In an idle wander I found this today http://www.railway-technical.com/st-vs-de.shtml I think Mr. Krug needs no introduction. There is also a lot to the site.
Bernie
Bernie
Diesel v. Steam; New controversy for those who love to argue
- Thread starter bl4882
- Start date
You won't get any argument from me..Even though I'm a steam person..I know better than that..Electric or Diesel always will have adhesion better then steam..Thats one reason I would like to see more electric units used because of the benefits it has..Mainly the pollution..HSR,Trams etc..
jjanmarine3
Active member
To me the argument will always remain that development of steam traction and steam power was stopped when other traction was pursued .
Should this not have been the case, where would we have been today ?
There was political interference involved as well , which brings another point to the fore, and that is whether it was the right thing to do to stop the continued development of steam.
2/3 of the earth consists of water , which is being polluted by the very resources used for diesel and other traction.
All the negatives regarding steam traction would have been addressed by technology , which is still being done today on the quiet anyway, one of the reasons being shortage of oil.
It all boils down to the use of carbon.
Should this not have been the case, where would we have been today ?
There was political interference involved as well , which brings another point to the fore, and that is whether it was the right thing to do to stop the continued development of steam.
2/3 of the earth consists of water , which is being polluted by the very resources used for diesel and other traction.
All the negatives regarding steam traction would have been addressed by technology , which is still being done today on the quiet anyway, one of the reasons being shortage of oil.
It all boils down to the use of carbon.
simulatortrain
jointed freaking rails
Steam turbines. MU them. It's not so hard.
I just read a very interesting Article..Concerning about how we now have 400.03 PPM (parts per Million) Carbon Monoxide in Our Air..This is a record for modern times..Green House Gas effect. This is the highest it has been in 800,000 years..And the reason they know through analysis they have discovered it happened 800,000 years ago..It is caused by burning oil, Gas and coal (fossil Fuels)..Do not know End Results..So what do you think about Electric Rail Now??It looks like to me, we better do it or suffer the consequences..
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Hi Bob and Everybody.
Bob, even if the world railways where to return to steam tomorrow you would still have to put heat in those boilers through the use of coal, oil or stored butane gas. All are fossil fuels and therefore the pollution effects would be the same as using diesel now.
In fact the pollution may be increased as steam has to be continuously kept up even when the engine is parked for short/medium periods whereas diesel or electric can just be switched off.
Steam will never return to any of the world railways where it has been eliminated due to economic cost and employee safety issues. It is a pipe dream held by many on this forum that will never happen.
Bill
Bob, even if the world railways where to return to steam tomorrow you would still have to put heat in those boilers through the use of coal, oil or stored butane gas. All are fossil fuels and therefore the pollution effects would be the same as using diesel now.
In fact the pollution may be increased as steam has to be continuously kept up even when the engine is parked for short/medium periods whereas diesel or electric can just be switched off.
Steam will never return to any of the world railways where it has been eliminated due to economic cost and employee safety issues. It is a pipe dream held by many on this forum that will never happen.
Bill
So, is generating the heat from a hydrogen fuel cell completely out of the question?
Paul
How are they going to generate the electricity? I guess solar and wind, geothermal, all work, but how about hydrogen fuel cells? Somewhere, you have to have something create the electricity, be it green environment friendly stuff I mentioned, or fuel powered generators.
While I'm heavily in favor of the US moving towards environmentally friendly and sustainable energy it is not realistic to imagine a 100% electrified rail network. Consider that nations like Britain and Germany have been electrifying networks since WWII, or even earlier, and less than half of their networks are electric now. Those two countries combined equal less than a quarter of the US network so just do the math. Those networks receive generous state support while US improvements must be privately funded. There just isn't any incentive for freight, or even Amtrak outside of the NEC, as they can charge fuel surcharges to cover any rising costs of diesel that will always make diesel locomotives cheaper than the investments needed to electrify a line. Companies aren't interested in the environment they exist for one reason - to make their investors even richer. As long as those fuel surcharges are allowed and the government continues to ignore infrastructure improvements then, well I would say that even small scale electrification in the US is more of a pipe dream than seeing steam engines in mainline service again.
Just for giggles and to cause an uproar: You either have internal combustion, or external combustion, the exceptions being wind water or sunlight. I would have to say your alternatives are steam or Diesel or gas turbine, Electric traction does not produce it's own power. The power is produced from another source, The next bit of logic would be, are diesel electrics just electric traction engines with there own power plant.
time to crack the fingers and get to work hahaha. Lets see, diesels couldnt be used solely on electrical power. Most of the tractive effort comes from the prime movers to they have to stay unless be go back and find some cast iron transformers and jam them into the engine's place for ballast. No, steam is more is less of a pipe dream and more of a refinement problem. There are ways to suck more heat out of the same amount of coal wit GCPS (I think thats how you spell it.) Anyway, if you inject steam through ports on the side of the firebox, you get a large... lets call it an inferno, right above the already burning coal. They drives up the BTUs by a grand degree. Steam usage could be modified with modern tech and they could be MUed if you put your mind to it. With al the new sensors out there you could fire a steam locomotive blind for the most part. Now for electrical traction... you have infrastructure problems as well as power problems. Using Electricity would mean more jump stations, more power stations and more upkeep.
There, thats all for my rant/
There, thats all for my rant/
BLACKWATCH
Mechanical Engineer
The solution to the problem is already on the drawing board .............................. :hehe:
jjanmarine3
Active member
The solution to the problem is already on the drawing board .............................. :hehe:
a f*rt is a f*rt
good for the heart
puts the mind at ease
warms the bed on a frosty night
and helps to kill the fleas...
mezzoprezzo
Content appreciator
.
Having a clean electric rail system is entirely feasible. Produce your electricity from a source which isn’t powered by fossil fuels.
Nuclear is the most efficient. Radioactive bundle heats water, which creates steam (yippee!), which drives the turbines, which creates the electricity. Simple but effective.
Europe uses quite a lot. France is a good example. More than 20 nuclear power stations providing (in 2004) a massive 425.8 TWh of the country’s total production of 540.6 TWh. I suppose with all of those TGVs they need it!
At the same time, amongst industrialised nations, France is credited with the lowest Co2 production per unit of GDP in the world. Other nations take note!
Having a clean electric rail system is entirely feasible. Produce your electricity from a source which isn’t powered by fossil fuels.
Nuclear is the most efficient. Radioactive bundle heats water, which creates steam (yippee!), which drives the turbines, which creates the electricity. Simple but effective.
Europe uses quite a lot. France is a good example. More than 20 nuclear power stations providing (in 2004) a massive 425.8 TWh of the country’s total production of 540.6 TWh. I suppose with all of those TGVs they need it!
At the same time, amongst industrialised nations, France is credited with the lowest Co2 production per unit of GDP in the world. Other nations take note!
No national networks perhaps Bill, but we do have 200 of various shapes and sizes which thankfully exist in UK & Ireland.
Did someone say Britain receives generous state railway funding. :hehe: That's got to be the funny thing I've heard all day. Even when we had a state operator with BR, we still received little funding. We only got £300 million to wire up a critical railway route the ECML and buy new trains for it and upgrade the signalling. The government just doesn't want to spend on Britain's railways. But on topic, I love the noise and grime of a steam engine. However, I think a good ol' bit of Valenta thrash wins hands down. Youtube it to see just what a howling diesel powered Valenta sounds like.