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b9k9kiwi
November 21st, 2006, 09:57 PM
Actually, I have a range of Steam Locos which I drive quite successfully in cab control - using the keypad controls.

This is the method of control I wish to use - I am not interested in manipulating animated controls in cabview.

I have, however, one or two steam locos which, if I try and drive via keypad controls, simply sit there and sulk. They will accept driver commands of course, but will not move by way of any other control method (that I can find).

I presume there is a tutorial somewhere - but I can't find it. I've tried all the various keys on the keyboard but, apart from brake control, cannot find regulator (reverser) or throttle control.

If, with these models, the only method of control is via cabview - then they are dead and gone.

Any help or hints would be appreciated.

conrail92
November 21st, 2006, 10:05 PM
What i do is i customize my controls

"w" Throttel up
"s" throttel down
"q" Forward
"a" reverse
"E" Brake full
"d" brake release

That way there all in one general area

To drive a steam loco Baisicly its theses steps

1 Put loco in forward or reverse
2 Release breaks
3 Set rehulator to full throttel

And frrom there you should be going foward or reverse. Now adeventualy you'll haft to manage water pressure and things. Witch im not all that sure of because i dont drive steam often.

Skinna
November 21st, 2006, 10:42 PM
regulator (reverser) or throttle control.



The regulator and the reverser are two different things. The regulator controls the steam to the cylinders (throttle) and the reverser controls the valve cutoff (FWD/REV).

philskene
November 22nd, 2006, 02:16 AM
Hi b9k9kiwi --

You raise two issues:

1. Cabs that will not respond.
2. How to drive a steam locomotive using the key pad.

For the first, you might find that the cab is not set up to work in Cab Mode. If this is the case you will need to alias to one that is - for instance, the Big Boy.

For the second, in the more recent sessions that I have uploaded to the Download Station that feature steam locomotives there is an extensive readme file that outlines how to drive to best effect.

This is an extract from the readme:

As experienced Engineers can I assume that we will all be using Cab Mode for this session? Correct? Use the Cab Mode, outside view (press the 2-key).

For both diesel and steam locomotives, pressing the A-key applies the train brakes. Press it multiple times for a full application; pressing Z (the lap position) followed by A will give an immediate full brake application. Q releases the train brake. E is the locomotive brake (also known as the independent brake because it works independently of the rest of the train) toggle. Press it once and the locomotive brakes apply; press again and they release. The locomotive brakes apply and release faster than the train brake, but only operate on the locomotive (at least in real life; the simulation seems to work a little differently). Watch the brake cylinder pressure in the Head Up Display. This gives an indication of the braking force being applied.

When coupling onto a rake of freight or passenger cars, make a full brake application and release to check that all the air hoses are connected

Driving a steam locomotive in Cab Mode is a challenge and you will be spending much more time reacting to gauges and adjusting the controls than looking at the scenery.

The most important features of steam locomotive driving are:
1. The correct use of regulator and reverser.
2. Maintaining the water level in the boiler.
3. Maintaining boiler pressure.

1. Regulator and reverser:

The settings of regulator and reverser are shown in the Head Up Display.

The position of the regulator and reverser can also be seen in the cab internal view (press the 1-key), though I do suggest actually driving the locomotive using the external view (2-key).

Drive with the regulator fully open. Control the speed with the reverser.

The reason for this is simple - the locomotive will work most efficiently if the full boiler pressure is being applied to the pistons in the cylinders. The regulator strangles the flow of steam, so at less than the fully open position of the regulator less than full pressure is applied to the pistons.

The reverser controls the cut-off, which is a measure of the duration of the steam admission to the cylinders. In full forward gear (something like 70 to 80% cut-off in most steam locomotives), steam is admitted to the cylinders for most of the stroke of the piston. At 10% cut-off steam is admitted for only 10% of the stroke, reducing the power significantly but maintaining high efficiency.

To start the locomotive, select full forward gear (press the F-key, multiple times if necessary). release the brakes (Q-key) and progressively open the regulator (W-key). Once underway open the regulator fully (W-key, multiple times) and reduce the cut-off (R-key, multiple times if necessary) to maintain an appropriate speed.

Negative cut-off equals reverse, so when moving forward keep the cut-off positive.

If speed falls when ascending a bank or when accelerating from a signal check, the cut-off might need increasing. Press the F-key.

The S-key (press multiple times) closes the regulator.

To reverse, press the R-key multiple times.

2. Maintaining the water level in the boiler:

The quantity of water in the boiler is shown in the Head Up Display and also in the water gauge in the cab.

The boiler converts water into steam. As the steam is consumed by the cylinders the water level falls.

Additional water is pumped into the boiler by injectors, which are controlled by the I-key and the O-key. The I-key turns the injectors on; the O-key turns them off. There are several positions for the injectors. Press the I-key multiple times for the maximum setting. Press the O-key multiple times to turn them off.

The position of the injectors can be seen in the internal cab view. Press the I and O-keys while scanning the cab ([ , ] and arrow keys). See which levers, taps or knobs move.

Try to maintain the water level at about 70%. Avoid 100% which causes water to carry over into the cylinders, destroying them, or less than about 50% which can cause the top of the firebox to be above the water level and melt, with potentially disastrous consequences if the fusible plugs fail to dampen the fire.

3. Maintaining boiler pressure.

The boiler pressure is shown in the Head Up Display and also on a gauge in the cab.

Burning coal heats the water to produce steam. As the steam is consumed or water injected into the boiler the boiler pressure falls.

Add coal to the fire by pressing the Space Bar (the fire door is animated in the internal view) to increase boiler pressure. The best firing technique is to add coal a little often.

The maximum boiler pressure depends on the particular class of locomotive. It might be shown on the pressure gauge inside the cab; otherwise note the boiler pressure when the session begins. Exceeding the maximum boiler pressure causes the safety valves to pop, wasting steam, water and coal.

The draft effect from the exhaust steam as it passes up the blast pipe to the chimney makes the fire burn bright, generating more heat. The blast is most intense at speed with full regulator and at full cut-off. When stationary or when moving at slow speeds it may be necessary to use the blower to create the desired blast to keep the fire burning brightly.

Use the N-key to open the blower and Shift-N to turn it off. Again, there is an animation inside the cab.

__________


In real life, steam locomotives would travel considerable distances without re-coaling but many "stops for locomotive purposes" were needed to refill the tender with water.

Right click on the tender to view the remaining coal and water.

For those who want to make the session a little more interesting and who feel comfortable editing the config.txt file, I suggest reducing the water capacity of the tender and increasing the coal capacity. This makes it imperative to maintain a watchful eye on water consumption, to drive in a way that conserves water, and makes it essential "to stop when necessary for locomotive purposes" as authorised in the Dispatcher orders.

To do this, find the folder containing the tender (use TrainzObjectz for TRS2004 and CMP for TRS2006), open the config.txt file and change the coal capacity and initial quantity to 15000 and the water to 5000.

In TRS2004 remember to the delete dispatcher.chump file after doing the editing for the changes to take effect; in TRS2006 remember to commit.

Good luck,
Phil

Alex23
November 22nd, 2006, 02:28 AM
Hi b9k9kiwi


I have, however, one or two steam locos which, if I try and drive via keypad controls, simply sit there and sulk. They will accept driver commands of course, but will not move by way of any other control method (that I can find).


As Stated elsewhere, There are some engines that have a problem when used "Cab Mode".

If you could mention which ones they are, I may be able to help, or at least give you some info. regarding them.

Cheer's,

Alex

b9k9kiwi
November 22nd, 2006, 04:39 AM
...
As Stated elsewhere, There are some engines that have a problem when used "Cab Mode".

If you could mention which ones they are, I may be able to help, or at least give you some info. regarding them.
...



The locos I specifically would like to control via the keyboard in cab mode are;

DD17 4-6-4ST Class kuid:93502:97
LD/RhB 'Engadin'/'Raethia' kuid:130544:1942/1943

Alex23
November 22nd, 2006, 09:10 AM
Hi b9k9kiwi,

I have D/L the three engines tonight. Unfortunately its after midnight so I'll have to leave it till tomorrow if I can get home in time to take a closer look.

I suspect the DD17 just needs a cabin script file. But the two other engines may need some deeper surgery.

If you can give me some time to look at them, I'll get back asap.

Nice engines those two 2-6-0's.:)

Cheer's

Alex

Alex23
November 23rd, 2006, 01:02 AM
Hi b9k9kiwi,

Well I've had a chance to have a look at the DD17, and all it required was a cabin script which I pinched from my BR WC/BoB updated bullied.

Script and sound file by Rob_pearson and the brew crew.

How are you at playing with configuration files?

I'll have a look at the 2-6-0's later.

Alex

PS What version of trainz are you using? To fix this engine, you will need to use CMP or Trainzobjects.

b9k9kiwi
November 23rd, 2006, 02:47 PM
...
How are you at playing with configuration files?
...


I hack config files about unashamedly. I probably spend more time in TrainzObjectz than I do actually playing Trainz :)

I altered the loco config files in line with your suggestion by simply changing the interiors to a built-in one. I can at least edge them both on and off of a turntable now(I use driver commands for the great majority of my Trainzing) - I would appreciate your advice as to a more elegant fix.

As you say, the Engadin/Raethia locos are nice little models - 'though I am not so keen on the animated fireman figure (these are 1 metre/3ft6in locomotives for those observing this thread).

Thank you for the time you are devoting to this.

leeferr
November 23rd, 2006, 03:33 PM
To be honest, I haven't done a lot of in cab driving. Just seemed too complicated for my simple mind. I was wondering if purchase of RailDriver would simplify the process enough to make it worth the expense?

newvista
November 23rd, 2006, 03:46 PM
What i do is i customize my controls

"w" Throttel up
"s" throttel down
"q" Forward
"a" reverse
"E" Brake full
"d" brake release




I'd love to customize my controls! Can you point me to more information on that?

Lorne.

newvista
November 23rd, 2006, 03:58 PM
Phil:

Thank you for that excellent steam driving tutorial. Now I understand much better what I have been messing with!

I am a huge fan of your astounding layouts. Now that I have installed Trainz 2004, I can't wait to run everything again. 06 has been frustrating for me 'cause 99% of scenarios just don't work.

Also, thanks for the tips on how to access the documentation for each session and futzing with config files. I'm just now digging into TrainzObjectz.

Say... what is the difference between a session and a scenario?

Thanks,
Lorne.

Alex23
November 23rd, 2006, 07:08 PM
I hack config files about unashamedly. I probably spend more time in TrainzObjectz than I do actually playing Trainz :)

I altered the loco config files in line with your suggestion by simply changing the interiors to a built-in one. I can at least edge them both on and off of a turntable now(I use driver commands for the great majority of my Trainzing) - I would appreciate your advice as to a more elegant fix.

As you say, the Engadin/Raethia locos are nice little models - 'though I am not so keen on the animated fireman figure (these are 1 metre/3ft6in locomotives for those observing this thread).

Thank you for the time you are devoting to this.

That makes things easy then. I'll post my suggested way of dealing with the DD17 later today. Forgive me if somethings are obvious in what I post, it's just that the others may wish to try the same methods to get some engines running in "Cab Mode".

Till Later,

Alex

b9k9kiwi
November 23rd, 2006, 10:57 PM
...
haven't done a lot of in cab driving
...


What we are talking about here is 'Cab Mode' (using keyboard control) as opposed to 'DCC' mode (twiddling that wheely thing) - so we are not actually talking about 'In Cab' driving (reading guages, manipulating levers and wheels and the like).

Keep listening :)

Midland
November 24th, 2006, 04:43 AM
I've been following this thread with some interest as I ALWAYS drive in "cab mode".

My preference is for the numeric keypad controls but I won't confuse things by explaining them here.

Most of the time I sit in cab view and use the keypad to control the loco going to external views when I need to shunt or load or unload wagons.

If I'm using cab view in a diesel it is possible to close off all the onscreen data and HUD and operate quite easily using the mouse to move the onscreen controls. The gauges give adequate information on speed, amperage and air brake operation without the need for the HUD.

It's quite feasible to do this with steam locos but there are two issues that make it more complicated and tricky. One is working out how much cut-off is being used. With the American lever type reverser it's relatively easy to see if you are in forward or reverse but the amount of cut-off is a little harder to determine. With the Australian screw reverser it's almost totally impossible to tell how much cut-off is being used and equally impossible to tell if you're in forward or reverse!

The other problem is being able to read the water-level gauges to an extent that you can accurately determine if it's getting overfull or too low.

Both of these things could be overcome with a minor modification to both controls. In the case of the water-level gauge by fixing a mark at the ideal level so that when it drops below it you can turn on the injector and as it goes above it you can reduce or turn off the injector. For the screw reverser it could be a simple dial that moves either 'forward" or "reverse" with gradations that represent varying degrees of cut-off. If anyone has played with the Garratt in the Spoorsim simulation you'll know what I am talking about as that had this system.

Even with these difficulties I have successfully driven steam locos in cab view with the HUD turned off. It's just a matter of watching the boiler pressure gauge, the speedometer and the airbrake gauges. They work fairly well and it's quite a different driving experience when you do do it that way.

Steam locos add a lot of extra interest to a session as you have to monitor coal and water consumption (loading up when needed) as well as maintaining boiler pressure and water-level. The demands on the boiler change with different conditions. Heavy loads; going uphill; going downhill; starting off; running at speed. After a while you can pick up techniques and driving habits that will conserve your resources.

Many of the drivers I worked with on the diesels had been firemen on the old steamers. A driver who resolutely drove with the reverser in the corner (75% cut-off) would make the fireman's job hell. He would be shovelling coal continuously (and unnecessarily) and taking on water at just about every station. I was even told stories where blokes had come to blows over this! In Trainz you get to do both jobs so it behoves you to perfect both aspects.

But even if you don't like driving steam locos and only drive diesels, try doing it in cab view with the HUD turned off. Learn to read the gauges. It's a lot of fun and quite realistic.




Cheers

Nix

leeferr
November 24th, 2006, 10:40 AM
What we are talking about here is 'Cab Mode' (using keyboard control) as opposed to 'DCC' mode (twiddling that wheely thing) - so we are not actually talking about 'In Cab' driving (reading guages, manipulating levers and wheels and the like).

Keep listening :)

sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm relatively new at this, so I think I'll follow this thread closely and soak up some knowledge from the experts.
thanks

Alex23
November 25th, 2006, 12:52 AM
Hi Everyone,

This is my recomended way of adding full "Cab Mode" control for engines with this Type of interior. It has the advantage of a finer control for Throttle and Reverser, which is most helpfull with low speed light engine movements. It also has the bonus of the "Optional Fireman Programme" that you may turn on or off as you so desire "in game".

1/. You will need the parts. Therefore I have nominated my BR West Country/Battle of Britain 4-6-2 Kuid:193148:1219 You will need to have this engine, and it is available on the DLS.

2/. Open the file for the interior that comes with this engine, kuid:193148:1200, and copy and paste the following files to your Desktop:-

Sound
steamcabinfireman.gs
steamlocomotive.gs

You can now close off the WC/BoB as you have now finished with it.

3/. Open the dd17 engine lococab kuid:93502:55054. Copy and paste the three files, Sound, steamcabinfireman.gs and steamlocomotive.gs from your desktop to the dd17 lococab file, and leave the file open.

4/. Open the config.txt. Copy and paste the following under the description Tag:-

script "steamcabinfireman"
class "SteamCabinwithFireman"

Close config.txt, Yes to save, and close lococab file.

5/. Open dd17 engine 4_6_4st class engine folder. copy and paste from desktop steamlocomotive.gs file only to this folder and leave folder open.

6/. Open config.txt and copy and paste the following below the tag trainz-build:-

script "steamlocomotive"
class "SteamLocomotive"

Before closing the config.txt, change cattegory-class to "AS". Close config.txt, save changes and close dd17_engine folder.

7/. Whilst you are dealing with this engines files, open dd17_engine_50064_bogey kuid:93502:50064, open config.txt and insert the following line after animdist 3.5 :-

direct-drive 0

Close config.txt, saving changes and close file.

8/. Commit all files if in CMP or delete dispatcher chump if in trainzobjectz.

And that is all there is to it.

If you already have the engine placed in surveyor, then delete and resellect.

If you run into difficulty, post here and help will be at hand.

This modification can be done with any steam engine that has this type of UTC cab. Engadin and raethia I suspect will have a similar method to correction, But I need to try them before I suggest a course of action. They are a different set up.

Cheer's for now,

Alex

b9k9kiwi
November 25th, 2006, 02:50 AM
Thanks - will do.

I will let you know how it goes.

b9k9kiwi
November 26th, 2006, 12:02 AM
I have updated the config of the DD17 as you suggested and (with a print out of your excellent tutorial to hand) have successfully (and relatively efficiently) shunted wagons, entered and exited a turntable easily and can now control the little beast between periods of driver command control.

Thank you so much for your help.

On one hand I would prefer to control steam locos via the keypad (as with diesel locos) but on the other hand, and on reflection, it makes sense to have a completely different control system for a locomotive that utilises a completely different power train system.

As it happens, I have discovered that the 'Engadin'/'Reathia' locos respond perfectly well to the left-hand side keyboard controls as they are - I simply didn't know how to do it.

While we are at it, and as a digression, I see that the DD17 now has an all white driver figure in the cab (I can't recall it having one before the config mods). I have asked this question before to no avail - how do you get a uniform onto these otherwise ghostly white guys?

rweber95
November 26th, 2006, 01:13 AM
I noticed that the DD17 has messed up shadow folders for the loco (93502:97) and both bogie files (93502:50063, 50064). Each has 6 or 7 xxx.texture.txt files that are not used. I deleted them and copied a black.texture.txt and a black.tga file (standard files that I keep for repairing faulty files) into each shadow folder. Gets rid of CMP errors and gives the locos proper shadows.

Bob

Alex23
November 26th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Hi Guys,

Tony is absolutely correct about the Shadow files. Thanks Tony, I hadn't included it as I was covering the Cabin script.

I will try to have a look at Engadin tonight possibly tomorrow tonight as I have a fair bit to get through today and tomorrow.

Happy she's working well for you b9k9kiwi.

cheer's for now,

Alex:)

CBorg
November 29th, 2006, 02:43 AM
Phil:


Say... what is the difference between a session and a scenario?

Thanks,
Lorne.

Hi Lorne,

I ask have asked myself the same question. After doing a few scenarios, I come up the following idea that:
a session is the actual rolling stock and locomotives you have on the map
a scenario is the way you use that rolling stock and locomotives.

But maybe I could be wrong...:)

nawlins
November 29th, 2006, 02:51 PM
A Session is a non scripted driving session, with or with out AIs. No pop up instructions, etc.
A Scenario contains specific instructions, usually in the form of pop up on screen directions and , most importantly, a time schedule to complete your appointed tasks. Usually, points are added or subtracted to your score as you proceed through the scenario.
There is also a hibrid session, where the instructions are provided in the kuid folder for you to print out. The Urban Industries series is a good example. (By Phil Skeene)
Hope that helps! :)

philskene
November 29th, 2006, 03:52 PM
Hi Chris --

"The Urban Industries series is a good example. (By Phil Skeene)"

Hmm! "I don't care what they say about me, as long as they spell my name correctly."

Urban IndustRail - philskene

Seriously though, the main problem with the readme and maps in the folder containing the session is that some have difficulty finding them.

But on the other hand I hate scripted activities where points are awarded or deducted. I guess this reflects my shortline philosophy where I know that each and every one of my IndustRail workers, from the Dispatcher and Engineers down to the humblest clerk, is working his or her butt off to get the job done as efficiently as possible.

Just don't expect points in my sessions. Maybe an occasional "Well done", but its all about the inner satisfaction of keeping the freight moving and our customers happy.

Phil

nawlins
November 30th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Phil, I am mortified! :o The mis-spelling was a slip of the finger. So sorry! I love your work and I agree with your philosophy for session activity. It allows for some ad-libing as well. :)

Regards

leeferr
December 4th, 2006, 08:52 PM
In the last couple of days, I thought I'd try my hand at 'in-cab' driving of some steam locos and I've found it to be a real challenge and a lot of fun. Midland suggests trying it with HUD turned off, and I may try that once I get a little more practice. I'm still having a little problem getting the train to stop exactly where I want it to. I can get close, but I guess it takes a lot of practice. Mostly, I've been practicing starting and stopping and maintaining speed limits. I may get hooked the more I do it.
The advice in this thread has been a lot of help.
Just wanted to say thanks to all.

philskene
December 5th, 2006, 05:11 AM
Hi leeferr --

Once you get more confident, perhaps consider this session, "IndustRail 8a InvercargillLtd".

"This session is for Urban IndustRail 8a. All items of rolling stock are on the Download Station and will be installed automatically when the session is downloaded.
You will be in charge of the Invercargill Limited, the limited stop passenger train from Hyde to Invercargill. You have a choice of crewing either a diesel or a steam locomotive. It will give you a chance to let that S-class steam locomotive show its paces, or let you open that diesel locomotive up to notch 8 and let it run.
It is getting towards the end of your shift. You and Joe bought a roadside freight north from Picton and are servicing the locomotive at the Picton Classification. The return trip will be your final turn before signing off. You check the orders you have just received from the Dispatcher:
Finish loco servicing.
Proceed light engine to Hyde, attach passenger cars and shunt to face platform.
Depart Hyde with stops at Picton, Galore, Dunedin, and Hayfore.
Terminate at Invercargill.
Leave passenger cars and proceed light engine to Invercargill Loco.
Sign off.
Class 1 railroad trains will be running at 5 minute intervals.
You are authorised to travel at up to 60mph except in yard areas where normal limits apply.
You are authorised to stop when necessary for locomotive purposes.
Ends.
Maps and a readme file are included. Stops are indicated in red on the maps."

Or even "Austral 5a BasinHarborExp".

You will find them a challenge!

Phil

TristenEugene
December 6th, 2006, 05:41 AM
For added realism, go into the settings in surveyor and add wheelslip to the mix. This is nice!! Just like a real steam loc. Too much throttle starting out and the drivers will brake loose and spin.

leeferr
December 6th, 2006, 11:10 AM
thanks both of you. I'll try it.