PDA

View Full Version : Why Buy More Trainz?



QR1408
January 21st, 2012, 05:35 PM
Why should I purchase further versions of Trainz? Since TRS2006 released in 2005 I've been correcting errors in content and with each new version many assets have to be redone. Many of the "innovations" N3V has introduced seem to be just innovation for the sake of it serving no real purpose. One particular innovation "see through water" seems to me to be very divorced from reality. The idea that you can see bridge piers on the bottom of a river bank or the bottom of a ship's hull through the water is rather preposterous. The clanging thumping junction sound introduced in the TC series is very unrealistic. The rumbling sound in TRS was more close to the real thing. More innovations, 3D trees may be nice to have but nor really needed or "satellite view". Latest versions of Trainz now make some older assets virtually unusable, assets like tennis courts and 1942 school, with the surrounding mesh fences appearing almost solid. It seems that Trainz and the "Trainz Community" has now become more and more a means of pushing payware. Visit the Download Station and you're slapped in the face with N3V's payware at the top, as it is in this forum. Meanwhile I get N3V newsletters offering me discounts on items I already have. These are no longer newsletters just advertising. Sure N3V is welcome to do whatever to make a quid. However as I've already spent a considerable amount over 10 years on various versions of Trainz, downloadable content etc I don't need to be bombarded with all this. What once was an enjoyable hobby isn't with TS10 and 12. Therefore N3V won't be having me as a customer in the future. There are are better more enjoyable alternatives.

matruck
January 21st, 2012, 05:42 PM
No prob's just make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out, Have a nice life.
Cheers Mick.:wave:

Scottish
January 21st, 2012, 06:04 PM
You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not know why the rest us us who enjoy Trainz (warts and all) should be interested in your views. As you say, if you don't like it, don't do it.

Scottish

RRSignal
January 21st, 2012, 06:12 PM
I don't even know where to begin, though I'll second the above statements...

...though I enjoy fixing content, and have become a better CC because of it. I even developed an entire nightmoding method (yeah, it isn't as grand as it sounds.) But asset repair has helped me as much as it has helped anyone else.

matruck
January 21st, 2012, 06:16 PM
I even developed an entire nightmoding method
I don't want to get off topic...LOL Is there any chance you'll share this nightmode method with us one day RR.
Cheers Mick.:D

JohnnyC1
January 21st, 2012, 06:17 PM
See yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaa!

John

Dinorius_Redundicus
January 21st, 2012, 07:20 PM
@ QR1408

Well at the risk of being burned at the stake along with you, I have to say I agree with everything you said.

The water in Trainz has really fallen behind the times. I didn't realise it until I saw how beautifully it's done in a modern game like 'Skyrim'.

Likewise, Speedtrees were introduced which was OK in principle, but the examples they chose looked cheap, crude and unrealistic. Again, a look at any modern game shows you how well they can be done. Forcibly obsoleting some of the old and much-used built-in billboard trees with those 3D 'aliens' trashed many existing layouts. That was totally inconsiderate of N3V, I feel they had no right to do that.

Solid wire mesh fences, yeah, that's down to the unilateral decision not to support alpha-blended transparency in the old way - just a pity that thousands of old models relied on alpha blending.

I spent the first 8 mind-numbing months with TS2010 just eliminating 'errors' in old content, only to find that half the (now 'error free') spline objects still fail to show in native mode TS2010. Sure, you learn some things about content and the mistakes creators have made, but it's hardly what I would call enjoyable.

So, like you, I am dreading the day when I have to purchase a new version of Trainz because I know it will expose even more 'errors' that need fixing.

RRSignal
January 21st, 2012, 07:34 PM
I don't want to get off topic...LOL Is there any chance you'll share this nightmode method with us one day RR.
Cheers Mick.:D

It isn't anything near as mysterious as it sounds. I actually use the exact same method as regular nightmoding, but using the same mesh and textures; what makes it valuable is that it works if you don't have the original mesh. Otherwise, it's essentially just retexturing/reskinning.

Most of my assets, as well as Euphod's and DaveSnow's recent stuff, use this method. Download one or two and you'll see a regular folder and files with the daytime stuff, and a night folder with the exact same stuff but with nighttime textures. That's really it, no rocket science here.

FYI, Jayholland figured out a clever way to kind-of nightmode splines...

matruck
January 21st, 2012, 07:44 PM
Thank's RR i'll have a look at sum of your object's then, But i still think it's a bit harder then what sum of you make it too be pretty much like Route building either you can do it easily or you can't at all...LOL
Cheers Mick.:D

Scottbe8
January 21st, 2012, 08:13 PM
While I do agree with many of the views presented here, I don't think that's quite reason enough to throw in the towel. Rather, I implore you to take a few months and try to fix the program yourself. When you come back, you can admit that N3V has done a much better job than you were able to do. Unless you actually do better than N3V, in which case congratulations, mate.

cascaderailroad
January 21st, 2012, 08:27 PM
Probably the only problem with TS12 would be Surveyor losing work, but that is usually the end users fault by making mistakes with layers. And losing compatability mode, and having older versions assets not work in TS12.

TS10 ... I am waiting on it to arrive.

I am going to continue creating my route in TRS2006 ... and transfer it into TS10 for testing.

If I had bypassed TS10, and upgraded directly to TS12, I would do the same thing ... create routes in TRS2006 and transfer it into TS12.

QR1408
January 21st, 2012, 11:39 PM
Naturally the usual suspects with the usual half smart replies, "don't let the door hit you on the way out, if you can do better that N3V blah, blah." The point is N3V created these programmes and could have done a lot better over 10 years, but they haven't. The weather and night mode aren't very good and appear to be the same as the first Trainz. Trainz updated screenshots so now they save as jpg's. Maybe having the abilty to take in game videos might have been more useful, this feature is available in IL-2 Sturmovik a combat flight sim that's been around as long as Trainz. The type of trees used in Rise of Flight would have been a better alternative to Speedtrees, but N3V states that they are committed to them. I could put screenshots of N3V's trees along pix of real birches Aus gums and othesr to show just how wide of the mark they are. Water that reflect the sky and river banks would have been a useful update not the dubious ones N3V thinks we need, like removing particle effects control. Two screenshots from Rise of Flight WWI combat flight sim. First showing water reflecting sky and river banks, second RoF trees.
http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/fca05a72124c44b8e8192801c7faa991.jpg

http://www.hostthenpost.org/uploads/f81c499dafb346b62a247b92bd82769e.jpg

amrail2000
January 22nd, 2012, 12:40 AM
Nah, I can't bring my self to say it. What I will say , is I enjoyed trainz since my first copy. I've wanted to pull my hair since my first purchase.Shoot I've wanted to pull out other peoples hair (just kidding). I have disagreed with some people and N3V being one of those groups. Now having said that let me say this.
I have had alot of fun, and still do. I have also had the pleasure of meeting some very nice people that I now call friend. I have also learned alot. Oh and for N3V, I made it point to work directly with them. and even at that I have met some very nice people. So looking at the positives, YES IT"S WORTH IT. And given the choice I'd do it again. But that's just me. Oh and can I get some cheese?

RRSignal
January 22nd, 2012, 12:48 AM
Naturally the usual suspects with the usual half smart replies, "don't let the door hit you on the way out, if you can do better that N3V blah, blah." The point is N3V created these programmes and could have done a lot better over 10 years, but they haven't.

Er, okay. Are you mad that Trainz isn't a WWI sim?

Trainz is pretty dang hot for a ground sim. Nobody said is was a flight sim.

pware
January 22nd, 2012, 01:12 AM
He's from Queensland!

They're a strange lot up there.

But wait a minute ... Auran/N3V are also from Queensland!

I rest my case.

tension69
January 22nd, 2012, 01:30 AM
I bet the trees in Aus have shadows though.....maybe Aussies all wear VERY dark sunglasses and haven't noticed:p

I'll admit the track laying and landscaping tools are pretty good though;)

Deano5
January 22nd, 2012, 04:08 AM
Why? Because we enjoy the day to day tasks it can throw at us, never a dull or duplicate day.
Because if we didn't then there would be no more Trainz, no DLS, no forum and no more Trainz community to come and pull our hairs out in. :p

captainkman
January 22nd, 2012, 05:01 AM
He's from Queensland!

They're a strange lot up there.

But wait a minute ... Auran/N3V are also from Queensland!

I rest my case.
Yeah, Queenslanders really strange. Just look at my location!

QR1408:

If you do not like Trainz, bye bye. But if you decide to like it again, that would be great. :)

I'm not going to argue against you. It's your decision, but be prepared to regret it if you leave!

TheWaluigiKing
January 22nd, 2012, 05:34 AM
Not to mention that it's as hot as the sun up there!

pware
January 22nd, 2012, 05:46 AM
Maybe having the abilty to take in game videos might have been more useful, this feature is available in IL-2 Sturmovik a combat flight sim that's been around as long as Trainz. The type of trees used in Rise of Flight would have been a better alternative to Speedtrees,

I know absolutely nothing about those flight sim programs as Trainz is the only simulator I have but were the landscapes and scenery items (trees, aircraft, etc) shown in those screen shots created by users of the sim or by professional graphic designers?

steamboateng
January 22nd, 2012, 06:25 AM
A flight sim like FSX is similar to Trainz in that users can build and add on aircraft and scenery objects.

stovepipe
January 22nd, 2012, 06:39 AM
I know absolutely nothing about those flight sim programs as Trainz is the only simulator I have but were the landscapes and scenery items (trees, aircraft, etc) shown in those screen shots created by users of the sim or by professional graphic designers?

The latter it seems. Not sure how the OP can compare a locked down environment, to the sandbox you get with Trainz. Other than to have a no-paragraph rant of course.:D

Looks a good game though, I always enjoyed "Knights of the Sky" on the Amiga years ago.

CaptEngland
January 22nd, 2012, 06:54 AM
To the OP.

If you don't like Trainz because you think there's too much payware and adverts, look at Railworks and MSTS addons!

Also, people moan about needing to get a FCT each year. Add up how many items you get to download (and increasing each day) compared to the cost of just one addon and what you get in it for the same price!

I rest my case.

Regards.
CaptEngland :confused:

airtime
January 22nd, 2012, 06:58 AM
I have to agree in part with QR1408, about the water being clean and see-through, I have noticed this in the past in Trainz, but not in real life. However, I thought there was a control to change the water, so you can make the water a different colour and not see-through, even though reflecting the sky above would be a great advantage.

The only niggle I have in all the Trainz versions, is the mad thunderstorms that appear every 10 minutes throughout the day within built-in routes, especially in Engilsh routes, I live in England and I haven't seen a thunderstorm in over six months, and when they do appear, they last about an hour, and then they are gone for another six months.

However, all in all, I do like all my Trainz versions for different reasons, except for Trainz 2012, as I have found it buggy with the command menu freezing Trainz.

Joe Airtime

shaneturner12
January 22nd, 2012, 07:11 AM
If I remember correctly, the water settings can be controlled in Edit Environment in later versions of Trainz (TS2009 SP4 and later). Earlier versions used the World tab, which is the tab above the wheel (Train) tab.

I agree with you airtime regarding the thunderstorms - I usually end up with them fairly frequently when the weather is set to Periodic changeability. Goodness knows what it would be like if it's set to Extreme changeability.

Airtime, did you actually get anywhere further with your driver command issue? I am still available to assist with that one if needed.

Shane

mezzoprezzo
January 22nd, 2012, 07:31 AM
If I remember correctly, the water settings can be controlled in Edit Environment in later versions of Trainz (TS2009 SP4 and later). Earlier versions used the World tab, which is the tab above the wheel (Train) tab. ~snip~

Correct me if Iím wrong, but arenít these controls only for changing the water colour and surface wave conditions?

How does a user change that awful, totally see through, water effect? I hate it. It has no place in any realistic modelling.:(

If users cannot change it, then it should be reinstated to how it used to be, for any future version, if the Jet engine is to be retained.

Cheers
Casper

shaneturner12
January 22nd, 2012, 07:34 AM
In most Trainz versions, there is a control to change the water type, which may help. I'm working from memory on this though, as my Trainz is currently in Driver mode.

Shane

TRam__
January 22nd, 2012, 07:55 AM
even though reflecting the sky above would be a great advantageyou can make reflective water baseboard yourself, using 3D modeling programm supports convertation to trainz. If m.tbumpenv material is setted, the baseboard looks like
http://i.piccy.info/i7/b2d71bd5858d801e4b667aa591b52104/1-5-3918/28421607/TRam___20120122_0003_500.jpg (http://i.piccy.info/i7/6c9f84a043b888389c1b1acfd7b25347/1-5-3918/28117245/TRam___20120122_0003.jpg)
Also it is possible to introduce normal map (for waves) and to control the reflection with alpha channel of the main texture.

Currently the main graphics disadvantages are

1) the phototextures (that are usually obtained in the none of clowdly day) are shown "like they are" only when both environment diffuse and ambient colors are in the maximum position. It showld be double brighter in my opinian.
(in trs 2004 with cartoon textures this would be a dsiadvantage, but we are currently speaking about ts12)
2) the sun showld be much more unsharp. For exaple like this
http://savepic.su/609692.jpg
3) the tag "light 0" works only for minor number of grass splines... So they have to be corrected with normal maps
4) the rails (and other splines) are illuminated in a wrong way (also have to be corrected with normal maps)
http://i.piccy.info/i7/ff73a16e51bc2929013576ce82b09c3a/1-5-3884/24327951/TRam___20120121_0001_500.jpg (http://i.piccy.info/i7/fcd908f3d50775abad258ef66c5779f6/1-5-3884/24004081/TRam___20120121_0001.jpg)
http://i.piccy.info/i7/600bdb4fd8c1bf7d5707fe8caa36682a/1-5-3884/25012153/TRam___20120121_0002_500.jpg (http://i.piccy.info/i7/6dbdfc7d0618b16fbd62ce4ef245aa2d/1-5-3884/24653362/TRam___20120121_0002.jpg)
5) textures with normal maps and the ground are illuminated from one light source only
http://i.piccy.info/i7/2acd31455ab370464e97a2c855201222/1-5-3920/3435207/TRam___20120122_0004_500.jpg (http://i.piccy.info/i7/b04d3c9fa908c379a593c0b8ac480339/1-5-3920/3200066/TRam___20120122_0004.jpg)
6) the headlight beam angel of the loco is 10-15 degree, but not 90 :)
7) snow textures should be like
http://i.piccy.info/i7/6f6fded931a3210426eece8d47fb63eb/1-5-3681/27416183/TRam___20120115_0006_500.jpg (http://i.piccy.info/i7/c2e8d87273f5c6703660999fe4129b4d/1-5-3681/27303215/TRam___20120115_0006.jpg)

Euphod
January 22nd, 2012, 09:38 AM
What amuses me is that the clear, see through water is a feature that many members insisted on, so it was changed from the murky water that existed before. I don't think Auran has the ability to produce and publish a different simulator for each potential purchaser.

It's fine to point out other programs that "do things better" in one regard or another, but you must be sure to compare apples to apples, so how do the other programs stand up to trainz in other areas?

narrowgauge
January 22nd, 2012, 06:13 PM
I think it is worth pointing out that TS12 handles mesh fences and things like power lines correctly, whereas TS10 doesn't. It seems that most posts in this thread are from people with TS10 or earlier, and grumbling about an out-dated program is pointless.

If you don't have TS12, you have no basis for complaints.

Peter

lorma
January 22nd, 2012, 07:09 PM
You should purchase TS12 Because of the following reasons:

Better Content
Better Interface
More Routes
Jointedrail Content Built in
Doppler Effect
Realistic Operations
Realistic Sessions

A Lot more variety to do:)


Even though I don't have TS12. You should really consider buying it cause it's awesome.:) :D


EVEN though I have to wait another 2 weeks for my TS12 SB :'( :(

sparky15
January 22nd, 2012, 08:05 PM
Pick a version you like and run with it. Depends on what you want out of the sim. DLS access means nothing to me, screenshots mean nothing to me, operation does. There are better looking sims out there, none give me a railroad experience I seek like Trainz.
Break that down one more, newer versions of Trainz don't give me the multiple AI smooth running like the old. I find that more important than water or trees as I'm actually running the sim. I build model railroad type layouts with 4 or 5 AI trains doing their thing in plausible settings. Those trains can be the hokey CP GP9s built in. As long as the gameplay is smooth, never notice how bad they look in 2006 compared to, say, JointedRails's stuff, while operating. Stuttering and rubber banding I notice.
I was happy to dump Windows to run the Mac version native. Miserable in actually running the Mac version compared to booting into Windows to run 2006. Windows and 2006 will be coming back and the Mac version will join 09 and 12 on the shelf once my latest route is finished.
No offense to those who want all the pretty, not worth the degradation of game play for my needs. I have no intention of dropping $1500 on a new system to run a $40 program, especially when every program I have runs well on this system, including the older iteration of Trainz.
You can keep the DLS and access, I'll keep smooth operation with multiple AI on the small routes I build. And, I don't care how bad the water looks, especially when weaving my way around all that AI and following signals. Never notice in an operating session. Especially with all the great looking non DLS freeware out there creators have built.

As a note, I have bought JointedRail payware items. Some of the best I've seen. Useless to me if the program can't keep up for my needs.

Dave........

mikeaust
January 24th, 2012, 01:16 PM
I think a part of model trains has always been the tinkering and changing things.
I spend more time fixing content than running the game. I still run 4 versions on the one computer and enjoy using each one. A great deal of self satisfaction comes from getting content to run that originally wouldnt even load.
It is only a game and is meant to be enjoyed.
cheers,
Mike