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N33
November 29th, 2012, 01:36 PM
This may seem odd to some members but why are people saying you shouldn't install trainz to program files folder on main drive?

It seems rather odd since the install paths have no real effect on how quick things are accessed. It may be a work around for user account control things in Vista upwards but surely this can be solved simply by simply pressing a button.

If this is in the wrong area then please it move it moderators :)

Regards

A somewhat confused Johan :o

shaneturner12
November 29th, 2012, 01:55 PM
The main reasons are:

1. UAC will severely affect the operation of Trainz.
2. The trainz program will be affected more by system services.

Shane

KenGreen
November 29th, 2012, 02:14 PM
Shane
The problem is that Peter V posted this yesterday which seems to be contrary to what everybody else has been saying on this Forum for a while now.

Ken
**************************
Originally Posted by Scottbe8
Trainz should never, under any circumstances, be installed to C:\Program Files or C:\Program Files (x86). You are better off just creating the folder C:\Trainz and installing the software there.
Strange advice??

The Trainz installers default to the "Program Files" area and all my default installations ( TRS2004 to TS12 on WinXP and Win7) work fine. The only proviso I offer is that the anti-virus software has to have the Trainz folders #added to the
exception list for downloads from the DLS to work.
Peter V

rickf77
November 29th, 2012, 02:43 PM
For now, I have mine in the X86 files and have UAC turned off. I'm hoping the free AVG is watching over me. This is only the second sim I've owned. With Combat Sim 2, I was using 2 computers. One for the game, the other to go to site and for downloading stuff. The one with the sim had never been online until I got TS12. I'm just new at this, but I find, so far, nothing to complain about. I'm thinking of returning to the 2 pc system, although it may be quite a bit more trouble. When I can keep the pc off line, all I have running at start up is the sound and Nvidia. I was happy with the performance of CFS2, a hog for sure, but it worked well this way.

Cheers....Rick

JackDownUnder
November 29th, 2012, 02:49 PM
After installing 2x240GB SSD's to replace 2x60GB ones and having Trainz on a separate 1TB drive I had to install my TS2012 again to the SSD's before it would start up. Assume therefore that it must have a file in the Hidden file sector of the start up section of the root directory, or something. but it is installed in Program files in both cases.

shaneturner12
November 29th, 2012, 02:59 PM
Shane
The problem is that Peter V posted this yesterday which seems to be contrary to what everybody else has been saying on this Forum for a while now.

Ken
**************************
Originally Posted by Scottbe8
Trainz should never, under any circumstances, be installed to C:\Program Files or C:\Program Files (x86). You are better off just creating the folder C:\Trainz and installing the software there.
Strange advice??

The Trainz installers default to the "Program Files" area and all my default installations ( TRS2004 to TS12 on WinXP and Win7) work fine. The only proviso I offer is that the anti-virus software has to have the Trainz folders #added to the
exception list for downloads from the DLS to work.
Peter V

I am aware of that, but in my opinion programs installed in Program Files or Program Files (x86) require higher permissions than programs not installed in these location.

Shane

sniper297
November 29th, 2012, 03:02 PM
From 95 to XP, if you format the hard drive and install the operating system from the beginning, when you open Windows Explorer and double click on C, you get a warning that messing around in here could trash your computer. Click okay to get past that, now you can view all files and folders - except Program Files, that has another warning requiring the user to reset permissions so he can look inside Program Files. Once you're past that you tend to forget it until you have to reinstall the operating system and do it again.
Vista and later introduced UAC, which allows users to edit and alter files and folders - but saves the changes to a "virtual folder", fooling the user into thinking he actually changed the original, which is still the same as before. The Program Files (X86) is even worse since UAC guards that like a US Marine.

Computer wizards often say they have no trouble at all with UAC - then when you investigate that claim you find that the first thing they did was reinstall the operating system, log in as administrator, and turn off UAC and set it so it would never restart, before installing anything else, including drivers.

The vision is for the programmer to do everything and the user to do nothing except click on icons, a game installs into Program Files and the user starts it with a shortcut, and never has a chance to accidentally screw something up. That's fine, except for moddable games like Trainz, which the user is supposed to modify by installing, deleting, and editing assorted addons for the game. Installing the game in Program Files if you're not a computer wiz who knows how to defeat UAC will leave the user constantly fighting with UAC over control of the Trainz folder, and with that virtual folder the sneaky culprit even lets the user think he won that round, only to find his changes have mysteriously been reset to original.

In conclusion, there's no particular advantage to installing in Program Files, but depending how computer savvy you are about managing UAC there could be some disadvantages. When the day comes I have to get Windows 7 I'm certain that I could install anything in Program Files (X86) and make it work without much trouble, but everybody is not me, I've been playing around with computers for 35 years and spent most of my adult life as an electric - electronic - mechanical - hydraulic - pneumatic troubleshooter. Bottom line, if you have Vista or Win7 and are having weird problems with the game, try copying the \TS2010 or \TS12 folder to the root of C:\ and create a shortcut to that one, delete the one in \Program Files (X86) if the copy works better.

clam1952
November 29th, 2012, 03:03 PM
Shane
The problem is that Peter V posted this yesterday which seems to be contrary to what everybody else has been saying on this Forum for a while now.

Ken
**************************
Originally Posted by Scottbe8
Trainz should never, under any circumstances, be installed to C:\Program Files or C:\Program Files (x86). You are better off just creating the folder C:\Trainz and installing the software there.
Strange advice??

The Trainz installers default to the "Program Files" area and all my default installations ( TRS2004 to TS12 on WinXP and Win7) work fine. The only proviso I offer is that the anti-virus software has to have the Trainz folders #added to the
exception list for downloads from the DLS to work.
Peter V
It only applies to Win7 Home Premium or lower and only if you never installed it as administrator in HP, it's not a problem in Pro Business or Ultimate you can stick wherever you like in them and install as a normal user. It's also difficult to set up traditional networking in HP and lower without a registry hack where with the higher versions it's normal as in XP

Plenty on the net, including the MS forums about Win7 HP and problems with permissions and write restrictions in Program Files

To clarify Win7 Pro upwards you can install in Program Files from your user account and there shouldn't be any problems.
Win7 HP you can install in Program Files if you install as Administrator that's from whatever account you are using and it should be OK, most users however just click install and go with the flow then find that in HP the settings don't save, they can't save user details or even edit trainzoptions.txt without running through hoops and setting everything to run as Administrator.



For most HP users it's easier to just install it outside of Program Files.

Personally I never install any games or important programs anywhere near the C or system drive, I've always used multiple hard drives and partitions to keep thing organised how I like it.

tomurban
November 29th, 2012, 03:20 PM
All I can tell you is that I now have TRS12 installed on two different computers. In both systems TRS12 was installed in C:\TRS2012. The older install was over 2.5 years ago, the newer one just recently. I have never been denied permission to edit or modify a file or informed that I need permission from the Administrator to do something. My launcher screen comes up and routes load in seconds, although the new i7 does this in about one half the time than the older i5. Any more doubters?

shaneturner12
November 29th, 2012, 03:23 PM
Another thing I am aware of is that if Trainz is installed in Program Files or Program Files (x86), don't expect to be able to update the trainzoptions.txt file without having to jump through hoops.

Shane

KenGreen
November 29th, 2012, 03:40 PM
Don't forget that by saying it's fine to install in program files we are also implying that there is no advantage to installing Trainz on a separate drive.

Ken

shaneturner12
November 29th, 2012, 03:42 PM
I would personally say that if it's a seperate internal drive, there probably wouldn't be much difference performance-wise, although UAC will not interefere as much.

Shane

sniper297
November 29th, 2012, 03:56 PM
"Any more doubters?" I doubt it, altho never doubt the doubters' doubt. :confused: I did some research about WHY programmers design installation to automatically default to Program Files long before Vista. It turns out the original theory behind the Program Files folder was a protected folder for system critical programs, everyone started spamming that even with games because the computer clueless are less likely to mess around in that folder and it cuts down on tech support calls. Nothing more, it's a complete myth that games run "better" in the Program Files folder in XP and earlier, and in Vista and later the only advantage to installing there is if you're putting it on a kid's computer or something. Either way, you want to have less trouble with computers you really should learn something about how your operating system works and how to take control of it, most people don't.

http://www.dummies.com/store/Computers-Internet/Operating-Systems.html

Computers are not my hobby, I find maintaining systems to be a tedious chore, but it beats the hell out of not being able to play games when something is wrong.

gawpo50
November 29th, 2012, 04:15 PM
Shane
The problem is that Peter V posted this yesterday which seems to be contrary to what everybody else has been saying on this Forum for a while now.

Ken
**************************
Originally Posted by Scottbe8
Trainz should never, under any circumstances, be installed to C:\Program Files or C:\Program Files (x86). You are better off just creating the folder C:\Trainz and installing the software there.
Strange advice??

The Trainz installers default to the "Program Files" area and all my default installations ( TRS2004 to TS12 on WinXP and Win7) work fine. The only proviso I offer is that the anti-virus software has to have the Trainz folders #added to the
exception list for downloads from the DLS to work.
Peter V


I am aware of that, but in my opinion programs installed in Program Files or Program Files (x86) require higher permissions than programs not installed in these location.

Shane

Other than what Shane said, from my experience over the years and I have been around OS'es since the early days of DOS and commodore64 as both a tech and programmer. I always keep everything away from the 'C' partition for the simple reason that if you had to do a complete format or re-install of your OS, you wouldn't loose anything else. Yes you still needed to re-install other software but it offers some protection from loosing stuff. Secondly you don't need to worry about UAC in Vista and Win7. Third, you are not competing as much for drive speed and system resources by placing all your program files on another partition or drive.

Peter

tomurban
November 29th, 2012, 04:57 PM
"Any more doubters?" I doubt it, altho never doubt the doubters' doubt. :confused: I did some research about WHY programmers design installation to automatically default to Program Files long before Vista. It turns out the original theory behind the Program Files folder was a protected folder for system critical programs, everyone started spamming that even with games because the computer clueless are less likely to mess around in that folder and it cuts down on tech support calls. Nothing more, it's a complete myth that games run "better" in the Program Files folder in XP and earlier, and in Vista and later the only advantage to installing there is if you're putting it on a kid's computer or something. Either way, you want to have less trouble with computers you really should learn something about how your operating system works and how to take control of it, most people don't.


http://www.dummies.com/store/Computers-Internet/Operating-Systems.html

Computers are not my hobby, I find maintaining systems to be a tedious chore, but it beats the hell out of not being able to play games when something is wrong.

Thanks for researching the subject Jim. I also go back to the DOS days and your research pretty much confirmed what I had suspected.