PDA

View Full Version : I Finally Erased RailWorks



boleyd
September 21st, 2012, 10:25 AM
Almost 40gb of disk space recovered in reaction to the latest attempt at jaw-dropping, world-class technology. For three years I had been accumulating stuff from sites all over the world and "improving" on existing routes. The promise held by the product finally evaporated with the latest release. You know, it is a relief. Using two different rail programs can be confusing at times. Trainz may be more complex (partly due to legacy things) but from complexity comes opportunity to enjoy particular areas of railroading. I already have stored over 58gb of goodies from the Trainz world. If I do not find a way to catalog them some of the gems may be lost to the bottom of the pile.

I was spending lots of time "on the other side" learning signal's peculiarities and lack of coherence in the AI trains. Here, in Trainz, the learning curve is not as steep to get a reasonably working set of AI trains running around in a plausible manner. Now when you start trying other things such a rules, different company signals and maybe some "real switches" it gets complex, but fun.

So, stress is reduced by not trying to keep things straight between two different programs. I am sure that enjoyment will go up through focus on one simulator (really the only one).

I would like to publicly mention that the routes that kept me interested in Trainz came from CheckRail. Rather than the routes that lay tracks and place decorations just to get a feel for the environment, the Checkrail products go the extra mile and give you a very real graphical environment. On so many routes I have tried they are loaded with old 2004 era assets and look poor in TS2012. I could spend weeks cleaning out the old fuzzy looking stuff. But Checkrails is an out of the box experience of reality of top quality assets that are placed in a believable manner.

Robert2d6
September 21st, 2012, 10:35 AM
Been reading the different reports since yesterday, about the new version of RW, and all the problems that people are running into trying to run it. Sounds like a trip to the Twilight Zone, dealing with Steam, and new stuff that won't work, etc..etc... I am so glad that I researched before buying TS12, and went to someone's home and tried two other Train sims, before deciding what to get. I have only been using Trainz less than two months, have around 60 GB's of Trainz stuff on my hard drive, and learned how to lay track, program AI, repair minor problems in routes, operate all kinds of trains, and looking at some great scenery with excellent frame rates. Doesn't get any better than that, as far as I am concerned. A friend of mine got RW3 on sale about the same time that I got TS12, and he is totally disappointed with it, and says he will probably remove it and get TS12.

RRSignal
September 21st, 2012, 10:37 AM
I have RW2 and RW3 (de-Steamed, of course haha) and almost never play them. I play MSTS much more often. Doesn't that tell you something?

Robert2d6
September 21st, 2012, 10:41 AM
Almost 40gb of disk space recovered in reaction to the latest attempt at jaw-dropping, world-class technology. For three years I had been accumulating stuff from sites all over the world and "improving" on existing routes. The promise held by the product finally evaporated with the latest release. You know, it is a relief. Using two different rail programs can be confusing at times. Trainz may be more complex (partly due to legacy things) but from complexity comes opportunity to enjoy particular areas of railroading. I already have stored over 58gb of goodies from the Trainz world. If I do not find a way to catalog them some of the gems may be lost to the bottom of the pile.

I was spending lots of time "on the other side" learning signal's peculiarities and lack of coherence in the AI trains. Here, in Trainz, the learning curve is not as steep to get a reasonably working set of AI trains running around in a plausible manner. Now when you start trying other things such a rules, different company signals and maybe some "real switches" it gets complex, but fun.

So, stress is reduced by not trying to keep things straight between two different programs. I am sure that enjoyment will go up through focus on one simulator (really the only one).

I would like to publicly mention that the routes that kept me interested in Trainz came from CheckRail. Rather than the routes that lay tracks and place decorations just to get a feel for the environment, the Checkrail products go the extra mile and give you a very real graphical environment. On so many routes I have tried they are loaded with old 2004 era assets and look poor in TS2012. I could spend weeks cleaning out the old fuzzy looking stuff. But Checkrails is an out of the box experience of reality of top quality assets that are placed in a believable manner.

I have looked at Checkrails stuff, but none of it that I have seen states that it will work on TS12. Can you recommend routes of theirs that do?

boleyd
September 21st, 2012, 11:58 AM
The latest Kentucky route and Evansville do work on TS2012. Excellent routes that show what effort and talent can do.

sniper297
September 21st, 2012, 01:14 PM
What, you're giving up on Scenery Simulator? Don't you know you can take AWESOME SCREENSHOTS or jump in a train and HAVE A RUN in Railworks? :hehe:

Seriously, my deepest sympathies, it showed such great promise five years ago and it was really disappointing to me they didn't develop it into an actual simulator.

The biscuits have hit the fan as usual on trainsim and UKtrainsim, but after a couple weeks they'll return to the regularly scheduled passenger trains on British commuter railways. :sleep:

wholbr
September 21st, 2012, 02:04 PM
Hi everybody.
With reference to the Railworks upgrade for me it downloaded and installed with no problems whatsoever and almost all the payware content continued to work exactly as it had done prior to the upgrade.

Only my class 142 DMU unit which I bought last week broke during the revamp which when opened had the driver sitting in an open air cab with no roof, sides or windscreen which made it a very cold journey when I drove it that way between the Severn Tunnel Junction and Bristol Parkway (LOL). I contacted the producers who are Armstrong powerhouse/wagonz and they responded within the hour and the problem was solved. So for me the whole upgrade experience was not bad at all.

However I do not see that Railworks and trainz are really competing with one another these days. For me trainz is for the serious hobbyist who wishes to create routes and other content and not wishing for any great changes in the simulator that may ruin their work

Railworks in my view is for the person who I would describe as a light user. In that I would mean someone like myself does not get a great deal of free time but on an evening just likes to relax with and drive his favourite unit (at present my class 142 DMU) along a route he knows well which for me is the Just Trains produced Bristol and Avonmouth, just brilliant. Obviously virtually everything in Railworks is payware but that is the way you have to go if you want things easy.

If I did have more free time I would undoubtedly choose trainz as my only simulator and finish my North Devon branch lines route which I started in 2009 then upgraded it to 2010. However, with the amount of work I have on these days it will undoubtedly never get finished until I retire.

In conclusion, Railworks and trainz may both be train simulators but I feel they serve different markets and should not be compared these days.

Bill

smash
September 21st, 2012, 02:10 PM
I bought Railworks 3 Ts2012 + Horseshoe curve on steam for $3.99. I got it on one of there sales.
I am so glad that I did not spend more for it.
Dont get me wrong It is not bad for an occasional drive but I wound not want to try to edit a route.
(And yes I am biased after 10 years of trainZ)
Kenny

boleyd
September 21st, 2012, 02:27 PM
The occasional Railworks drive is not real. There is no other activity. Yes there are ghost trains passing on another system of track. I have a simple scenario of three trains on the Evansville Trainz route. One is on a siding and automatically waits for an oncoming train. In Railworks you have a good chance of a collision and that is why their precast scenarios are phony. For the occasional drive I recommend the TS2012 East Kentucky route from Checkrails. It is eerily real. On a hot simmer day you can almost smell the vegetation as you wend your way between towns in the hills of Kentucky. Try that for a nice drive on a Sunday morning. If you want an interesting drive take Google maps at street level and cruise through San Francisco over to Sausalito. Or explore the towns in the Napa Valley. Google streets offers far more than Railworks for a scenic drive.

steamrodder
September 21st, 2012, 02:27 PM
I'm one of the hardcore Trainz fan myself. gave away all my MS railroad sim stuff, maybe I've should of kept those, and get an appraisal from the Antiques Road Show!:p

wholbr
September 21st, 2012, 03:01 PM
Hi everrybody

snip~ If you want an interesting drive take Google maps at street level and cruise through San Francisco over to Sausalito. Or explore the towns in the Napa Valley. Google streets offers far more than Railworks for a scenic drive.

Compare google street to a train Simulator ?...............Oh well each to his own.

Thanks for the tip.:confused:
Bill

sniper297
September 21st, 2012, 03:46 PM
He didn't compare it to a train simulator, he compared it to Railworks - which despite the label is NOT a train simulator and never will be.

wholbr
September 21st, 2012, 04:53 PM
Hi everyone.

He didn't compare it to a train simulator, he compared it to Railworks - which despite the label is NOT a train simulator and never will be.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on a forum such as this. Such is yours

Bill

jeffmorris
September 21st, 2012, 07:46 PM
Are the graphics in RailWorks 2013 better than those in RailWorks 2012? I downloaded RW2013 and tried it out.

sniper297
September 21st, 2012, 09:19 PM
I'm a little lost, Jeff, you downloaded and tried it out - and you're asking if they're better? Or do you mean this is your first time with RW? Got a few "first impressions" threads here;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/forumdisplay.php?98-RW-General

I gave up on RW back when it was still railworks 1 (AI traffic is hopeless for simulating US operations), but from what I read RW 2 (or 3, whichever one introduced the "new technology" with raindrops on the windows) trashed the framerates, consensus seems to be that they're better now.

Euphod
September 21st, 2012, 09:28 PM
I think Jeff is asking for a comparison of the earlier version which he does not have to the later version which he does have.

sniper297
September 21st, 2012, 09:47 PM
Couldn't tell you that, since the only version of RW I saw was the first. I had rail simulator before that, so I could compare those two;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?284423-Got-Railsim-why-should-I-buy-Railworks

but nothing later than RW 1, since all these evil Trainz guyz seduced me over to The Dark Side;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?285908-Attitude-Check!

jeffmorris
September 22nd, 2012, 04:23 AM
I already have RailWorks 2012 and I updated to RailWorks 2013. I thought that the graphics are better in RW2013 than in RW2012. Look at the trees on the NorthEast Corridor route. There are still graphics problems with the tracks where turnouts are formed.

peghorse
September 22nd, 2012, 05:57 AM
I have read some this vs that threads for a while and won't say anything unless I owned both which I dont.
What I will say is that despite the lack of outhouses and with freezing winters about there is still a darn good argument
for Steam still actually having a purpose. It's ok I spose.
Thath all folkth! *cue music & curtain..

kurachka
September 22nd, 2012, 10:12 AM
Hello.
I am not writting post to defend/compare one sim.over other. I spent close 1000 hours riding RW rails and maybe 100 hours riding TZ rails. New RW2013 much better and completely redesign. Two sims, ton,s of opinions. Niether TZ or RW are close to real sim. Game...,just a game.

Jack.:'(

Robert2d6
September 22nd, 2012, 10:57 AM
Hello.
I am not writting post to defend/compare one sim.over other. I spent close 1000 hours riding RW rails and maybe 100 hours riding TZ rails. New RW2013 much better and completely redesign. Two sims, ton,s of opinions. Niether TZ or RW are close to real sim. Game...,just a game.

Jack.:'(


You may be right, but there sure are a bucket load of complaints on the forums focused on RW3 from people that have been very active in that sim, about non-functioning items, poor or no AI, trains that can climb very steep grades at 10% power, power lines with the jaggies, etc..etc... Doesn't sound like something I would like to put alot of time or effort into.

kurachka
September 22nd, 2012, 11:47 AM
You may be right, but there sure are a bucket load of complaints on the forums focused on RW3 from people that have been very active in that sim, about non-functioning items, poor or no AI, trains that can climb very steep grades at 10% power, power lines with the jaggies, etc..etc... Doesn't sound like something I would like to put alot of time or effort into.
Hello.
You have valid point, but You will hopefully agree none of the sims are perfect. Last TZ 12 was not perfect,but it gave sim devs new platform to work with and a lot of good new content was created on that platform. There always be users that will find issues where none exist. Same on both forums.

Thank,s for Your reply.


Jack.

lackoo11111
September 22nd, 2012, 12:19 PM
From their EULA ( you can download it from here : http://www.railsimulator.com/terms/ )


(e) The UGC must not be used in, or made available to, any other simulator software
which is similar to or competes with the Software (if you any doubt about this, please
contact licencing@railsimulator.com);

Is this a joke ?

clam1952
September 22nd, 2012, 12:31 PM
From their EULA ( you can download it from here : http://www.railsimulator.com/terms/ )



Is this a joke ?

No idea but add the fact that they use Steam as the only means of distribution, that doubles the reason to avoid Railworks, Rail Simulator 2013 or whatever it's name is this week, couldn't care less if it's any good or not.

Robert2d6
September 22nd, 2012, 01:01 PM
No idea but add the fact that they use Steam as the only means of distribution, that doubles the reason to avoid Railworks, Rail Simulator 2013 or whatever it's name is this week, couldn't care less if it's any good or not.

I wouldn't put Steam on my PC if they were giving Railworks away for free, in fact they almost did last July, $4 I think.

kurachka
September 22nd, 2012, 02:49 PM
No idea but add the fact that they use Steam as the only means of distribution, that doubles the reason to avoid Railworks, Rail Simulator 2013 or whatever it's name is this week, couldn't care less if it's any good or not.
You seem to know what it is called today.

kurachka
September 22nd, 2012, 02:51 PM
I wouldn't put Steam on my PC if they were giving Railworks away for free, in fact they almost did last July, $4 I think.
Same as Trainz..., yesterday $12.50.

JCitron
September 22nd, 2012, 02:58 PM
I wouldn't put Steam on my PC if they were giving Railworks away for free, in fact they almost did last July, $4 I think.

I seriously looked at getting RS2012 awhile back. That was until I saw the only way to get it was to download it from Steam. I too would never, ever put that crap on my machine. It's bad enough we have to run stuff from various other vendors that talk to network services all the time.

What I don' want is some DRM stuff not just eating up my network bandwidth, but running in the background killing my machine's performance. The other thing too is being at the whim of the company that owns the software. What are we to do if they decide they're no long going to support this software package? After all we don't "own" the program we've paid a lot of money for, we just buy the rights to use it. If this is the case, we'll be stuck with a useful program that's made useless because of their pissing match with the developer.

John

Vern
September 22nd, 2012, 03:19 PM
The new EULA is a bit confusing but it does seem to imply if you create something in RW that uses their tools (could be a scenery object, locomotive or route) they don't want to see it in any other sim.

Personally I feel it would be almost impossible to enforce that in law - the source file for a 3D object would be in (say) 3D Canvas/Crafter and exports to each sim using its own process. Likewise none of the route building tools supplied with RW could help with Trainz or vv, the processes are almost entirely different.

Mouse84
September 22nd, 2012, 04:08 PM
What I don' want is some DRM stuff not just eating up my network bandwidth, but running in the background killing my machine's performance. The other thing too is being at the whim of the company that owns the software. What are we to do if they decide they're no long going to support this software package? After all we don't "own" the program we've paid a lot of money for, we just buy the rights to use it. If this is the case, we'll be stuck with a useful program that's made useless because of their pissing match with the developer.

John

Bingo, you couldn't pay me to put anything Steam on my PCs.

nfitzsimmons
September 22nd, 2012, 06:43 PM
If you're looking for a simulator take a look at Run8. Only one route, graphics are adequate, and it's really designed for multi-player, but the physics are good, in multi-player you can be the dispatcher and let other people drive trains, and you can actually set up your MU connections yourself if you want. But don't plan on just jumping into a cad, pumping up the air and driving.

And for the record I own MSTS, Trainz, Railworks, and Run8 and enjoy all of them. Each has it's own strong and weak points, advantages and disadvantages. And I'd be the last to criticize anyone for not "liking" my favorite.

kurachka
September 22nd, 2012, 06:58 PM
If you're looking for a simulator take a look at Run8. Only one route, graphics are adequate, and it's really designed for multi-player, but the physics are good, in multi-player you can be the dispatcher and let other people drive trains, and you can actually set up your MU connections yourself if you want. But don't plan on just jumping into a cad, pumping up the air and driving.

And for the record I own MSTS, Trainz, Railworks, and Run8 and enjoy all of them. Each has it's own strong and weak points, advantages and disadvantages. And I'd be the last to criticize anyone for not "liking" my favorite.
I agree,originally I played MS trains,then Trainz,then Railworks. Just felt Railworks was a bit more stable then TZ 2010 and easier to download extra content. Somehow kept playing...
None better or worst. You said it correctly. I read and enjoy both forums. I did multi player with Vora, but found that mp. not something that I would like to continue to do. Not sure how mp.in Run 8 works, but if it same playing model as in RW, will pass on it. I guess I am not hard core simmer.

Jack.

Robert2d6
September 22nd, 2012, 07:20 PM
If you're looking for a simulator take a look at Run8. Only one route, graphics are adequate, and it's really designed for multi-player, but the physics are good, in multi-player you can be the dispatcher and let other people drive trains, and you can actually set up your MU connections yourself if you want. But don't plan on just jumping into a cad, pumping up the air and driving.

And for the record I own MSTS, Trainz, Railworks, and Run8 and enjoy all of them. Each has it's own strong and weak points, advantages and disadvantages. And I'd be the last to criticize anyone for not "liking" my favorite.

Friend of mine got Run 8 and was bored with it within a week. He doesn't have the hours to devote to Multiplayer, and having one scenery, no AI, and one route didn't retain his interest for very long.

nfitzsimmons
September 22nd, 2012, 07:33 PM
MP in Run8 involves one person setting up a server session and inviting others to join. A train is spawned for each participant, with one other participant acting as the dispatcher. There is multi-channel "radio" communication between the players, and everything is done in realtime. There are functioning defect detectors, and sometimes you need to stop your train and "walk" back to the defective car to see if it's something you can fix.

The designers were really upfront about the fact that it's designed to be a multiplayer game, and that single-player is only for learning how to drive correctly. But from an operations perspective it's much more realistic than any of the others.

Besides, could you imagine something like Team Fortress 2 as single player?

sniper297
September 22nd, 2012, 07:46 PM
Haven't tried run8 myself since I'm more into midwest urban routes and heavy AI traffic, but from what I understand they have actual multiplayer similar to TS12. The official forum is weird because you have to register in order to see anything at all, no "teasers". But Nels added forums for it at trainsim;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/forumdisplay.php?114-Run8

As for railworks "multiplayer" they backed off that description and call it "relay" now - basically it's the same as if we set up a 3 hour session, Larry runs the first hour and saves the game, zips up the savegame and emails it to Moe. Moe loads Larry's savegame and runs the second hour, then saves that, zips it up and emails it to Curly, who runs the last hour to finish the session. :sleep:

nfitzsimmons
September 22nd, 2012, 08:25 PM
And Shemp watches and drinks beer.

sniper297
September 22nd, 2012, 08:37 PM
Shemp was the one who wasn't funny, if you're gonna bring Shemp in I'm not gonna play. :p

hminky
September 22nd, 2012, 09:43 PM
TS2013 is the best Railworks yet, big improvement over TS2012:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/virtual/image/2012-09-22_00001.jpg

Since I only like switching, the AI and physics doesn't matter.

Runs a whole lot better than Trainz 12.

Harold

sniper297
September 22nd, 2012, 10:24 PM
That ain't saying much, a three legged turtle runs a whole lot better than Trainz 12. :hehe:
I like switching too, primarily "way freights", which were short haul trains picking up and setting out cars at various industries, crossing mainlines of the bigger railroads they were feeding whenever the dispatcher got a break in traffic to fit them in. For me half the fun is interaction with AI traffic, trying to do all the switching tasks while staying out of their way. Trainz does that very nicely, railworks can't do it at all.

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?310322-What-is-RIGHT-with-Trainz

hminky
September 22nd, 2012, 10:30 PM
I like switching too, primarily "way freights", which were short haul trains picking up and setting out cars at various industries, crossing mainlines of the bigger railroads they were feeding whenever the dispatcher got a break in traffic to fit them in. For me half the fun is interaction with AI traffic, trying to do all the switching tasks while staying out of their way. Trainz does that very nicely, railworks can't do it at all.
Could never stand cab riding, AI traffic is over-rated and I can live without it for a sim that runs smooth.

Love Andre Ming's Arkansas and Ozarks in MSTS. That is really fun.

Way freights what a quaint old idea.

Harold

sniper297
September 22nd, 2012, 10:32 PM
What can I say, I'm a quaint old geezer. :cool:

hminky
September 22nd, 2012, 10:45 PM
I remember when the way freight was the "thing" in model railroading, then the magazines went "big" layout and it became passe.

So much fun! from another old geezer.

Harold

sniper297
September 22nd, 2012, 11:31 PM
The peddler freight is actually more fun on bigger layouts, since that adds the challenge of trying not to "stab" the hotshots on the mainline. Different strokes thing, for those who don't care about AI traffic and are happy being the only train running, railworks is actually the better choice. For me, I had to make a decision between smart and ugly or stupid and pretty. So here I am. Last page of the previous link;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?285908-Attitude-Check!/page11

Note what Mike10 said at the bottom, he was right. :wave:

Robert2d6
September 23rd, 2012, 03:06 AM
TS2013 is the best Railworks yet, big improvement over TS2012:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/virtual/image/2012-09-22_00001.jpg

Since I only like switching, the AI and physics doesn't matter.

Runs a whole lot better than Trainz 12.

Harold

I hear with the new RW you can go up really steep grades with a very long consist, and accelerate with around 10% power. ..

hminky
September 23rd, 2012, 06:44 AM
I hear with the new RW you can go up really steep grades with a very long consist, and accelerate with around 10% power. ..
The worse part about Trainz is it's lack of draw distance. I started with Trainz 2009 on STEAM and is was great. Pull all the way back and spin around and nothing "popped" up or disappeared as the view was spun around. Ran the old Reading and Northern for a long time thinking that was how Trainz worked as Steam never updated.

Got 2010 and all that disappeared with the distance limiter. Bought every version since and having a scene "pop-up" while spinning really tanks switching enjoyment. Just hoping!!

Am beta testing David Peterson's CMTM Jay Street and Trainz12 really isn't fun to play in switching mode. CMTM is a great system but Trainz really ruins it with it's stuttering and wheezing. Try to tell myself that Trainz is fun but it isn't. Having a draw distance of 2000 meters isn't very good in the year 2012. The sparkly Speedtrees really aren't very good on the eyes either.

Have at it "fanbois" but the Jet is crashing to a creaking end. But you can run it as an "App".

Will still run a virgin 2009 to remember how great the old Reading and Northern route is and think of what could have been.

Harold

Robert2d6
September 23rd, 2012, 07:02 AM
The worse part about Trainz is it's lack of draw distance. I started with Trainz 2009 on STEAM and is was great. Pull all the way back and spin around and nothing "popped" up or disappeared as the view was spun around. Ran the old Reading and Northern for a long time thinking that was how Trainz worked as Steam never updated.

Got 2010 and all that disappeared with the distance limiter. Bought every version since and having a scene "pop-up" while spinning really tanks switching enjoyment. Just hoping!!

Am beta testing David Peterson's CMTM Jay Street and Trainz12 really isn't fun to play in switching mode. CMTM is a great system but Trainz really ruins it with it's stuttering and wheezing. Try to tell myself that Trainz is fun but it isn't. Having a draw distance of 2000 meters isn't very good in the year 2012. The sparkly Speedtrees really aren't very good on the eyes either.

Have at it "fanbois" but the Jet is crashing to a creaking end. But you can run it as an "App".

Will still run a virgin 2009 to remember how great the old Reading and Northern route is and think of what could have been.

Harold

Unfortunately no sim is perfect, but I think Trainz is alot better than any of them I have seen , and I tried the other 2 popular one's before I bought Trainz. Shame that this thread seems to be turning into a Trainz bashing session.

Euphod
September 23rd, 2012, 07:08 AM
Shame that this thread seems to be turning into a Trainz bashing session.

No worries; the sooner we shake off the detractors; the better!

boleyd
September 23rd, 2012, 07:32 AM
Having come from the world of RailWorks. my only complaint is that learning Trainz is almost a full time job. RailWorks is a game and therefore if you can't be running your lone train on a built-in route in less than an hour Pong may be more appropriate. The problem with Trainz is that it is a simulator. As such, it is inherently complex (wonderful, thanks). Fun and games + expecting 50 cals mounted on the gondolas is not going to happen - I hope. The greatest asset of Trainz, for me is the DLS. It is also the source of some problems. Its overall value would be enhanced with a few fixes. After all it is just a database and they are not a recent release item. I am starting to see some mention of an SP1 update. A lot of customers are beginning to feel some anxiety as the list of problems has grown but no update. If N3V fixes 80% of the reported issues then happiness will reign, at least in front of my PC.

Railworks has now been erased. I can't help myself but I sneak back to the forums. Same old stuff off the street gamers who never researched rail operations, discussing the fun of using scenarios and getting points on the public scoreboard. The few remaining people who understand railroading are now bemoaning what may be a clampdown on 3rd party addons. After all it is easier to have a closed program than one that has non-vendor stuff strewn all over the Internet and sometimes interfering with the payware routes and assets.

Back to the learning curve on Trainz, the last of the RAILROAD simulators.

hminky
September 23rd, 2012, 07:36 AM
Unfortunately no sim is perfect, but I think Trainz is alot better than any of them I have seen , and I tried the other 2 popular one's before I bought Trainz. Shame that this thread seems to be turning into a Trainz bashing session.
Why is pointing out a huge flaw bashing the game?

I wish Trainz "worked" for me, it has a lot of great features.

If you don't complain the game will never change, all the things that were bashed about Railworks seems to being fixed. Yeah, there was a lot of bashing on "Trainsim.com" where the Railworks fanboys don't go.

They probably can't fix the AI or the physics because the original code is screwed up.

Trainz lack of "draw distance" to me is more important than than anything else. Run a copy of virgin 2009 and see how screwed up Trainz really is in that department.

Harold

Robert2d6
September 23rd, 2012, 07:45 AM
Why is pointing out a huge flaw bashing the game?

I wish Trainz "worked" for me, it has a lot of great features.

If you don't complain the game will never change, all the things that were bashed about Railworks seems to being fixed. Yeah, there was a lot of bashing on "Trainsim.com" where the Railworks fanboys don't go.

They probably can't fix the AI or the physics because the original code is screwed up.

Trainz lack of "draw distance" to me is more important than than anything else. Run a copy of virgin 2009 and see how screwed up Trainz really is in that department.

Harold


:sleep: On and on and On.......yada yada........ First of all, unless all the people posting on the forums dedicated to Railworks are liars, not very many things on the 2013 version have incorporated fixes from the previous version, if any, so it would appear that your statement is not backed up by the facts. Electric lines that are still jagged, AI that doesn't work correctly, inability to easily create scenarios, almost no AI in the free run if any, poor frame rates in some areas, weird sound problems, HO train type dynamics, etc. . As I said before, no sim is perfect, but in my opinion RW has a much longer way to go to reach the level that Trainz is at, and in it's present direction, I frankly doubt it will ever get there.

sniper297
September 23rd, 2012, 10:05 AM
Comparisons are inevitable, if it wasn't for comparisons I wouldn't be here now since I never would have known what Trainz does better than the other two. Main reason you hear so much comparison HERE and not on the forums for the other games is because Trainz is good enough to survive the comparison, the others simply don't have what it takes.

boleyd
September 23rd, 2012, 10:07 AM
I believe that Railworks is a game. Therefore, discussing individual faults that do not enhance the GAME nor bring in more money, are a waste of bandwidth. As the saying goes, it is what it is, or it is what it has become. I went through the divorce. Although I moaned, whined, etc. I always wanted the things that met my interests to be fixed (normally the items are listed here). Over a year ago it was becoming clear that this was the direction - a game as a money maker. Boy was I mad. I and a few others were ignored and the the path to a game started to reveal itself. I set my goal that if the program continued on its apparent commercial path I was going to erase it. I chose the latest update and mentally prepared my self to dump it. Yes it sounds silly that someone could become so wedded to a railroad program. The reason was that it was a hobby and entertained me for many hours during the day. I enjoyed those hours and now because of a decision of a game oriented CEO they were being erased. I believe that a few other people also shared a passion for the program but in other areas. So some were quite upset. I only say this because a portion of people devote a lot of time and money toward a hobby. When that hobby is taken away they are understandably unhappy. The funeral is over and the body is buried and I have no desire to get out the DVD and resurrect Railworks.

JCitron
September 23rd, 2012, 10:17 AM
The worse part about Trainz is it's lack of draw distance. I started with Trainz 2009 on STEAM and is was great. Pull all the way back and spin around and nothing "popped" up or disappeared as the view was spun around. Ran the old Reading and Northern for a long time thinking that was how Trainz worked as Steam never updated.

Got 2010 and all that disappeared with the distance limiter. Bought every version since and having a scene "pop-up" while spinning really tanks switching enjoyment. Just hoping!!

Am beta testing David Peterson's CMTM Jay Street and Trainz12 really isn't fun to play in switching mode. CMTM is a great system but Trainz really ruins it with it's stuttering and wheezing. Try to tell myself that Trainz is fun but it isn't. Having a draw distance of 2000 meters isn't very good in the year 2012. The sparkly Speedtrees really aren't very good on the eyes either.

Have at it "fanbois" but the Jet is crashing to a creaking end. But you can run it as an "App".

Will still run a virgin 2009 to remember how great the old Reading and Northern route is and think of what could have been.

Harold

Harold,

There are a few issues here and in particular with the current versions of Trainz that don't help matters, but before we discuss the current versions, here's a bit of history on the problem. These routes that you're talking about here have lots of spline objects, older buildings without any LOD, and old flipboard trees. This causes lots of stuttering and pausing as the sim has to continuously readjust its self to display the objects. flipboard trees are very taxing on the CPU as they have to be interpreted before they are sent off to the GPU for rendering and finaly display. N3V actually solved this issue pretty well using SpeedTrees. I know you'll groan, like many others here, but it's true. The SpeedTrees are handled close to 100% by the video card instead of needing the CPU for the preprocessing. In the old days, the simulator would just push through the stutters and in many cases crash to the desktop. Starting with TRS2010, N3V decided to put a limiter on the graphics engine to prevent the system from crashing. When the sim "feels" like it's overloaded, the graphics engine will limit the draw distance even with the highest settings enabled. We have complained furiously and loudly in the forums, asking for control over this. The discussion went back and forth as we asked if maybe we could have a slider to control how much the sim feels it's going to crash, but typically of how things go these days, and not just with N3V I may add, our request went unanswered.

I can say that Dave Peterson did a great job with this layout. The problem caused lots of frustration for me as well as I could not figure out what was causing the issue. Then one day, while working on my own route, I noticed that a section that loaded fine previously in TRS2009 and below was acting weird in the newer versions. I deleted the baseboards and rebuilt them using newer buildings, fewer splines, and updated textures. (I'm actually very proud of my renovation too, I may add.) Today this section is one of the best running on my very extensive route. I then went back to Dave's route, which I had downloaded many moons before, and did some renovating. I removed the spline sidewalks and put in newer roads. I modifed Maddies' road with a sidewalk and put cobblestone textures from FMA's roads. By doing this I removed all the indiviual splines and replaced them with a single road. I then embedded the track into the road again and replaced many of the big blocks of buildings with individual ones. This was a lot of work, but it sure was worth it in the end. Sadly all of this ended in vain shortly because my system had a major blow-out and I lost everything except my own route that I had backed up. But I can say it was a learning experience I have never forgotten and have applied the same techniques to other poorly running routes that I have downloaded in the past.

John

nfitzsimmons
September 23rd, 2012, 11:15 AM
What I find a little disturbing here in this thread is the attitude, "The best rail sim,ulator is the one that I like, and anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot."

Everyone has their own needs and preferences; that doesn't make everyone else srupid or wrong.

I play all four of the major sims for the following reasons:

MSTS - The first real rail sim. It has been heavily modded and long-term users know how it works and how to get around most of the original problems. It has a huge number of good routes and equipment available and some of my favorites are only found here.

Railworks - Sometimes I like to take a casual ride and just devote a couple of hours to trainwatching. Of the four I think Railworks has the best graphics. It's fun to watch raindrops obscuring the view in the cab, and the weather changes are better done than Trainz.

Trainz - I have 2009, so I speaking from that perspective. I like Trainz because of the huge amount of items that can be used for route building, and for the AI. Highly detailed routes are easy to build and as an old retired model railroader I appreciate that.

Run8 - OK, it's a newcomer and it's dedicated primarily to multi-player. Currently there is only one route available (but more have been promised) byt the physics are the best, and still being tweaked. It's more like "real" railroading than the others from an operations standpoint, and there's a fairly steep learning curve that requires the engineer to pay careful attention to things like slack, careful throttle operation, and realistic braking.

I play all four in about equal amounts depending on my mood at the moment and enjoy each for what it does well.

So please stop all the finger-pointing at the other fools who don't like "my favorite" and just accept that other people may be looking for different things.

Sometimes this thread (and threads on other forums which cover this topic) seems like a bunch of 4 year-olds in a sandbox.

Act like adults, children.

OK, now everyone is welcome to beat up on me.:D

sniper297
September 23rd, 2012, 11:39 AM
Hold the phone, first off it's no fun acting like an adult, and if I do act like an adult how can I beat up on you?! I'm not playing anymore, this game has too many rules.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/149072_154831271227828_1542250_n.jpg

nfitzsimmons
September 23rd, 2012, 02:02 PM
Maybe that's why you don't comprehend the subtle humor of Shemp.

Robert2d6
September 23rd, 2012, 02:10 PM
Maybe that's why you don't comprehend the subtle humor of Shemp.

Not many folks today are up on people that were popular in the 40's......

nfitzsimmons
September 23rd, 2012, 03:42 PM
And 50's. Sniper and I are of an age.

norfolksouthern37
September 23rd, 2012, 04:02 PM
The worse part about Trainz is it's lack of draw distance.


Trainz lack of "draw distance" to me is more important than than anything else.


taken hours ago in TS12...

http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/thumbnails/thumb_1621.jpg (http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/1621.jpg)

taken days ago in TS12 to illustrate that trainz has better scenery than run 8, and that you can in fact see Caliente from Cliff siding.

http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/thumbnails/thumb_1616.jpg (http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/1616.jpg)


that sure looks like draw distance to me.

Robert2d6
September 23rd, 2012, 04:16 PM
taken hours ago in TS12...

http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/thumbnails/thumb_1621.jpg (http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/1621.jpg)

taken days ago in TS12 to illustrate that trainz has better scenery than run 8, and that you can in fact see Caliente from Cliff siding.

http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/thumbnails/thumb_1616.jpg (http://www.jointedrail.com/images/screenshots/1616.jpg)


that sure looks like draw distance to me.

Run 8 looks really pathetic compared to these shots.

hminky
September 23rd, 2012, 04:20 PM
I can do that too:

Long draw distance on Rollins Pass:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/image/rollins_pass2.jpg

But the far mountains at the beginning are malformed:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/virtual/image/rollins_draw.jpg

and Rollins is a desolate desert route, if there were any urban assets the mountains wouldn't even be visible.

Harold

Vern
September 23rd, 2012, 04:29 PM
Try the same from inside the cab though and the Trainz draw distance limiter will likely kick in with a vengeance.

JCitron
September 23rd, 2012, 04:56 PM
Try replacing the flipboard trees with Speed Trees. You'll see the difference, Harold. The flipboards are a drag on the CPU causing the limiter to kick in.

John

norfolksouthern37
September 23rd, 2012, 05:00 PM
if you can do it too then why do you say it has no draw distance? it either does or it doesn't...

obviously the system is going to change the maximum display based on how many things it has to draw at once, but they key here is to use GOOD content that doesn't needlessly consume resources.

sniper297
September 23rd, 2012, 09:03 PM
If the objective is to avoid using stuff that needlessly consumes resources they should reprogram TADDaemon.exe to stay the hell out of the way until it's needed.

Took a quick surf at UKtrainsim in the new RW (whatever it's called now) 2013 forum, usually full of polite Pollyannas, precocious puppies, pretty ponies, precious posies and Derek's biscuits (tee hee hee), but now they're hollering about the update breaking all the existing freeware by eliminating or relocating old default stuff. I thought the main excuse for not fixing the AI and dispatcher was it might break existing scenarios, and here they broke most existing scenarios including payware ones? Did I miss a memo, and this means they're intending to finally fix the AI after all?

norfolksouthern37
September 23rd, 2012, 09:45 PM
as someone who has been interfacing with TADD lately in programming, i can tell you it doesn't do anything until it is needed.

sniper297
September 23rd, 2012, 10:01 PM
Hee-hee, well SOMETHING is doing SOMETHING, I run TS2010 in a window with task manager open to processes with the most CPU usage at the top, every time I get that 3 to 10 second "pause" I look at TADDaemon and it's popped up near or to the top, anywhere from 10% to 50%.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5387/59397591.jpg

If it's not doing anything why does it need 133 megs of RAM and 20% of the CPU cycles?

Dermmy
September 23rd, 2012, 10:46 PM
I guess it depends how you define 'needed', but it must be 'needed' a lot - it runs almost constantly and really chews huge holes in perfomance. I recently did exactly what Snipe has done and ran the sim with taskmanager on top and Snipe's experience is exactly mine. The 'demon' appears to get computer rescources in preference to the sim. It's rescources spike and the sim stops dead. I'd really like to know just exactly what 'the demon' is and what it does...

sniper297
September 23rd, 2012, 11:29 PM
From what I've been told it's some kind of new asset manager that replaced a bunch of different little asset managers, altho trainzutil.exe occasionally pops up in the processes as well, particularly when the program freezes completely forcing a reboot. TS2009 SP4 introduced the Daemon (Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here) and I was gonna do a head to head performance comparison with TS2009 SP3 (last version without it) but all versions of TS2009 up to and including SP3 were so hopelessly broken I couldn't get any of my usual benchmark routes or sessions working at all in anything earlier than SP4.

Anyway back on topic, what was the topic? Oh yeah, all hands abandon Railworks, every man for himself and devil take the hindmost, women and children will have to look out for themselves. Warts and all I'm stuck with Trainz simply because the ugly old clunker has the operational capabilities I need from a train simulator, none of the others do.

norfolksouthern37
September 24th, 2012, 12:11 AM
without the daemon trainz would not be able to load anything at all from the database. that is what it does, along with some other small tasks. Trainz Asset Database Daemon - meaning the go between to the trainz database. when trainz does not call the database it isnt doing anything. so what i said stands. if your particular machine happens to be outdated and requires multiple trips to the database for your toys you cannot blame that on the daemon, doing what it is supposed to do. you cant really say it gets resources in preference to the sim because it is feeding the sim all the items it is using. if your trainz program freezes momentarily when it does that, it is because it is unable to do it fast enough to keep the game going! now i do recall some cases long ago where it could get stuck and suck up a lot of cpu, (bugs) but i have not heard or experienced any instances of this when the software is up to date. i run 3 copies of TS12 and 2 copies of TS10, none of them suffer from problems in that area.

i will try to explain as simple as possible, if you are in surveyor like the above image, and you open that spline tab the daemon has to populate that tab with items to select, the time this takes depends on how much garbage- er content you have there. so that is one of the times it is needed. if any of those assets are new or modified and have not been validated, trainzutil will also activate and might take even longer to populate the list, but that only happens once unless an asset changes. those things might be slightly annoying on the first go-round but trust me when i say you need them. this takes quite a load off the core program to do other things, like runtime calculations for trains. once the freezing on opening tabs happens for me i dont ever have issues again until i install or modify something else. far as i am aware on my system i only ever notice this in surveyor, and the route selection menu, and only when some content has to be validated.

I am not poking fun at anyone, but iirc (here and other forums) you both have said you run outdated hardware.

jjanmarine3
September 24th, 2012, 12:21 AM
I only run trainz, so I can't talk about other programs, but trainz seems to have found a happy medium for high and low spec systems, if one is lucky enough to be able to afford the best available system one can expect the best performance I guess. I am happy with my system and can only try and save some bucks to get the best available...and not long after that the best is replaced by better :D

Dermmy
September 24th, 2012, 12:22 AM
Warts and all I'm stuck with Trainz simply because the ugly old clunker has the operational capabilities I need from a train simulator, none of the others do.

Which is, I believe, exactly where Dick started this thread!

In all fainess though Trainz is better than an 'ugly old clunker'. It does what it does pretty well - for the most part very well! I have loved Surveyor for years and I would not know how to begin to count the hours that have been spent utterly enraptured by creating routes. On the other hand 'Driver' is something I pretty much use only for screenshots, in fact (I should probably hang my head in shame!) I'm damned if I can really see the appeal in driving pretend trains on pretend routes, about all I ever do in Driver is set something running and hit '3' on the keyboard and sit back and watch the train roll by...

On the Railworks thing (speaking of where Dick started this) I am not qualified to comment. I do own a boxed copy of R'works, but I have never acually gotten around to installing it! MSTS is the only other sim I have actually got to using, and the best thing I can say for that is that the install disks did excellent duty as coasters.....

To each his/her own I guess, but for me Trainz pretty much works and works well - at least it works as well as I need it to work...

Andy...

Dermmy
September 24th, 2012, 12:35 AM
...I am not poking fun at anyone, but iirc (here and other forums) you both have said you run outdated hardware.

Mine is no Cray, but it is way over min specs, the old clunker unit got scrapped 12 months ago. Anyway the issues I have with the demon are not in Surveyor but in Driver. Since I went to an SSD for Trainz the opening-menu-lag thing in surveyor is so close to nothing it doesn't matter (and subsequent openings are instant), it's when the demon starts running in Driver it just sucks the cpu dry. And is isn't loading new assets, or at least it does not appear to be tied to significant screen changes. I expect a slow down, stutter, stall, whatever where the assets list changes dramatically, but taddaemon (or whatever) just seems to take it into it's head to run NOW, no matter what else is going on. Every time it starts, huge CPU spike, huge stall in-game. It is much worse in TS12 than 10, which is one of the main reasons TS10 is my platform of choice and TS12 is uninstalled...

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 01:21 AM
Well, that's what fries me;

Operating System: Windows XP Media Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3
Model: Dell DXP051
CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.40GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 2GB Crucial Ballistix
Video: NVIDIA GeForce GT430 1GB
Sound: SB Audigy
Hard Drives:
C:Western Digital WD5000AAKX-001CA0 462.0 GB 7200rpm
F:SanDisk SDSSDH120GG25 114.5 GB solid state drive

CPU meets minimums, everything else is at or better than recommended specs.

I'm running off the solid state drive and it's STILL horrible, even when I'm not changing tabs - move the camera over a few yards, PAUSE start to stretch out a spline PAUSE select another asset from the same menu PAUSE turn right to look at something else PAUSE take hands off keyboard and mouse to pick my nose for a minute PAUSE it has to consult the database to see what's in my NOSE?! Start driver and it takes 1 to 2 minutes before everything loads even from the SSD - would an SSD less than a year old be wearing out? It seems like it's a lot worse now than it was when I got the SSD, but being senile I can't remember for sure, can't even remember how long I've had it. Anyway cruising along at 40FPS PAUSE stop the train and look to the left PAUSE here comes an AI train PAUSE what is it doing, looking on the download station for those trees PAUSE don't this thing have a local cache PAUSE whatever it is it's irritating as hell.

Anyway, back to the topic:

"On the Railworks thing (speaking of where Dick started this) I am not qualified to comment"

I am, I got railsim in October 2007, finished the last MSTS version of Port Ogden & Northern and proceeded to start the railsim version of Port Ogden & Northern. Which the developers used at a 2008 game show in the UK to demonstrate what was possible with user created content. I made a couple other routes, did some reskins and hacks, including cabview lighting effects, then went to Railworks when that came out and did more routes including Chicago Metro. Which was easier to build in Railworks and looked a lot better, but once it was done it was completely, totally, and hopelessly impossible to even fake the kind of AI traffic you need for Chicago railroading. Phil Skene, Mike10, Justin, and a few others mentioned some of the potential of Trainz AI traffic, so here I am now. Having lived and breathed and developed for the other two trainsims for 9 years I think I am qualified to have an opinion on the difference, and after 2 1/2 years of Trainz my opinion is it ain't pretty and waddles along instead of running smoothly, but it's a lot more versatile for simulating railroad operations than the other two.

boleyd
September 24th, 2012, 07:08 AM
Although not related to the passing and funeral for RailWorks it is interesting to see the comments on the TADD thing. I agree its the thing that gets stuff from storage. What find very interesting is that an SSD DOES NOT make a big difference with stutters/pauses. I almost bought one for that reason. To me it appears that the priority granted to the TADD hickey is too high., or the linkage to the queuing code that passes the stuff to the main program is faulty. I can easily tell if I am going to get stutters somewhere. I just pan the camera around, forcing data load, and stutters happen. The only other program that I now use, Lockheed Martin's P3D (old FSX) pans very smoothly. I am guessing that the horrible stuttering is a fixable item and may take some effort to recode the either the acquisition of the data or its queuing to the main program. Thanks for the SSD info. I saved money and shocking disappointment.

I have to admit that I am disrespectful since I no longer visit the grave of RailWorks aka, the RailSimulations page on Facebook.:wave:

shaneturner12
September 24th, 2012, 07:16 AM
According to sniper297, the reason that TADDaemon causes quite a few stutters is actually because of it's network capabilities.

Shane

Dermmy
September 24th, 2012, 07:47 AM
Wandering off topic, but i wouldn't write off the benefits of an SSD!

I have two installs of TS10/44088 on my system. My 'Working' copy is a huge, fat and very very content heavy install. It has every asset i think I might ever use. My 'Proving' copy is used only to verify non-DLS content and is as lean as I can make it, it contains built-in content plus ONLY the DLS/3rd Party content for my current route.

The 'Working' copy is on an SSD. The 'Proving' copy is on a standard drive. Both drives are dedicated, they contain nothing but the TS10 install. The OS is on its own dedicated SSD. All three disks have identically sized page files. The performance of the 'fat' TS10 install on the SSD absolutely kills the lean, mean install on the traditional HD. It is faster, smoother, and imho the best Trainz investment I ever made....

Andy

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 10:18 AM
Yeah, I copied Silent Hunter IV and Oblivion over to the SSD to check it out, both load faster and have no pauses or stuttering at all on the SSD. Forgot to mention the internet, since I got Trainz back in the spring of 2010 the two things that have NOT changed are the motherboard and the ISP.

375 watt ps / 550 watt ps
Pentium D 2.8 / Pentium D 3.4
1gb RAM / 2gb RAM
Nvidia 8400GS 512mb / Nvidia GT430 1024mb
SigmaTel Audio / Soundblaster audigy
Maxtor 6L160M0 / WD500 - SSD

Just the change from the Maxtor to the Western Digital made a whopping difference for most games that load files from disk, since it has twice the hardware cache and lower seek times. One exception was Trainz, no improvement. My ISP is AT&T DSL (charter cable cranked the price up to $50 per month a few years ago, which won't fit in the budget) and that gets a max of 68kBps when it's in a good mood. So if the theory that TADDaemon checks the internet during its file hunt is correct, that would explain why one guy says there are no pauses, a guy with an identical system gets frequent pauses, and nobody thought to check that the first guy has cable broadband while the second guy is on a cheapskate DSL or even dialup.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 10:40 AM
Yeah, I copied Silent Hunter IV and Oblivion over to the SSD to check it out, both load faster and have no pauses or stuttering at all on the SSD. Forgot to mention the internet, since I got Trainz back in the spring of 2010 the two things that have NOT changed are the motherboard and the ISP.

375 watt ps / 550 watt ps
Pentium D 2.8 / Pentium D 3.4
1gb RAM / 2gb RAM
Nvidia 8400GS 512mb / Nvidia GT430 1024mb
SigmaTel Audio / Soundblaster audigy
Maxtor 6L160M0 / WD500 - SSD

Just the change from the Maxtor to the Western Digital made a whopping difference for most games that load files from disk, since it has twice the hardware cache and lower seek times. One exception was Trainz, no improvement. My ISP is AT&T DSL (charter cable cranked the price up to $50 per month a few years ago, which won't fit in the budget) and that gets a max of 68kBps when it's in a good mood. So if the theory that TADDaemon checks the internet during its file hunt is correct, that would explain why one guy says there are no pauses, a guy with an identical system gets frequent pauses, and nobody thought to check that the first guy has cable broadband while the second guy is on a cheapskate DSL or even dialup.

I have DSL with zero problems. Actually DSL may not have the same download rates as some cable or FO connections, but the rates are more consistent. When people come home at night and start streaming movies and Netflix on a cable modem, the download rates can skid into the dumpster because of high usage.

I guess my question is, if internet communication is what causes TADDaemon to slow your system down, what happens if you shut off your network connection while running Trainz?

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 11:17 AM
Didn't change anything, which is what you would expect if the program is looking for something on the internet - takes a while to find it get a pause, can't find an internet connection and times out, get a pause. As for you having DSL, it comes in many flavors and prices - AT&T packages range from mine (the slowest and cheapest) to 6mbps with various speeds between. My youngest (autistic 23 year old) got a part time job recently so we'll have a little more in the budget, so I might look into how much they want for faster DSL next year (not now, coming into winter heating bill season!) and see if that changes anything. I still think they could do some reprogramming to tweak it.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4285/86648436.jpg

Kris94
September 24th, 2012, 11:18 AM
Don't mean to start anything but why was this posted. I don't see the need for the OP to tell us that he deleted Railworks. I agree that Failworks is garbage though.

norfolksouthern37
September 24th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Well, that's what fries me;

Operating System: Windows XP Media Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3
Model: Dell DXP051
CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.40GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 2GB Crucial Ballistix
Video: NVIDIA GeForce GT430 1GB
Sound: SB Audigy
Hard Drives:
C:Western Digital WD5000AAKX-001CA0 462.0 GB 7200rpm
F:SanDisk SDSSDH120GG25 114.5 GB solid state drive

CPU meets minimums, everything else is at or better than recommended specs.



Not bashing you, but a Pentium D...say no more. I do have a machine here in the house with a Pentium D. i would not attempt to run trainz on it, and if i did, i would not expect it to run well. i personally wouldnt look any further than this. doesnt matter if it is dual core it is one of the first. it is way outdated (05-06) and meeting or barely surpassing minimum specs with it does not mean the game should run fine.



I'm running off the solid state drive and it's STILL horrible, even when I'm not changing tabs - move the camera over a few yards, PAUSE start to stretch out a spline PAUSE select another asset from the same menu PAUSE turn right to look at something else PAUSE take hands off keyboard and mouse to pick my nose for a minute PAUSE it has to consult the database to see what's in my NOSE?! Start driver and it takes 1 to 2 minutes before everything loads even from the SSD - would an SSD less than a year old be wearing out? It seems like it's a lot worse now than it was when I got the SSD, but being senile I can't remember for sure, can't even remember how long I've had it. Anyway cruising along at 40FPS PAUSE stop the train and look to the left PAUSE here comes an AI train PAUSE what is it doing, looking on the download station for those trees PAUSE don't this thing have a local cache PAUSE whatever it is it's irritating as hell.

having an SSD in the above configuration does little or nothing for you. of course the drive will always seek faster, but combine the D with the relatively small amount of RAM and winXP and you still have to do it very often.

TADD does interact with the planet auran account, this is for a variety of things like the game chat etc. it also does downloading from DLS but not during driver. i cannot imagine why this would stop or stutter the game, but i guess anything is possible. i guess what i was getting at is that you seem to have pointed the finger in the direction of TADD "YEP THAT'S IT" and stopped the search there. again, not bashing you or saying you have to upgrade, but you have other things to look at before placing blame on TADD. your opinion of trainz is based a lot on the hardware you choose to operate it on.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 11:28 AM
Not bashing you, but a Pentium D...say no more. I do have a machine here in the house with a Pentium D. i would not attempt to run trainz on it, and if i did, i would not expect it to run well. i personally wouldnt look any further than this. doesnt matter if it is dual core it is one of the first. it is way outdated (05-06) and meeting or barely surpassing minimum specs with it does not mean the game should run fine.



having an SSD in the above configuration does little or nothing for you. of course the drive will always seek faster, but combine the D with the relatively small amount of RAM and winXP and you still have to do it very often.

TADD does interact with the planet auran account, this is for a variety of things like the game chat etc. it also does downloading from DLS but not during driver. i cannot imagine why this would stop or stutter the game, but i guess anything is possible. i guess what i was getting at is that you seem to have pointed the finger in the direction of TADD "YEP THAT'S IT" and stopped the search there. again, not bashing you or saying you have to upgrade, but you have other things to look at before placing blame on TADD. your opinion of trainz is based a lot on the hardware you choose to operate it on.

You can find Pentium D's on Ebay for around $8. Definitely not state of the art in today's digital environment. I was playing around before and started up Task Manager while running Trainz and TADD was basically using no processor power or memory to speak of while Trainz was running a route clicking along at about 65 fps.

QR1408
September 24th, 2012, 11:30 AM
I'm sure the we all have to agree that Railworks is crap even though it seems to perform so much better than Trainz. Maybe someone uninstalling their super Trainz would be big news. BTW no longer run TRS2010, gone back to TC3.
:o

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 11:35 AM
I'm sure the we all have to agree that Railworks is crap even though it seems to perform so much better than Trainz. Maybe someone uninstalling their super Trainz would be big news. BTW no longer run TRS2010, gone back to TC3.
:o

Friend of mine has RW 2013, and a better PC that I do, and there is no way that his performs better than TS12 on my PC. He has stutters, and low FPS in built up areas. It is pretty hurky jerky....

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 11:36 AM
Yeah, I understand all that. My point is you got a motorcycle with a cast lead frame and a top speed of 10mph, you can make it go faster if you put a bigger engine in it instead of replacing the frame with a lighter alloy. You're not addressing the actual problem, you're merely overpowering it.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 11:43 AM
Yeah, I understand all that. My point is you got a motorcycle with a cast lead frame and a top speed of 10mph, you can make it go faster if you put a bigger engine in it instead of replacing the frame with a lighter alloy. You're not addressing the actual problem, you're merely overpowering it.

But trying to run a current piece of software on a 6 year old system, is not going to work well, no matter how the software is written. The way PC's are designed today,, after a couple of years, they are on the back side of the power curve. I read posts on the forums discussing RW3 and 4, and folks there are buying PC's with I7 processors and liquid cooled GPU's and the most expensive Ram they can get, sometimes more than 8GBs, and SSD's, to try and get consistent frame rates in the low 20's. You put a program that demanding on a 6 year old PC, and it probably won't even run.

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 11:46 AM
Almost forgot, Kris; "Don't mean to start anything but why was this posted. I don't see the need for the OP to tell us that he deleted Railworks."

You're in for a world of hurt over the next couple months, someone is gonna order you to guard the garbage cans behind the barracks, walking your post in a military manner keeping always alert and challenging anyone who approaches those garbage cans SIR! You're gonna question why should I guard GARBAGE CANS I don't see the need - and find out what happens to recruits who ask questions. :wave:

norfolksouthern37
September 24th, 2012, 12:13 PM
I'm sure the we all have to agree that Railworks is crap even though it seems to perform so much better than Trainz. Maybe someone uninstalling their super Trainz would be big news. BTW no longer run TRS2010, gone back to TC3.
:o

yes it does perform much better. it is a lot easier to perform better than trainz when you are not doing 10% of what trainz is. :wave:

boleyd
September 24th, 2012, 12:16 PM
The story is behind the story. Anecdotal commentary without specific background does not carry much weight. Yes there may be people who have the willingness to pile on their credit card everything that was in a catalog but did they have the knowledge to take advantage of it. I can say that I always ran myI5-2550 with Railworks max'd except for anti-alais. I ran that on the second notch. 25 to 30 FPS in dense areas - trees, buildings, etc. BUT, lots of trains in a yard caused 10FPS. Since I am a country boy I am not impressed by a big yard. The silly game can't make anything happen in it anyhow except me driving around so I could pick up a car and drop it somewhere. Now that car was a zombie because no one could do a second coupling.

With Trainz setup some switching activity and then run in your local train and drop the last two cars and be on your way. Do this and not get whacked by an AI train. If I had a choice of Railworks and a NY taxi simulator I take the taxi.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 12:19 PM
The story is behind the story. Anecdotal commentary without specific background does not carry much weight. Yes there may be people who have the willingness to pile on their credit card everything that was in a catalog but did they have the knowledge to take advantage of it. I can say that I always ran myI5-2550 with Railworks max'd except for anti-alais. I ran that on the second notch. 25 to 30 FPS in dense areas - trees, buildings, etc. BUT, lots of trains in a yard caused 10FPS. Since I am a country boy I am not impressed by a big yard. The silly game can't make anything happen in it anyhow except me driving around so I could pick up a car and drop it somewhere. Now that car was a zombie because no one could do a second coupling.

With Trainz setup some switching activity and then run in your local train and drop the last two cars and be on your way. Do this and not get whacked by an AI train. If I had a choice of Railworks and a NY taxi simulator I take the taxi.

Didn't know they had a New York Taxi sim, that should be exciting......... :hehe:

Dermmy
September 24th, 2012, 04:23 PM
While acknowledging Kris's comment that we a OT, i think the TADD discussion is worth while.

My latest rig was built specifically for TS12 as a Win7 Ult 64 machine, but damned if I could get TS12 to run well, so i backdated to TS10 XP. It is 100 miles over spec and TS10 runs absolutely smooth as silk EXCEPT when TADD kicks in when it comes to a literal standstill then lurches back to smooth as silk. couple of minutes later TADD > stall > lurch > smooth and so on it goes.

Something I'd never even linked to it though is that the region I live in has the Internet infrastructure from hell - best i can got is 256 ADSL. Maybe I should take the rig to my son's house and plug into his cable and see what happens.

Question is though if it IS a dud i'net conexn why doesn't TAD look for it ONCE, work out it can't find what it's looking for and turn off, why does it have to stick it's head up every two or three minutes????

Andy

EDIT: And I run TS10 because 12 is worse - seems like about every 90 seconds!

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 04:26 PM
While acknowledging Kris's comment that we a OT, i think the TADD discussion is worth while.

My latest rig was built specifically for TS12 as a Win7 Ult 64 machine, but damned if I could get TS12 to run well, so i backdated to TS10 XP. It is 100 miles over spec and TS10 runs absolutely smooth as silk EXCEPT when TADD kicks in when it comes to a literal standstill then lurches back to smooth as silk. couple of minutes later TADD > stall > lurch > smooth and so on it goes.

Something I'd never even linked to it though is that the region I live in has the Internet infrastructure from hell - best i can got is 256 ADSL. Maybe I should take the rig to my son's house and plug into his cable and see what happens.

Question is though if it IS a dud i'net conexn why doesn't TAD look for it ONCE, work out it can't find what it's looking for and turn off, why does it have to stick it's head up every two or three minutes????

Andy

EDIT: And I run TS10 because 12 is worse - seems like about every 90 seconds!

But then what is the explanation for me to be able to run TS12 with my DSL modem disconnected, and I get no hesitations at all and great frame rates? If it is true that TADD is a resource hog when it tries to communicate with the internet, then I should see some effect when this happens.

I just tried and experiment. I fired up TS12, and Task Manager, shut off my DSL modem and started a session.

CPU usage for TADD 0.0 Memory for TADD 179 Megs
CPU Usage for TS12 31% memory for TS12 675 Megs

Ran it for 10 minutes, and nothing changed.

Kris94
September 24th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Almost forgot, Kris; "Don't mean to start anything but why was this posted. I don't see the need for the OP to tell us that he deleted Railworks."

You're in for a world of hurt over the next couple months, someone is gonna order you to guard the garbage cans behind the barracks, walking your post in a military manner keeping always alert and challenging anyone who approaches those garbage cans SIR! You're gonna question why should I guard GARBAGE CANS I don't see the need - and find out what happens to recruits who ask questions. :wave:


Seriously how the hell are you going to compare this to the military. Now that's just plain flat outright stupid. Our taking out the trash and carry our laundry bags up Sand Hill. And marching with our 40 pound rucksack 12 miles. And besides the difference here is flame wars start almost all the time when the word Railworks is presented to us. Taking out the trash is discipline and their way of building us up the Army way. No way those two can be compared. Sorry if I sound harsh but I'm just being honest with you. I don't think the whole world needs to know what you do with Failworks. Besides, if it's related to assistance and insist on talking about it, the the Parts & Labor section would the best place for it.

norfolksouthern37
September 24th, 2012, 05:48 PM
Seriously how the hell are you going to compare this to the military. Now that's just plain flat outright stupid. Our taking out the trash and carry our laundry bags up Sand Hill. And marching with our 40 pound rucksack 12 miles. And besides the difference here is flame wars start almost all the time when the word Railworks is presented to us. Taking out the trash is discipline and their way of building us up the Army way. No way those two can be compared. Sorry if I sound harsh but I'm just being honest with you. I don't think the whole world needs to know what you do with Failworks. Besides, if it's related to assistance and insist on talking about it, the the Parts & Labor section would the best place for it.


I think you are out of line man. it seems to me you arrived in this thread somehow and dont have a clue what is going on to this very post. there was no hint of flamewar until you came in.

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 05:56 PM
It's okay, he'll find out. How I can compare it to the military is because I KNOW. I've been there, done that, spent my 9 weeks in boot camp and a year in schools and four years in the fleet long before you were born. But if some snot nosed recruit thinks he knows better than a veteran, he's in for a rougher ride than most.

RRSignal
September 24th, 2012, 06:05 PM
But then what is the explanation for me to be able to run TS12 with my DSL modem disconnected, and I get no hesitations at all and great frame rates? If it is true that TADD is a resource hog when it tries to communicate with the internet, then I should see some effect when this happens.

I just tried and experiment. I fired up TS12, and Task Manager, shut off my DSL modem and started a session.

CPU usage for TADD 0.0 Memory for TADD 179 Megs
CPU Usage for TS12 31% memory for TS12 675 Megs

Ran it for 10 minutes, and nothing changed.

You and Sniper should probably forward this information to pw3r/Terry. It could be useful. For my part, running ANYTHING offline, with no network connection, produces benefits. The program calls the OS which then calls the stack which then calls the driver; if the stack and driver are unavailable then you'll get an error. The program, that is. I run Trainz on a TOTALLY non-networked machine with no networking stack where none of this "bureaucracy" exists.

Kris94
September 24th, 2012, 06:10 PM
I think you are out of line man. it seems to me you arrived in this thread somehow and dont have a clue what is going on to this very post. there was no hint of flamewar until you came in.

No it's just that every time Railworks is brought up, someone gets made. And if I had made this thread, someone would've scolded me. Besides I've already went through this whole thing. And it should belong in the Parts & labor section.

Kris94
September 24th, 2012, 06:14 PM
It's okay, he'll find out. How I can compare it to the military is because I KNOW. I've been there, done that, spent my 9 weeks in boot camp and a year in schools and four years in the fleet long before you were born. But if some snot nosed recruit thinks he knows better than a veteran, he's in for a rougher ride than most.

Well times have changed. My dad's been in for 29 years. They can't put their hands on you or cuss at you. It's been outlawed. Infantry is no longer at Fort Knox. It's been transferred to Fort Benning. I've watched all of the BCT videos. They don't even use Rifle Bayonet anymore. That's used in the Pugil Combat training. I've gotten everything I need. All I've gotta do is pass this APFT and I'll be E2 or E3. So I'm set. I won't have a problem with the Drill Sergeants. I just hate group disciplinary action.

boleyd
September 24th, 2012, 06:17 PM
I do not think TADD usus the Internet. I can run with the Internet disconnected. I am guessing that it is purely a separate program to handle requests to the DLS for data and then queue that to the main program or one of its threads depending on how the request was made.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 06:38 PM
I do not think TADD usus the Internet. I can run with the Internet disconnected. I am guessing that it is purely a separate program to handle requests to the DLS for data and then queue that to the main program or one of its threads depending on how the request was made.

I think you are correct. That is the conclusion I have come to.

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 06:41 PM
Might be something as simple as this;

http://imageshack.us/a/img337/4059/88859981.jpg

Got an unknown file extension, by default windows wants to search the internet instead of looking on the local hard disk?! Efficiency in programming. :hehe: Might be the same thing, TADDaemon looks on the download station first, then checks the local database to see if the one installed is obsolete or something. Can't find the asset on the DLS it just grabs the installed one, but is programmed to always look for the filename on the DLS first? Dunno. Reporting it to the devs is useless due to the lead motorcycle factor. TADDaemon is pondering imponderables, suddenly decided it wants to look at three 250kB files - joggles the CPU's elbow, "Hey get me these files." The CPU stops what it's doing and searches the hard drive, finds the files and hands them to the Daemon, then goes back to dividing pi by zero.

With a really fast CPU all that takes half a nanosecond, so you'll never notice ANY interruption since it's a zillion times faster than the proverbial blink of an eye. Got a slower CPU and THEN you'll see it even if you're blinking. Trouble is people who program for a living don't have slow CPUs, which makes sense since if you're working all day you want the best equipment. Then they blow the dust off an old clunker in the store room, plug it in and load the program, runs for 10 seconds without crashing so that's the minimum system specs. The marketing guy then crosses his fingers and adjusts the numbers lower to get more sales.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 06:46 PM
Might be something as simple as this;

http://imageshack.us/a/img337/4059/88859981.jpg

Got an unknown file extension, by default windows wants to search the internet instead of looking on the local hard disk?! Efficiency in programming. :hehe: Might be the same thing, TADDaemon looks on the download station first, then checks the local database to see if the one installed is obsolete or something. Can't find the asset on the DLS it just grabs the installed one, but is programmed to always look for the filename on the DLS first? Dunno. Reporting it to the devs is useless due to the lead motorcycle factor. TADDaemon is pondering imponderables, suddenly decided it wants to look at three 250kB files - joggles the CPU's elbow, "Hey get me these files." The CPU stops what it's doing and searches the hard drive, finds the files and hands them to the Daemon, then goes back to dividing pi by zero.

With a really fast CPU all that takes half a nanosecond, so you'll never notice ANY interruption since it's a zillion times faster than the proverbial blink of an eye. Got a slower CPU and THEN you'll see it even if you're blinking. Trouble is people who program for a living don't have slow CPUs, which makes sense since if you're working all day you want the best equipment. Then they blow the dust off an old clunker in the store room, plug it in and load the program, runs for 10 seconds without crashing so that's the minimum system specs. The marketing guy then crosses his fingers and adjusts the numbers lower to get more sales.

Sir, I think there is something wrong with your install and you are seeing things and getting symptoms that are not typical of users of TS12. If I have a program that thousands of people are running with zero problems, and on my PC, it is a train wreck ( no pun intended), then I have to think that blaming the software or it's creators, is probably not the direction that I should focus my troubleshooting attention in. It seems that you don't want to hear this , but some times a dose of reality is a good thing.

clam1952
September 24th, 2012, 06:56 PM
OK enough!
In the interests of experimentation I have just spent 10 minutes testing but online

my results
CPU usage for TADD 0.0 Memory for TADD 189
CPU Usage for TS12 27% memory for TS12 1125 (Probably due to the excessive amount of SpeedTrees)

No CPU spikes, no network activity (used Networx to monitor the lan for internet traffic only) and no difference other than a few k over 10 minutes.

OK that's here but some are seemingly having TADD phoning home?

What's the difference, I can think of one maybe and that is I have never used or loaded any multiplayer routes or for that matter used ichat as I'm not interested, but suppose the Multiplayer rule which presumably is a script is cached in the libraries cache, which seemingly is never emptied or mine isn't. Might it be possible that once it's been loaded, it's getting loaded every time you start driver and trying to establish a connection?

Davie_UCF
September 24th, 2012, 07:10 PM
I love Trainz, since 1.3 i've been using it. I have also got Railworks however, and with quite a bit of payware (all in sales of course). Railworks excels when it comes to the lighting, sound, and general immersion in cab. Other than that Trainz is better to me.

Railworks is great for real world routes andactivities, this is something Trainz seems to lack. I only use Railworks for driving activities, I have never even bothered to attempt to use the editor, it doesn't appeal to me because I know I won't get to set up tons of AI and enjoy my route like I can in Trainz. So for me and where Railworks excels is for driving. 90% of the time in Railworks i'm in the cab, driving a timetable. It works out of the box, you have activities to do and every route comes with them (Granted not many) but trainz doesn't seem to have this side of it where scenarios are created..

If the Trainz Jet Engine could be overhauled giving us decent dynamic lighting, a sense of scale, decent cab sway and better audio it would top RW for me and many others.
The problem I fear, is due to Steam (Which I love, Valve is possibly the best game company in the world), RW has a great great great share of the Train Sim market, with new addons popping up all the time. Most people have never heard of Trainz but have heard of Railworks.
Can't be good for Trainz and the Trainz developers. I think the Railworks guys must be doing quite well with regards to income.

Oh another thing I like about Railworks, as its a UK based company we get a lot of UK content which is rather good!

Pros cons Pros cons Pros cons Pros cons etc.

norfolksouthern37
September 24th, 2012, 08:35 PM
Might be something as simple as this;

Got an unknown file extension, by default windows wants to search the internet instead of looking on the local hard disk?! Efficiency in programming. :hehe: Might be the same thing, TADDaemon looks on the download station first, then checks the local database to see if the one installed is obsolete or something. Can't find the asset on the DLS it just grabs the installed one, but is programmed to always look for the filename on the DLS first? Dunno. Reporting it to the devs is useless due to the lead motorcycle factor. TADDaemon is pondering imponderables, suddenly decided it wants to look at three 250kB files - joggles the CPU's elbow, "Hey get me these files." The CPU stops what it's doing and searches the hard drive, finds the files and hands them to the Daemon, then goes back to dividing pi by zero.

With a really fast CPU all that takes half a nanosecond, so you'll never notice ANY interruption since it's a zillion times faster than the proverbial blink of an eye. Got a slower CPU and THEN you'll see it even if you're blinking. Trouble is people who program for a living don't have slow CPUs, which makes sense since if you're working all day you want the best equipment. Then they blow the dust off an old clunker in the store room, plug it in and load the program, runs for 10 seconds without crashing so that's the minimum system specs. The marketing guy then crosses his fingers and adjusts the numbers lower to get more sales.

OH God of Coconuts WHY?

i can assure you without being one of the motorcycle designers nothing you mentioned above is going on at all!

check your jetlog.txt in the trainz bin folder, it should have a log of what tadd did. see if anything is failing or some other error is logged. if all you see it is delete the occasional cache file on startup and log you in to planet auran (usually within in the first 20 seconds or so) then it is behaving normally.

sparky15
September 24th, 2012, 08:55 PM
O.K., riddle me this. I've been running Trainz on a six year old Mac book pro. I've been through all of the versions listed in my time line including TRS2004 which I never registered. TRS2006 and TC, smooth as glass, no burps or hesitations running full screen all sliders set to max. Along comes TRS2009, TS12 and the Mac version. Have to run windowed, draw distances set low and if it wasn't for Otto's Speedtree waving fix, I would get a slide show. I thought all this new fangled content was supposed to run better. That is what everyone here always says.*
Same hardware, consistent performance fall off using only the supposed best and rehabbed content out there with each release of the program. Sorry, I'm back to TRS2004 and Windows as much as I hate the reboot thing. Please don't play the "buy a new computer to get better performance thing". I thought all these changes in content were for that. Nothing like you'll get better performance now if you just buy better equipment. I don't buy into it. I had full screen, 5000 meter draw distance well before these new releases came out. Now, it's buy more computer to get what you had back when buy more computer to get more out of what you had.*
I'll stay with TC and below and enjoy the Trainz experience. At least it was full screen with no burps, hesitations or lock ups. I couldn't care less about the DLS, new content or anything else. I have a DVD of some great content backed up on several discs and a hard drive. All this talk is pretty useless if you're milking performance out of new hardware and content just to be where you were several years ago.
I run trains in a plausible environment. Even the old CP/CN Geeps are a hoot. Never once thought how bad they look sitting at a red signal as another tooled by. Shame, all my JointedRail stuff is sitting on a disc. As sweet as those payware and freeware locos are, just not worth the hassle of trying to get them to run in game. No fault of JointedRail, all in the Jet engine N3V continues to try and milk. At some point you have to say, "I'm getting off this ride".*
As far as Railworks, I jumped off that ride when Steam was dumped on us. RailSimulator looked great. Not great enough to play the Steam game, though.*
I guess I'm not buying into the rehashed commercialism from ALL of these programs anymore. I didn't like Spiderman 1, I'm not paying to see Spiderman 3, TRS2006 runs like a dream, I'm not dumping cash into TRS??????? and the computer to run it anymore. Especially over those cheesy spline switches past ugly SpeedTrees I guess were introduced to make me forget about them. Same rehabbed game. The new signaling is great, the 5M grid would be cool if it didn't trash performance so much. The rest isn't worth squat.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 09:01 PM
O.K., riddle me this. I've been running Trainz on a six year old Mac book pro. I've been through all of the versions listed in my time line including TRS2004 which I never registered. TRS2006 and TC, smooth as glass, no burps or hesitations running full screen all sliders set to max. Along comes TRS2009, TS12 and the Mac version. Have to run windowed, draw distances set low and if it wasn't for Otto's Speedtree waving fix, I would get a slide show. I thought all this new fangled content was supposed to run better. That is what everyone here always says.*
Same hardware, consistent performance fall off using only the supposed best and rehabbed content out there with each release of the program. Sorry, I'm back to TRS2004 and Windows as much as I hate the reboot thing. Please don't play the "buy a new computer to get better performance thing". I thought all these changes in content were for that. Nothing like you'll get better performance now if you just buy better equipment. I don't buy into it. I had full screen, 5000 meter draw distance well before these new releases came out. Now, it's buy more computer to get what you had back when buy more computer to get more out of what you had.*
I'll stay with TC and below and enjoy the Trainz experience. At least it was full screen with no burps, hesitations or lock ups. I couldn't care less about the DLS, new content or anything else. I have a DVD of some great content backed up on several discs and a hard drive. All this talk is pretty useless if you're milking performance out of new hardware and content just to be where you were several years ago.
I run trains in a plausible environment. Even the old CP/CN Geeps are a hoot. Never once thought how bad they look sitting at a red signal as another tooled by. Shame, all my JointedRail stuff is sitting on a disc. As sweet as those payware and freeware locos are, just not worth the hassle of trying to get them to run in game. No fault of JointedRail, all in the Jet engine N3V continues to try and milk. At some point you have to say, "I'm getting off this ride".*
As far as Railworks, I jumped off that ride when Steam was dumped on us. RailSimulator looked great. Not great enough to play the Steam game, though.*
I guess I'm not buying into the rehashed commercialism from ALL of these programs anymore. I didn't like Spiderman 1, I'm not paying to see Spiderman 3, TRS2006 runs like a dream, I'm not dumping cash into TRS??????? and the computer to run it anymore. Especially over those cheesy spline switches past ugly SpeedTrees I guess were introduced to make me forget about them. Same rehabbed game. The new signaling is great, the 5M grid would be cool if it didn't trash performance so much. The rest isn't worth squat.
]

It's really simple. You are trying to run current software on an antique. That's it. If you have a 6 year old PC, it will run 6 year old software with no problem. Well it's not 2006 any more, and PC's and programs are totally different today. The software developers have to design software that runs on today's machines, not on yesterdays antiques. If they don't, nobody will buy it. There are smart phones today that have more processing power than some of the computers that folks are trying to run railroad sims on. I have been running sim programs for well over 20 years, and to stay current, a new PC every 2-3 years is a minimum to keep up with the software. People want more functionality, more bells and whistles, more eye candy, more AI, better weather, etc. etc. and they try to run it on a computer that was designed to run software that was created almost a decade ago. It's not going to work.

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 09:20 PM
Sparky, you should get Marc Nelson started on JET sometime, lotsa fun. :hehe: Robert, no. I spent two years throwing money at the problem, along with uninstalling and reinstalling XNA and .NET Framework and every driver possible, completely uninstalled the antivirus to see if that was a suspect - in short, yes I DID consider the problem might be on my end, which is why I spent money I couldn't afford to upgrade to minimum (CPU) or better (everything else) trying to overpower the problem. Next step, not showing in my station stops because it's registered in my son's account, I bought TRS2009. Why?

Specification Minimum Specification
OS: Windows XP SP3
Memory: 1GB
Graphics: 64 MB 3D Graphics Card
Processor: Pentium 4 - 2.2Ghz
Hard Drive: 3GB Free Space

Recomended Specification
OS: Windows Vista
Memory: 1.5GB
Graphics: 128 MB 3D Graphics Card
Processor: Pentium 4 - 2.2Ghz
Hard Drive: 4GB Free Space

I beat the pants off of those specs even before throwing all that money at hardware, no idea if it would have performed better because all the versions up to and including service pack 3 were so hopelessly screwed up there was no point even trying to run performance tests - and service pack 4 was the original spawning of the Daemon. Is it on my end? Dunno, I also copied other graphics intensive games to the SSD to test, they all run perfectly. By rights 2009 should run reasonably well on a P4 2.2 because that's what it says on the box - a Pentium D is way faster than a P4, so it should run like a dream instead of waddling like a crippled pregnant turtle. Why it doesn't I have no idea, why three versions of Trainz run so badly while all my other video games run great I have no idea, what exactly TADDaemon is supposed to be doing or not doing I don't care, I've seen it on task manager and I have used internet port monitors, along with memory tests and CPU and GPU temperature monitors, whatever it is I'm tired of troubleshooting after two years, I just wanna play the blasted game and have it work. On this system, which however old it is meets or exceeds specifications for the game. If it was designed to require win 7 64 and an i7 CPU it should have said that on the label.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 09:31 PM
Sparky, you should get Marc Nelson started on JET sometime, lotsa fun. :hehe: Robert, no. I spent two years throwing money at the problem, along with uninstalling and reinstalling XNA and .NET Framework and every driver possible, completely uninstalled the antivirus to see if that was a suspect - in short, yes I DID consider the problem might be on my end, which is why I spent money I couldn't afford to upgrade to minimum (CPU) or better (everything else) trying to overpower the problem. Next step, not showing in my station stops because it's registered in my son's account, I bought TRS2009. Why?

Specification

Minimum Specification
OS: Windows XP SP3
Memory: 1GB
Graphics: 64 MB 3D Graphics Card
Processor: Pentium 4 - 2.2Ghz
Hard Drive: 3GB Free Space

Recomended Specification
OS: Windows Vista
Memory: 1.5GB
Graphics: 128 MB 3D Graphics Card
Processor: Pentium 4 - 2.2Ghz
Hard Drive: 4GB Free Space

I beat the pants off of those specs even before throwing all that money at hardware, no idea if it would have performed better because all the versions up to and including service pack 3 were so hopelessly screwed up there was no point even trying to run performance tests - and service pack 4 was the original spawning of the Daemon. Is it on my end? Dunno, I also copied other graphics intensive games to the SSD to test, they all run perfectly. By rights 2009 should run reasonably well on a P4 2.2 because that's what it says on the box - a Pentium D is way faster than a P4, so it should run like a dream instead of waddling like a crippled pregnant turtle. Why it doesn't I have no idea, why three versions of Trainz run so badly while all my other video games run great I have no idea, what exactly TADDaemon is supposed to be doing or not doing I don't care, I've seen it on task manager and I have used internet port monitors, along with memory tests and CPU and GPU temperature monitors, whatever it is I'm tired of troubleshooting after two years, I just wanna play the blasted game and have it work. On this system, which however old it is meets or exceeds specifications for the game. If it was designed to require win 7 64 and an i7 CPU it should have said that on the label.

Well I have a low end current desktop PC, and TS12 runs great on mine. No stutters, I had frame rates today on S & C that were approaching 70 FPS. Noww either the good fairy is hovering over my home and that is why TS12 runs so well on my rig, or it is because I have windows 7 ( current OS) , 6 gigs of Ram, ( current recommended amount of ram to run today's gaming software as a minimum), and I use Game Booster to shut down unnecessary services prior to starting TS12. So just from an entire career of troubleshooting analog and digital circuitry, that tells me that there is nothing wrong with the TS12 software. If I had to have a $2,000 desktop to make it run well, than I would say that the software has some serious issues, but that is not the case. So if someone tells me that it doesn't run well on their PC, it is obvious to me, that the issue is with their PC , period. It''s not just the processor, it is the data busses, and a host of motherboard design issues than can affect the way a PC behaves. That's why people buy new PC's today rather than throwing new parts at an old unit. You can put a 2012 engine in a 2004 car, and guess what, it is going to run and feel like a 2004 car.

If you get a current PC, with a decent GPU, lots of memory, and a decent hard drive, and put TS12 on it, it will run like a dream. Plain and simple.

sparky15
September 24th, 2012, 09:35 PM
Well, Robert. This new content and software was to enhance performance. Are you saying that this more efficient content would run much better if only I bought new hardware? If only I bought a new computer, the new program would run just as well as the old on my antique system?*
Kind of talking in circles, both of us.*
Those Nikos CSX repaints run great in TRS2006. If they were more efficient and I updated my hardware, they would run just as good in TS12. See what I'm after here? It's like a dog chasing it's tail.*
As far as my antique, it runs every program I NEED it to run, including video editing, all day long without a hiccup. Why would I drop coin for an amusement? Especially when I have versions of that amusement that run very well. DLS access or new releases from other third party creators? Sorry, not enough. When the other 99% of the programs I need require an upgrade or this machine dies, I'll go there. Considering the first Mac I bought in 2001 is still humming and crunching programs I need, it will be a while.*
I don't even like CSX, but, those units Nikos repainted look great and run sweet past Trunda's trees. Even all those favorite rules I used in TS12 and the Mac version are carrying 2.4 builds on them. I give credit for the new signaling, but, I make due very well with the old scripts and rules.*
I've been around a long time as well, my friend. You don't need a new PC every 2-3 years unless you're buying into the commercialism game or a piece of software becomes outdated for your use. Especially in this train game. Choo choos go around the track in TRS2004 and TS12. Not much difference except for supposed new content, DLS access and old content hidden in JA files to avoid the error checker. Same stuff, new rules, buy new to keep up. My 8 year old G5 dual 2.0 running Final Cut Studio 5.0 eats every bit of video I throw at it. The software and hardware are more than adequate for my uses. When the machine dies or the codecs for video changes and obsolete my set up, I'll upgrade. Same with Trainz.*

JCitron
September 24th, 2012, 09:36 PM
Sniper (Jim),

I think your biggest bottleneck is you CPU and RAM on your system.

Pentium D 2.8 / Pentium D 3.4
1gb RAM / 2gb RAM

The Pentium D, no matter how fast they made the chip, does not have the bus width or the cache to handle the information it is supposed to process. Now adding in a smaller amount of system memory at 1-2GB you're seeing a system that is going to cache a lot of its programs to disk. This causes a much bigger drop in performance as now the disk is kicking in too often. If you could bump up your RAM to 4.0 GB, you'd see better performance, but not a super, super increase because that Pentium D still doesn't have a wide enough bus or cache to handle the huge amount of data it is being fed.

On my current system, which has 3 regular 7200 RPM drives from Seagate, I have an i7 - 2.6 and now 24GB of RAM. Heck I did the RAM thing when I got my tax return back in March. The upgrade only cost me $350 bucks at Best Buy. Anyway, with my system, I see little or no stutters in Surveyor or even Driver. After reading your post last night regarding this issue, I ran Process Explorer XP from Sysinternals. http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals and http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653 . I'm not sure if you are familiar with this program, but it's a remake of the famous Task Manager you find in Windows. With ProcXP, you can actually see what items are using memory when viewing the performance graphs, and see how much (in percentage) they are using overall. The amount of memory used is also broken down nicely too as the program shows who is using what as well as what memory heaps are being used. On my system, the performance is listed at > 0.10% of the total CPU when TADD does its thing. I'm sure for others their mileage may vary.

I'm not saying that the way programs are written today is a good thing, but this is what it is and we have to do what we can in order to enjoy the programs we have. Because systems have more resources, the programmers have more leeway to write with more fluent code. The higher OOPs languages are a far cry from Assembler and C++ of so many years ago. Heck I am for using programs that can fit in the old "small memory space" model of 32k versus 64k large memory space compiled programs. I remember doing this when I did some Z-80 Assembler and compiled BASIC programming 30 years ago. It's quite amazing how efficient we could work and still make the programs work they way they did with the limited resources.

John

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 09:47 PM
Well, Robert. This new content and software was to enhance performance. Are you saying that this more efficient content would run much better if only I bought new hardware? If only I bought a new computer, the new program would run just as well as the old on my antique system?*
Kind of talking in circles, both of us.*
Those Nikos CSX repaints run great in TRS2006. If they were more efficient and I updated my hardware, they would run just as good in TS12. See what I'm after here? It's like a dog chasing it's tail.*
As far as my antique, it runs every program I NEED it to run, including video editing, all day long without a hiccup. Why would I drop coin for an amusement? Especially when I have versions of that amusement that run very well. DLS access or new releases from other third party creators? Sorry, not enough. When the other 99% of the programs I need require an upgrade or this machine dies, I'll go there. Considering the first Mac I bought in 2001 is still humming and crunching programs I need, it will be a while.*
I don't even like CSX, but, those units Nikos repainted look great and run sweet past Trunda's trees. Even all those favorite rules I used in TS12 and the Mac version are carrying 2.4 builds on them. I give credit for the new signaling, but, I make due very well with the old scripts and rules.*
I've been around a long time as well, my friend. You don't need a new PC every 2-3 years unless you're buying into the commercialism game or a piece of software becomes outdated for your use. Especially in this train game. Choo choos go around the track in TRS2004 and TS12. Not much difference except for supposed new content, DLS access and old content hidden in JA files to avoid the error checker. Same stuff, new rules, buy new to keep up. My 8 year old G5 dual 2.0 running Final Cut Studio 5.0 eats every bit of video I throw at it. The software and hardware are more than adequate for my uses. When the machine dies or the codecs for video changes and obsolete my set up, I'll upgrade. Same with Trainz.*

Frankly I can't believe that I am reading these comments on a forum dedicated to simulator programs. Go out and read the threads on this forum and the other forums dedicated to both Flight Sims and Railroad Sims. People are constantly complaining that they want more bells and whistles in their sim programs. They don't want the bells and whistles they had 8 years ago to run faster, they want the bells and whistles of today and tomorrow to run faster, and in order to do that you can't run today's software on yesterdays equipment, with an outdated processor, insufficient ram, a slow data buss, and a 500 meg GPU. If you want to run old software that was designed in 2004, then a 2004 PC will work fine. Just don't buy any new software, and you will be able to run it forever, or at least until your PC dies.

JCitron
September 24th, 2012, 09:50 PM
Frankly I can't believe that I am reading these comments on a forum dedicated to simulator programs. Go out and read the threads on this forum and the other forums dedicated to both Flight Sims and Railroad Sims. People are constantly complaining that they want more bells and whistles in their sim programs. They don't want the bells and whistles they had 8 years ago to run faster, they want the bells and whistles of today and tomorrow to run faster, and in order to do that you can't run today's software on yesterdays equipment, with an outdated processor, insufficient ram, a slow data buss, and a 500 meg GPU. If you want to run old software that was designed in 2004, then a 2004 PC will work fine. Just don't buy any new software, and you will be able to run it forever, or at least until your PC dies.

Robert,

This argument has gone around these forums before. It's like screaming at a wall. :)

I agree with you on this and also come from the same background. I used to be a hardware technician many decades ago and now support nearly 700 desktop and laptop users who all seem to get virus infections on Mondays!

John

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 09:58 PM
"low end current desktop", Dell Inspiron 620, I5, GTX 550 TI. I might call that midrange, but I wouldn't call it "low end", especially considering TS12 calls for a Pentium D 3.4GHz and a GeForce 7200.

John, it's not using all the RAM available, the CPU rarely hits 100%, the most common thing I see during the "pauses" is trainz.exe dropping to 0, TADDaemon.exe popping up from 0 to 10%, 20%, or even 60% for a few seconds before dropping back to zero - at which point trainz.exe pops back up to the usual 30% to 80% and it starts running again. Seeing those symptoms time after time what would YOU conclude about TADDaemon cause and effect? And it does the same thing on all three, 2009, 2010, and 12. What else could I have installed that might be interfering? Got Silent Hunter IV and Deus EX 2 and 3 installed, so probably have DRM like Starforce and Securom, but those aren't showing up in the processes tab. "I use Game Booster to shut down unnecessary services" I don't, I don't need it - when I boot up I have no unnecessary processes running in the first place, no google chrome or java automatic update garbage because I get rid of all that when it tries to set itself to automatic startup. Right now I have 32 processes total running with Firefox and content manager, one explorer window and one notepad window and of course task manager itself. It's already about as streamlined as XP gets so enditall or gamebooster don't have anything to do except add one more process.

sparky15
September 24th, 2012, 10:00 PM
Frankly I can't believe that I am reading these comments on a forum dedicated to simulator programs. Go out and read the threads on this forum and the other forums dedicated to both Flight Sims and Railroad Sims. People are constantly complaining that they want more bells and whistles in their sim programs. They don't want the bells and whistles they had 8 years ago to run faster, they want the bells and whistles of today and tomorrow to run faster, and in order to do that you can't run today's software on yesterdays equipment, with an outdated processor, insufficient ram, a slow data buss, and a 500 meg GPU. If you want to run old software that was designed in 2004, then a 2004 PC will work fine. Just don't buy any new software, and you will be able to run it forever, or at least until your PC dies.

Frankly, I can't believe you're commenting on how we need to throw more computer at a simulator that hasn't changed a whole lot in ten years. Same content, same hokey tracks, just now we have SpeedTrees and if you want to access the DLS, deal with it. No different than RailWorks reselling older content if you buy new. For the record, Flight Sim"s Decade of Flight 2004 holds it's own against Flight Sim X or whatever it's called and I'll run Mac Falcon 4.0 on my iMac G3 500 mhz over either of them. I don't need threads on forums to tell me which is better or what I should buy.

JCitron
September 24th, 2012, 10:10 PM
"low end current desktop", Dell Inspiron 620, I5, GTX 550 TI. I might call that midrange, but I wouldn't call it "low end", especially considering TS12 calls for a Pentium D 3.4GHz and a GeForce 7200.

John, it's not using all the RAM available, the CPU rarely hits 100%, the most common thing I see during the "pauses" is trainz.exe dropping to 0, TADDaemon.exe popping up from 0 to 10%, 20%, or even 60% for a few seconds before dropping back to zero - at which point trainz.exe pops back up to the usual 30% to 80% and it starts running again. Seeing those symptoms time after time what would YOU conclude about TADDaemon cause and effect? And it does the same thing on all three, 2009, 2010, and 12. What else could I have installed that might be interfering? Got Silent Hunter IV and Deus EX 2 and 3 installed, so probably have DRM like Starforce and Securom, but those aren't showing up in the processes tab. "I use Game Booster to shut down unnecessary services" I don't, I don't need it - when I boot up I have no unnecessary processes running in the first place, no google chrome or java automatic update garbage because I get rid of all that when it tries to set itself to automatic startup. Right now I have 32 processes total running with Firefox and content manager, one explorer window and one notepad window and of course task manager itself. It's already about as streamlined as XP gets so enditall or gamebooster don't have anything to do except add one more process.

Jim,

You definitely have something going wrong here then. With only 32 processes running, which is really awesome, your system should run quite nicely, although a bit more RAM would be nice. I too have eliminated many startups on my super machine and have brought it down to 54 which includes my antivirus and some system monitoring tools which I have stopped when I don't need them. Without these items, my total load is about 46 processes which is unheard of in most systems with Windows 7. :)

Anyway try http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653 - Systinternals Process Explorer XP. With this program, you can break out who is doing what in the operating system including the ability to look at the subitems within the Service Hosts (svchosts) which are so nicely lumped together in Task Manager. I have actually found viruses or malware that hide themselves in processes in the svchosts. With this utility, you can also stop or even pause processes which can help you eliminate who may be the culprit.

John

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 10:13 PM
Thanks, downloading now. I run Mcafee, Malwarebytes, and Spybot on a regular basis, but you never know.

Robert2d6
September 24th, 2012, 10:27 PM
Jim,

You definitely have something going wrong here then. With only 32 processes running, which is really awesome, your system should run quite nicely, although a bit more RAM would be nice. I too have eliminated many startups on my super machine and have brought it down to 54 which includes my antivirus and some system monitoring tools which I have stopped when I don't need them. Without these items, my total load is about 46 processes which is unheard of in most systems with Windows 7. :)

Anyway try http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653 - Systinternals Process Explorer XP. With this program, you can break out who is doing what in the operating system including the ability to look at the subitems within the Service Hosts (svchosts) which are so nicely lumped together in Task Manager. I have actually found viruses or malware that hide themselves in processes in the svchosts. With this utility, you can also stop or even pause processes which can help you eliminate who may be the culprit.

John

I shut down all that unnecessary activity when I run sim programs. It's really easy today with programs like Game booster. http://www.iobit.com/gamebooster.html

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 10:57 PM
Hee-hee, are you even paying attention? I don't have unnecessary activity to shut down, look at your processes with gamebooster running and tell me how many are left.

John, carrying this over to a new thread so we can continue trashing Don'tWorks in this one - which last time I tried it LOOKED better and RAN smoother than Trainz, but doesn't have anything else going for it or I would be there instead of here. New troubleshooting thread for those who do get these pauses and lockups;

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?93652-Performance-and-pauses-sometimes-quot-freezing-quot

JCitron
September 24th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Thanks, downloading now. I run Mcafee, Malwarebytes, and Spybot on a regular basis, but you never know.

Good luck with your system. Let me/us know what you find. :)

McAfee is not the best antivirus package out there. Having MWBs along with it is an excellent idea. We use the McAfee at work and we're constantly finding bugs with MWBs and find the stuff that McAfee always seems to miss. At home I use Sunbelt's Vipre which is really nice. It runs a very small memory footprint and finds stuff that others do not. At $60.00 for a whole house load of PCs, this is a great package. The individual license is about $30.00 with discounts for renewal. I paid $15.00 a couple of years ago before I did the whole house package.

John

sniper297
September 24th, 2012, 11:06 PM
You musta been typing while I was typing, I carried this to a new thread;

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?93652-Performance-and-pauses-sometimes-quot-freezing-quot

McAfee was my first suspect, completely uninstalled every trace of McAfee and tested Trainz, confirmed that whatever McAfee is doing is not responsible for problems and has no effect on Trainz performance. Which surprised the hell out of me since I was expecting it to be the prime culprit.

Robert2d6
September 25th, 2012, 07:03 AM
Good luck with your system. Let me/us know what you find. :)

McAfee is not the best antivirus package out there. Having MWBs along with it is an excellent idea. We use the McAfee at work and we're constantly finding bugs with MWBs and find the stuff that McAfee always seems to miss. At home I use Sunbelt's Vipre which is really nice. It runs a very small memory footprint and finds stuff that others do not. At $60.00 for a whole house load of PCs, this is a great package. The individual license is about $30.00 with discounts for renewal. I paid $15.00 a couple of years ago before I did the whole house package.

John

McAfee is almost guaranteed to slow your system down, and gamers hardly ever recommend it. One of the best AVs is ESET. It grabs almost 100% of the bad stuff and doesn't bog your system down. I have also had good luck with the Paid AVG. Another one to stay away from if you like gaming is Norton.

Euphod
September 25th, 2012, 07:18 AM
Another one to stay away from if you like gaming is Norton.

I like Norton, but it has occured to me that if it was any good, they would have named it "Ralph".:o

boleyd
September 25th, 2012, 01:27 PM
It is probable that an anti-virus (and many other programs) is not the problem but the stuff on the customer's PC is.
Norton messes up my system but Avire does not. Is Norton bad? I don't know. Comcast gives me a free copy. Probably a few years old that they pay a token$0.10 per user fee. Free ain't enuf in my case.

Padster
September 25th, 2012, 02:32 PM
I too have come to the end of the road with Railworks following the recent chaotic upgrade. Rendering people's payware unusable is a step too far for me, and I cannot now drive trains/build on my route without the good old crash to desktop and SBHH message occuring. RSC seem to be intent on charming the kiddies on x-box rather than keeping simmers happy. Yes, the performance has improved, but that was never for the PC simmer's benefit or it would have been implemented sooner.

Best wishes,
Padster

sniper297
September 25th, 2012, 02:45 PM
I never did get a straight answer on this, some people are reporting tremendous framerate improvement, others say a little improvement - but what are they comparing it to? I pulled the ejection handle before the TSX raindrops on the windshield update, but from what I read that update completely trashed the performance that was so good in the original railworks. So the question is, the performance has improved - but has it improved compared to the raggedy performance of the previous, or compared to the original? Did they at least get back what they had before TSX (whatever it was called, railworks 2 or TS2012), or is it still worse than the original but everyone is delighted because they became used to the sluggishness of TSX ?

An aside here, the hopelessly retarded AI traffic has been "further enhanced" without any actual improvement since railsim back in 2007, yet they poured all their programming resources into realistic raindrop streaks on the windshields? You can't make this stuff up, if it was the theme for a comedy series they would reject the plot as just too silly.

Vern
September 25th, 2012, 03:39 PM
If you believe the over-excited fanbois on UKTS the overall frame rate has improved but, a. It still drops like a stone on densely populated tiles, b. You still get a pause and stutter (including sound dropout) every couple of minutes and, c. The frame rate still constantly cycles up and down like it always did, but they removed the FPS limiter introduced with RW3 which did tame things a bit.

That said, and keeping the thread Trainz relevant, I was not at all impressed by Surveyor (TS12) this afternoon, several times painting terrain textures or trying to move the camera greeted by long pauses. almost lock-ups while the editor played catch up - at one point I was about to reach for the re-boot button but it staggered back into life. This is on a route a whopping 21 miles so all ain't exactly rosy in the Jet engine department, either.

sniper297
September 25th, 2012, 03:50 PM
Pauses? What pauses? :hehe: They keep telling me I need better hardware, JET is Practically Perfect In Every Way.

Robert2d6
September 25th, 2012, 04:14 PM
I never did get a straight answer on this, some people are reporting tremendous framerate improvement, others say a little improvement - but what are they comparing it to? I pulled the ejection handle before the TSX raindrops on the windshield update, but from what I read that update completely trashed the performance that was so good in the original railworks. So the question is, the performance has improved - but has it improved compared to the raggedy performance of the previous, or compared to the original? Did they at least get back what they had before TSX (whatever it was called, railworks 2 or TS2012), or is it still worse than the original but everyone is delighted because they became used to the sluggishness of TSX ?

An aside here, the hopelessly retarded AI traffic has been "further enhanced" without any actual improvement since railsim back in 2007, yet they poured all their programming resources into realistic raindrop streaks on the windshields? You can't make this stuff up, if it was the theme for a comedy series they would reject the plot as just too silly.

Th funniest thing is that Raildriver seems to work for some and not for others, but the X Box controller works for everyone.. there is a bit of programming for you.

sniper297
September 25th, 2012, 04:35 PM
I still have STEAM installed since I still play Half Life 2 occasionally, but I can't be bothered to spend a week downloading Don'tWorks again to actually test anything.

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?310454-Raildriver-fix-for-2013

The ruling on the field is - who cares, the AI is hopeless.
After further review - who cares, the AI is hopeless.

Vern
September 26th, 2012, 02:27 AM
Pauses? What pauses? :hehe: They keep telling me I need better hardware, JET is Practically Perfect In Every Way.

Admittedly this is on the development laptop, but it's still running an I3 chip, 1Gb dedicated ATI 57xx graphics, 4Gb of RAM and 64 bit Win 7. It should chew through Trainz like an overcooked casserole. However the desktop which is a Core 2 Duo 8400 (still a mighty chip) and similar RAM/Gfx etc. still chokes on Appalachian Coal especially if you hit an exterior view it locks the whole thing up.

The slow down has occurred towards the end of primary 3D placement and terrain texturing, no doubt it's also kindly unhooked the splines at my fixed objects again too. I can't remember TRS2006 ever deteriorating like that, though perhaps we were less ambitious in terms of how far from the track we went and the amount of detail. Also TRS2006 didn't have TADLucifer fumbling away underneath hogging system resources. Why does TRS2009 SP4 and onwards need a separate, almost viral (as it doesn't shut down straight away) programme running in the background to manage the assets? Would it not be more efficient embedded in the core programme or did the original Auran programmers, like their Kuju counterparts, fail to leave any notes about how the code worked and the safety pins holding it together? :)

Anyhow, will be going back in to try and signal the route today, will knock draw distance right down, cross my fingers and hope.

The next route I had in mind to build is some 80 miles so real dilemna here. If I build it in Trainz, then I'm going to have to drop back to 10m terrain grid and end up making the terrain either side so narrow people will have their sense of disbelief destroyed seeing baseboard edges. Or do I do it in RW, not knowing whether this week's default assets will be next week's payware purchase or if they will even be there at all!

boleyd
September 26th, 2012, 05:44 AM
Appalachian Coal is bad on my i5 3.4ghz, 8gb, GTX550 1gb.

Below is easily presented in Trainz.

http://imageshack.us/a/img442/7581/rs064.jpg

Robert2d6
September 26th, 2012, 08:44 AM
What is interesting are all the threads from people that still have RW3 on their computer and are terrified that Steam is going to sneak onto their harddrive, when they let their guard down for a second and downgrade their RW3 to RW4, causing them to lose much of their add on content and some functions that they presently enjoy. Thank God, I didn't install steam on my PC, because the idea that I would have to unplug my computer from the internet, which is the advice these people are getting, in order to keep some company like steam from rearranging stuff on my harddrive, without my permission, would really tick me off.

No Steam for me!!

norfolksouthern37
September 26th, 2012, 11:31 AM
this thread is hilarious!

well i tried to play whatever that other game is called now while at work yesterday. i couldn't tell you about it's performance as it never seems much different to me (not bad). i kinda like the shaky cab effect but as usual the controls are sluggish to the mouse and the keyboard. i am sure i would have to configure something to get raildriver to work, and that isnt a big deal except that i cant stay interested that long. the brakes are a joke. whoever says that it is a superior simulator is obviously drunk. a minimum reduction brought my coal train to a screeching halt in about 3 seconds and then it began to roll backwards. then there was a "AI collision" message... wait what? i dont even know what happened. at that point i was done. i checked to make sure my custom engines (GP38s) from the earlier days still worked, and they did so i quit the program, and as usual probably wont start it again until the next update. no matter how many times i try it, i just cant stay interested in it.

kin3
September 26th, 2012, 11:40 AM
That's why I'm back here. AI has to have it's own track and try driving steam engines, not me. Oh and just about everything is payware.

sniper297
September 26th, 2012, 12:11 PM
You're a lot more dedicated than I am Justin, I uploaded a few routes, hacks, asset packs, and a bunch of reskins - not even curious as to whether any of it still works or not, if the AI is hopeless what's the point? Did a lot of work kludging around the way their vehicle paths worked (reversed the direction and turned textures inside out) to get Captain Bazza's steamer running, then they did an update to the vehicle paths;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylTT28nzLhM

They fixed that later, but it seems like they have trouble setting a clock to the correct time given best of three tries so how could they ever fix the AI traffic even if they wanted to?

No, all my railsim/railworks content is abandonware now, all them fanboys who screamed "If you don't like it uninstall it and go away!" can provide railworks tech support now - assuming they're capable.

rjhowie
September 26th, 2012, 07:51 PM
Oh well yet another thread appearing on Trainz re RW. Must the 7th or 8th now surely it must have a Forum of it's own somewhere but on Trainz continually? And as I have pontificated previously i maintain my continuity of expression (!) ! One year we are going to get through 12 months without a long thread on this would-be "competition"! I say so lightly so hopefully we don't go bananas but it does keep getting brought back. :hehe:

Vern
September 27th, 2012, 02:28 AM
RJ - The mods obviously don't mind as after 10 pages I think they would have closed it by now. That said, normally these threads end up in Proto Talk or Community so surprised it hasn't been migrated there.

In any event, RSC seem intent on alienating the user base I don't think you will have too many more years to worry about before the thing is history (which would be a shame as it does have a few good points).

Lots_Trains
September 27th, 2012, 03:07 AM
I hope it will makes it to 90 pages.:hehe:

I've never had anything to do with RW or what ever it is never will have. But I'm glad its there, its keeps this Auran bunch honest, they have a reason to keep improving Trainz. Its good.

One thing about RW there Screen shots always look better than Trainz ones.

But for me AI is the big thing so RW thankx to snipers comments will never get a look in.

Cheers

Lots

sniper297
September 27th, 2012, 03:45 AM
Of course their screenshots look better, it's a screenshot simulator! :hehe: It's one of the few things it DOES do well.

Vern, I'm working on a response to paste in all the threads over at UKtrainsim, think I'll get away with this?

"Biscuits, biscuits, biscuits, biscuits, the AI still don't work, biscuits biscuits. Tee hee hee."

Inside joke, over the last five years whenever somebody brought up suggested fixes or bug reports over at UKtrainsim, someone would start joking about how many "biscuits" (British for cookies or donuts, not sure which) the developers ate while creating new DLC. Others would chime in, run the joke into the ground, and obscure any possibility of a serious discussion about what was wrong with the game. Poor PhilSkene searched in vain for serious answers;

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=306&t=95157

"Nineercharlie" is Phil, he finally he gave up and came back to The Dark Side. Which ain't pretty, it just works better.

Vern
September 27th, 2012, 06:49 AM
Cookies are biscuits, donuts are, erm, donuts.

Seriously though, that very thing used to pee me off when I posted at UKTS and if you did try to re-emphasise a serious point, the mods told you to "move along".

The thread is indeed valuable to N3V as to how not run a train sim franchise, I see at TS this morning another payware developer has thrown in the towel due to RSC's new EULA (amongst other things). So please N3V, regardless of where you take Trainz in the future, keep it on the side of the end users and content creators.

boleyd
September 27th, 2012, 06:58 AM
I saw a performance increase with RWx. I believe I could manage the signalling in RW ok and I can do everything I want in AI except it is too close to impossible to drop a coupled car at the exact point on the track so another second or third car can connect/couple to it. Ok, Jackson spends a few quid and fixes the AI coupling thing. Still, I would never be comfortable being part of a pure gaming community whose objectives are 180 from mine. It would be necessary to double my medication and maybe seek psychiatric help to live in that world. I may have pulled the plug too soon since I would have liked to try some of the new editing features that were uncovered following my erasure. However, once my curiosity was satisfied I would be left with a partial simulation living in a silly world.

With Trainz you can skip over what you may consider a marginal appearance and dig into running a railroad with proper procedures that emulate the real world. That is totally impossible in RWx. You simply can't produce a two hour scenario with several AI trains doing their thing and accomplishing meaningful tasks. However, what we might gain from the RWx Jackson era is info on the viability of using a (dare I say) game controller. Is that better than being tied directly to a keyboard? If RWx had been to my taste that feature sounded very interesting to me. Should it prove to be an improvement to the very few real railroad types left on the dark-side it might be nice to petition N3V to take a look at it.

Robert2d6
September 27th, 2012, 07:28 AM
I saw a performance increase with RWx. I believe I could manage the signalling in RW ok and I can do everything I want in AI except it is too close to impossible to drop a coupled car at the exact point on the track so another second or third car can connect/couple to it. Ok, Jackson spends a few quid and fixes the AI coupling thing. Still, I would never be comfortable being part of a pure gaming community whose objectives are 180 from mine. It would be necessary to double my medication and maybe seek psychiatric help to live in that world. I may have pulled the plug too soon since I would have liked to try some of the new editing features that were uncovered following my erasure. However, once my curiosity was satisfied I would be left with a partial simulation living in a silly world.

With Trainz you can skip over what you may consider a marginal appearance and dig into running a railroad with proper procedures that emulate the real world. That is totally impossible in RWx. You simply can't produce a two hour scenario with several AI trains doing their thing and accomplishing meaningful tasks. However, what we might gain from the RWx Jackson era is info on the viability of using a (dare I say) game controller. Is that better than being tied directly to a keyboard? If RWx had been to my taste that feature sounded very interesting to me. Should it prove to be an improvement to the very few real railroad types left on the dark-side it might be nice to petition N3V to take a look at it.

Best Game controller is Raildriver.

norfolksouthern37
September 27th, 2012, 11:21 AM
One thing about RW there Screen shots always look better than Trainz ones.

was playing Trainz the other day on a route that is included in RW and i was thinking, this is SO much better than that game... so much. one of the screenshots is in this thread already if i am not mistaken, and it certainly cant be beat by RW, so i have to disagree with your statement.

Vern
September 27th, 2012, 11:55 AM
I must admit I have been making use of the XBox 360 Controller in RW and it is maybe something for the Trainz Suggestion Boxcar for a future version. I was entirely sceptical at first but sitting back in the chair rather than hunched over KBM is probably more healthy.

rjhowie
September 27th, 2012, 07:57 PM
With a long sigh and silent groan, I note what you say Vern! Will of course exercise my option of ignoring such threads in future! :)

JCitron
September 27th, 2012, 08:44 PM
I never saw this as an RW versus Trainz thread. Instead this thread took may different turns, twists, and rotations but a lot of good has come out in the process with discussions on hardware as well as the program differences. There was a bit of bickering and fluffing up of simulators but the civility remained through out.

John

cascaderailroad
December 24th, 2012, 04:52 AM
Walking through Walmart, I spied Railworks TS2013 for $19.95 (I think that is way overpriced).

I bought it ... but may return it, unopened.

As from what I hear that the Railworks PC specs are very demanding.

And in order to run the Horseshoe route (an additional $14.95) I would also have to purchase the Baldwin Centipede, and K4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPMISwIR02g

You have to admit that the lighting, rain, and other details look pretty darn good.

TheWaluigiKing
December 24th, 2012, 05:05 AM
I Saw it for $36 at EB Games...

Robert2d6
December 24th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Friend of Mine had Railworks, and finally deleted it for Trainz. The frame rates he had were horrible and he had an I7 PC, with a GTX 650 and 8 Gigs of ram. Sometimes he would get frame rates in the teens, and the program also crashed alot.

Barry
December 24th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Post wthdrawn - as decided not to bother. B.

RoysTrainz
December 24th, 2012, 07:20 PM
Friend of Mine had Railworks, and finally deleted it for Trainz. The frame rates he had were horrible and he had an I7 PC, with a GTX 650 and 8 Gigs of ram. Sometimes he would get frame rates in the teens, and the program also crashed alot.

Hey bob, so this RW stuff is still the same grey area where innocent bystanders buy a hotdog and shoke after there the first bite?
I remember I bougth TS13 7 usd or something still not opened it to see waz new reading others experiences safes me time and grumpy feelings of OMG still same mascara picture/video show.....

Roy

cascaderailroad
December 25th, 2012, 05:13 PM
My GF put it exactly:"What do you get out of a train game" ? "You put down tracks, and run a train on it" ? "It doesn't sound like a very fun game" ! "Sounds very boring" !

styckx
December 26th, 2012, 01:18 PM
Add me to the list.. After returning to Railworks after deleting it 8 months prior and running into the same old stupid problems that plague that thing, I made a promise to myself to legitimately give Trainz a try.. Not the typical "I tried it for a few minutes it looked like a toy, it sucks, I deleted it". Which I've done before. (how I own 09 and 10) I mean actually sitting down and figuring out what it does, what makes it tick and how I can make it tick louder. Yeah... It's my primary simulator now.. Every stereotype about this sim came slapping me in the face as just that.. An awful stereotype.. And I was wrong for spreading those stereotypes and defending the money vacuum polygon pusher. Philskene and Sniper are getting me through some of the learning curves I couldn't pick up on naturally.. I can't believe I'm actually having fun playing a train simulator and not endlessly flipping over the keyboard in frustration because 2+2=5 on a regular basis with the other one.

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 01:42 PM
Add me to the list.. After returning to Railworks after deleting it 8 months prior and running into the same old stupid problems that plague that thing, I made a promise to myself to legitimately give Trainz a try.. Not the typical "I tried it for a few minutes it looked like a toy, it sucks, I deleted it". Which I've done before. (how I own 09 and 10) I mean actually sitting down and figuring out what it does, what makes it tick and how I can make it tick louder. Yeah... It's my primary simulator now.. Every stereotype about this sim came slapping me in the face as just that.. An awful stereotype.. And I was wrong for spreading those stereotypes and defending the money vacuum polygon pusher. Philskene and Sniper are getting me through some of the learning curves I couldn't pick up on naturally.. I can't believe I'm actually having fun playing a train simulator and not endlessly flipping over the keyboard in frustration because 2+2=5 on a regular basis with the other one.

What really ticks me off are the people that call Trainz "cartoonish" and not at all real. Does this look "cartoonish"????

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/robert2d6/Trainz Albums/CoumbiaRiver2_zps5c3dcccc.jpg



http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/robert2d6/Trainz Albums/Columbiaroute_zpsfd039345.jpg



http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b598/robert2d6/Trainz Albums/Maine_zpsc1aeca83.jpg

haddock56
December 26th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Count me in that pack too. I tried Railworks and was impressed with the scenery detail. But having been more involved with Trainz for much longer, dating to my old copy of Trainz 2006 (a lot of good memories there) I'm staying with Trainz and not going nowhere else. The forums make it a lot more interesting (and helpful, not to mention some awesome creations and content releases) and while I give the producers of Railworks credit for the scenery detail, Trainz comes out on top hands down no competition whatsoever. Think it's safe to say I'll be around for a long, long time.

raildumper
December 26th, 2012, 02:32 PM
What really ticks me off are the people that call Trainz "cartoonish" and not at all real. Does this look "cartoonish"????



It does. It has no shadows. Looks all very flat. Most people here are comparing features, if you compare graphics, Trainz has no chance.

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 02:43 PM
It does. It has no shadows. Looks all very flat.

Shadows are turned off. I find them unnecessary frame rate gobblers, and they add nothing for my enjoyment of a sim. I am spoiled with frame rates in the 60s... not happening in RW...... :p Since you made the statement you did, how about posting something with shadows that isn't flat along with the frame rates you got while taking the screen shot? Will be waiting.

haddock56
December 26th, 2012, 02:52 PM
It does. It has no shadows. Looks all very flat. Most people here are comparing features, if you compare graphics, Trainz has no chance.

Umm if you take the graphics route then Trainz has a very good chance. To illustrate: I ran both the Trainz version and Railworks version of Sherman Hill. Trainz performed exceptionally well on my pc, while Railworks lagged bc of the scenery detail. Only after I was out on the main line did the frame rates improve, and it wasn't even that much of an improvement. And some people like shadows, other's don't. So your statement about Trainz is unfounded and definitely not true. And another thing: Railworks only has payware content. I don't want to have to send $5-10 every time I want to add new content. Trainz Railroad Simulator far outstrips Railworks in more areas than one.

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 03:16 PM
Umm if you take the graphics route then Trainz has a very good chance. To illustrate: I ran both the Trainz version and Railworks version of Sherman Hill. Trainz performed exceptionally well on my pc, while Railworks lagged bc of the scenery detail. Only after I was out on the main line did the frame rates improve, and it wasn't even that much of an improvement. And some people like shadows, other's don't. So your statement about Trainz is unfounded and definitely not true. And another thing: Railworks only has payware content. I don't want to have to send $5-10 every time I want to add new content. Trainz Railroad Simulator far outstrips Railworks in more areas than one.

The worst things about Railworks are the AI and the physics. Going up a 3% grade at 1 notch of throttle with a fully loaded train, is not my idea of anything but a kids game.

raildumper
December 26th, 2012, 03:37 PM
The worst things about Railworks are the AI and the physics. Going up a 3% grade at 1 notch of throttle with a fully loaded train, is not my idea of anything but a kids game.

Going up a 3% grade at 1 notch of throttle all depends on the creator of that locomotive. There are setups for it, just like in Trainz. My idea idea of a kids game is : unrealistic looking turnouts, unrealistic curves and unrealistic flat graphics.

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 04:01 PM
Umm if you take the graphics route then Trainz has a very good chance. To illustrate: I ran both the Trainz version and Railworks version of Sherman Hill. Trainz performed exceptionally well on my pc, while Railworks lagged bc of the scenery detail. Only after I was out on the main line did the frame rates improve, and it wasn't even that much of an improvement. And some people like shadows, other's don't. So your statement about Trainz is unfounded and definitely not true. And another thing: Railworks only has payware content. I don't want to have to send $5-10 every time I want to add new content. Trainz Railroad Simulator far outstrips Railworks in more areas than one.

I have a flight-sim friend that has a fairly new $2,000 gaming PC, and Railworks runs like a lead balloon on it. Frame rates in the 20's if he is lucky, and stutters galore. If he turns everything off , it is passable. I think he paid about $4 for Railworks last year when they had a sale, and he still feels like he was overcharged.

styckx
December 26th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Umm if you take the graphics route then Trainz has a very good chance. To illustrate: I ran both the Trainz version and Railworks version of Sherman Hill. Trainz performed exceptionally well on my pc, while Railworks lagged bc of the scenery detail. Only after I was out on the main line did the frame rates improve, and it wasn't even that much of an improvement. And some people like shadows, other's don't. So your statement about Trainz is unfounded and definitely not true. And another thing: Railworks only has payware content. I don't want to have to send $5-10 every time I want to add new content. Trainz Railroad Simulator far outstrips Railworks in more areas than one.

Plus honestly, I think most who are deleting up to 50GB worth of product in exchange for 7GB worth of product because they are happier aren't caring too much about graphics superiority. For me it boils down to form and function and Trainz blew me away..

Graphically though, it does a fine job and depending on the route I've already seen it hold its own with Railworks.

I also wasted no time stripping the paint jobs off freeware and repainting it for my personal railroad.. :D

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8311197303_95967a5cc6_o.jpg

raildumper
December 26th, 2012, 04:13 PM
I have a flight-sim friend that has a fairly new $2,000 gaming PC, and Railworks runs like a lead balloon on it. .

Something is wrong with his PC. My Intel i7 2.6 with 6MB Ram and nVidia GTX 560 runs Railworks like a charm. (Or you are lying, I can see from other posts of yours you are a fanboy) Be honest

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 04:18 PM
Something is wrong with his PC. My Intel i7 2.6 with 6MB Ram and nVidia GTX 560 runs Railworks like a charm. (Or you are lying, I can see from other posts of yours you are a fanboy) Be honest

I think you are a rude arrogant troll trying to stir up hate and discontent on a Trainz forum, but that's just my opinion. Others will think what they want.

raildumper
December 26th, 2012, 04:27 PM
I think you are the troll and trying to make people purchase an outdated sim.
By the way, i also think RS.com should sue this site for all lies about their sim posted here, It is harming their sales for no reason, just because their sim is focused a different way. I guess N3V is very happy with it, thatīs why this thread is not closed yet.

shaneturner12
December 26th, 2012, 04:34 PM
That would be difficult, as they would have to prove that what was said is false, which is not always easy.

Anyway, one of the major things holding RW back is the fact that they will only use Steam for distribution (correct me if I'm wrong there), which some users do not like due to the restrictions placed on users as well as giving Valve the ability to terminate the account of any user without warning. Also, from my own experience, the Steam client also uses a lot of memory, which is not good if the system it is running on does not have much memory.

Shane

sniper297
December 26th, 2012, 04:39 PM
"Going up a 3% grade at 1 notch of throttle all depends on the creator of that locomotive. There are setups for it, just like in Trainz."

Disagree, with Trainz you have one engine spec file to fool with, railworks has a whole bunch of complicated files with internal paths and incoherent programming language apparently made up during a KUJU office party. You have to start with editing the loco's BIN file to point to the engine simulation folder you intend to hack, then wade through all the

<EngineSimulationContainer>
<cEngineSimContainerBlueprint>
<EngineSimFile>
<iBlueprintLibrary-cAbsoluteBlueprintID>
<BlueprintSetID>
<iBlueprintLibrary-cBlueprintSetID>
<Provider d:type="cDeltaString">Kuju</Provider>
<Product d:type="cDeltaString">RailSimulatorUS</Product>
</iBlueprintLibrary-cBlueprintSetID>
</BlueprintSetID>
<BlueprintID d:type="cDeltaString">RailVehicles\Diesel\SD40-2\Default\Simulation\SD40-2 Engine Simulation.xml</BlueprintID>
</iBlueprintLibrary-cAbsoluteBlueprintID>
</EngineSimFile>
</cEngineSimContainerBlueprint>
</EngineSimulationContainer>

fluff for each bit of data to make sure it's pointing to the correct folder before you even start changing values. When you do finally get it all working you discover the core physics pays no attention whatsoever to loaded versus empty, in fact the resistance is calculated at the start of the scenario - so if, for example, you start with a single GP9 and couple onto 100 loaded coal hoppers you can run full tilt boogie up a 4% grade because the physics is now set for a single GP9 with nothing coupled on. If you start with the GP9 coupled onto that 100 car train you won't be able to move even after uncoupling because the weight stays with the loco. Load or unload all cars in the train and the weight is the same, couple on more cars or uncouple half the cars and the weight stays the same. The game was programmed for British commuter rail and does not adapt well to anything else.

"My idea idea of a kids game is : unrealistic looking turnouts, unrealistic curves and unrealistic flat graphics."

Now there I agree with you, it's all a matter of taste but in my opinion railworks looks better, but it's not much good for anything except screenshots. If them KUJU Klutzes could make tracklaying tools that were easy to use and generated realistic looking switches with ease on their first try, why can't Auran/N3V do it after all these years? Incorporate the Railworks tracklaying tools and switches into Trainz and you would have a perfect simulator in my book.

styckx
December 26th, 2012, 05:17 PM
^^ That about sums it up. The running joke was RSC had a folder labeled "physics" and if they were building an American engine they would just copy and paste the SD40-2 or F7 simulation file over into the new engine over and over again. Then they eventually started changing things but then everything was so drastically inconsistent with each other the physics instead of being linearly wrong were now fragmented to heck wrong. They still sell items that putting your engine into step 1 dynamics will send a 100 car train into orbit. They gobbled up all the good free lance developers, slowly but surely closing off the sim from end user development and pump out payware like a Chinese sweatshop. Freeware if it's good usually ends up to the 1/2 way finished stage then RSC will scoop them up and have them develop for them. I swear everyone works for them now. And don't get me started with all leftover freelancers charging money for everything from soundpacks stolen from youtube clips to modded locomotive physics.

JCitron
December 26th, 2012, 06:17 PM
I think you are the troll and trying to make people purchase an outdated sim.
By the way, i also think RS.com should sue this site for all lies about their sim posted here, It is harming their sales for no reason, just because their sim is focused a different way. I guess N3V is very happy with it, thatīs why this thread is not closed yet.

As Shane says, this would be impossible to do, besides the internet is open to free speech unless you live in a place like China where everything is censored. If anything, Railsim.com should be in trouble. Isn't it interesting that their Train Simulator 2012 is named similar to N3V's Trainz Simulator TS12, and they both came out at the same time. The Trainz version was announced ahead of the RWs version. Hmmm.... yet N3V never bothered to do anything about it, at least we haven't heard anything on that side. So, let the public determine which product is better.

If you want playability with decent graphics, decent AI control, and an easy to use construction environment, go with Trainz. If you want pretty pictures with canned AI, go with RW. It's that simple. Remember too that there's always going to be a trade-off in one area or another just like there is when buying a car. Some brands and models have more, better, features than others, and you can't always have the best of both, so you have to compromise. And, to be honest, I would rather have a program that's easy to use. I have the old MSTS and that was no picnic to try to build or modify routes in. There were things I liked in it though such as the Activity Manager with the ability to edit schedules easily, but that was about it. I couldn't lay tracks for beans in the route editor, and the bloody thing would crash anyway when I did get it to work. From what I've read, and yes I did consider getting RW at one time, that the crashes and awkwardness is still there. When Trainz came along, it was like night and day. No, the program isn't perfect, it does crash on occasion, but it's a heck of a lot easier to get the AI to do what I want, and for me to build things that I want. There's no reason to make things so awkward and complicated, not in this day and age, with OOPS programming tools, and drag and drop graphic interfaces.

So, if you're happy with your RW, that's great. Enjoy your game. (shh! I shouldn't have said game!). There's no reason to have to get so snippy and snotty about it. There's no reason to defend your purchase like that. You are acting as though you're on the defensive, or trying to justify to yourself that you made the right decision. If anything, it is still a game, and you can even have both on your hard drive if you want.

John

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 06:56 PM
I think you are the troll and trying to make people purchase an outdated sim.
By the way, i also think RS.com should sue this site for all lies about their sim posted here, It is harming their sales for no reason, just because their sim is focused a different way. I guess N3V is very happy with it, thatīs why this thread is not closed yet.

If you are such a Railworks aficionado, then why don't you explain to the rest of us why you choose to hang out on a Trainz forum. Either you are a rather stupid person and can't figure out that you are in the wrong place, or you are just trying to stir up hate and discontent. My vote is for both of the options that I have just offered.

sniper297
December 26th, 2012, 08:45 PM
That's been a common tinfoil hat idea since rail simulator first came out in October 2007, anyone who complained about the lack of simulation features was part of "a conspiracy to make it fail". Which presupposes that any potential customers would read the first negative post, take it as gospel (after all if I read it on the internet it MUST be true) and not buy the game (apparently all potential customers are incapable of making up their own minds so they let strangers make all their decisions for them) therefore sending the company into bankruptcy. :hehe: Which obviously hasn't happened since the company is still here. From my perspective the only real mistake was not marketing it as a "train driving game" for casual players from the start, by billing it as a simulator, people who understand railroading expected certain standards which the game never had and never will have. Trainz is not in competition with railworks for the same reason it's not in competition with Railroad Tycoon, it's actually a completely different genre designed to appeal to a different market.

hminky
December 26th, 2012, 08:57 PM
If you are such a Railworks aficionado, then why don't you explain to the rest of us why you choose to hang out on a Trainz forum. Either you are a rather stupid person and can't figure out that you are in the wrong place, or you are just trying to stir up hate and discontent. My vote is for both of the options that I have just offered.
Or putting on my tin-foil hat, heavy duty foil at that, the Railwork's trolls seem to magically appear when Railworks is on sale.

Followed by a gazillion posts declaring Trainz as the one true religion. Keepin' the herd.

Just sayin'
Harold

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 09:01 PM
Or putting on my tin-foil hat, heavy duty foil at that, the Railwork's trolls seem to magically appear when Railworks is on sale.

Followed by a gazillion posts declaring Trainz as the one true religion. Keepin' the herd.

Just sayin'
Harold

It seems Railworks is always on sale, couple of people I know bought it when it was about $4, sometime this past summer. Two people that I know, said in their opinion, even at that price point, it was no bargain.

cascaderailroad
December 26th, 2012, 09:02 PM
Why can't a simple educated discussion take place on this forum ?

In this case the pro's vs con's of Trainz vs Railworks.

It always turns into name calling, insults, and personal attacks.

Can't we have a civil conversation/discussion without all the attacks ?

Robert2d6
December 26th, 2012, 09:06 PM
Why can't a simple educated discussion take place on this forum ?

In this case the pro's vs con's of Trainz vs Railworks.

It always turns into name calling, insults, and personal attacks.

Can't we have a civil conversation/discussion without all the attacks ?

I agree, and if the person on the Trainz forum putting Trainz down, had refrained from calling me a liar, maybe the personal attacks would not have started,

JCitron
December 26th, 2012, 09:28 PM
I agree, and if the person on the Trainz forum putting Trainz down, had refrained from calling me a liar, maybe the personal attacks would not have started,

I agree too. I almost slapped him with a few spikey words, but kept things quiet, hoping he'd get the drift.

I still think he feels guilty of purchasing Rail Works, and has become defensive about it. It's like when you call the cards out on someone they retort with "Whatever!"

John

Enzo1
December 26th, 2012, 09:44 PM
Guys, guys! Calm down! I have both Trainz and Train simulator 2013, I love both and play both! I dont see whats wrong with having 2 train sims to get some fun out of... A train simulator is a train simulator.. It only simulates like what the real thing would be like... The only way to get to experience realism of railroading is too drive a real train... When you have driven a real train under real conditions, then you can come back and say what sim is more realistic, untill then, they are both fun to play and both are very enjoyable...

rjhowie
December 26th, 2012, 10:05 PM
Each time someone has felt the ned to bring up a thread about (sssh, you-know-what), I have passingly given a polite but regular wee moan. That has been based on the fact that it leads to confrontations here on Trainz! Basically each time a thread insists bn appearing here it is the same arguments but an effort to make the discussion different.In turn that leads to a repetitive negativism. We know Trainz has far more to offer and easy to build stuff and RW (oops, mentioned it!) is more limited. I dare say I will be waiting until the need to have long chats here or arguments regarding the competition soon reaching double figures in threads. Being a staunch Glaswegian I will give out a loud groan and take the train to Edinburgh which is a terrible thing for a Glasgow man to admit to! :'(

JCitron
December 26th, 2012, 10:50 PM
Guys, guys! Calm down! I have both Trainz and Train simulator 2013, I love both and play both! I dont see whats wrong with having 2 train sims to get some fun out of... A train simulator is a train simulator.. It only simulates like what the real thing would be like... The only way to get to experience realism of railroading is too drive a real train... When you have driven a real train under real conditions, then you can come back and say what sim is more realistic, untill then, they are both fun to play and both are very enjoyable...

Well said, Chris.

So your hard drive hasn't barfed yet having both sims loaded. :)

I've said this before. Load both, who cares, as long as your happy. No one will come to your house and take your computer or train simulators away, at least not yet. :)

John

Enzo1
December 26th, 2012, 11:27 PM
Well said, Chris.

So your hard drive hasn't barfed yet having both sims loaded. :)

I've said this before. Load both, who cares, as long as your happy. No one will come to your house and take your computer or train simulators away, at least not yet. :)

John

Not yet, waiting for the day it finally decides to take that final crap... That day will be such a sad one too LOL! HDD has been working hard for 5 years now.. I recently got a new graphics card to replace my 9600GT which was 4 years old and worked great without any issues... Now have an NIVIDA 9800GT... Only issue with RW is its complicated to find your installed payware and to make a video of it.. I use Bandicam and for some reason it goes from running 40-50FPS to a crappy 7 FPS... So I have yet to figure that one out.. Other than that I play both at least one hour everyday and enjoy both, as both really have great communities! I am quite the train fan, so if I could find one, next up would be MSTS and I would be all set... But I am not sure if my 5-6 year old computer can handle all 3... And for you: You keep on having fun as well whether it be in Trainz, Railworks, or MSTS! Just kick back, relax, and run some trains, and enjoy life like you were running the railroads of your dreams!
Happy New years!
And as always! Have fun!
Chris/Enzo1

JCitron
December 26th, 2012, 11:46 PM
Not yet, waiting for the day it finally decides to take that final crap... That day will be such a sad one too LOL! HDD has been working hard for 5 years now.. I recently got a new graphics card to replace my 9600GT which was 4 years old and worked great without any issues... Now have an NIVIDA 9800GT... Only issue with RW is its complicated to find your installed payware and to make a video of it.. I use Bandicam and for some reason it goes from running 40-50FPS to a crappy 7 FPS... So I have yet to figure that one out.. Other than that I play both at least one hour everyday and enjoy both, as both really have great communities! I am quite the train fan, so if I could find one, next up would be MSTS and I would be all set... But I am not sure if my 5-6 year old computer can handle all 3... And for you: You keep on having fun as well whether it be in Trainz, Railworks, or MSTS! Just kick back, relax, and run some trains, and enjoy life like you were running the railroads of your dreams!
Happy New years!
And as always! Have fun!
Chris/Enzo1

MSTS should run fine on that hardware. That was 2000 era technology, or about the time of the earliest Trainz version. :) Finding an active MSTS community might be difficult. When Microsoft had theirs, I was quite active in their forum. In the end, it became a spam haven. Shortly after that, the forum closed down.

Those are great video cards, although now getting a bit worn out now with the heavier and more demanding graphics. This would explain Bandi-Cam killing the FPS on you. There just isn't enough bandwidth between the software and drawing the video. I saw this with Fraps and an old video card I had. I'd load Fraps and my system would die. After I upgraded to my much later, and much better ATI 6950, both ran well together. Today with the GTX680, things are even better - not even a twitch. :)

I keep hard drives like that too. My old Sun Ultra 10 has a 20GB drive in it that's now going on 12 years old. It still works fine, and will continue to do so until it doesn't. There's no compelling reason to upgrade, so I won't. The problem though really is replacement. The old system doesn't handle anything bigger unless I figure out how to upgrade the BIOS, or whatever they call it in that system. My other systems, not my Trainz computer, have really fast SCSI 9GB drives in them. These were expensive drives when new, so I've sure gotten my money's worth out of them. I only repace a drive when it starts giving me trouble, or starts making weird noises. I did lose a 500MB drive, but that one was already 18 years old when that one died. It was in a proprietary system that ran special software. I had a complete backup, which I made by taking the drive out and connecting it to another system. The complete contents fit on a CD. This system is still operational today, albeit with a 1.2GB drive instead.

I agree. Run whatever you want, and enjoy every minute of it. There's no one saying you can't. And all of this has to be fun. When none of this is fun, it ain't worth doing anymore. :) I too am avid railfan, having chased trains since I was 3 years old when my dad brought me over to the fence across the street from where we lived at the time to watch the trains. Today the very active rail line is better than ever, and hosts the Downeaster and a bunch of commuter trains. :)

John

hminky
December 26th, 2012, 11:54 PM
Finding an active MSTS community might be difficult.
UKTS and TrainSim both have very active communities.

MSTS is still a popular sim. I play it all the time as I do Trainz and Railworks.

They are all fun.

Harold

Enzo1
December 27th, 2012, 12:14 AM
MSTS should run fine on that hardware. That was 2000 era technology, or about the time of the earliest Trainz version. :) Finding an active MSTS community might be difficult. When Microsoft had theirs, I was quite active in their forum. In the end, it became a spam haven. Shortly after that, the forum closed down.

Those are great video cards, although now getting a bit worn out now with the heavier and more demanding graphics. This would explain Bandi-Cam killing the FPS on you. There just isn't enough bandwidth between the software and drawing the video. I saw this with Fraps and an old video card I had. I'd load Fraps and my system would die. After I upgraded to my much later, and much better ATI 6950, both ran well together. Today with the GTX680, things are even better - not even a twitch. :)

I keep hard drives like that too. My old Sun Ultra 10 has a 20GB drive in it that's now going on 12 years old. It still works fine, and will continue to do so until it doesn't. There's no compelling reason to upgrade, so I won't. The problem though really is replacement. The old system doesn't handle anything bigger unless I figure out how to upgrade the BIOS, or whatever they call it in that system. My other systems, not my Trainz computer, have really fast SCSI 9GB drives in them. These were expensive drives when new, so I've sure gotten my money's worth out of them. I only repace a drive when it starts giving me trouble, or starts making weird noises. I did lose a 500MB drive, but that one was already 18 years old when that one died. It was in a proprietary system that ran special software. I had a complete backup, which I made by taking the drive out and connecting it to another system. The complete contents fit on a CD. This system is still operational today, albeit with a 1.2GB drive instead.

I agree. Run whatever you want, and enjoy every minute of it. There's no one saying you can't. And all of this has to be fun. When none of this is fun, it ain't worth doing anymore. :) I too am avid railfan, having chased trains since I was 3 years old when my dad brought me over to the fence across the street from where we lived at the time to watch the trains. Today the very active rail line is better than ever, and hosts the Downeaster and a bunch of commuter trains. :)

John

Back in my TS 2010 days, that 9600GT made running TS 2010 look easy, but just to show, for 12 it was pretty crappy... But the poor thing only had 512 MB of actual memory for it... Now this one has 1GB, so it runs a lot better, though still a bit on the laggy side in some places, but not the weird graphic glitches that let me know that I was using waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many 3D trees..... But now it makes running M-HKNP's and M-NPHK's across Sherman hill alot easier, and running BNSF GEVOspams across the clovis sub back to the fun stuff it was in my 2010 days! Heck I even get 10-13 FPS on Mojave now! (Now I just need to get the money to replace that PSU thats also 5-6 years old) You know, Vista maybe a crappy OS at times, but it has not given me that many issues really... Now that meh buddy Montanawestren is building Rosebud Coal, a route based off of track action in the Powder River Basin, I will be right at home... Now theres 3 things I love all working together: AC traction motors, True locomotives doing what they do best, and notch 8 locomotives with a mile long fully loaded coal train climbing up a 1.5% grade at awesomely slow speeds... Good luck getting me off of that... (I love Coal trains, it does not matter what locomotive is doing it, as long as it is a mile long, fully loaded, in notch 8, climbing up a 1.5% grade at awesomely slow speeds)... What ashame, I live in the next state over from it, and I have not yet seen the wonders! If we took a trip over there, my parents might not get me to come home LOL!

JCitron
December 27th, 2012, 12:33 AM
Back in my TS 2010 days, that 9600GT made running TS 2010 look easy, but just to show, for 12 it was pretty crappy... But the poor thing only had 512 MB of actual memory for it... Now this one has 1GB, so it runs a lot better, though still a bit on the laggy side in some places, but not the weird graphic glitches that let me know that I was using waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many 3D trees..... But now it makes running M-HKNP's and M-NPHK's across Sherman hill alot easier, and running BNSF GEVOspams across the clovis sub back to the fun stuff it was in my 2010 days! Heck I even get 10-13 FPS on Mojave now! (Now I just need to get the money to replace that PSU thats also 5-6 years old) You know, Vista maybe a crappy OS at times, but it has not given me that many issues really... Now that meh buddy Montanawestren is building Rosebud Coal, a route based off of track action in the Powder River Basin, I will be right at home... Now theres 3 things I love all working together: AC traction motors, True locomotives doing what they do best, and notch 8 locomotives with a mile long fully loaded coal train climbing up a 1.5% grade at awesomely slow speeds... Good luck getting me off of that... (I love Coal trains, it does not matter what locomotive is doing it, as long as it is a mile long, fully loaded, in notch 8, climbing up a 1.5% grade at awesomely slow speeds)... What ashame, I live in the next state over from it, and I have not yet seen the wonders! If we took a trip over there, my parents might not get me to come home LOL!

It's interesting you say that about Vista. I too didn't have any problems with it like a lot of people did, and i was a beta tester with Microsoft on the OS. I was a real beta tester, and not one of the script kiddies that got a copy for free. In the end I got a free copy of Vista Ultimate and a copy of Virtual PC 2007 which I still use under Win 7 for VMs. Your newer video card should work fine for some time. Remember to keep that system cool though. Those cards run pretty hot, but not as hot as the GTX4xx series do. I have an unused (well almost) GTX480 if you want it.

That will be an interesting route. I've seen the Powder River coal trains in action in and around Gillette, Wy and up through Forsyth, MT. It's quite a site seeing mile-plus long loaded coal trains being pulled by a string of BNSF traction units. :) I have a couple pictures I took somewhere in Montana on my way from Devil's Tower, Wy to Billings, MT where we stayed the second night. I'll post them up in the prototype forum.

Anyway, back on topic, LOL. This is what all train simulators are about - running trains and enjoying every minute of it. Now if a certain person, no name mentioned here, gets his hackles in a ruffle again, I don't know what to say! I can understand Dick's frustrations, though. When something doesn't live up to the expectations laid out by the company, is it worth the aggrevation? This is really only a game (Oh no, I said it again!), isn't it? Something for enjoyment and not for work. To be honest I've used plenty of annoying applications at my job, and don't need another one when I'm at home trying to have fun. :)

John

boyerm25
December 27th, 2012, 12:40 AM
Not bashing you, but a Pentium D...say no more. I do have a machine here in the house with a Pentium D. i would not attempt to run trainz on it, and if i did, i would not expect it to run well. i personally wouldnt look any further than this. doesnt matter if it is dual core it is one of the first. it is way outdated (05-06) and meeting or barely surpassing minimum specs with it does not mean the game should run fine.




Gee, If you're bashing that, I should probably upgrade my Pentium 4 machine I have TS12 on :confused:

Enzo1
December 27th, 2012, 12:44 AM
I have an unused (well almost) GTX480 if you want it.

That will be an interesting route. I've seen the Powder River coal trains in action in and around Gillette, Wy and up through Forsyth, MT. It's quite a site seeing mile-plus long loaded coal trains being pulled by a string of BNSF traction units. :) I have a couple pictures I took somewhere in Montana on my way from Devil's Tower, Wy to Billings, MT where we stayed the second night. I'll post them up in the prototype forum.

Anyway, back on topic, LOL. This is what all train simulators are about - running trains and enjoying every minute of it. Now if a certain person, no name mentioned here, gets his hackles in a ruffle again, I don't know what to say! I can understand Dick's frustrations, though. When something doesn't live up to the expectations laid out by the company, is it worth the aggrevation? This is really only a game (Oh no, I said it again!), isn't it? Something for enjoyment and not for work. To be honest I've used plenty of annoying applications at my job, and don't need another one when I'm at home trying to have fun. :)

John
No! My computer is too old to even handle that card lol! As far as the Powder River basin: I cant wait myself! As I am helping with the route as you see up under my username I am the terrain artist for it!
As far as the topic goes: I have been caught up in the fanboy stuff before, and the only person that gets made a fool is yourself, been there, done that, and been made look like an idiot lol... Guys, Its all reallly fun for us! As John said, it is something for enjoyment and not work! Not for arguing which sim is better, cuz in my opinion they are all great in there own way! If something dont live up to your expectation, then just do what I do, which is not play it... Its that simple! Now only if life could be that simple! So remember how easy that factor about games is!

raildumper
December 27th, 2012, 01:58 AM
If you are such a Railworks aficionado, then why don't you explain to the rest of us why you choose to hang out on a Trainz forum. Either you are a rather stupid person and can't figure out that you are in the wrong place, or you are just trying to stir up hate and discontent. My vote is for both of the options that I have just offered.

I did not start this thread. What is the need of starting a thread "I finally erased Railworks" ? Who cares what he does ? Why do you post here on a Trainz forum your opinions about Railworks, if you're such a Trainz fan ? Who is the stupid one here ? Who is trying to stir up hate against anything not Trainz ? I hang out on this forum because i play both games, and because i'm free to hang out where i want to, that simple. I would not post here anything about Railworks if i were just a Trainz aficionado (fanatic).
There have been lots of Railworks vs. Trainz threads here, all have been locked because it leads to nowhere.
Trainz is not that bad, but get your facts straight man, both are train games, simulating more or less train operations. You can enjoy Trainz with it's easyness to setup tasks, or enjoy Railworks with it's graphics, more realistic tracks or the easy way to import DEM based terrain. So what's wrong about that? Enjoy what you have, and forget about what you don't have/don't like/can't handle/don't have a clue about.

Vern
December 27th, 2012, 03:26 AM
Going up a 3% grade at 1 notch of throttle all depends on the creator of that locomotive. There are setups for it, just like in Trainz. My idea idea of a kids game is : unrealistic looking turnouts, unrealistic curves and unrealistic flat graphics.

The reason for that became apparent after discussion of the new Alco at TS.com. Apparently, if you start a scenario light engine and couple to a train, RW doesn't recalculate the rolling resistance so you are effectively still running light engine. Start coupled to the train and the whole rolling resistance will be taken into account, so performance is more as you expect. RW in that respect is still more suited to commuter or high speed rail operations where train mass and rolling resistance is much less of an issue.

However Trainz doesn't get off scot free either, in the physics department. Why after nearly 11 years is there still only the old style set and lap braking system? Most modern traction uses stepped or EP brakes, even loco hauled. I have downloaded some DMU's recently which accelerate like a bat out of hell and sustain 60 MPH going uphill in Notch 1 or thereabouts. Ditto braking, aside from the set and lap issue, one German steamer (might have been a TS2010 built in) stopped on a dime with a slight application. Most locos in Trainz still don't consume any fuel which, while it means you don't have to worry about splines mangling at attachment points on coal/water facilities, scores a -1 on the realism factor.

shaneturner12
December 27th, 2012, 04:27 AM
Out of interest, does anyone know if RW is available anywhere else apart from Steam? Whilst I'd rather stick with Trainz, it would be interesting as most Steam users probably do not realise what power Valve has over both their games and their accounts, and probably don't know how to use the game without loading up the Steam client.

Shane

Vern
December 27th, 2012, 04:57 AM
RW aka TS2013 can be purchased as a DVD-ROM but still needs to be installed via the Steam jacket. All the official DLC is sold through the Steam store so it is irrevocably linked.

shaneturner12
December 27th, 2012, 05:20 AM
Just as I thought. Whilst that is the case, I will most certainly not be buying it - whilst I do have a game on Steam, it's only because the retail copy I bought required Steam to play the game.

It's time for people to realise what Steam can do with your account if they feel that something dodgy is being done - they can terminate it without warning, and there is usually no recourse for action either. In addition to this, they can also decide to suspend or terminate the service at any time, with minimal warning.

I've also found that the Steam client also uses a lot of memory whilst in use, which for a demanding game will reduce the resources available for said game.

Whilst I realise that some users may like Steam, this is from both my personal experience, and from the experience of another Trainz user.

This should serve as a warning to check out what abilities a company has that they can use against you before purchasing a game that ties you into the service.

Shane
Shane

Robert2d6
December 27th, 2012, 07:17 AM
Just as I thought. Whilst that is the case, I will most certainly not be buying it - whilst I do have a game on Steam, it's only because the retail copy I bought required Steam to play the game.

It's time for people to realise what Steam can do with your account if they feel that something dodgy is being done - they can terminate it without warning, and there is usually no recourse for action either. In addition to this, they can also decide to suspend or terminate the service at any time, with minimal warning.

I've also found that the Steam client also uses a lot of memory whilst in use, which for a demanding game will reduce the resources available for said game.

Whilst I realise that some users may like Steam, this is from both my personal experience, and from the experience of another Trainz user.

This should serve as a warning to check out what abilities a company has that they can use against you before purchasing a game that ties you into the service.

Shane
Shane

It was amusing reading posts on other forums a few months ago from RW12 users trying to figure out how they could keep their computers off-line so that Steam wouldn't put RW13 on their system, without their permission. Most were unsuccessful and many found out that some of their content was made unusable after the installation of RW13. Steam, thanks but no thanks. That was one of the important deciding factors why I chose Trainz last summer, not having to tangle with Steam.

cascaderailroad
December 27th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Walking through Walmart on the anal Christmas present scavenger hunt, I spied a Train game (only 2 left @ 19.95).

I picked it up, and put it down ... then walked away. (I can't believe that I actually considered cheating on my true love, Twainz, and actually thought of leaving her for another). I usually get my panties all bunched up in a wad, when ever someone disrespects my mother of all games: Twainz. Screaming at them like they actually insulted my own mother (they deserve such a trashing for doing that).

All through the 1 day before Christmas shopping frenzy, while thoughts of sugarplums, and low end PC's danced in my head (the Train game kept pulling me away from the automotive isle, like a tracktor beam on Star Trek).

I stupidly bought RW (just like I stupidly bought 6 pairs of winter workmans 3X bib overalls just because they were on sale). I no longer work for the RR, and my outside activities include 25 minutes of shoveling snewwwww, at maximum. (It's not like I actually wok all day in the rain, sleet & schnewwww, busting up concrete in sub zero temperatures, or digging ditches in the frozen permafrost).

I returned the bib coveralls, and the RW trainz game is next on Santa's worthless gift returns to the store. (Either that or I buy a $3279 Alienware laptop, or a $2879 Black Ops desktop PC in order to run a "twain down a twack") !

I could buy a 1200 watt PS, and a Nvidia 690 video card, a liquid nitrogen CPU cooling system for an another @ $1200 ... then I could play any ol' Twainz game !

Vern
December 27th, 2012, 07:59 AM
I guess it's horses for courses, but IMHO Steam is far less insidious a DRM than the likes of Securom or Starforce which put a root kit on your PC. I love helicopter sims but I won't touch Black Shark due to it used Starforce.

A large mumber of games now have Steam as the jacket, yes there is a risk if you do something stupid like cheat on line they will cancel your account and they do seem to operate outside any sort of consumer legislation, but it has become a necessary evil to play many modern games.

shaneturner12
December 27th, 2012, 08:02 AM
Indeed, but it's one of those things of whether people want to accept that evil or not, as quite a few games have retail versions that do not require Steam.

Shane

hminky
December 27th, 2012, 09:16 AM
Indeed, but it's one of those things of whether people want to accept that evil or not, as quite a few games have retail versions that do not require Steam.

Shane
If you go to the Steam site there are 4 million people playing on Steam. I guess the people who are afraid of Steam need a thicker tin foil in their hat.

If a game has multi-player it WILL be on Steam.

Harold

shaneturner12
December 27th, 2012, 09:19 AM
It would be interesting to find out how many of the 4 million people are actually aware of what they are signing up for, as the details are hidden in Steam's SSA (Steam Subscriber Agreement).

I also feel that game distributors should shoulder some of the responsibility that comes with putting it on Steam, including restrictions on how patches are distributed.

Shane

Robert2d6
December 27th, 2012, 09:55 AM
If you go to the Steam site there are 4 million people playing on Steam. I guess the people who are afraid of Steam need a thicker tin foil in their hat.

If a game has multi-player it WILL be on Steam.

Harold

I know of several multiplayer games including Trainz, that don't need Steam, so I don't understand your comment.

Robert2d6
December 27th, 2012, 09:57 AM
It would be interesting to find out how many of the 4 million people are actually aware of what they are signing up for, as the details are hidden in Steam's SSA (Steam Subscriber Agreement).

I also feel that game distributors should shoulder some of the responsibility that comes with putting it on Steam, including restrictions on how patches are distributed.

Shane

It is my understanding that you could by $1,000 worth of add ons for a sim ( we know which one I am talking about ), and if Steam decides you are finished, you are finished, period. The Supreme Court wouldn't even touch that case. :confused:

shaneturner12
December 27th, 2012, 10:08 AM
Indeed - hence why I advise users to watch out when buying games from Steam.

Shane

RRSignal
December 27th, 2012, 11:18 AM
If you go to the Steam site there are 4 million people playing on Steam. I guess the people who are afraid of Steam need a thicker tin foil in their hat.

If a game has multi-player it WILL be on Steam.

Harold

Yes, because companies never screw purchasers of their digital content...except Walmart, Amazon, Microsoft (twice)...

RRSignal
December 27th, 2012, 11:21 AM
I guess it's horses for courses, but IMHO Steam is far less insidious a DRM than the likes of Securom or Starforce which put a root kit on your PC. I love helicopter sims but I won't touch Black Shark due to it used Starforce.

A large mumber of games now have Steam as the jacket, yes there is a risk if you do something stupid like cheat on line they will cancel your account and they do seem to operate outside any sort of consumer legislation, but it has become a necessary evil to play many modern games.

Actually, I find most incarnations of Securom and Starforce to be less-damaging than Steam. Regardless, it simply isn't worth the hassle.

haddock56
December 27th, 2012, 11:45 AM
Plus honestly, I think most who are deleting up to 50GB worth of product in exchange for 7GB worth of product because they are happier aren't caring too much about graphics superiority. For me it boils down to form and function and Trainz blew me away..

Graphically though, it does a fine job and depending on the route I've already seen it hold its own with Railworks.

I also wasted no time stripping the paint jobs off freeware and repainting it for my personal railroad.. :D

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8311197303_95967a5cc6_o.jpg

The functionality is a big plus for me and so are the awesome screenshots from other users. In fact, the amount of freeware available is reason enough to choose Trainz over Railworks. I have also done some personal repaints and experimental repaints. Trainz is a far better value for your money than Railworks.

shaneturner12
December 27th, 2012, 11:47 AM
I've got to agree there, as most content on RW is payware, compared to Trainz that has mostly freeware. Most people would probably not be able to afford the packs required just for one route to work properly.

Shane

haddock56
December 27th, 2012, 12:05 PM
And let's not forget the fact that with Content Manager, you can put your own spin on an engine by changing the hornsound too. Nothing like that in Railworks. And all this stuff about draw distance and other things--Trainz is designed for a wide range of computers, so somebody might have a high end flight sim computer with a lot of RAM and hard drive with awesome graphics, but others might have something like mine, which has 4GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive, and a fairly good video card. It's a good thing to be able to turn off antialiasing and reduce the draw distance so it will work good on lower end computers. When it comes to ease of use and an easily tweakable configuration, Trainz comes out on top. MSTS is good on the prototypes but needs major file rework. WinRAR is an absolute headache, it would be much easier to just make the executable files for that sim. I've run all three of the big ones: Trainz, MSTS, and Railworks. Trainz outranks both by a long shot.

boyerm25
December 27th, 2012, 01:17 PM
Trainz is designed for a wide range of computers, so somebody might have a high end flight sim computer with a lot of RAM and hard drive with awesome graphics, but others might have something like mine, which has 4GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive, and a fairly good video card.
And some might have Pentium 4 processors and get 3 FPS in TS12. On my mac version though, trainz runs very well, and I probably won't try another rail sim.

Robert2d6
December 27th, 2012, 01:49 PM
I've got to agree there, as most content on RW is payware, compared to Trainz that has mostly freeware. Most people would probably not be able to afford the packs required just for one route to work properly.

Shane

I was told by several people when getting into train sims that $1,000 was an amount that was often spent on RW payware. I don't think I have spent more than $150 total so far with Trainz payware.

sniper297
December 27th, 2012, 01:59 PM
I did half a dozen routes and about 30 reskins and mods for railsim/railworks, like my MSTS and Trainz creations those are all free, batteries included no assembly required works out of the box. It is POSSIBLE to change sounds and physics for RW addons, I hacked a BR-294 and DB101 for US couplers, changed horns and added bells here and there, but it's a lot more complicated than Trainz and takes a ridiculous amount of work for really simple things.

Again the biggest problem is the AI traffic, I even tried crazy workarounds like diamond crossings with signals linked to the wrong tracks, but it's completely hopeless for even the most basic interaction with AI.

styckx
December 27th, 2012, 03:10 PM
I did half a dozen routes and about 30 reskins and mods for railsim/railworks, like my MSTS and Trainz creations those are all free, batteries included no assembly required works out of the box. It is POSSIBLE to change sounds and physics for RW addons, I hacked a BR-294 and DB101 for US couplers, changed horns and added bells here and there, but it's a lot more complicated than Trainz and takes a ridiculous amount of work for really simple things.

Again the biggest problem is the AI traffic, I even tried crazy workarounds like diamond crossings with signals linked to the wrong tracks, but it's completely hopeless for even the most basic interaction with AI.

The biggest problem is steam making it all go away. You have two options with "correcting" Railworks.. Modify all the default junk and pray to god you're extremely good at never letting steam touch it again. Or the other way is clone everything default, modify it and then modify any scenarios to use the modified cloned stock..

Either way.. I own the entire RSC catalog, paid for about a quarter of it, rest was gratuitous via RSC (don't ask, I'm not here to kiss and tell) and here I am enjoying $20 Trainz with $12.50 worth of payware over Railworks packed with close to $2000 worth of product.. And now deleted. The fact I walked away and came back 8 months later to have the game rendered useless (it wouldn't start) because of a bug in the core (fixed days later mind you) is telling.

Then the big Donner Pass re-release.. Then I connect 50 cars to 50 cars at 1mph and watch my train rocket backwards as another train that I'm not even driving makes a rainbow.

Sniper, you should be familiar with this "error".. No amount of fancy graphics and tons of product is enough to put up with the constant goal post movement and rage inducing bugs that have been around for years.


http://i.imgur.com/szcar.jpg

cascaderailroad
December 27th, 2012, 03:15 PM
But maybe some of us would like the animated points, and hilarious trains leaping up into the air.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvD2rU6iOYo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyD6JeGy1rs

rjhowie
December 27th, 2012, 07:22 PM
Ha, ha, made me smile raildumper and you have my sympathy on RW on a repeated Trainz discussion. It will no doubt keep coming back here time after time under one excuse or guise of another. Now I just treat each occasion as another version of the film Groundhog Day so one doesn't get too hepped up by the pointlessness. That case is well represented time after time. When the threads reach the 10th, I will treat mself to a meal in a posh restaurant because it will have verified my prophecy! Then buckle down to my route build continuation on this the best and easiet Train Sim to build with. It's like the endless stuff across in the ex-colonies anout "cliffs" Ha, ha. :D

sniper297
December 27th, 2012, 07:43 PM
stycks, nothing new about that one;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?264028-Caution-land-mines-on-track

That turned out to be the bridge loft kicking from underneath, bounding box on the cars was set too low. This;

http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?266533-M-S-T-S-2-1

Shows exploding couplers in post 3, but since they were having so many problems with doubleheading and engines getting confused service numbers anyway they "fixed" it by disabling the feature. After railsim patch mark 2 once you couple more than one engine onto a train the engine you're not in at the time of uncoupling is no longer capable of being driven independently. That was my biggest problem with the whole crew, if they couldn't figure out how to debug something they just disabled it. That's how we got the locked manual switches, it was supposed to cure the creeping AI - didn't work, but they never unlocked the switches.

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=339&t=117900

Seriously? All of that to set up one simple meet that falls apart if you breathe on it wrong and they find that acceptable?

http://railworksamerica.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6315

Seriously? All that to get a few trains to spawn from a portal and they find that acceptable?

I wasted a couple years trying to convince them idiots they were going down the wrong road, it never needed to be "further enhanced", it should have been ripped out and replaced from the beginning regardless of how many existing scenarios would have to be redone. I'm never going back, that game went from useless to hopeless, there's no way to fix it now.

cascaderailroad
December 27th, 2012, 08:45 PM
I finally returned Railworks 2013 to the store, unopened.

It just sounds like more work and trouble, and no fun.