Big Bertha Build - Cab Interior

[pcas1986]

Progress on this project has slowed to a crawl while I work on the cab interior. Plus I've been distracted by other things such as writing scripts and trying to solve Mick Berg's "Perpetual Motion Industry Conundrum". (my description). Not to mention football, which has been exciting recently.

Anyway, back to the interior.

Big Bertha was built in 1919 so pictures of her cab interior are rarer than gold nuggets lying around in my back yard. Given that she was a glorified shunter (Sorry Kieran!) I doubt if it was endowed with much more than you might find in a trusty 0-6-0 pannier tank. However, the firebox must have been rather large so the controls and pipes I have built so far look rather puny.

I decided to use the general cab layout of Olton Hall (5972) since I have pictures of that from my visit to the NRM at York. Olton Hall is better known as the Hogwarts Express and it seems they spent more money on the exterior than the cab as it looks rather grubby and tired.

So I have been loading BB's interior up with bits I made for my GWR 54XX PT so it has rather a GWR look at present. Olton Hall was GWR. After re-doing the piping, but not the textures, for the train brake, Kieran suggested a different brake lever so that made need to be rebuilt. That particular brake lever is not just a simple rotation but also moves extra levers so that will be a challenge.

The fire plates and animation have been built and tested. This is a completely new mesh.

Currently BB only has one water level which is situated on the left side and probably will be moved. Don't know how many BB has but if there is space maybe I'll add another.

The picture below shows the cab build as it currently stands. I had hidden the cab shell so there are no "walls" in the shot but it does show the windows and bits remaining from the exterior mesh. So far I haven't done any work on the cab shell so the existing shell is exactly the same as the exterior and so is rather bland. Only half of the firebox is showing as it is a mirrored object and it also has the original texture.

Some of the brass piping is quite shiny and will be either dulled or painted in the final version.

I've shown the fire plates open which shows that the Auran firebox is not in the right place. Currently it is not animating either. But it is an interesting shot as you can see the various "layers" of fire that move to give the fire look. This is a bit hard to see in a normal cab shot anyway.

Some of the gauges are missing their needles but the gauges will be moved anyway.

Right now I'm working on the injector manifold which is a new mesh. The injectors levers are also new. I'm happy with the levers which came out quite well but not happy with the texture for the manifold which has shadows in the wrong place.

There is probably at least another month of work here. Perhaps more.

 

[Edweird]

Can't really argue with 'glorified shunter'. She was built to shunt entire trains for two miles, but it was still pretty much shunting. It does look a little bland at the moment but it's not finished.

I'm trying to identify the levers and such in the cab, but I'm having trouble. Regulator and reverser are obvious. Is that silvery handle near the middle one of the brakes? Normally there's the three brakes, at least two injectors (you said you're working on them), a blower and valves for water level gauges for the boiler (which I can see) and probably the tender too, boiler pressure gauge (top left?), speedometer (can't miss it), the cylinder cocks valve and the sanding gear control.

I've also read something about a 'blowdown valve' which is supposed to clear muck out of the boiler and cylinders? Never heard of it until today when I was just checking to see if I'd forgotten anything.

 

[pcas1986]

The "glorified shunter" was a tongue in cheek comment but my point was that I doubt if it had carriage heating steam lines and other similar controls.

The silvery (brass actually) handle is the train brake lever. That appears to be the normal location. This is also the lever that may change.

The injectors are at the top in the centre but perhaps a bit hard to see. The handles are finished and I am working on the texture for the manifold.

The levers for the water drain are there but there is an alignment problem. I'm thinking of changing them anyway.

The trainbrakepipe display dial and mount has been moved to its correct position but needs a mounting bracket as it is currently floating in space. Only one of the brass lines have been made going to the dial but it looks rather skinny so maybe I'll remake it. The dial face texture needs to be redone.

The boiler pressure and speedometer dials and mounts have to be moved. Those are the import points.

The sanding levers, other controls, seats, floor, etc still have to be made.

Getting the layout correct is rather difficult. My drawing skills are abysmal, so my plan is to make the controls first, move them around until the location looks good and then add all the plumbing.

 

[Edweird]

Okay. One suggestion I have then, if you're not sure exactly where to place everything as yet, would be to look at the control layouts in other Fowler locomotives for patterns and such. Generally the layout is very similar in most steam locomotives anyway.

 

[Edweird]

Damnit, double posted again.

 

[pcas1986]

If only it was that easy! I have been looking at a number of British steam loco cabs for inspiration and haven't had much luck. A couple of helpful volunteers have been sending me pictures of loco cabs separately but none of these are of LMS locos.

Its not really clear if BB was a Fowler design although he was CME of MR at the time. The WiKi site credits James Clayton as the designer although elsewhere I read he was a draughtsman that worked for Fowler. Anyway, I doubt if the control layout would vary that much from others built at Derby Works in the same era.

After your post, I had another look and discovered that Fowler and Clayton were also credited with the design of the 7F loco which were built for the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway and later absorbed into LMS. But the good new is that two of these locos survived. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S&DJR_7F_2-8-0

I had seen this page before but the photos didn't encourage me to look further. This time I followed some of the links and discovered some characteristics of the preserved locos bear a remarkable resemblance to Big Bertha. Having built the model, one spots this rather easily! Of particular interest to me was one shot of the Walschaerts gear used on the 7F which is very similar to BB. In one of my earlier posts I mentioned that BB's Walschaerts gear was different to others. This also affected the animation. The shape of some of the rods solved a problem I had when building the model when things didn't fit properly. Maybe I will revisit that section of the model later as I got it wrong!

Unfortunately, I haven't found a decent photo of the interior of a 7F but, since there are two of them in preservation, maybe someone has a photo somewhere.

Here is one site with some interesting photos. Unfortunately, many of the links are broken. http://www.sdrt.org/resources/stocklist/88newimages.htm

I'm going to take some time out to explore this avenue to see if anything interesting turns up.

 

[pcas1986]

There is quite a bit of material on the 7Fs on the web which is not surprising given there are two of them still running.

I found this remarkable video of a footplate ride on the SDJR no 88 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TBffoo8n60&feature=related The video runs for about 25 minutes and is well worth the ride.

There is also a great set of photos taken of the cab of that loco (88) during a rebuild a couple of years earlier. Note the nice cream finish during rebuild and the soot blackened version in the video.

See http://www.flickr.com/photos/railsimulator/sets/72157621796286006/

This particular 7F is one of the later 7Fs that were fitted for left hand drive. The earlier versions were right hand drive as was Big Bertha.

If I remodel the BB cab interior on the 7F then there will be lots of changes. I also have no idea what the control in the centre of the firebox does but it does get used a lot in the video. Any suggestions would be useful.

Using the 7F layout is probably a reasonable thing to do given they had common designers and were built around the same time.


This is another video of the same loco. The sequence starting at 1:40 as it leaves the station is outstanding!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSUpo9wsAI

 

[captainkman]

Thanks for those videos Paul. I don't know why I didn't think of a 7F cab earlier, and I noticed the similarities between Bertha and a 7F, especially the valve gear.

I think basing the interior of Big Bertha on that of a 7F would be a good idea, despite the re-modelling.

I have a hunch that the control over the firebox is the blower. The blower in the 4F and 3F cabs from TC3/SnC are above the firebox doors too.

Kieran.

P.S. I'm buying SnC this weekend!

 

[pcas1986]

Don't know if you watched the cab ride video but the fireman tweaked that control several times towards the end of the trip. I'll have another look at the 4F and 3F.

Seeing the valve gear operating was a revelation and I wish I had the video earlier.

I don't mind redoing the controls when I have good imagery.

Enjoy the SnC. IMHO it is a very good route add-on and probably don't use it enough.

ps - it rains a lot in SnC.

 

[captainkman]

I figured about the rain! I have TC3 which I love, I just want to have one game with all the stuff, that's why I am buying SnC.

TC3 was and still is my favourite Trainz version, so I hope SnC will be even better! i'm going ot make a MP session using SnC, but not stuff from the support website. It can be done, I have my backup reasoning too if you'd like to debate it!

 

[Edweird]

My goodness, there are a lot of similarities between the 7F and Bertha; right down the the inclined cylinders and the general appearance. It's as though Bertha was adapted from the design of the 7F, which I suppose is quite possible. If would make sense for Bertha and the 7Fs to have similar cab layouts, as the first batch were built before Bertha, and the second after her.

Those videos are splendid. The first one gives some brilliant views of the cab, but also the iconic footplate ride on a steam engine. It's been years since I rode upon the footplate of a Black Five on the NYMR. I'm with Kieran, I think it's the blower.
That scene you were talking about at 1:40 also gives a splendid view of the valve gear. It's a splendid bit of footage that.

I couldn't help but think that they could use Bertha's tender on that 7F, seeing as they run it backwards.

 

[captainkman]

I've bought SnC now, I'd appreciate help getting it in TS12. I've never used DLC before! The thread is in the TS12 section.

Can't wait for the re-done cab too! I know it's going to be a while. I'm willing to wait for this, I don't want a rushed loco!

 

[pcas1986]

For Edweird,
There was a bit of discussion about shelter from the elements on the return journey and a mention that the canvas cover they use was not particularly good. BB's tender must have been what they call a "cab tender" which would have given some extra shelter. I had spotted the same valve gear on other locos but none with decent photos. There were several aspects that gave me problems: one was the general geometry of a couple of the connecting rod, and the second was the mechanism on the upper piston (the controlling valve gear). I did clip some stills from the video with Snap5 to examine in detail later.

For Kieran,
Don't you just run the executable? I don't recall having any problems with it but I have had for some years and installed it for TS9, 10 and 12. I have TC3 but not installed.

I have never played MP so I'm not sure what the problem may be?

 

[captainkman]

For Paul:

The problem is that only built-in or DLS content can be used for MP. My argument for the add-ons being used for MP is that they show as built in, so they can be used. There is a MP session using the Blue Comet I believe, and it works.

I'll see how installing it goes. I wanna run the 4F!

 

[Edweird]

For Edweird

You can call me Ed, or Edward. I only used that username because the aforementioned were taken.

I've doing a bit of reading, trying to find out more about the LNER U1 that was trialed on the Lickey incline. I read that it was banking a train and stalled, then Bertha helped rescue it, making a train with 14 driving axles, but how could a monstosity like the U1 Garratt stall?

 

[captainkman]

Ed:

I can think of a few reasons for the stalling:

1. Wheels were slipping
2. Boiler pressure dropped due to bad firing or driving.

And some others.

Paul:
I got SnC working, and I got the patch installed. It's great! The Aspinall was puffing out smoke weirdly, but the patch fixed that. I like the rolling stock changes too. The Class 24 now has grey smoke pouring out of it, even when idle, and I love the sessions that are different from the TC3 ones, and the website ones are good too. I love the number of shunting sessions, like Long Meg Shunting, avaliable from the support site. I still haven't driven the A3, 4F or any of the diesels!

I've got a MP session for TS12 on the DLS that uses Vale of Eden and some SnC rolling stock. If it works then I'll make a session over the entire SnC line!

TS12 was laggy, but I removed the speedtree .dat file and it's better now. I still have trees, but they don't move and drop framerates down.

Kieran.

P.S. Sorry to go off track from Bertha. I'm planning a driver session for her.

 

[pcas1986]

Ed,
Sorry, I thought you preferred using that name. You're in good company as I got Kieran's name wrong as well.

Didn't know about the Garratt problem. The Backtrack article has a photo of the Garratt and BB working together on what appears to be a goods train.

Regarding BB.

I've remade the regulator but it may need a tweak after I add the blower/sander control. The lower part of the handle has a significant bend to clear controls and probably allow some arm space.

Paul Hobbs helped out for the naming/purpose of some of the controls. Getting the size right is a problem but I've managed to get one of the photos showing the general layout as a background image into Blender and that will help.

 

[Edweird]

Don't worry about the name, I never said before I don't think.

I suppose it must have been bad firing that caused the Garratt to stall, seeing as after Bertha was added they set off again whilst still on the hill, or at least that's the impression I got from what I've read.

At least you've got a picture to work from not like you did for the main model.

Speaking of cabs, again a bit unrelated to Bertha; I don't know where you stand on Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends Paul but I know Kieran has an interest. I don't suppose either of you have downloaded any of the TTTE&F models for Trainz from SI3D? One thing I have noticed is that a lot of those models, when you're in the cab view (which I prefer to be when operating the engine in the realistic control mode as I can never remember the keyboard controls) they all have the same cab, which is fair enough, the significant part of TTTE was the external view, but when you look out of the side of the locomotive in cab view, the boiler is always this ugly, low detail black thing with a white smokebox.

 

[captainkman]

I have them, but rarely go in the cab, as they don't operate in Cab mode. I only have the 2006 ones too, as I don't like the baked textures on the 2009 ones.

Must be a problem on your end, I always see a texture when I look out the side. What locos are doing it for you?

 

[pcas1986]

No, I don't follow TTTE these days although I have fond memories of my daughters loving the shows. We bought them a set of Thomas, Annie and Clarabel plastic push around toys and they wore out the wheels on Thomas. So we bought another set each and ended up with four Annies and four Clarabels.

Note that the external parts of any loco when you are in cab view is actually part of the cab interior mesh. Its not the exterior mesh. I generally start with the exterior mesh and convert into the interior by removing anything that would not normally be seen from a cab view.

I've been waiting to see if Kieran said anything about the cab interiors for the 4F in SnC because in my installation the controls have no detail and the colours are rather odd. Kieran did mention an update and I'm wondering if I never reloaded the update when re-installing for TS12.