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Davie_UCF
May 25th, 2012, 07:09 PM
I'm writing a few scenario's but want to use my paths i've used for AI for the human train, however you can't set paths for human trains as you need AI to set the command.
I've experimented and found if you add another loco to a consist you can have an AI driver on that loco setting the paths..

So ideally (unless I want to doublehead everything) I need an invisible train to stick between coaches/wagons that can be the secret path setting AI, but still be a part of the moving train so it can unlock the paths as it passes them.
I've tried the invisible train used by ATLS but it somehow is quite long, it puts a gap between coaches..

Is there an invisible loco that is paper thin so fits between coaches without there being a gap? Part of me feels there was once..
Is it easy to make something like this?

Thanks for your help
David

R701Rusty
May 25th, 2012, 07:50 PM
G'day David,
There was an asset made for around '04 that was mainly for assistance with braking and I don't recall what it was called but am unsure whether it would be suitable for your needs. Someone with a better memory might be of more help here?

Cheers
Russell.

Davie_UCF
May 25th, 2012, 07:51 PM
Seems I was wrong, having two drivers on one consist doesn't work. One of the two doesn't have the full menu where you would find 'continue schedule' or 'Change direction' so it doesn't actually do the commands it's given.

Back to the tedious setting of junctions via triggers I suppose.. Which doesn't always seem to work. Unless anyone knows a way for a human train to set paths?


G'day David,
There was an asset made for around '04 that was mainly for assistance with braking and I don't recall what it was called but am unsure whether it would be suitable for your needs. Someone with a better memory might be of more help here?

Cheers
Russell.

Hi, somehow I did find this. It's called AI_Brake. Which was perfect, although when trying out my theory it did not work as I said above :(.

maruffijd
May 25th, 2012, 09:53 PM
I use a payware set from Boat called ASB DTT to preset all my turnout points and it has not failed me yet.

boat
May 26th, 2012, 03:43 AM
I was thinking the same thing, Maruffid.......

Davie - If you use multiple ASB DTT controlled turnouts they will in effect produce a 'path' that both AI and Manual trains will obey. Your trains will still go to AI if you use a 'DriveTo' Command etc.... but for the ASB DTT Junctions AI and Manual trains are interchangeable.

Click on the link below and download the pdf Tutorials to see if its any use for you. (You'll need the full tutorial as the 'quickstart' just deals with a single Turnout).

There's a lot of it but it makes good bedtime reading. :hehe:

It may provide an alternative solution.

Cheers,

Boat

teddytoot
May 26th, 2012, 04:59 AM
There is Invisicab (kuid:86661:15710) by slugsmasher on the DLS (tick the Trainz box, it is quite old but works OK for me).

Davie_UCF
May 26th, 2012, 06:01 AM
I was thinking the same thing, Maruffid.......

Davie - If you use multiple ASB DTT controlled turnouts they will in effect produce a 'path' that both AI and Manual trains will obey. Your trains will still go to AI if you use a 'DriveTo' Command etc.... but for the ASB DTT Junctions AI and Manual trains are interchangeable.

Click on the link below and download the pdf Tutorials to see if its any use for you. (You'll need the full tutorial as the 'quickstart' just deals with a single Turnout).

There's a lot of it but it makes good bedtime reading. :hehe:

It may provide an alternative solution.

Cheers,

Boat

I was unaware you could use it for that. I need a way to set a path for a human train that is unlocked once passed over so other trains can take different routes.. In other words a way of writing an activity where the human doesn't have to change any points, without having to use the 'set junctions' rule with the trigger check which is rather tedious.

I'd be interested in trying it out for curiosity but I am hoping for something freeware as I intend to release the route with many activities/scenarios for people to run/play..

maruffijd
May 26th, 2012, 07:06 AM
If the route is intended for release to the public, this method would not help there. It still is excellent for your own use if you tried it on personal routes.

boat
May 26th, 2012, 12:52 PM
Hi Davie,

The bit you mentioned, ".... where the human doesn't have to change any points" is exactly what my system will do. Direction 'decisions' are added in the Driver Schedule, (Turn Left - Turn Right etc.) The system then switches the points accordingly. It doesn't matter if its an AI Train or a 'human' train. Routeing will be decided by how you set up the Driver Schedule. Thus if you have lots of ASB Turnouts in succession, you get a 'path' effect.

I take your point about general release though. But I have seen other stuff on the DLS containing payware! You could always have two sessions.... One with the 'payware' and one without.... Not that I'm promoting my stuff or anything! :o

Boat

Davie_UCF
May 26th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Hi Davie,

The bit you mentioned, ".... where the human doesn't have to change any points" is exactly what my system will do. Direction 'decisions' are added in the Driver Schedule, (Turn Left - Turn Right etc.) The system then switches the points accordingly. It doesn't matter if its an AI Train or a 'human' train. Routeing will be decided by how you set up the Driver Schedule. Thus if you have lots of ASB Turnouts in succession, you get a 'path' effect.

I take your point about general release though. But I have seen other stuff on the DLS containing payware! You could always have two sessions.... One with the 'payware' and one without.... Not that I'm promoting my stuff or anything! :o

Boat

I may check it out just for curiosity and own use soon then. Shame you can't buy a licence to use a payware item in a route if the item can't be accessed by the normal users to use their selves.. That would be a perfect world.

Edit: I just had a quick skim through the manual for ASB on the site to see if I could understand the manual/human aspect and routing at a glance. Seems interesting! Much more than just protecting turnouts. I would be very much interested if you could develop this signal box aspect further..

Can I ask how it works for human trains if not using rules to set it up behind the scenes? As it seems to use commands and I thought...well it seems commands only work when a train is switched to AI, which removes human control..

Cheers :)
David

maruffijd
May 27th, 2012, 12:03 AM
I may check it out just for curiosity and own use soon then. Shame you can't buy a licence to use a payware item in a route if the item can't be accessed by the normal users to use their selves.. That would be a perfect world.

Edit: I just had a quick skim through the manual for ASB on the site to see if I could understand the manual/human aspect and routing at a glance. Seems interesting! Much more than just protecting turnouts. I would be very much interested if you could develop this signal box aspect further..

Can I ask how it works for human trains if not using rules to set it up behind the scenes? As it seems to use commands and I thought...well it seems commands only work when a train is switched to AI, which removes human control..

Cheers :)
David

If I may,

This set up in human mode can be called more of an assisted driving mode rather than full AI mode.
Included with the set up is a command called Go Manual ASB Control. This gives the control of the throttle and brakes to the human driver so YOU are driving while the AI side of the command sets the turnout points for you as you roll along. The best way I can paraphrase this woud be "You are the Engineer, the AI is your Conductor with the remote control for the turnouts in his hands."

The few points I wish to highlight:

1. The ASB DTT commands are NOT typical Auran driver commands. They differ as to the fact they are more like auto pilot(?) than AI commands.

2. This system gives you the luxury of deciding if the driver is human or AI by the use of Go Manual or Go Auto commands.

3. I have found a simple way to build up these double turnouts as single turnouts. (The secret is simply replacing the "other line" with invisible assets.) This means in driver, all you see and use is a single line, while taking full advantage of the assets capabilities. (see this thread for more details http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?84281-Boat-goes-Payware-ASB-Turnout!)

Believe me, this is an asset that you will love once you get by the initial learning curve(and it's easy to learn).

I will say, setting up a string of commands in the beginning is a PITA, but, I have seen that the more nerve racking, time consuming, and annoying the set up is, the better the driving experience will be. The session library rule helps alot too.

boat
May 27th, 2012, 03:57 AM
Hi Davie.... (thanks Maruffijd)

OK, first on the ‘licence’ issue. As I say on my website....

Route builders may reference ASB Turnout in their work and that work may be published as freeware or payware without reference to me.However, the ASB assets themselves must not be included in their work, which should include details of how and where to obtain the ASB Turnout assets.

So in other words, anyone can upload a route/session to the DLS that contains ASB assets. You just can’t upload the actual assets themselves. You will need to include details of where people can buy those assets of course. So, if you added the ASB assets to a particular Session Layer, you could upload your route, have a standard Trainz session, plus a ‘payware’ session as well for those people who wanted to download the payware assets for the extra optional functionality.

As for the human/AI functionality. I like to think of the ASB, (Active Signal Box) as just that. The box sits there, waiting for a train to approach. When it senses one coming it gets active and checks to see if the train wants to turn left or right, (set in a driver command). It then switches the point accordingly but only after checking the route is clear. As a single junction, it just stops train-thru-train events but as I’ve said, place multiple junctions and you start to form a path. A train with ASB Driver Commands will look 3 junctions ahead too, so a fast train can set up junctions beyond as well. The restriction of course is that they are only double track junctions. It won’t do complex junctions at themoment.... (but you can get pretty complex by close placement – see the tram video on my website)

Yes, most Driver Commands will only work in AI mode. DriveTo – NavigateTo etc will take full control. ASB Turnout however will do both. The default mode, when you place an ASB Driver Command is to put the train into AutoPilot Mode. This will allow all trains to follow their selected route as dictated in the Driver Command Schedule, in effective AI. However, if you insert a GoManual Command in the (any) schedule this will tell all the ASB’s on the map that from this point in the schedule, this train is a human driven train. As a result, the ASB will still do all its checking and point switching when that train arrives but the train will stay in manual mode.

If you want to NavigateTo an industry at some point then, those Commands will be as they always were.... only the ASB’s will stay manual. You can also stop and load at a station etc, but I have noticed that Trainz doesn’t quite deal with station loading correctly when the train is in manual mode and has a schedule running. It loads OK but the door animation doesn’t work. I do have a fix for this and I will try and get this out soon. It will be free for those who have already downloaded the kit.

I may well develop the ASB idea further in the future. The problem is that each ASB has to be written for a particular junction layout. Therefore its really only feasible for ‘popular’ junctions, (like a double track turnout). I’ll have to think of some more set-ups that are often used!!

Hope that helps,

Boat

maruffijd
May 27th, 2012, 04:12 AM
This fix would solve the only real issue I have left with this setup, but, I have all the time in the world because I am 99.9% of the time sitting in the engineers seat and never see if the doors are in the mood to work or not. (the other .1% is dedicated to figuring out why certain AI drivers are throwing a tantrum of some sort.)

Davie_UCF
May 27th, 2012, 10:31 AM
Thanks for your replies. I will have to get around to trying it.

It is a shame the path rule can make nearly anything possible but can't be used with human drivers.. Maybe ASB can partially replace the path rule for my scenario's at least.#

My route is a UK route, so driven on left, but is mainly single track. How much does the side the trains travel on affect ASB? As on some activities I intend for trains to travel on different sides of the loops or platforms, would I need to purchase both ASB's?

MountE
May 27th, 2012, 12:17 PM
I don't know if this is what you need but try philskene's Bi-Directional AI using ASB. It says all freeware on dsl.

boat
May 27th, 2012, 04:31 PM
Thanks for your replies. I will have to get around to trying it.

It is a shame the path rule can make nearly anything possible but can't be used with human drivers.. Maybe ASB can partially replace the path rule for my scenario's at least.#

My route is a UK route, so driven on left, but is mainly single track. How much does the side the trains travel on affect ASB? As on some activities I intend for trains to travel on different sides of the loops or platforms, would I need to purchase both ASB's?

The problem is that on a Left Hand Drive layout, turning left is easy. Turning right is harder as you will be crossing the main line. With Right Hand Drive layouts the problem is reversed. Then, turning left crosses the main line. Thefore the coding to protect the junction is different. Hence the need for a left hand drive and a right hand drive version. You could certainly have both LHD & RHD sections on a layout but the junctions would not be interchangable. You would in that situation need both Controllers.

As mentioned before, my system is designed for double track turnouts so using it for single track layouts is not tested. I think Maruffijd has done something with single tracks though! You would need to fool it!

To be clear, its not as versitile as the mentioned 'path rule' for setting paths but if you want to interact AI and Manual trains so you don't have to keep switching points then it will do that.

Regards,

Boat

boat
May 27th, 2012, 04:50 PM
I don't know if this is what you need but try philskene's Bi-Directional AI using ASB. It says all freeware on dsl.

Davie - Do take a look at this. It appears to be a layout made by Philskene using my 'ASB Crossover' asset to its limits. This is similar to 'ASB Turnout' in that it will work with either AI or manual trains. However, ASB Crossover just protects diamond crossings. It does not switch points as ASB Turnout does.

ASB Crossover is free on the DLS. Download that and you will get a feel for ASB Turnout. There is a pdf for on the Tutorial Page of my website.

Boat

Davie_UCF
May 27th, 2012, 04:52 PM
While thinking about it, the main thing I think i'm interested with the ASB is the Go Manual part. Does this only work with the ASB commands or will it work with others? Like waiting for trigger?

I'm surprised noone else has made a command that lets you drive while the commands still work as if in AI.

boat
May 27th, 2012, 05:04 PM
GoManual only works with ASB Commands I'm afraid.

Boat

maruffijd
May 27th, 2012, 08:18 PM
As mentioned before, my system is designed for double track turnouts so using it for single track layouts is not tested. I think Maruffijd has done something with single tracks though! You would need to fool it!


Regards,

Boat

Yes, I have an easy method to use this on single lines. I use the sytem for any and all single and double turnouts I wish to set and forget. I do leave specific turnouts off the system as I want them to be simulated as a manually operated turnout where the consist needs to stop, the conductor hops out, throws the control handle and waves through the train.