this:

d818cbba877211a8156b4f56772c9425.jpg
 
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I see my post finally made it into the 'Suggestion Boxcar' Forum. I'm pleased with that, but what becomes of it we will see.
I know the fault doesn't lie with any under grid object. What I misunderstood was that TransDEM generates a UTM layer, despite the fact that I have no UTM objects in my route(s). I thought TS12 was doing that. Having cleared that up, let's move on.
Zec Murphy makes a distinction about WHAT objects are being obscured, when the objects, no matter from whence they were generated, are clearly NOT THE ISSUE.
The wireframe grid is!
 
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