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kenportner
April 22nd, 2012, 05:34 PM
Maybe I'm just unlucky, but it seems that most of what I download from the Download Center does not work at all or work right. It's almost always missing dependencies or can't recognize them, and when I search for them on the Download Center they're not there.

Why is this? Were they ever there? If they were, why aren't they there anymore?

If not, why would someone upload something that wasn't complete?

Thanks.

philskene
April 22nd, 2012, 06:06 PM
Ken --

I detest hunting to the far corners of the Universe for those elusive missing dependencies, but for some reason inexplicable to me others seem to think it's part of the fun of Trainz.

There are two reasons for the missing dependency saga:



Some uploaders are blissfully unaware that some of the dependencies for their item of rolling stock, route, session, ... are not on the DLS.
Others feel they should not be constrained to assets from the DLS.


There are, of course, work arounds for both.

For the first, use Content Manager to make a .cdp file of the item, import that file into a clean copy of Trainz (it's possible to have multiple installations of Trainz), then use Content Manager to download all the dependencies. That will identify anything that is not on the DLS.

For the second, do the above and then provide a readme.txt with the links to external sites where the assets can be downloaded.

Now a few of us are aware of both 1. and 2. If you download my routes and sessions you will find that in almost all cases only built-in or DLS content is used. In the few cases where an external download is required a link is shown in the text under the thumbnail. Search the DLS using "philskene" as the author. In your case make sure you get the TS10 content.

Tell me if this helps.

Phil

Dermmy
April 22nd, 2012, 06:21 PM
Many creators - myself included - don't use the DLS as a means of distribution because of the EULA that applies after upload. That's why a lot of stuff isn't there.

All of my routes are accompanied by a web page which links to every non-DLS asset used. I check the links regularly. Wherever possible the link is direct to the content cdp, but worst case scenario is that the link is to the page from which the content is available. Mostly that works, and works well.

I accept though that it is frustrating to have to chase assets around with absolutely no idea where to start. Google will find most of them, a forum search used to find most of the rest (when are they going to fix the forum search engine? It's been months!) As a last resort a post in the forum will turn up the rest.

Should you have to 'jump through hoops' to find dependencies? No. And you don't HAVE to. Lot's of users simply don't use stuff with non-DLS dependencies. Install > Unknown > Delete is always an option...

Andy :)

RRSignal
April 22nd, 2012, 08:28 PM
Unfortunately, this is what we call the "Great Content Chase", the "Great KUID Hunt", or one of a number of other appropriate and colorful terms. The motivations behind those who don't put stuff on the DLS vary, but it's an unfortunate fact of life, but it would be much worse without the DLS. I personally dislike putting end users through hoops because of personal hangups, though there is some content that simply isn't available on the DLS.

FYI, however, there are really two DLS'; the one accessible by the Black Pages and the one accessible by CMP. While all content one one *should* be on the other, they are two separate databases that are not always in sync. That means searching one (usually the Black Pages) might turn up something not available in the other. If you ever find something in one and not the other, it's usually a good idea to shoot the Helpdesk a report or post it in the General forum.

Good luck, and happy Trainzing!

kenportner
April 22nd, 2012, 10:16 PM
Unfortunately, this is what we call the "Great Content Chase", the "Great KUID Hunt", or one of a number of other appropriate and colorful terms. The motivations behind those who don't put stuff on the DLS vary, but it's an unfortunate fact of life, but it would be much worse without the DLS. I personally dislike putting end users through hoops because of personal hangups, though there is some content that simply isn't available on the DLS.

FYI, however, there are really two DLS'; the one accessible by the Black Pages and the one accessible by CMP. While all content one one *should* be on the other, they are two separate databases that are not always in sync. That means searching one (usually the Black Pages) might turn up something not available in the other. If you ever find something in one and not the other, it's usually a good idea to shoot the Helpdesk a report or post it in the General forum.

Good luck, and happy Trainzing!


Thanks for the info.

It seems I'm able to get a list of missing, faulty or unknown dependencies from the CM. Any suggestions for searching for items that are not on the download station? Just google them by KUID number?

And what are the "Black Pages" you refer to?

Thanks you.

RRSignal
April 22nd, 2012, 10:26 PM
Yeah, Googling by kuid is the best approach. Be sure to Google on the number itself, leaving out any :1, :2, etc. and the <kuid: part. Occasionally, you might not find the kuid itself, but might find a suitable replacement.

The "Black Pages" are accessible from the Download Station at the top of this page, which goes to:

http://www.auran.com/TRS2004/DLS.php

silverdane
April 29th, 2012, 12:17 PM
is there a way to filter missing dependencies so as to get a list of all that is missing and not on DLS. So far the only way I've found is to open one at a time and then write it down.

Dermmy
April 29th, 2012, 03:46 PM
If you mean 'unknown' assets then no. Right click > show dependencies > paper and pencil is all that is available...

p-dehnert
April 30th, 2012, 02:06 AM
Right click > show dependencies > Click first unknown > shift click last unknown > right click > copy (to clipboard) > paste in text editor

Peter

nimec
May 1st, 2012, 07:34 PM
If you follow Peters instructions above you can also post them into an email to send them off to anyone who can help you find them. Missing Kuids were the bane of my life when I started with trainz a couple of years ago and still are when I download from the DLS. Sometimes you may find that using Download Helper will result in missing kuids but if you download the same route using fps it is OK. If I googled the missing ones all I got was directed to somewhere where there was somone else also looking for the same missing ones. There is a Gereman site TrainsDepot I think it is that has many kuids used in trains so its always worth searching there, and if when all else failed I went into the config file, saw what the asset was and if I needed it, then found the website or email address of the creator in the config file and contacted them, with a polite request for help, quoting the missing kuid/s.
I have never been refused help and have found the creators I have emailed most helpful and either been refered to where I can get them or sent the missing kuids as .cdp files. After all, the creators are the persons who know their own work best and should know where to find all the bits and pieces.
If the asset is one that is minor and not important I will usually Right click>Open it for Edit the >Delete the asset itself.
One German creator was extremely helpful and gave me a method whereby if the kuid just cannot be found, then open the route or session in surveyor, open the drop down menu, click on Delete Missing kuids, then Save. You may have to give the route/session an amended name. I've got most of the above ideas from occasionally reading this forum over the past couple of years.
You will see some people posting on this forum have a lot of games registered. Consequently have a lot of assets and therefore kuids and can be very helpful. Try and find one who has a wealth of knowledge and experience as a mentor, someone who is prepared to share their knowledge with you to help you on a personal basis and whom you can email and send you a missing kuid or two if you havent been able to find them. Emailing a missing kuid is as esasy as falling off a log.
I was lucky and found a very good mentor and we are also now good friends. Some people on this forum are very helpful others no so and just tell you to google for them. Experience has shown me that googling is of little use but on another thread on the forum I read somwhere where one of two people are talking about listing websites where kuids are listed. especially ones that are hard to find like from Russia etc. Lets hope something will come out of that and that perhaps AURAN can host the list of sites as an adjuct to this forum Cheers

Euphod
May 1st, 2012, 08:02 PM
When you download a route, or anything with many dependencies, it is not enough to assume that all dependencies have been downloaded, even if they all are on the DLS!
For example; a route may show the missing dependencies icon when some of the dependencies are missing dependencies of their own. You can show all the route dependencies in the main window, then scroll down and find the ones that are incomplete, or show all assets that are missing dependencies.
Then you can concentrate on each one, and download the missing bits from the DLS, or if they aren't on the DLS (unknown), begin the Google search.

HiBaller
May 1st, 2012, 09:42 PM
What really bugs me is having a piece of content. It works fine and looks good. One day, you check for updates and there in the list is the asset you like and use. You click on it, choose "Show asset versions", and you get the current asset and a big, hairy question mark that says "gee, I don't know where the update is BUT I KNOW IT IS OUT THERE SOMEWHERE. This is indicated for example by "KUID:12345:00001" Above that is "KUID2:12345:00001:1". Leading that entry is a big question mark. Now, how the heck does the DLS "know" there is even an update if it can't find it? Who told it there was an update? If there IS an update, shouldn't the DLS have it?

Answer me that?

EDIT: I currently am showing 52 items that have Unknown Location for updates. Over HALF of them are built-in to TRS2010. Excuse me, but why are built-in asset updates missing?

Bill

JCitron
May 1st, 2012, 10:45 PM
What really bugs me is having a piece of content. It works fine and looks good. One day, you check for updates and there in the list is the asset you like and use. You click on it, choose "Show asset versions", and you get the current asset and a big, hairy question mark that says "gee, I don't know where the update is BUT I KNOW IT IS OUT THERE SOMEWHERE. This is indicated for example by "KUID:12345:00001" Above that is "KUID2:12345:00001:1". Leading that entry is a big question mark. Now, how the heck does the DLS "know" there is even an update if it can't find it? Who told it there was an update? If there IS an update, shouldn't the DLS have it?

Answer me that?

EDIT: I currently am showing 52 items that have Unknown Location for updates. Over HALF of them are built-in to TRS2010. Excuse me, but why are built-in asset updates missing?

Bill

I've seen that too, Bill. Check the actual revisions. The older versions will sometimes have either a DLS icon or a big fat question mark. The more recent updates, will usually have a DLS symbol. This means that the update is, or should be, on the DLS.

John

HiBaller
May 1st, 2012, 10:53 PM
That's precisely the problem, John. It is usually the "newer" version that has the "unknown location" icon. That makes every route I've used the "old" one on show errors and missing items. Some of the 54 I have are even stranger: I may have version KUID2:12345:00001:2, and the two "asset versions" show up as KUID:12345:00001 and KUID2:12345:00001:3. My version (:2) is showing the "newer version available" icon and the other two (original and :3) are showing "?".

That simply doesn't make sense.

Bill

Euphod
May 1st, 2012, 11:12 PM
Recently I discovered that Cm will still call an asset as missing dependencies, even if the latest version is installed. I have to install the obsoleted version(s) of the asset to clear the error.

HiBaller
May 1st, 2012, 11:14 PM
In some cases, that works also for me, Ed. But not all of them. It really makes no sense though, does it?

What is that little blue square over your post?

EDIT: I just noticed that I have one also. I wonder what it is. Everyone has one on their post.

Bill

Euphod
May 1st, 2012, 11:21 PM
What is that little blue square over your post?

You haven't inserted a title into your response, so it indicates the default title.

*or not!

HiBaller
May 1st, 2012, 11:26 PM
Hmmmm. If that's the case, then your last shouldn't have had one appearing. It's just a bandwidth waster I guess. If I didn't put a title in, then why even mark where it would have gone anyway. But, this is OT anyway.

Bill

mezzoprezzo
May 2nd, 2012, 02:45 AM
If you float your cursor over the icon a description will be revealed.

When you post there is a series of icon options, headed Post Icons:, immediately below the box where you type your main message. You can also float your cursor over any of these to see their description when compiling your post.

If you make no selection you get the "Post" default which I've always interpreted as a mini printed page with a bent over
corner.

I'm just about to choose the Lightbulb!:D

Casper

chrisaw
May 2nd, 2012, 03:47 AM
As someone who's been accused of deliberately uploading an asset with missing dependencies, I'd like to say that it isn't always the creators fault. If I reference built in dependencies, and they aren't included in the next trainz build, why should I get the grief?

Just look at the number of times requests for "steam3" pop up. Perhaps CMP should show a warning if downloading assets for a previous version.
Chris.

Dinorius_Redundicus
May 2nd, 2012, 04:43 AM
..or perhaps Auran/N3V should publish built-in content from older Trainz versions on their own DLS if they are not to be included in a new version?

And they really should fix up the problem that Hiballer mentioned. It undermines the whole obsoleting system.

HiBaller
May 2nd, 2012, 07:31 AM
You may have just put your finger on the problem, Deane. The whole "obsolescence" thing is beginning to snowball into a large hairball. I realize that in order to make assets perform in newer versions of Trainz that they must conform to a stricter set of config rules. That's a given. However, what is beginning to happen now is that the very same keyword (like 'bendy', for instance) used to be a BOOLEAN. My programming background tells me that "0" is FALSE and anything else is TRUE. But now I am seeing "errors" in config files that flag a value of "2" as not being a BOOLEAN value. This is due to a change in error scanning from one version of Trainz to the next.

But, once again, this isn't addressing the overall problem of "obsolescence" and what can happen to a perfectly good asset when a new version of it appears "out there". My concern is how the devil does the DLS know there is a new version, but is unable to find it? Who, or what, tells the DLS?

Bill

shaneturner12
May 2nd, 2012, 08:10 AM
You must have a slightly different programming background than me.

I usually do it using binary methods (0=off/not present,1=on/present).

Shane

Dinorius_Redundicus
May 2nd, 2012, 06:30 PM
Yes, I thought it was a binary thing too, but I'm not a programmer. Maybe it's one of those Brit/US cultural differences like date formats...

Anyway, there is something seriously screwed up with the DLS which must be contributing to the 'missing assets' problem.

I had always assumed that Content Manager reflected what's on the 'Black Page' DLS once it had caught up with updates. However I am now certain it doesn't. The following kuids (a Volvo wheel loader by Swedish creator Sealpower) are examples of some TS2009 assets that are on the Black Pages, but I can only get by FTP, one asset at a time.

For me (maybe only me?) Download Helper and CM just don't recognize these kuids. Why?



<kuid:364762:1015>
<kuid:364762:1016>
<kuid:364762:1023>
<kuid:364762:1025>
<kuid:364762:1026>
<kuid:364762:1027>
<kuid:364762:1028>
<kuid:364762:1030>
<kuid:364762:1031>
<kuid:364762:1032>
<kuid:364762:1033>
<kuid:364762:1034>


I've activated a new First Class Ticket and done a database repair, and can even download more recent assets by the same author using CM, but the above kuids are still 'unknown' to my CM.

HiBaller
May 2nd, 2012, 06:47 PM
I agree, Deane, with your analysis. There is an ever-increasing gap between what is presented (and found) on the black pages versus what you can find using the various flavor of CM for each version of Trainz. In a few limited instances, I've been able to "find" what I am looking for using the black pages when CM is totally unable to find it. When I download a CDP and import it, then one of my "unlocatable" assets finally gets laid to rest.

Way back in the early days of programming when machine language was king, if you wanted a Boolean flag, you used a byte (8-bits). When you tested it (8080A language here, but the principle was the same for the 6500 Motorola series also), you used a CMP A,A or simply TST A. If it came back with the 'Zero flag" set, then there were no bits set in the byte; and you thought of it as FALSE; if it didn't set the Zero flag, then there was something in it - be it a single 00000001B or 01111111B (setting bit 7 meant negative value) then you got a Boolean TRUE. Various languages built on that mostly from FORTRAN, ADA, NELIAC, to BASIC through Visual basic/C++. If you needed a Boolean value, you used a type called BOOLEAN, but it consisted of a memory "word" (be it 8-bits, 16-bits, or 32-bits). If it had no bits set - then FALSE - any bits set, then TRUE. This can be illustrated by a Visual Basic statement "IF (Value) THEN go do something". Value can be a numerical value OR a BOOLEAN value, but it still adds up to the same thing.

Class dismissed. :wave:

Bill