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Maddox61
November 9th, 2011, 06:51 PM
OK. So I am off to try and create a layout. I am new and while learning I wanted to be creating at the same time, (ie, All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!)

I have a couple questions about the Baseboard.

Size is 720m x 720m in Real Scale. Thus, 1 baseboard is equal to 1.38km or .857 miles. This would rerquire 2.235 baseboards to make a mile.

The layout I am looking at is the same one I had in mind when I started with Trainz 4 months ago. The D&RG routes. The Royal Gorge route from Cannon City to Salida alone is around 80 miles. This would require 188 baseboards.:confused:
Does this sound right? And would Trainz be able to create a layout that large?

I know these layouts require a large amount of time to create, but considering there are only a few stops between them locations, most of the layout would only consist of rock cliffs, trees and shrubs.

The other route from Pueblo Colorado to Cannon City would be the one with all the residential and commercial buildings as well as the main train yards in Pueblo.

Most cities on the Gorge route are no more than a couple of blocks long with less than 10 buildings in each. This would cut down on the build time, allowing no more than 1 day for each baseboard, (Excluding the boards that include the towns). Most of the route has only one mainline.

Is this posible? If it is, I do understand that it would take over a year to do something like this. I just don't want to start something and after 3 or 4 months of work, find that there is a limit to the number of baseboards or such.

Thanks,
Merrill

BLACKWATCH
November 9th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Size is 720m x 720m in Real Scale. Thus, 1 baseboard is equal to 1.38km

Your maths is way out, 1 baseboard is equal to 720m (or 0.62 miles) because you need 1000m to equal 1km.

Jacobchgo19
November 9th, 2011, 07:49 PM
(ie, All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!)

Casting Crowns american dream right>?

mtldrm38
November 9th, 2011, 09:14 PM
pending on your comp.,the better, the bigger the route.........theyre are a few out theyre with a couple thousand boards.......

IamKJVonly2
November 9th, 2011, 09:33 PM
Maddox61

There is nothing in trainz that would stop you from building a layout of that size.

How long it takes depends on how quickly you master surveyor espically the copy and paste function and just how detailed you want to make the layout and how accurately you want to make it compared to the real route.

If you want to be extremelly accurate you may have to learn how to make a DEM of the actual route and it takes quite a while to learn how to do it.

I don't want to discurage you because you can get a lot of fun and enjoyment out of making a route.

Dave

BobCass
November 9th, 2011, 09:34 PM
Maddox61: The first thing is to check you computer specs to see that drivers are up to date and how much Ram you have(Memory)..I think you will find that a baseboard and Half is approximately 1 mile..There are Guides on the DLS that can guide you through mile Lengths, curves etc..Go for it..:wave: :wave:

amrail2000
November 9th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Maddox61: The first thing is to check you computer specs to see that drivers are up to date and how much Ram you have(Memory)..I think you will find that a baseboard and Half is approximately 1 mile..There are Guides on the DLS that can guide you through mile Lengths, curves etc..Go for it..:wave: :wave:
Ok, here's a straight forward answer. Yes the route you are wanting is very much possible and do-able. The speed of the route depends on your computer. It takes two baseboards to make one mile. Yes one and half is more accurate,but you can't get half a board. The idea is take your time and have fun. If you have any questions please feel free to send me a pm, and I be more than happy to help you in any way I can.

schweitzerdude
November 9th, 2011, 10:22 PM
There are users on this forum who have mentioned they have routes with 10,000 plus baseboards! I'm sure they have awesome PCs.

I personally am working on a route that uses terrain-only maps by fishlipsatwork (Anchorage South and Anchorage North) combined and I'm sure there are 2,000 plus baseboards. Now most of these will remain wilderness and never developed except to be used as backgrounds for the main rail lines. I like terrain-only routes simply because until I get into TransDem, it's a good way to get realistic mountainous terrain.

Suggestion: Look at all the built-in routes in your version of Trainz, and particularly the largest ones. This will give you an idea of how large routes run on your particular computer.

In TS2010, I'm guessing ECML-King's Cross-York is the largest built-in route - anyone know how many baseboards? Many thousands for sure.

cascaderailroad
November 9th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Working with a DEM is really hard !

Sure ... from looking from straight down you can get all the straights and curves correct ... but when you apply gradients, a 35 mile stretch can take days, and easily weeks to get all the gradients to be unlike a rollercoaster.

When you have a -3.76% grade, and the next section is +2.78% ... it can get real madning !

Most of my gradients are @ 0.40%, and at maximum 1.75%, the exception is the "Slide" witch is 2.37% and is used by downhill trains, as it is much too steep for a long train.

I could have created a route from Camden NJ, to Conway yard in Pittsburgh, if I had done it on flat baseboards ... I'm guessing @ 500,000 of them !:hehe:

Condencing that same route, to display only the great railfanning sites, could be done on only several hundered flat baseboards though.

Dermmy
November 10th, 2011, 12:26 AM
There are users on this forum who have mentioned they have routes with 10,000 plus baseboards! I'm sure they have awesome PCs.

Route size and computer 'awesomness' are utterly unrelated. You can run a 10,000 board route on any computer that is within spec. My original East Kentucky route was built on a machine below minimum spec for TRS04. What will grind a computer to a standstill is not the size of the route, but the content used on the route. When considering route performance the size of the route whether measured in miles, kilometers or baseboard count is irrelevant...


Working with a DEM is really hard...

I know you struggle with it Cascade, but imho there is no easier way to make a 'big' route than use a DEM, specially something like the route proposed in the OP. If imported from HOG The DEM will give you something approximating the landform as seen by the railroad engineers before construction commenced. Laying the track through a 'virgin' landscape is probably the part of routebuilding that I enjoy the most. If that ain't your thing then using TransDEM will give you a route with the track already laid and the trackbed formed...

Andy :)

cascaderailroad
November 10th, 2011, 12:59 AM
You mean to tell me that TransDEM will lay track and exact gradients, automaticly ?

Why are Scrachy, Others, and I, working adjusting gradients by hand ?

Then man that created my DEM, did it using very exact satelite data, and TransDEM ... but the railbed gradients are off quite a bit, and railbed contours need cutting, so gradients are not hugely way off from the prototype. See: ---> http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showpost.php?p=729412&postcount=3

If TransDEM makes a routes gradients and lays track precisely ... why are not all routes in the world made allready ?

If it was so possible to precisely lay track automaticly ... a Horsehoe Curve route would have been made 6 years ago by someone who had payware TransDEM.

And a TransDEM route creator that had this tallent, would have a corner on a huge market, being able to charge on a commision, the creation of custom built TransDEM routes for other people.

geophil
November 10th, 2011, 04:55 AM
TransDEM is only the mediator.

Basically there are two data sources for proper alignment, either an accurate DEM or accurate 3D track geometry in vector form. TransDEM can process both.

The easiest way is the high-res DEM. In one of the later postings in the other thread you refer to I showed an 1/9 arc sec NED DEM where you can make out the right-of-way in all details, cuttings, high-fills, locations of bridges and overpasses, tunnel portals, etc.

The alternative data source would be 3D track geometry. Admittedly, unless you have an excellent relationship with your favourite railroad company it will be difficult to acquire original data. Instead, it will be a DIY job in most cases, but it would be carried out with a dedicated CAD tool, not with Trainz Surveyor. TransDEM will take the completed 3D track geometry and adjust low-res DEM terrain accordingly (allow for occasional glitches). Challenge here is to find a suitable and affordable tool.

Maddox61
November 10th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Your maths is way out, 1 baseboard is equal to 720m (or 0.62 miles) because you need 1000m to equal 1km.


I was half asleep.

BobCass

I checked on a number of different conversion calculators and I come up with,

1 mile is equal to 1609.344m to be exact and if the tables are 720m then 720m/1609.344m would be 2.2352 boards.
I double checked and 1 mile is 1.609km
Unless I am calculating this wrong.

Does Trainz recognize 1.5 boards as being 1 mile?

If so, then Trainz has a real bad flaw in calculating distance.

SOmeone is wrong. Maybe me, I don't know.:D

clam1952
November 10th, 2011, 06:37 PM
Trainz does not interpret 1.5 boards as a mile, that was a rough guess OK for made up fictitious routes. For true representations each board is 720 x 720 metres, no more no less. Work in metres when constructing and there isn't a problem.
The only restriction you have on number of boards is the capability of your PC. 80 miles may not seem like it but is small route compared to many routes and well within the capabilities of in spec PC's

Euphod
November 10th, 2011, 07:22 PM
http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/43cb5b645190d4a64bbf289c1dfd65de.jpg

One blank baseboard, Imperial Measurements, Ruler Tool in feet, from one side to the other. About two and one quarter baseboards to make one mile, by my calculations.

Maddox61
November 10th, 2011, 09:52 PM
Trainz does not interpret 1.5 boards as a mile, that was a rough guess OK for made up fictitious routes. For true representations each board is 720 x 720 metres, no more no less. Work in metres when constructing and there isn't a problem.
The only restriction you have on number of boards is the capability of your PC. 80 miles may not seem like it but is small route compared to many routes and well within the capabilities of in spec PC's

Thanks clam1952,

That had me a bit spooked.

I'm using a 4gig win 7/64bit,only downfall is it has a buildt in Graphics card. I just baught it about 2 months ago. I now know I should have had one buildt for me rather buy a packaged system.

Trouble is, I checked on installng a new card and bumping the ram up to 8gigs, but found out that I then would need to upgrade the power supply to run everything. And that would require me to replace the motherboard.

I'm kinda in a catch-22, so I am going to try and make due with this one for a bit before I go and spend another bundle on another new PC.

Besides, I gotta sleep with the wife!;)

Maddox61
November 10th, 2011, 09:57 PM
http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/43cb5b645190d4a64bbf289c1dfd65de.jpg

One blank baseboard, Imperial Measurements, Ruler Tool in feet, from one side to the other. About two and one quarter baseboards to make one mile, by my calculations.


Good deal Euphod,

Thanks,

And many thanks for all the speedy replies, you have all been a greate help.
:)

Kon1786
November 10th, 2011, 10:42 PM
Good deal Euphod,

Thanks,

And many thanks for all the speedy replies, you have all been a greate help.
:)


I used the same method for making Mileage markers at signals etc.. i got about 10 miles and its been pretty accurate going by the custom HUD

Maddox61
November 10th, 2011, 11:42 PM
I have finished the terrain map last night as far as the ellevations for the entire route.

I have it boken down into 20 maps, each is set at 2048 x 2048 and is broken down into an 8 x 8 grid consististing of 64 smaller maps at 256 x256 each. Each of these 256 x 256 maps will be broken down to 1km x 1km sections.

I was going to map the terrain manualy but would like to know more about this TrainsDem program.

I tried to get the TransDem and the site I found was not in English and I could not understand how to get the program.

If anyone knows of an English version or can direct me to the site for the download, I would be very grateful.

Thanks again.

Merrill

JCitron
November 10th, 2011, 11:47 PM
Merrill,

This might help:

http://www.rolandziegler.de/StreckeUndLandschaft/transdemTrainz_Engl.htm

John

Maddox61
November 10th, 2011, 11:55 PM
Well I'm a happy camper,

Just found out that each of my 256 x 256 grid squares is exactly 1,000m or 1km. That sure worked out nice. Now all I need to do is figure out how I am going to get it into Trainz.

Doing it manualy, I was going to create a plain with the image textured to it and try and add it to Trainz like an asset. So, don't laugh, I know there is a way to do this, but I was taught to figure out a way to get things done, one way or another, right or wrong. :hehe:

JCitron
November 11th, 2011, 12:01 AM
Well I'm a happy camper,

Just found out that each of my 256 x 256 grid squares is exactly 1,000m or 1km. That sure worked out nice. Now all I need to do is figure out how I am going to get it into Trainz.

Doing it manualy, I was going to create a plain with the image textured to it and try and add it to Trainz like an asset. So, don't laugh, I know there is a way to do this, but I was taught to figure out a way to get things done, one way or another, right or wrong. :hehe:

If you want to go this route, pun intended, try using Base map objects. They are essentially blank plains that your substitute a generic image with your own. They come in sets so you can cut your image up and paste them on multiple base maps.

To use them you place them in your route and sink them a smidge below the terrain and use mesh-view of the landscape. With TS2010 and TS12, you can lock them in place using the lock-layer feature.

With the base map in place and ready to go, you now simply place objects on to of them like tracks, buildings, etc. in their corresponding place.

In the past I've used base maps to create a couple of small routes. One of them is up on the DLS. Look for Scenic and Relaxed. Everything is there except one building, which you can replace with whatever you wish.

John

Maddox61
November 11th, 2011, 12:16 AM
Merrill,

This might help:

http://www.rolandziegler.de/StreckeUndLandschaft/transdemTrainz_Engl.htm

John

Thanks John,

I checked them out and found that you must order the program Via email.
So I think I am going to have a go at creating the terrain manualy. It will most likely be time consuming, but fun none the less. Not to mention the experience I will gain from this.

However, I will be looking into TrainsDem for the future. Looks interesting.

Thanks for the link,

Merrill

JCitron
November 11th, 2011, 12:23 AM
Thanks John,

I checked them out and found that you must order the program Via email.
So I think I am going to have a go at creating the terrain manualy. It will most likely be time consuming, but fun none the less. Not to mention the experience I will gain from this.

However, I will be looking into TrainsDem for the future. Looks interesting.

Thanks for the link,

Merrill

You'll find the program extremely useful for a project such as yours. The cost is about $36.00 USD. I purchased it about a year ago and it's been worth the cost.

Roland Ziegler, the creator of the program is actually a member here. His login name is GeoPhil and he provides a lot of support for his program both here and on his own forums.

Have fun with your project.

John

Maddox61
November 11th, 2011, 12:26 AM
If you want to go this route, pun intended, try using Base map objects. They are essentially blank plains that your substitute a generic image with your own. They come in sets so you can cut your image up and paste them on multiple base maps.

To use them you place them in your route and sink them a smidge below the terrain and use mesh-view of the landscape. With TS2010 and TS12, you can lock them in place using the lock-layer feature.

With the base map in place and ready to go, you now simply place objects on to of them like tracks, buildings, etc. in their corresponding place.

In the past I've used base maps to create a couple of small routes. One of them is up on the DLS. Look for Scenic and Relaxed. Everything is there except one building, which you can replace with whatever you wish.

John

That was exactly what I had in mind John,

The maps I have created have the ellevation lines on them, I was going to set them below the grid, using wire frame and simply ellevate the terain in layers. Then I would need to lay the track manualy. More greate experiance.

But I never thought of doing this to locate and place buildings. What a greate idea.:)


Thanks

Merrill

Maddox61
November 11th, 2011, 12:26 AM
You'll find the program extremely useful for a project such as yours. The cost is about $36.00 USD. I purchased it about a year ago and it's been worth the cost.

Roland Ziegler, the creator of the program is actually a member here. His login name is GeoPhil and he provides a lot of support for his program both here and on his own forums.

Have fun with your project.

John


Thanks John

mjolnir
November 11th, 2011, 03:53 AM
Here are a couple of ideas about your proposal to do a Royal Gorge route.

First, do it in more than one section. If I were doing it, I'd use at least five sections: Pueblo to Cañon City; Cañon City to Salida; Salida to Gunnison, Gunnison to Olathe, and Olathe to Grand Junction. On a route this size, if you get tired of working on one section (or run into a problem you're not sure how to solve), you can move to another one.

I was going to start another thread for this next idea, but instead I'll take advantage of the opportunity to publish the idea in this one.

Second, while this is, at least as far as I know, a novel idea, I'd do a lot of the work in Blender. I have proven to myself that one can create a surface using Blender upon which one can install track, and which one can texture, and one has much greater control over the surface with Blender than one has with the topology tools in Trainz. Further one can combine many blender objects into the scene. If you're doing buildings, place them on the Blender baseboard; when you get the board completed, export it to trainz, and place it intact on the baseboard. This will have the added advantage of giving you capabilities that are missing in Trainz. For example, the topology tools in Trainz do not permit a vertical, or undercut terrain, but you could do that without too much problem in Blender, and since when imported, Trainz will see your board as a structure, it will not complain about such things as balancing rocks, vertical walls, and undercuts. Further, because you can subdivide and sculpt blender regions, one can get much finer geological detail with Blender than with TS surveyor tools.

It's not quite as hard as it sounds. If one exports the default blender cube, and imports the mesh into Trainz, the default cube is the size of the large original squares on the Auran baseboard. It's easy to start a baseboard: delete the top four vertices of the cube, and scale the resulting plane face by 360 units in the x and y directions, and one has a 720 x 720 surface.

[Note: Even though I've already got my flame proof suit on, I would fully expect that one could use 3ds Studio to model the route just as one could with Blender. I'd be surprised if one could not do it with GMAX, too, but I've very limited experience with that software, and it's not at all current. I'll leave it to others to confirm or deny the viability of using GMAX.]

By the way, it occurs to me that creating a baseboard in Blender also provides a solution to the request I made for route rotation capability in the Suggestion Boxcar forum. The Trainz baseboard, and any content referenced to that baseboard, can stay in it's native orientation, but one can rotate the surface, and any content fastened to the sufrace, that us created in 3d modeling software. There is another issue that this technique can address, which is an old topic in the Suggestion boxcar. One can create a portion of a board in modeling software, too, satisfying those who would like to have a triangular shaped board to fill in with. Also, for those interested in producing free-lance routes, the technique can be used to prototype the route, with more precision and control than one gets from the topography tools in TS.

Finally, a last suggestion for the Royal Gorge route: invite collaborators. if there is one other person interested in participating, you halve the work you have to do; if there are three other people, you cut the work you have to do in half again. And working with them would not only speed up the work, but provide an opportunity to work with like minded men and women. And you'd certainly have to have at least one field trip, too, providing a chance to get together with friends and enjoy a common endeavor.

ns

clam1952
November 11th, 2011, 07:57 AM
Thanks John,

I checked them out and found that you must order the program Via email.
So I think I am going to have a go at creating the terrain manualy. It will most likely be time consuming, but fun none the less. Not to mention the experience I will gain from this.

However, I will be looking into TrainsDem for the future. Looks interesting.

Thanks for the link,

Merrill

There is a freeware alternative, not quite as good as Transdem but it worked ok for me and that is Microdem + Hog.

Cayden
November 11th, 2011, 01:12 PM
[QUOTE=Maddox61;892713]OK. So I am off to try and create a layout. I am new and while learning I wanted to be creating at the same time, (ie, All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!)
I have a couple questions about the Baseboard.......

I have a soon to be released route that is more than 150 miles in length and more baseboards than I wish to count.

If it helps you get started, have a look at the tutorials in:

http://homepage.mac.com/doug56/MBC

They show you how to use baseboards.

Cayden

Maddox61
November 11th, 2011, 06:14 PM
There is a freeware alternative, not quite as good as Transdem but it worked ok for me and that is Microdem + Hog.

I went to download MicroDem ealier today and got a worning that the program could cause harm to my PC. Is this nowmal, and is the software safe?

Thanks

Maddox61
November 11th, 2011, 06:32 PM
Here are a couple of ideas about your proposal to do a Royal Gorge route.

First, do it in more than one section. If I were doing it, I'd use at least five sections: Pueblo to Cañon City; Cañon City to Salida; Salida to Gunnison, Gunnison to Olathe, and Olathe to Grand Junction. On a route this size, if you get tired of working on one section (or run into a problem you're not sure how to solve), you can move to another one.

I was going to start another thread for this next idea, but instead I'll take advantage of the opportunity to publish the idea in this one.

Second, while this is, at least as far as I know, a novel idea, I'd do a lot of the work in Blender. I have proven to myself that one can create a surface using Blender upon which one can install track, and which one can texture, and one has much greater control over the surface with Blender than one has with the topology tools in Trainz. Further one can combine many blender objects into the scene. If you're doing buildings, place them on the Blender baseboard; when you get the board completed, export it to trainz, and place it intact on the baseboard. This will have the added advantage of giving you capabilities that are missing in Trainz. For example, the topology tools in Trainz do not permit a vertical, or undercut terrain, but you could do that without too much problem in Blender, and since when imported, Trainz will see your board as a structure, it will not complain about such things as balancing rocks, vertical walls, and undercuts. Further, because you can subdivide and sculpt blender regions, one can get much finer geological detail with Blender than with TS surveyor tools.

It's not quite as hard as it sounds. If one exports the default blender cube, and imports the mesh into Trainz, the default cube is the size of the large original squares on the Auran baseboard. It's easy to start a baseboard: delete the top four vertices of the cube, and scale the resulting plane face by 360 units in the x and y directions, and one has a 720 x 720 surface.

[Note: Even though I've already got my flame proof suit on, I would fully expect that one could use 3ds Studio to model the route just as one could with Blender. I'd be surprised if one could not do it with GMAX, too, but I've very limited experience with that software, and it's not at all current. I'll leave it to others to confirm or deny the viability of using GMAX.]

By the way, it occurs to me that creating a baseboard in Blender also provides a solution to the request I made for route rotation capability in the Suggestion Boxcar forum. The Trainz baseboard, and any content referenced to that baseboard, can stay in it's native orientation, but one can rotate the surface, and any content fastened to the sufrace, that us created in 3d modeling software. There is another issue that this technique can address, which is an old topic in the Suggestion boxcar. One can create a portion of a board in modeling software, too, satisfying those who would like to have a triangular shaped board to fill in with. Also, for those interested in producing free-lance routes, the technique can be used to prototype the route, with more precision and control than one gets from the topography tools in TS.

Finally, a last suggestion for the Royal Gorge route: invite collaborators. if there is one other person interested in participating, you halve the work you have to do; if there are three other people, you cut the work you have to do in half again. And working with them would not only speed up the work, but provide an opportunity to work with like minded men and women. And you'd certainly have to have at least one field trip, too, providing a chance to get together with friends and enjoy a common endeavor.

ns

The route I am working on is Cannon City to Salida. This alone is around an 80 mile strech of track and will take around a year to complete.

That is if I work on it every day.:D

Maddox61
November 11th, 2011, 06:45 PM
Here are a couple of ideas about your proposal to do a Royal Gorge route.

First, do it in more than one section. If I were doing it, I'd use at least five sections: Pueblo to Cañon City; Cañon City to Salida; Salida to Gunnison, Gunnison to Olathe, and Olathe to Grand Junction. On a route this size, if you get tired of working on one section (or run into a problem you're not sure how to solve), you can move to another one.

I was going to start another thread for this next idea, but instead I'll take advantage of the opportunity to publish the idea in this one.

Second, while this is, at least as far as I know, a novel idea, I'd do a lot of the work in Blender. I have proven to myself that one can create a surface using Blender upon which one can install track, and which one can texture, and one has much greater control over the surface with Blender than one has with the topology tools in Trainz. Further one can combine many blender objects into the scene. If you're doing buildings, place them on the Blender baseboard; when you get the board completed, export it to trainz, and place it intact on the baseboard. This will have the added advantage of giving you capabilities that are missing in Trainz. For example, the topology tools in Trainz do not permit a vertical, or undercut terrain, but you could do that without too much problem in Blender, and since when imported, Trainz will see your board as a structure, it will not complain about such things as balancing rocks, vertical walls, and undercuts. Further, because you can subdivide and sculpt blender regions, one can get much finer geological detail with Blender than with TS surveyor tools.

It's not quite as hard as it sounds. If one exports the default blender cube, and imports the mesh into Trainz, the default cube is the size of the large original squares on the Auran baseboard. It's easy to start a baseboard: delete the top four vertices of the cube, and scale the resulting plane face by 360 units in the x and y directions, and one has a 720 x 720 surface.

[Note: Even though I've already got my flame proof suit on, I would fully expect that one could use 3ds Studio to model the route just as one could with Blender. I'd be surprised if one could not do it with GMAX, too, but I've very limited experience with that software, and it's not at all current. I'll leave it to others to confirm or deny the viability of using GMAX.]

By the way, it occurs to me that creating a baseboard in Blender also provides a solution to the request I made for route rotation capability in the Suggestion Boxcar forum. The Trainz baseboard, and any content referenced to that baseboard, can stay in it's native orientation, but one can rotate the surface, and any content fastened to the sufrace, that us created in 3d modeling software. There is another issue that this technique can address, which is an old topic in the Suggestion boxcar. One can create a portion of a board in modeling software, too, satisfying those who would like to have a triangular shaped board to fill in with. Also, for those interested in producing free-lance routes, the technique can be used to prototype the route, with more precision and control than one gets from the topography tools in TS.

Finally, a last suggestion for the Royal Gorge route: invite collaborators. if there is one other person interested in participating, you halve the work you have to do; if there are three other people, you cut the work you have to do in half again. And working with them would not only speed up the work, but provide an opportunity to work with like minded men and women. And you'd certainly have to have at least one field trip, too, providing a chance to get together with friends and enjoy a common endeavor.

ns


[quote=Maddox61;892713]OK. So I am off to try and create a layout. I am new and while learning I wanted to be creating at the same time, (ie, All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!)
I have a couple questions about the Baseboard.......

I have a soon to be released route that is more than 150 miles in length and more baseboards than I wish to count.

If it helps you get started, have a look at the tutorials in:

http://homepage.mac.com/doug56/MBC

They show you how to use baseboards.

Cayden

One of the most informational site I have seen.

Thank you very much.:D

Merrill

itareus
November 11th, 2011, 06:46 PM
....downfall is it has a buildt in Graphics card........Trouble is, I checked on installng a new card and bumping the ram up to 8gigs....

Your 4gb ram is fine. What is your PSU capacity? If its around, or better, than 350w you should be able to buy a reasonable lower power (and cheap) graphics card which will run Trainz OK - you won't get super computer performance but...

JCitron
November 11th, 2011, 09:38 PM
I went to download MicroDem ealier today and got a worning that the program could cause harm to my PC. Is this nowmal, and is the software safe?

Thanks

This is a false warning. Read the author's website for more information on that. In addition he made a newer patch to patch the installer so it doesn't get eaten by your antivirus product.

John

Maddox61
November 12th, 2011, 11:51 AM
This is a false warning. Read the author's website for more information on that. In addition he made a newer patch to patch the installer so it doesn't get eaten by your antivirus product.

John


Thanks John,

I will check into it today.:)

Maddox61
November 12th, 2011, 11:57 AM
Your 4gb ram is fine. What is your PSU capacity? If its around, or better, than 350w you should be able to buy a reasonable lower power (and cheap) graphics card which will run Trainz OK - you won't get super computer performance but...


That is one of the problems, 250w. Can't do much with that. And if I upgrade the PSU, I will most likely need to replace the motherboard and by the I will have spent enough money and time to build a new pc.

They should outlaw packaged systems. But I was the dubmy that bought it.:o

Thanks

clam1952
November 12th, 2011, 01:40 PM
Tutorila for Microdem and Hog here http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wewain/trainz/Surveyor/Baseboard/Topology/TerrainGeneration/Computer-generatedTerrain.htm (http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Ewewain/trainz/Surveyor/Baseboard/Topology/TerrainGeneration/Computer-generatedTerrain.htm) Server appears to be down at the moment though.

if you decide to give Microdem a go.
When using the tutorial which is slightly out of date, you do not need to do the height conversion calculation as the default is now in metres anyway and you do not need to save as bmp and convert to TGA as saving to TGA is now an option. Plus a couple of the dialogues are slightly different, easy enough to work out though.

Putting in a new power supply does not require a new motherboard, there are only two types of plug, the newer one has extra pins and all modern power supplies will fit both types anyway. Besides unless your PC is incredibly old it will have the socket with the extra pins.

mjolnir
November 12th, 2011, 02:01 PM
That is one of the problems, 250w. Can't do much with that. ...<snippage>...

They should outlaw packaged systems.

In reverse order, packaged systems are a good deal for a good many ordinary people. They're not so good, sometimes for Trainz users, but then were not ordinary people.

As to the power supply, I've had the power supplies go bad in both systems I bought a bit more than two years ago, and I replaced them myself. in both cases, I replaced the power supply originally built into the computer with a larger one; both were originally 300 W power supplies, and I replaced them with 460 W power supplies. I suspect that the power supplies are pretty closely matched to the hardware you purchased, and that the power supply may be running at high enough capacity that it is the element that will fail first. If it were me, I'd begin setting aside money for replacement of the supply. The big thing to watch, is to get a power supply that matches the size of the one you took out. I am particulalry fond of MicroCenter, and I know there's one in the Bay area, but you may not be particularly close to it.

ns

itareus
November 12th, 2011, 05:19 PM
...They should outlaw packaged systems. But I was the dubmy that bought it.:o ...

What should they outlaw then :p !

As the previous 2 posters have indicated it would be possible to upgrade your PSU but I would strongly advise you to cut your losses and save up for a decent new PC - which will, of course, be out of date on the day you take delivery!

Cheers

bushymo
November 12th, 2011, 06:18 PM
It puzzles me really, that Auran didn't make one baseboard to be 1Km even, meaning that if you laid 5 baseboards in a row, or say 10, 20, 50, you would have the even length of 5, 10, 20, 50 etc Km in the metric measure, making it a lot easier for those in countries where Metric is the go...

Maybe if you were in a country where imperial was the go, each baseboard should be the even mile, and this should have been made to sync in with where you go to alter your environment or when you go to make a new layout, and it asks you whether you want real scale, etc, and you choose to use metric or imperial.

I have to wonder why the even size of the baseboard was not synced in with you choice of using metric or imperial, instead of just making a default 720X720, which to most of us is totally ridiculous... and causes much confusion...

Just say for instance that if you chose 'real scale' and you were working in miles, you should get a baseboard to equal one mile even, not 1/2 or 1/3 of a mile or whatever, and if you chose metric, you would get a baseboard the even mile.

Yes I have to agree that the flaw is in the sim, when TRS was first designed...

I know how frustrating it can be, and all the rulers you can get in TRS would not fix the real problem... and what good is a 720X720 mtr baseboard?.. regardless of whose maths is out or correct...

Wouldn't it have been much easier for us if we knew that regardless of whether we were working in metric or imperial, one baseboard was made equal to the even Km or the Even Mile, and that could have been done in that bit where in surveyor you go and decide on your scale and measure language (metric or imperial) when you click on 'create new'.

It would have eliminated all this confusion...Could Auran/N3V do that in future versions of TRS?...Just an idea... but worth thinking about:)

On the topic of layouts, I don't make layouts any bigger than my computer isi capable of making without crashing, then if I poist one to the DLS, I can feel a lot more confident that others will be able to run my layout without too much stress on their computers, take that masive Avery Drexel... and another couple of huge layouts in TRS 10... Avery Drexel as good as it is, just crashes my reasonably good Laptop... every time I use it... Mojave is borderline....

I prefer to stick to say 20 basebards of size max, or maybe not too many more... the old Wadalbavale to Kurrah Bay was nearly boarderline too in terms of runability unless you had a gaming machine capable of running huge layouts....I also try to mimimise the amount of buildings etc on them and make them as good as I can without making them boring and bland and not very scenic or over done.

itareus
November 12th, 2011, 06:33 PM
...Yes I have to agree that the flaw is in the sim, when TRS was first designed..

I am sure the original designers had a very good reason for, what may appear to you to be, an odd baseboard size. As for changing it - well I suppose we could all throw away the last few months/years of work on routes and start again - because that is what changing the size would probably mean !

mjolnir
November 12th, 2011, 07:28 PM
The good reason the baseboard designers had for a 270 m limit, is likely that at the time the game engine was developed, memory for machines was measured in Megabytes, not Gigabytes, and in similarly, speed of machines was considerably slower, too.

I assume that each intersection in the grid is an address to a location in a data structure in which the name of any objects, including structures, track, geological textures, cameras, are recorded. Further, Trainz is not a static render, but a dynamic one; objects have to be rendered so as to appear to move in relation to each other, and a lot of points need to be rendered in each cycle. Also, monitor sizes have increased dramatically. When Trainz first appeared, sVGA monitors had 800 x 600 resoution. Rendering for a 1600 x 900 resoution monitor requires three times the processing power to achieve an image in the same speed as rendering for the sVGA.

I expect that there have been improvements to the game engine that are not immediately obvious, and I would expect that at some point the game engine will be redone to incorporate changes in hardware and software technology. But I still think it's a heck of a bargain given the cost of the software, and what one can achieve with it.

ns

mezzoprezzo
November 12th, 2011, 07:34 PM
What’s the advantage in having a different baseboard size?

I see no advantage in having any particular size, provided it is consistent and square.

As soon as an additional baseboard is added you pretty soon lose sight of the join, other than the height differential prior to terrain forming and the occasional faint shady texture line.

If the argument is to assist in laying track to specific mileages, then this would only work with railways laid to perfect E-W or N-S alignment, and then only if track is laid before the next baseboard is extended. Otherwise, you can’t see the join!

Once you start laying track at an angle you would lose any advantage. The diagonal measurement of the 720m square baseboard is 1018.2337m. A one kilometre square baseboard would give you a diagonal of 1414.2135m. A one mile square baseboard would give you a diagonal of 2489.0158 yards (1.4142135 miles). You would therefore still need to use rulers to pinpoint your distances for track laying the moment you divert from any of the parallel gridlines.

There may be some small advantage in applying a basemap with one mile, (or one kilometre), reference lines on the map image. However, once the learning curve for successfully achieving basemaps has been climbed, applying any scale map over any baseboard size in no real problem.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but what would be the plus points in changing from the existing?

Cheers
Casper

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 03:58 PM
To answer a couple questions, My PC is brand new. I baught it less than 2 months ago. My fault, I baught a HP p6823 62bit win7 with 4gig ram.

I was told that since I had a 250 power supply, that it may have an effect on the mother board if I try to replace it with a 400w.

I would like to upgrade to 8gigs of ram with a nice upper end GeForce or Radeon video card. But as before, I don't have close to the power I need. And if I replace the ram, videocard, power supply, I would have to replace the motherboard. The only thing left is the tower cabinet, less the dvd drives.

Not knowing much about PCs in gen. I had baught this PC soley to use for Trainz. And when I contacted HP, I gave them the system requirements and explained what I was going to be doing and this was there referral.

This is why I feel having a PC made for such as creating assets for Trainz is the best bet.

Thanks fo the input.

Merrill

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 04:36 PM
Ok, So I have been all over looking for a solution for creating terrain.

I have tried a couple of different ways. Not yet have tried the Microdem.
Still a bit leary of that program. I have seen many people using it and noted that most of the info is for winXP not win7.

So, one way I have triedis to actualy create a 1km x 1km plain in Blender, Texture it using an image of teh terrian and use this to create an asset in Trainz.

When I did this, it worked pretty good, with the exception that after I got 10 plains loaded, the LOD would start effecting the map and as I tried to adjust there position, they would disappear.

The other way was to create one large map, 8km x 8km and load it in the same way with less trouble than trying to position all the smaller maps. Only problem here was, after adjusting the view, I could only get so far across the plain when the entire image would disappear.

Here is a pic of one of the many, many , many maps I have for this.
this map is exactly 1km square.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/375616_128295907278797_100715553370166_149707_5513 25599_n.jpg

clam1952
November 13th, 2011, 04:48 PM
Ok, So I have been all over looking for a solution for creating terrain.

I have tried a couple of different ways. Not yet have tried the Microdem.
Still a bit leary of that program. I have seen many people using it and noted that most of the info is for winXP not win7.

So, one way I have triedis to actualy create a 1km x 1km plain in Blender, Texture it using an image of teh terrian and use this to create an asset in Trainz.

When I did this, it worked pretty good, with the exception that after I got 10 plains loaded, the LOD would start effecting the map and as I tried to adjust there position, they would disappear.

The other way was to create one large map, 8km x 8km and load it in the same way with less trouble than trying to position all the smaller maps. Only problem here was, after adjusting the view, I could only get so far across the plain when the entire image would disappear.

Here is a pic of one of the many, many , many maps I have for this.
this map is exactly 1km square.



Microdem works perfectly well in Win7 without any fiddling. Just don't stick in Program Files.

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 05:02 PM
So, any ideas on getting about 300 of these pics loaded.

The route I am working on will not require this much area. A large number of these maps will only use like the edge or corner of the image. My plans are to keep the route itself limited to 1 Baseboard wide, or 720km.

I did find that I was a bit off on the miles. The distance from Cannon City, Colorado to Salida, Colorado is 154.92 miles or 249.3km. This is running out Highway 50. The track runs along the north bank of the Arkansas River, while Highway 50 runs down the south bank. This road pretty much runs the entire distance of the train route. So milage is very close.

The only thing that is going to make this doable is that most of the layout is nothing more than trees and rocks, with a very fiew buildings. There are a couple quarries along the way but nothing major.

If I could get the map loaded I could sculpt the terrain manualy with no problem.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Merrill:)

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 05:10 PM
Microdem works perfectly well in Win7 without any fiddling. Just don't stick in Program Files.

Thanks Malc,

I guess I will try this today.

For the record, I use no virus protection at all on this PC, as most slow my PC down. I simply don't load or open what I don't know about. I have another PC that I use for the internet. This one I only use for Trainz and modeling. In a sence, It is like an expensive Playstation.

The warnings are coming from windows itself.

Thanks again,

Merrill

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Ok,

So I have loaded Microdem but have a big question.

This program is going to require a large amount of time in learning. SO, when I get done, if I am understanding this right, using MicroDem, I will be creating a 3D map and loading this into trainz and then all I need to do from there is add the texture to the terrain. Or, does MicroDem simply create an elevation map, sort of like the one I listed earlier, and used to adjust the ellevation using the tools in the surveyor.

If it will create the terrian for me, it will be worth learning. If not, It would take less time to create the terain manualy than to take the time to learn such an indepth program.

Thanks

Merrill

clam1952
November 13th, 2011, 07:38 PM
Ok,

So I have loaded Microdem but have a big question.

This program is going to require a large amount of time in learning. SO, when I get done, if I am understanding this right, using MicroDem, I will be creating a 3D map and loading this into trainz and then all I need to do from there is add the texture to the terrain. Or, does MicroDem simply create an elevation map, sort of like the one I listed earlier, and used to adjust the ellevation using the tools in the surveyor.

If it will create the terrian for me, it will be worth learning. If not, It would take less time to create the terain manualy than to take the time to learn such an indepth program.

Thanks

Merrill

It creates the terrain for you, much the same as Transdem also does, basically it creates the mapfile.gnd file

A screenshot of the route I'm building using Microdem and Hog as an example of what you can do using Microdem or for that matter Transdem

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/595/clam1952201109180052.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/clam1952201109180052.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 08:22 PM
It creates the terrain for you, much the same as Transdem also does, basically it creates the mapfile.gnd file

A screenshot of the route I'm building using Microdem and Hog as an example of what you can do using Microdem or for that matter Transdem

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/595/clam1952201109180052.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/clam1952201109180052.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Thanks for the info,

I guess it's back to school for me. Or since I'm new to Trainz, should I say it's time to add a class.

I also hear a lot about Hog, but I guess you know what I get when I type it into the search engines.;)

So, what is hog.:o


Thanks,

Merrill

clam1952
November 13th, 2011, 08:47 PM
HOG, basically converts the terrain made in Transdem to the mapfile.gnd file required by Trainz, link to the download which is very small is in the tutorial I posted a link to.

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 08:59 PM
HOG, basically converts the terrain made in Transdem to the mapfile.gnd file required by Trainz, link to the download which is very small is in the tutorial I posted a link to.


Hey Malc,

Sorry to keep being a bother. I found that site earlier, but that file was cerated in 2002. Will this still work on ts2009?

Thanks again,

Merrill

clam1952
November 13th, 2011, 09:10 PM
Hey Malc,

Sorry to keep being a bother. I found that site earlier, but that file was cerated in 2002. Will this still work on ts2009?

Thanks again,

Merrill

Yes I've used it with 2009 2010 and TS12 works in everything from XP to Win7 64 bit. Used it this year with Microdem to add a bit more on my route.

Maddox61
November 13th, 2011, 09:23 PM
Yes I've used it with 2009 2010 and TS12 works in everything from XP to Win7 64 bit. Used it this year with Microdem to add a bit more on my route.

Thanks so much Malc,

I am on that site now. My problem is, I don't read the whole page. So, I am working on the tutrial right now. Also found all the links at the bottom of the page. Duh:o This should teach me not to rush through things.

Time to get back to the books,

I will touch base here as I learn to make notes. Who knows, maybe there is more than one person in the world as brainless as I am.:hehe:


Thanks again,


Merrill

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 12:39 AM
Wow, real different type of experience, MicroDem and Hog.

A few problems in the tutorial though.

IN the file C:\MapDat there is no folder by the name "usgrdata", there is a folder named "VRML" in it's place witch is Virtual Reality Modeling Language I believe.
But the file has no sub-folders as mentioned in the tutorial.

Is a file missing, or do we now put all the DEM data into this one folder, or in the actual DEM folder?


Also, had some trouble with the NY file they used in the tutorial. They mentioned not unzipping the file and to place it in the Tiger. file.

Then it said to select New DEM and open that file. Well, That didn't work.
MicroDem spit it out saying that the file was not a DEM file.

So I Downloaded a reg DEM file.



I noticed in the Tutorial, they opened the Tiger file to get the file needed for the Dem and showed a .txt and I believe it was a .tar.gz file.

The only place I could find a file like that was in the actual files in the GIS Data Depot under DEM-24K files.



That tutorial realy needs to be updated. Nothing in the tutorial is the same as in the MicroDem. This don't make things too easy.:eek:

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 07:51 AM
Never bothered with any of that I just stick all DEM related stuff in the DEM folder once you have located one, it remembers the path and goes straight to that folder for opening importing or saving.

Does say it's not important where it goes in the tutorial, I guess no one was using that folder which is why it's not there any longer?

Tiger data I'm afraid I skipped that as it's of now use in the UK as there isn't any, I used base maps created from Google earth for the important areas and just measured or used the lat long marker which you can get from the DLS for the rest. Helps having two PC's and monitors when doing that though!

I think you have to open a new dem before opening the Tiger data though,
as in load the DEM and then open tiger data where you get a list of all the areas which you select from the datbase, obviously only ones you have downloaded will actually be there.

Incidentally you can export the dem as a Google Earth overlay which I found useful.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 10:56 AM
Never bothered with any of that I just stick all DEM related stuff in the DEM folder once you have located one, it remembers the path and goes straight to that folder for opening importing or saving.

Does say it's not important where it goes in the tutorial, I guess no one was using that folder which is why it's not there any longer?

Tiger data I'm afraid I skipped that as it's of now use in the UK as there isn't any, I used base maps created from Google earth for the important areas and just measured or used the lat long marker which you can get from the DLS for the rest. Helps having two PC's and monitors when doing that though!

I think you have to open a new dem before opening the Tiger data though,
as in load the DEM and then open tiger data where you get a list of all the areas which you select from the datbase, obviously only ones you have downloaded will actually be there.

Incidentally you can export the dem as a Google Earth overlay which I found useful.

I figured as much. The tutorial did seem very old. And most programs designed back then have been updated many time over since.

I am starting to figure out the just of how things work now. Correct me if I am wrong, but the MicroDem basicly creates the color map, sort of like a bump map and Hog interprets the colors as ellevations and creates the actual Dem Model using the rgb as an ellevation scale. Then this is added to the Trainz layout folder you created for the new route. And if I am not mistaken, Hog sort of works using the same basics as the displacement tool in the surveyor using the grey sclale.

I am going to start from the beggining again today and do the entire tutorial over again. But this time, I will be going from start to finish and load the map.



I did find that most of the DEMs in Data depot was listed under "State, County, then City", telling me that the DEMs are based on the cities. I hope they cover the entire county not just what is inside the city limits, since in the U.S, many of our counties have areas outside the city limits that are simply rural areas.

Well, time to hit the books.

Thanks for all your help Malc,

Merrill

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 11:15 AM
Yes basically it does the same as using a height map within surveyor.

The whole planet is covered by dems, there is an addon for Google earth where you can pick the dems for the area you are looking at, not sure if it still works with the latest GE update though as its stopped working here.
SRTM4.1 in theory you can link straight to the download for the DEM

There was also an oline map on one of the DEM related sites where you could select the right area to download, can't find it at the moment though.

Don't forget the fact that there is no need to do height conversions as it's in Metres now, otherwise you get a flat terrain

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 01:27 PM
Yes basically it does the same as using a height map within surveyor.

The whole planet is covered by dems, there is an addon for Google earth where you can pick the dems for the area you are looking at, not sure if it still works with the latest GE update though as its stopped working here.
SRTM4.1 in theory you can link straight to the download for the DEM

There was also an oline map on one of the DEM related sites where you could select the right area to download, can't find it at the moment though.

Don't forget the fact that there is no need to do height conversions as it's in Metres now, otherwise you get a flat terrain

I will check on the Dems in Google, but I have never the less, ran into another little problem.

As I was going back over the download for the MicroDem, I had noticed that there is an update by selecting "File then close and update".


I did this and after completing the update, when I open MicroDem I get these messages:

MicroDem requires spcs_tm_83_v2.dbf; Download now?
MicroDem requires spcs_lcc_83_v2.dbf; Download now?
MicroDem requires LAND_COVER_3.dbf; Download now?
MicroDem requires 7z.exe; Download Now?
MicroDem requires 7zdll; Download now?

After selecting confirm on each download, I shut down MicroDem and got this message:

An unexpected memory leak has occured. The unexpected small block
leaks are:
13-20 bytes: UnicodeString x 9
21-28 bytes: UnicodeString x 13
29-36 bytes: unicodeString x 13, Unicode x 8
69-76 bytes: TStringList x 8


This was not happening prior to the update.
And when I do select confirm on the downloads, it simply flashes to the next one so fast that I don't believe these files are actualy downloading.

Also keeping in mind, I have no anti-virus on this PC that can prevent the files from loading.

Is this an issue, or should I simply not install the update?




Thanks.


Merrill

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 02:10 PM
Other than maybe 7z which I suspect is 7zip? although I have no sign of it in my Microdem install here, I don't think any of those are any use for Trainz purposes.

I've never updated just downloaded the latest download and replaced the previous as this program is constantly in Beta, I stick to what's on the download site, you may have hit a bad update.

I suspect the dbf files are tiny so would download quickly.

Just checked the Microdem forum, it is 7zip and it is missing he's put up links to download the missing files however I'd go back to the one you downloaded until the author puts up a new version.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 03:11 PM
Other than maybe 7z which I suspect is 7zip? although I have no sign of it in my Microdem install here, I don't think any of those are any use for Trainz purposes.

I've never updated just downloaded the latest download and replaced the previous as this program is constantly in Beta, I stick to what's on the download site, you may have hit a bad update.

I suspect the dbf files are tiny so would download quickly.

Just checked the Microdem forum, it is 7zip and it is missing he's put up links to download the missing files however I'd go back to the one you downloaded until the author puts up a new version.

I figure as much. I reloaded the program and did not add the updates and it is working fine. I got the DEMs loading from any area I want, figured out how to merge the DEMs and also found that the Tiger file is the roads and rail images and the DEM for that area must be loaded first, then you can overlay the Tiger files.

SO, now on to getting the thing into Hog and create the model.


More to come, I'm sure.;)


Thanks again,

Merrill

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 03:52 PM
One last problem I am having in MicroDem. The information on the map legend such as distance and elevation is still showing up after I save the image. Is there a way to get rid of this. I have searched every place I can with no luck. Also when I recalculate the map, so that 1m = one pixel, I am taking the original 21.15m pixel size, deviding by 10 adding this to the zoomin and I am getting like 9.98m instead if 10.0m. Is this normal? I know that .02m is not much, but if you calculate this over a 150km stretch of track, it could lead up to a lot.

Thanks

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 04:15 PM
I found it. It was under the "Modify/Map Marginalia" settings.

So, I'm on my way to Hog, finaly. :D

Hopefully, Hog will be easier to figure out.:o

Thanks,

Merrill

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 04:32 PM
One last problem I am having in MicroDem. The information on the map legend such as distance and elevation is still showing up after I save the image. Is there a way to get rid of this. I have searched every place I can with no luck. Also when I recalculate the map, so that 1m = one pixel, I am taking the original 21.15m pixel size, deviding by 10 adding this to the zoomin and I am getting like 9.98m instead if 10.0m. Is this normal? I know that .02m is not much, but if you calculate this over a 150km stretch of track, it could lead up to a lot.

Thanks

I think the aim is to get it as close to 10 as possible, the first attempt I made came to dead on ten, every attempt since has been around 9.98 or 9.99. I did think of adding a bit to the pixel size when doing the calculation only I decided I wouldn't worry about it.

The map legend, took me some time to work that out. Right click on the image in Microdem then select ledgends / marginalia and untick the items in there, that gets rid of it.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 05:56 PM
I think the aim is to get it as close to 10 as possible, the first attempt I made came to dead on ten, every attempt since has been around 9.98 or 9.99. I did think of adding a bit to the pixel size when doing the calculation only I decided I wouldn't worry about it.

The map legend, took me some time to work that out. Right click on the image in Microdem then select ledgends / marginalia and untick the items in there, that gets rid of it.


Yes, I figured that one out by simply opening each and every tab until I found it. Takes time but good experience though.


I have now got all the files created in Hog, including the file I named "testlayout.gnd" Only to run into my last and final problem.

Can't get it into Trainz.:(

I opened the surveyor and created a new layout named "TestLayout" and saved this. Then, it said to open the file:
C:/Program Files/Auran/TRS2004/World/Custom/maps/
But in my case should have been:
C:/Program Files/Auran/TRS2009/World/Custom/maps/
Then I was to replace the .gnd file with the one I created in Hog..

There is no folder named "Map" in any of the Auran files.

I even tried to go into the CM and edit the layout there. But when I replace the .gnd file with the new TestLayout.gnd and opened in surveyor, I got an error stating that the map was missing.

Any ideas?:'( :D

Thanks,
Merrill

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 06:04 PM
Ahh yes, format has changed since the tutorial.

Go to surveyor start a new 1 board route, save it.

In content manager open the new route for edit.

Replace the mapfile.gnd file with the one made in Hog

Commit.

Launch trainz and see if it worked.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 06:15 PM
Ahh yes, format has changed since the tutorial.

Go to surveyor start a new 1 board route, save it.

In content manager open the new route for edit.

Replace the mapfile.gnd file with the one made in Hog

Commit.

Launch trainz and see if it worked.

I did this and when I opened the new route back up in the surveyor, I got a blank screen and a message that the file was missing the map.

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 06:17 PM
just to check you have called it mapfile.gnd and not something else? failing that it's back track and check what got missed.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 06:25 PM
just to check you have called it mapfile.gnd and not something else? failing that it's back track and check what got missed.

According to the tutorial, I was saposed to name it while creating it in Hog and hten name my route the same. So, the file I created using Hog was "TestLayout" and it created the .gnd file. Then I created the new layout in surveyor and named this route "TestLayout". Then, using the CM, I opened the layout and replaced the .gnd file with the "TestLayout.gnd" and commited.

This is when I got the message about the missing map.

Was I supposed to name it mapfile.gnd?

Thanks Malc

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 06:27 PM
For the record.

I appreciate all the help.

If it was not for you, I would still be on "What is a DEM?":)

Thank you very much.

Merrill

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 06:34 PM
Yes from 2009 onwards I think it is, the map has to be called mapfile.gnd, nothing else works.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 06:40 PM
I Got It!!:D :D :D

You was right. The minute I renamed the TestLayout.gnd to "mapfile.gnd" it worked like a charm.

I only need to do a bit of tweeking. It seems that the terrain has a ridge along the edge of each table that is about 10m high. But now that I got the map loaded, I will delete it and do the entire thing over, now that I have a basic idea of how this works. I know I probably overlooked something in the border size on the map, or in one of the Hog settings that will correct this.

But knowing me, I will do this over and over untill I can do it in my sleep before I continue on to the next step in creating my layout.


Thanks again for everything.:D

Merrill

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 06:54 PM
Right the ridges, was hoping that wasn't going to happen however there is a way of avoiding that or reducing it so it barely shows.

Create new blank route and save.
Create second new blank route save and add your mapfile.gnd in CM as before, has to be a new one as once the route is opened this won't work.
In surveyor open the blank board.
In the menu click on Merge route.
Select your new route with the DEM
use the arrows to move things around and make sure the blank board is to one side of your route but not touching, then save.
Next time you open the ridges should be barely noticable and you can delete that extra board.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 06:54 PM
Hey Malc,

I can't tell but in the GeoCommunity" what is the difference between the "30m .gz" and the "10m .gz"?

Thanks

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 07:03 PM
Right the ridges, was hoping that wasn't going to happen however there is a way of avoiding that or reducing it so it barely shows.

Create new blank route and save.
Create second new blank route save and add your mapfile.gnd in CM as before, has to be a new one as once the route is opened this won't work.
In surveyor open the blank board.
In the menu click on Merge route.
Select your new route with the DEM
use the arrows to move things around and make sure the blank board is to one side of your route but not touching, then save.
Next time you open the ridges should be barely noticable and you can delete that extra board.

Don't know if that is going to work.

The new layout has about 12 boards and the seems are all over the place.
And that is only the end of the route. The entire route is 53 miles long.

This was also only using one DEM file from Geo.

I don't know if there is a way to create only one board at a time. Unless I was to crop the maps in Gimp while creating the .tga files.

Thanks

Merrill

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 07:17 PM
Yah, I need to do something. I think I missed the part about leaving one board as a buffer from the tracks. Miss-counted, on my little test layout I have 64 boards. :hehe:

Oh well, the more I do this the better at it I will get.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 07:33 PM
Hey Malc,

I can't tell but in the GeoCommunity" what is the difference between the "30m .gz" and the "10m .gz"?

Thanks

I found the answer for this one. In the DEM file, the 10m and 30m are the distance between one elevation line and the next. In other word, sort of like the resolution of the DEM.

Learning:)

Thanks,
Merrill

clam1952
November 14th, 2011, 07:43 PM
There is a way you can cheat if you had an old version of Trainz such as 2006 and that's create the board in that and then import it to 2009, the ridges are a bug that appeared part way through 2009 after one of the service packs if I remember correctly and are still there in TS12.

Maddox61
November 14th, 2011, 08:29 PM
There is a way you can cheat if you had an old version of Trainz such as 2006 and that's create the board in that and then import it to 2009, the ridges are a bug that appeared part way through 2009 after one of the service packs if I remember correctly and are still there in TS12.

I would need to locate a ts2006 build. Probably one out there someplace.

While I was doing the tutorial, I am sure I remember something
about adjusting the map and board overlap ar such. It would make sence that if the DEM or Hog is allowing for a Trainz board overlap to get the entire DEM listed in it that it would have an area that has no elevation. Thus, would leave those seems like that.

I am sure that if you adjust for no overlap, it may correct the problem.

I'm working on downloading DEMs for now. Going to see how many can be merged together at one go. Or I am going to have to create one DEM using two and then take those and join to create another DEM and so on. :)

Lot of work, but much, much easier than creating the terrain for 54 miles of track by hand.:confused: What a nightmare that was going to be.

I will be searching along the way for an adjustment for the board or map in either Hog or MicroDem.

Will let you know if I find the answer. I will probably be on here for atleast another 4-5 hours.


Thanks,


Merrill

Dermmy
November 15th, 2011, 05:12 AM
Don't know if that is going to work.

The new layout has about 12 boards and the seems are all over the place.
And that is only the end of the route. The entire route is 53 miles long.

This was also only using one DEM file from Geo.

I don't know if there is a way to create only one board at a time. Unless I was to crop the maps in Gimp while creating the .tga files.

Thanks

Merrill

You missed the point here, you don't create the HOG route one board at a time you create the HOG map as normal, get it into Trainz but DO NOT open the map. Next create a new single board route. Open the single board route and merge the DEM route to it. Save. Close. Open the saved route and no 'seams'. The seams are a bug in TS09 and up, but the merge trick fixes it...

Andy

Dermmy
November 15th, 2011, 05:29 AM
While I was doing the tutorial, I am sure I remember something about adjusting the map and board overlap ar such. It would make sence that if the DEM or Hog is allowing for a Trainz board overlap to get the entire DEM listed in it that it would have an area that has no elevation. Thus, would leave those seems like that.

I am sure that if you adjust for no overlap, it may correct the problem.

I never trim the images to suit trainz board size, I just leave plenty overlap and delete edge boards which are not complete. I reckon it's quicker and easier that way...

Not sure about your reference to 'no elevation' areas but these are common on the edges of HOG routes. The Tiger data is packaged for a full county, DEM Quads are a fraction of that size. HOG filters the route based on TIGER data, not the DEM size so you get 'flat' boards everywhere the TIGER overlaps the DEM. Delete them :)





I'm working on downloading DEMs for now. Going to see how many can be merged together at one go. Or I am going to have to create one DEM using two and then take those and join to create another DEM and so on. :)

MicroDEM is a memory hog. You will find there is a limit to the number of quads you can merge before you crash out. Strangely tho it will happily merge merges. Confused? Say you can merge 10 quads successfully but it crashes out at 12. Merge 10. Merge another 10. You will now be able to merge the two 10-quad DEMs to make a 20 Quad DEM. 54 miles end-to-end should be merge-able in MicroDem, but you will find on larger routes that eventually MicroDem's limit is reached and you have to start creating multiple Trainz routes and merging in Trainz.

Andy...

Maddox61
November 15th, 2011, 04:11 PM
You missed the point here, you don't create the HOG route one board at a time you create the HOG map as normal, get it into Trainz but DO NOT open the map. Next create a new single board route. Open the single board route and merge the DEM route to it. Save. Close. Open the saved route and no 'seams'. The seams are a bug in TS09 and up, but the merge trick fixes it...

Andy

Not sure I undertand what you are talking about. If I do not create a single board route in the surveyor, how or what would I do to add my Hog map to Trainz without adding it to an existing route.

I tried to find the location of the map file in my system, as in the tutoria,l to load the maps but that does not seem to exist.

Ok, Just found out how to merge the routes. The only thing I need to figure out now is how to get the Hog map into Trainz, as you mentioned, in order to merge the two routs.


I am also working on Merging the DEMs. I have successfully merged 20 DEMs with no trouble as of yet. I have yet to try and get it into Trainz. I want to first make sure I have all my ducks in a row with creating and loading the Hog maps first.



I did figure out that the measurements in MicroDem are just a bit off. When adjusting the screen pixel size to 10.0m. I found that when you select the "Zoom in Factor", no matter what size you start with, if you subtract .005 it willl always come to 10.00m. IE. 41.24 = 1.119
Don't know if this makes much difference. But it was bugging me bad.:)


Thanks for your help Andy. Being new, I need all the help I can get. As I mention in an ealier post, had it not been for Malc, I would still be trying to manualy create the layout.


Thanks everyone


Merrill

Dermmy
November 15th, 2011, 04:46 PM
OK - back to the start :)

You have produced a .gnd file from HOG. One difference from the tute is that you MUST name the gnd file mapfile.gnd irrespective of the route name, the gnd file is ALWAYS mapfile.gnd

Start Trainz Surveyor, create a new route, select 'Save AS' from the main menu, give it a name and save.

Quit out of Trainz.

Open Content Manager, locate the route you just made (either 'My Content' or 'Today' tabs make it easy to find). Open the route for edit (Ctrl+Shift+E). Drag the gnd file you created from HOG into the edit window. You will be prompted about an over-write (if not your gnd file in not correctly named), allow the overwrite. Close the edit window and commit the route (Ctrl+M).

The route is now in Trainz but if you open it you will have ridges and/or hollows along board edges. This is not really a Trainz bug, it has to do with the way HOG referenced the board edges, but it's gotta be fixed. So don't open the route!

Back in Surveyor create another new route. Call it 'Temp' (or whatever) and save. Now load the new route 'Temp' and from the main menu choose 'Merge Routes' and merge the newly-created one-board route (Temp) with the route that contains the HOG gnd file and save.

NOW you can open the merged route and it will not have the ridge-and-hollow thing...

Andy

Maddox61
November 15th, 2011, 05:56 PM
OK - back to the start :)

You have produced a .gnd file from HOG. One difference from the tute is that you MUST name the gnd file mapfile.gnd irrespective of the route name, the gnd file is ALWAYS mapfile.gnd

Start Trainz Surveyor, create a new route, select 'Save AS' from the main menu, give it a name and save.

Quit out of Trainz.

Open Content Manager, locate the route you just made (either 'My Content' or 'Today' tabs make it easy to find). Open the route for edit (Ctrl+Shift+E). Drag the gnd file you created from HOG into the edit window. You will be prompted about an over-write (if not your gnd file in not correctly named), allow the overwrite. Close the edit window and commit the route (Ctrl+M).

The route is now in Trainz but if you open it you will have ridges and/or hollows along board edges. This is not really a Trainz bug, it has to do with the way HOG referenced the board edges, but it's gotta be fixed. So don't open the route!

Back in Surveyor create another new route. Call it 'Temp' (or whatever) and save. Now load the new route 'Temp' and from the main menu choose 'Merge Routes' and merge the newly-created one-board route (Temp) with the route that contains the HOG gnd file and save.

NOW you can open the merged route and it will not have the ridge-and-hollow thing...

Andy

Thanks Andy,

I was probably doing this as you were typing.
I figured I needed to add it to an existing route. so I did exactly as you had explained here. The only place I had trouble was durring the merge. I did not undertand that the new map overlaid the old in the mini map window:o

So I had trouble getting tthe green tick to show up.

Got it now. It did remove the uneven terrian for the most part. Still finding a few flaws, but nothing that we can't live with.

Now, it's back to creating DEMs for me. Now that I know how to merge these tables, I should have the terrian done in about a week or so.


Thanks you very much for your help. :D

Merrill

Maddox61
November 15th, 2011, 08:38 PM
WOW,

After all the help everyone has given me to learn to create and load DEMs into Trainz, the main part of the route has been removed from the Gis Depot, the DEM for the Royal Gorge.

This is the beginning of the route, just outside Cannon City. The main part the the SF and D&RG was fighting over. No to mention, the most narrow passage for a train in the US.

If anyone knows of a site that I can get the DEM for the Royal Gorge, that will work in MicroDem, it would be appreciated.

I have elevation charts for the area, I just don't know how I would convert an .png into a DEM.


Looks like I may still be doing half this route by hand. :(

And so life goes on.;)


Thanks,

Merrill

Robert65d
November 15th, 2011, 09:24 PM
On the subject of DEM files - can anybody tell me if DEMs are available for Soth Australia, namely the Barossa Valley Region. I would like to know before purchasing TransDEM.

Thanks in advance
Bob

clam1952
November 15th, 2011, 09:31 PM
Should be able to get it from an alternative source I would think such as http://www.geocomm.com/ need to register, it's where I got my data from.

Edit this is a reply to Maddox61.

Maddox61
November 15th, 2011, 09:37 PM
Should be able to get it from an alternative source I would think such as http://www.geocomm.com/ need to register, it's where I got my data from.


Yah, I'll check em out Malc.

I hope so. I don't mind doing this by hand since I am retired and have nothing but time. But it sure would be nice.

There is only the one section, or one DEM missing. The bad thing is it is the main one. :D

Thanks

clam1952
November 15th, 2011, 09:48 PM
Should have been in bed a couple of hours ago! likewise I'm retired took an early retirement package a year ago, may look for something part time If I get too bored! Can't see that with my Hobbies though, Trainz and Ham radio.

Checked just out Colorado on that link seems, as far as I can tell from being in the UK, to be all there.

Maddox61
November 15th, 2011, 09:55 PM
On the subject of DEM files - can anybody tell me if DEMs are available for Soth Australia, namely the Barossa Valley Region. I would like to know before purchasing TransDEM.

Thanks in advance
Bob

You can give Mapmart a shot. I ain't to sure what programs they work with since I am new to this and also working on a US route. But they do pretty much cover the globe.

Matter of fact, I was just checking them out.


Good luck,


Merrill

Maddox61
November 15th, 2011, 10:06 PM
Should have been in bed a couple of hours ago! likewise I'm retired took an early retirement package a year ago, may look for something part time If I get too bored! Can't see that with my Hobbies though, Trainz and Ham radio.

Checked just out Colorado on that link seems, as far as I can tell from being in the UK, to be all there.


Going to check them out now.

Yah, my retirement was a forced one if you know what I mean. The word is disabled.
Shoot, I'm only 50 and the doc can't find the problem why I can't walk over 25 ft. without loosing it.
Modern Technology.:hehe:

This Trainz stuff keeps me sane.

Off to check out that link.


Thanks,

Merrill

Maddox61
November 15th, 2011, 10:16 PM
Should have been in bed a couple of hours ago! likewise I'm retired took an early retirement package a year ago, may look for something part time If I get too bored! Can't see that with my Hobbies though, Trainz and Ham radio.

Checked just out Colorado on that link seems, as far as I can tell from being in the UK, to be all there.

Don't know where my mind was. This was the link to the site I have been getting all my DEMs.:hehe:

They are the ones that have all the DEMs for the entire state of Colorado. Funny because I downloaded and opened them all for 2 entire counties in
MicroDem and they were all there except for the one little hole. And as I zoomed in, I noticed that it was the most important piece of the model.:eek:

I have checked everywhere for the missing piece with no luck.

I do know that the land belongs to the D&RG and they also have photo rights as far as I know. My nephew stays out there and owns a photography studio in Colorado Springs.

Oh well, Back to the books.


Thanks again,

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 12:43 AM
Is there a way to take an image, like the one below and use the contour lines to create a DEM. Or is this just out of the question?

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/382807_129452393829815_100715553370166_152495_7734 5882_n.jpg


Also, if the DEM map is created using a color scale, could this not also be created using Photoshop, or am I going way outfield.

Dermmy
November 16th, 2011, 02:48 AM
WOW,

After all the help everyone has given me to learn to create and load DEMs into Trainz, the main part of the route has been removed from the Gis Depot, the DEM for the Royal Gorge.

That's my usual source for quads. I just checked and I can't see anything obviously missing....

Dermmy
November 16th, 2011, 02:53 AM
On the subject of DEM files - can anybody tell me if DEMs are available for Soth Australia, namely the Barossa Valley Region. I would like to know before purchasing TransDEM.

Thanks in advance
Bob

Absolutely yes - the entire globe is mapped! TransDEM will direct you to the exact download, and will even allow for the non-standard Australian grid references. For anybody working outside the USA TransDEM is absolutely indispensable (and in all honesty is probably equally invaluable for USA routes, I just have my feet stuck irremovably in doing it the old way!).

Even if you only ever make one map using TransDEM it is worth the money...

Andy ;)

Dermmy
November 16th, 2011, 02:55 AM
Is there a way to take an image, like the one below and use the contour lines to create a DEM. Or is this just out of the question?
Also, if the DEM map is created using a color scale, could this not also be created using Photoshop, or am I going way outfield.

Nothing is impossible, but that way has just gotta be too hard LOL

I'm outa here - three posts in a row is prolly two too many...

Andy ;)

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 02:59 AM
That's my usual source for quads. I just checked and I can't see anything obviously missing....

It don't realy say. The closest city to it is Canon City. It lists most every city in the county, but the main portion of the Gorge is outside any city limits or area. What is not private land belongs to the Government.

I do have one more question, Will a greyscale DEM work in Hog?

I found a way to create grey scale DEMs in Google Earth by layering black images over one enother with the opacity set real low, then adjust the image to the elevation.

Oh well, 2:44 am here. Time to get some rest.

Thanks,

Merrill

geophil
November 16th, 2011, 03:44 AM
Brief overview of free DEM resources (non-exhaustive list), all tested with TransDEM:
Worldwide (-60° to +60° latitude) : SRTM, 3 arc sec, some voids.
Worldwide (ca -80° to +80° latitude) : ASTER GDEM V2, 1 arc sec (nominal), artefacts
USA (CONUS) : USGS NED, 1/3 arc sec, some areas 1/9 arc sec
Canada : CDED, 0.75 arc sec
Mexico : MDE, 1 arc sec (nominal), requires upcoming TransDEM 2.2
UK (Great Britain) : O/S Land-Form Panorama, 50m
European Alps : Viewfinder Panoramas, 1 arc sec
New Zealand : LRIS NZDEM, 25 m


More details in the TransDEM forum

cascaderailroad
November 16th, 2011, 10:18 AM
Since you rarely roam several hundered feet from the mainline ... a DEM in most cases is un-needed ... Be careful what you wish for ... a DEM controls you, and gradients are a nightmare.

mjolnir
November 16th, 2011, 11:07 AM
Merrill

If you decide to go this route


I would need to locate a ts2006 build. Probably one out there someplace.


I've most recently seen a copy of the CD edition of TRS 2006 in a big box store within the past few months, priced about $10.00 US. There're new ones on Amazon for about twice that price.

ns

cascaderailroad
November 16th, 2011, 12:40 PM
If you buy TRS2006 build 3337 requires no SP
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc339/cascaderailroad/TrainzRailwayz.jpg
Trainz Railwayz Full Version
Make sure it is New/Sealed/Never Opened

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 01:04 PM
Since you rarely roam several hundered feet from the mainline ... a DEM in most cases is un-needed ... Be careful what you wish for ... a DEM controls you, and gradients are a nightmare.


Is there a better way to go other than DEMs?
The layout is 54 miles long and would take about 1 year to manualy create the elevations alone.

Also, a large amount of the Royal Gorge is only around 300m wide, Not to mention the grade. The elevation in Canon City is 5400 feet and the elevation in Salida is 7500 feet. And there is no up and down, only one steady climb.

If the layout was straight, it would be no problem. But this thing has more curves than Pamala Anderson and would be a nightmare to try to create by hand.

As for roaming only 200 feet away from the track. if everyone looked at it this way, most layouts would consist of a track and a bunch of backdrop images. :hehe:

I am open for suggestions.


Thanks,

Merrill

geophil
November 16th, 2011, 01:06 PM
Since you rarely roam several hundered feet from the mainline ... a DEM in most cases is un-needed ... Be careful what you wish for ... a DEM controls you, and gradients are a nightmare.I know you are the Last Man Standing and I hope you don't mind.

Are you aware of the extended viewing distance in more recent editions of Trainz? Even with unspectacular terrain a bit of terra-shaping always adds to the visual impression, for fore-and background.

ASTER GDEM V2 with 1:25k topo map ground textures on 5m terrain grid in TS12.
http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/thumb_Ruhrtal-ASTER2-3DGleisGeom.jpg (http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/Ruhrtal-ASTER2-3DGleisGeom.jpg)
(3D track spline control points created externally.)

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 02:07 PM
Ok, I guess I need to explain a bit on why I am so much into the elevations and serounding area, other than simply what can be seen from the main line.

At the center of the Royal Gorge, this is just outside Canon City Colorado, the track elevation is around 5,400ft. or 1645.92m. Just above this is a very well known suspention bridge that was made using wooden deck boards. Cars travel across this bridge. Its elevation is 6,600ft or 2011.68m and the Bridge is around 300m long.

I know you will not be able to see an elevation that high from the train, but let me further explain.


First this will give you an idea on how wide the gorge is and how steep the cliffs are.

Also, there is an incline railroad that goes from the visitors area, that sets beside the bridge, that can be rode to the bottom of the gorge. Not to mention, they have a sort of depot at the bottom of the incline railway for the D&RG. And I do intend on creating hte incline railway.

Just beside this is the cable suspended train bridge that suspends out over the Arkansas River.

Keep in mind that the train bridge does not cross the river. The canyon was so narrow at this point that they had to hang the train bridge from cables, suspend it out away from the cliffs and over the rapids of the Arkansas River in order to get the train through the canyon.

This was the main problem for both the Santa fe and D&RG to get the route from Pueblo, Colorado, over the Greate Devide to Salt Lake City Utah without
having to go all the way around the mountain.

This is a major tourist attraction in Colorado and one of the main reasons I chose to try and build this layout. I will have to model the Incline Railway, Wooden Suspention Bridge, Depot, and the Cable Suspended Train Bridge my self. I am also going to have to model most of the cliffs in that area, since they are so steep and can not be textured very well.

So, there is a reason for my madness after all.:udrool:


Merrill

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 02:10 PM
I know you are the Last Man Standing and I hope you don't mind.

Are you aware of the extended viewing distance in more recent editions of Trainz? Even with unspectacular terrain a bit of terra-shaping always adds to the visual impression, for fore-and background.

ASTER GDEM V2 with 1:25k topo map ground textures on 5m terrain grid in TS12.
http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/thumb_Ruhrtal-ASTER2-3DGleisGeom.jpg (http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/Ruhrtal-ASTER2-3DGleisGeom.jpg)
(3D track spline control points created externally.)

Well put! Thank you.:)

Dermmy
November 16th, 2011, 02:15 PM
Is there a better way to go other than DEMs?

....No....

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 03:22 PM
....No....

I din't thinks so.:hehe:

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 03:25 PM
Here is a DEM I created using Google Earth using 10m intervals.

I there a way to get this to work in MicroDem or Hog?

If so, this only took about 15 minutes to make and can be made in 720m sections to create the boards. Then all I would need to do is merge each board in Trainz.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/302451_129729740468747_100715553370166_153230_4186 96451_n.jpg

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 03:30 PM
Here is a pic of the Dem in Google while I was creating it.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/388010_129735273801527_100715553370166_153241_1778 964680_n.jpg

SO, would this work, or can I get it to work?


Thanks again,

Merrill

geophil
November 16th, 2011, 03:35 PM
This is a major tourist attraction in Colorado... It is indeed. I have been there twice myself, years ago, when the line was still in service (SP days).

Concerning DEMs, the NED 1/3 arc sec is the best you get. It leaves something to desire, you can't make out the track bed, but there is no 1/9 arc sec yet.

geophil
November 16th, 2011, 03:39 PM
Here is a DEM I created using Google Earth using 10m intervals.
You simply download the DEMs from USGS Seamless Server, no need to create them yourself.

Overlay: USGS DRG 1:24k

http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/thumb_royalgorge.jpg (http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/royalgorge.jpg)

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 03:59 PM
OK,

So I did a test using Hog and created a layout using this image.
It worked a little.

The grey scale does work I believe, but the opacity levels need to be increased.
The level I had it set at was only 1.3 and should have been close to 2.5 to get more depth.

I will have to keep on tweeking it untill I get the correct opacity level to give me an exact elovation on 10m.

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 04:26 PM
You simply download the DEMs from USGS Seamless Server, no need to create them yourself.

Overlay: USGS DRG 1:24k

http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/thumb_royalgorge.jpg (http://img.transdem.de/albums/userpics/10001/royalgorge.jpg)


So let me see if I am getting this right,

Using the USGS Seamless Server, I can get an overlay of any area I want and download it as a DEM, right?


I tried to open the Seamless Server and it would not open the map overlay. I seen the little globe spinning but then it stopped an dsaid it could not load.

Must all the tools to access data be downloaded to get this to work.
If so, then this will be creating another very large training curve, since I would need to learn to opperate each tool.
The Toolbar alone has a 17 page set of instructions.

Thanks,


Merrill

geophil
November 16th, 2011, 04:40 PM
You have to distinguish between DEM and map.

The DEM is just height data, a matrix of points, usually binary encoded, but not necessarily image files. USGS Seamless Server is the primary source for US DEMs, called "NED".

Maps in our case are ordinary raster images, enhanced with geo coordinates. The map overlay here is from another source, a Web Mapping Service (WMS), in this case the one operated by Microsoft Research. There is also a new USGS WMS, theoretically offering the same data, but I have had difficulties using it.

Such raster maps cannot be used with MicroDEM/HOG. The only reasonable type of map which MicroDEM understands, is TIGER, a US census vector map at a rather low scale of 1:160,000.

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 05:46 PM
Deleted by me.

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 08:03 PM
Deleted by me.

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 08:37 PM
I realy need to step back for a moment and feel this whole thing out.

Too much input all at once.

JCitron
November 16th, 2011, 08:46 PM
I realy need to step back for a moment and feel this whole thing out.

Too much input all at once.

A bit overwhelmed, aye? ;)

I gave in and purchased TranzDem nearly a year a go. It's worth it's purchase of about $35.00. I used to do things like you were before, but gave up with MicroDEM because there were too many steps to create a route terrain. With TranzDem and the tutorials, you'll be up and running quickly.

John

Euphod
November 16th, 2011, 08:51 PM
There's always MMMG...:D

Maddox61
November 16th, 2011, 10:53 PM
:hehe:
There's always MMMG...

MMMG.....?


Ok, Cheat codes. Don't think it will help in my situation.
Unless they got one that is MMMGD&RG. That sure would be greate.:hehe:

Maddox61
November 17th, 2011, 12:04 AM
A bit overwhelmed, aye? ;)

I gave in and purchased TranzDem nearly a year a go. It's worth it's purchase of about $35.00. I used to do things like you were before, but gave up with MicroDEM because there were too many steps to create a route terrain. With TranzDem and the tutorials, you'll be up and running quickly.

John


A bit overwhelmed?

Let me give you all a little history on how this all got started.


About 5 months ago, my grandson found this program on the internet and could not live without it. So I went ahead and got it for him through Amazon.

After I recieved the game and tried to load it for him. I found out that it would hardly run on my WindowsXP that only had 1gig of ram. :(

While learning that I needed a better system, I also found out that I could create 3D models and load them into Trainz. Wow, was I surprised. I could build the models that my grandson could play with.

So I started learning how to run Gmax since the only alternative was a $1,000+ program called 3D max.

Fallowing this I found that I was going to need a program such as Photoshop. Another expensive program, till I found out about Gimp.
So I spent a while learning how to run gimp. I read and studied there entire tutorial so that I could create bump maps and textures.

While learning to create models using Gmax, I ran across Blender. Oh boy, we fell in love, since the keyboard has always been my best freind.
So now I spend the time learning to use Blender.

Now with Blender, You have a lot of rendering software out there, Cycles, LuxRender and more. So I loaded Cycles and Luxrender and had to learn how to use them.:eek:

Now that I have complete all the tutorials in CG Cookies web site, I deside that it was time to get back to Trainz.:D

So knowing that my system is too slow for Trainz to operate right, I go out and pic up a new PC to run Trainz on. W7/64bit/4gigs ram and still realy too slow. But I can live with it for now.

Now I reload Trainz, works ok.

But,

Lo and behold, The way we use models in Blender don't count in Trainz. So I had to learn how to get the model loaded into Trainz. (IE. creating the config files.)

Now, after all this and 5 months later, my grandson has done forgot all about the game and it has become an obsession for me.

So, now it was time to create my first layout. Yes!!! The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, the just reward, the light at the end of the train tunnel, the.................wait.............NO........... ....I can't adjust the elevation of a grid by hand on a layout with over 50 miles of track.:'(
So I find out that I can create the elevation using a tool called MicroDem and Hog.

Now I download MicroDem and Hog using the tutorial on wewain Trainz Fan Site, read completely through it, twice, and had many problems since most everything for Trainz is now outdated.
But, with the help of all of you, I can now download a DEM along with the Tiger files from http://www.geocomm.com/ , load them into MicroDem, create the images, open Gimp and create the .tga file needed for Hog, open Hog and create the mapfile.gnd needed for Trainz, open Trainz, create a new layout, open the CM and replace the mapfile with the one created in Hog.

And thanks to you guys, I can do this now in about 5-10 minutes. That is of course if I do not merge any DEM in MicroDem.




Now I am at this point. The route I want to create has a total of 45 DEMs that I had to download from Geocomm. And when I started merging them together in MicroDem, I found 1 DEM missing right in the center of the route.:eek:

SO now I start frantically searching for the missing section of my DEM.
With no luck I turn back to the forum.

Now I think I am finding out that I can not get that section using MicroDem.
Probably the only section in the US that is missing and it so happens to be right in the middle of my map:'(

So now, I must get another program called TransDem, that I undertand is another huge learning curve, so that I can get the one section I need and finaly get started laying some rails.

Keep in mind, I am retired/disabled and my disability prevents me from leaving the house. So I spend more than 8 - 10 hours a day 5-6 days a week on my PC.
Example: I got started today around 9:00am, it is now 11:45pm. So I have put in almost 15 hours today alone. And the crazy thing is, all I work on is Trainz and models for Trainz. Check the times on my posts. I can honestly say I have put in over 1,200 hours learning modeling and Trainz in the past 5 months and have yet to lay one piece of track.

Can you feel the my pain.:confused:

This is why at times I wll seem to get a bit frustrated about "Well, you need to try this program." Then after about 10 minutes of stress, I try the program anyway.:hehe:
And as alway, I am still open for suggestions.



So, this is my life story for the past 5 months. Exciting right.
But atleast it keeps me sane.

So thanks again for all the help you guys have given me. Believe me, it don't go to waste. And one day, I will be able to help others to repay the favor.


Oh, And thanks for reading my book!;)

Merrill

Maddox61
November 17th, 2011, 12:43 AM
As for TransDem.

I have no doubt that it is a greate program.

However, I have 6 children, 4 son-inlaws, 1 daughter-inlaw, 15 grandchildren and 1 greate grandchild. And with Christmas coming, spending money on TransDem for myself is just out of the question.

So, I will keep trying to figure out a way to do this, if I have to do it by hand.

I may get stressed at times, but I refuse to give up.;)

Thanks again,

Merrill

Dermmy
November 17th, 2011, 12:50 AM
MMMG.....?

Make Me a Map George.

Alt + MMMG (or is it Ctrl+?) will create a random map. Kids toy, and why 'George'? The answer to that is lost in the mists of time!....

I'm still kinda confused about the 'missing bit' in the middle of the DEM? The 'quads' you are downloading cover the entire USA, no 'gaps'. The site you are using lists DEMs by County, generally if a quad straddles two counties it is listed under both, but I have on a couple of occasions found a 'missing bit' listed on the page for an adjoining County, might be worth checking...

Andy

JCitron
November 17th, 2011, 12:59 AM
Well Merrill, all I can say is welcome to the world of Trainz and all that comes with it. :D

As you've found out, you've probably just scratched the surface. :D Now with your whole world taken over by this great way of life, you'll be learning a ton of stuff as you go along. What's cool is you can do whatever you want with the program, taking it to the n-degree of complexity.

I've recently just discovered the great useful tool called TranzDEM. It's only taken me 6 years to get here! So for about $32.00 or so, it really is a great time saver. I don't use all the features in this program. I have very little time to do what I'd like to do, so I've learned the barest minimum to make it work right now, and will delve in deeper when my time permits. Anyway, I simply download the orthographic images from the National Tile Server along with their corresponding DEM file. I then fix 'em up and import them into Trainz for merging together, which I'm doing now for Down East Maine.

Anyway there's so much to this program called Trainz that we don't call it a "game" here. This is really a way of life. There are stories of guys getting divorced because they got too involved with the program. Whether this is true, I doubt it, but it's funny to think about!

Anyway, think of this as a giant model railroad. You have your baseboards, which require building whether by hand, or by mergers, or by DEM files. You then have your model building, which is similar to scratch building where you need to cobble up something to fit the spot, so you get out the scrap box and dig out the bits and parts to make that custom building to fit that corner of your route/layout, whatever you want to call it.

The other aspects, which you've probably not even thought of include the programming and scripting, which makes everything come alive. This is akin to the wiring and controlling of your model railroad. Wait until you get into these. You'll have things running automatically, and you'll be in there tweaking under the hood to make it even better.

So what am I getting at? Seriously take your time. Enjoy the ride because there's no rush with this program. You're subscription isn't going to run out, and all it will do is frustrate you. Step back and breath once in awhile. It's funny I spend most of my time in this program when I get home from work, but I will step aside and practice the piano too. (I was actually a music major once, but live in the IT support world instead). I find that these other things give my mind a way to solve little icky things in Trainz that I've been working out.

So as I was saying, have fun. This is good thing that's happening with you. It's keeping your mind occupied as you puzzle through the different aspects of the program. Imagine staying home with nothing else to do. That's what would happen without Trainz!

John

Maddox61
November 17th, 2011, 01:04 AM
Make Me a Map George.

Alt + MMMG (or is it Ctrl+?) will create a random map. Kids toy, and why 'George'? The answer to that is lost in the mists of time!....

I'm still kinda confused about the 'missing bit' in the middle of the DEM? The 'quads' you are downloading cover the entire USA, no 'gaps'. The site you are using lists DEMs by County, generally if a quad straddles two counties it is listed under both, but I have on a couple of occasions found a 'missing bit' listed on the page for an adjoining County, might be worth checking...

Andy

I have checked with http://www.geocomm.com/ and they have listings in there help pages from people as far back as 2002 asking about the missing files for the Royal Gorge. I don't know if it is a copyright problem or if it is the elevation itself.

The area that is missing has a canyon that is about 300m across at the top and is almost 300m deep. I aint sure that the depth does not have something to do with it being missing.

Here is a pic of the area I need. And was the motivating factor for my choosing this layout;

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/378452_129954657112922_100715553370166_153863_1858 740880_n.jpg


You can see the cable suspended tracks just above the platform. The cables are attached to the 2 beems that are drove into the rocks, that cross the river. No other supports. Amazing!

Maddox61
November 17th, 2011, 01:39 AM
Well Merrill, all I can say is welcome to the world of Trainz and all that comes with it. :D

As you've found out, you've probably just scratched the surface. :D Now with your whole world taken over by this great way of life, you'll be learning a ton of stuff as you go along. What's cool is you can do whatever you want with the program, taking it to the n-degree of complexity.

I've recently just discovered the great useful tool called TranzDEM. It's only taken me 6 years to get here! So for about $32.00 or so, it really is a great time saver. I don't use all the features in this program. I have very little time to do what I'd like to do, so I've learned the barest minimum to make it work right now, and will delve in deeper when my time permits. Anyway, I simply download the orthographic images from the National Tile Server along with their corresponding DEM file. I then fix 'em up and import them into Trainz for merging together, which I'm doing now for Down East Maine.

Anyway there's so much to this program called Trainz that we don't call it a "game" here. This is really a way of life. There are stories of guys getting divorced because they got too involved with the program. Whether this is true, I doubt it, but it's funny to think about!

Anyway, think of this as a giant model railroad. You have your baseboards, which require building whether by hand, or by mergers, or by DEM files. You then have your model building, which is similar to scratch building where you need to cobble up something to fit the spot, so you get out the scrap box and dig out the bits and parts to make that custom building to fit that corner of your route/layout, whatever you want to call it.

The other aspects, which you've probably not even thought of include the programming and scripting, which makes everything come alive. This is akin to the wiring and controlling of your model railroad. Wait until you get into these. You'll have things running automatically, and you'll be in there tweaking under the hood to make it even better.

So what am I getting at? Seriously take your time. Enjoy the ride because there's no rush with this program. You're subscription isn't going to run out, and all it will do is frustrate you. Step back and breath once in awhile. It's funny I spend most of my time in this program when I get home from work, but I will step aside and practice the piano too. (I was actually a music major once, but live in the IT support world instead). I find that these other things give my mind a way to solve little icky things in Trainz that I've been working out.

So as I was saying, have fun. This is good thing that's happening with you. It's keeping your mind occupied as you puzzle through the different aspects of the program. Imagine staying home with nothing else to do. That's what would happen without Trainz!

John

Yah your right, This is what keeps me sane.

It has been a lot of fun. but with anything that we must learn, at times they tend to get under our skin. But that goes with anything like this.

Nothing good comes without a price right?

It has been a learning experience. And as for the scripting. I try not to even think of that just yet. What a scary thought.:confused:

Well, I need to catch some Zs. Been on here now for 16 hours today. My fingers are sore.

Matter of fact, mt PC is less than 2 months old and the letters are all worn off the keys.:hehe:


Thanks

Merrill

cascaderailroad
November 17th, 2011, 06:20 AM
WoW ... I'd be totally a skeered' driving across that bridge ! ... Are big rigs allowed to cross it ? Imagine base jumping off a that ... Owwch Oooch Ooof ... all the way down, banging off of the rock walls.

scratchy
November 17th, 2011, 07:00 AM
Nah that'd be wayyy to scary :hehe: I think its a 3 car limit at any time, pretty fun when ur on it as well, the whole bridge bouncing around.. Literally stumbled across this bridge while in the states a couple months back, amazing place. Throwing snowballs off and trying to hit the railroad 1000ft below :o

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263571_241020279242848_100000046344080_1093826_135 5685_n.jpg

HiBaller
November 17th, 2011, 11:17 AM
... Throwing snowballs off and trying to hit the railroad 1000ft below :o



Woops! If anyone had caught you it is a $500 fine for just that. Even snowballs at terminal velocity can punch through an aluminum roof. Imagine how much damage could have been done if it were a rock. A big enough one could crack a tie.

Bill

Maddox61
November 17th, 2011, 07:01 PM
Nah that'd be wayyy to scary :hehe: I think its a 3 car limit at any time, pretty fun when ur on it as well, the whole bridge bouncing around.. Literally stumbled across this bridge while in the states a couple months back, amazing place. Throwing snowballs off and trying to hit the railroad 1000ft below :o

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263571_241020279242848_100000046344080_1093826_135 5685_n.jpg


Yah,

I remember the bouncing.

My sis lives in the springs. Her, my wife and I set out there on the bridge for a while just standing there waiting for cars to pass by. Could hardly stop laughing.:hehe:


Fantastic pic by the way.



Merrill

cascaderailroad
November 17th, 2011, 08:48 PM
Just playing around in the gorgeous Gorge !

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc339/cascaderailroad/Screen_001-25.jpg

Maddox61
November 17th, 2011, 09:01 PM
Just playing around in the gorgeous Gorge !

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc339/cascaderailroad/Screen_001-25.jpg

Ok, So was that created with a DEM, If so, where did you get the data, or did you do that by hand (since a DEM would have given you smoother edges)?

If you did this by hand, how long did it take you?

I did one board by hand. No problem. Only took a couple hours using an image with the contour lines.

The only problem would be, I need to do this about 250 times. And I realy don't wish to spend an entire year trying to create just the board.


I like the cube looking cut outs between the tracks and the river bed. That gives it that real rock look, right?:hehe:



Merrill

cascaderailroad
November 17th, 2011, 09:15 PM
I was just tinkering around with this, and this took me @ an hour ... but could be done in 15 minutes with practice.

Doing it by hand would take forever, and would not be accurate at all ... So a DEM would be best for this rugged terrian.

Where exactly is this area that you want ... from where, to where.

I do not know how to make DEM's.

clam1952
November 17th, 2011, 10:04 PM
I've doing some internet scouring, it seems for some reason that Dem is not available, very odd, I did find an old post by someone who actually had it, links were dead though. Tried the wayback machine but nothing there, It must exist somewhere though.

If you look at Google Earth the imagery isn't very good, I suspect that might have something to do with it.

Incidentally I found a setting in Microdem where you can set the pixel size that might solve the 9.8 9.97 problem, I've tried it on a small DEM, just need to check measurements. Theory is that should correct the size for hog so the pixel size is 10.

Dermmy
November 17th, 2011, 11:26 PM
LOL - I also did some scouting - that must be the only missing quad in the entire USA! My guess would be that because the canyon is so deep and narrow if the shuttle didn't fire the laser from directly over-head the data would be hopelessly compromised, so the issue would be whether not having it or not made all that much difference.

Merrill you may not be aware, but Microdem/HOG will cheerfully make the route with the 'hole', assuming the Tiger data is complete. I guess it depends on how many boards need to be done by hand whether it is worth it or not.

It might also be worth looking at seamless data (see geophil's post below) to see whether that bit is missing there also...

Andy

JCitron
November 18th, 2011, 12:14 AM
Merrill,

Check out this here:

http://viewer.nationalmap.gov/viewer/

This may have what you are looking for, albeit in 1 arc-second, as Andy said.

I've been using this for my own project recently, which isn't quite as challenging as yours.

Good luck, and have fun! :D

John

Dermmy
November 18th, 2011, 01:59 AM
John the USGS Map Viewer has been updated recently and I haven't been able to get it to load in IE, Chrome or F'Fox. It could be my very slow conexn, have you had more luck? It is the only source I know to identify which Quads a route requires...

Andy :)

geophil
November 18th, 2011, 01:59 AM
One cause for confusion is the term DEM (Digital Elevation Model). By definition, this is a digital geo data resource, a kind of cartographic map, with only one feature: elevation. A DEM has nothing to do with Trainz at all.

Trainz route builders sometimes say DEM when they actually mean a DEM-based but otherwise blank Trainz route.


Now back to DEM sources for the Royal Gorge.

As I said a couple of times before, the standard DEM for the 48 continuous US states is named NED, the National Elevation Data. It is available from USGS Seamless Server: http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm

Seamless means tailor-made. Pick your area and the server produces your personal DEM file.

For the Royal Gorge you get 1/3 arc sec, but not 1/9. For best results choose GeoTIFF format, since this is the only one with floating point vertical resolution. (Applies to TransDEM. For the MicroDEM/HOG process you would need the Piglet utility to benefit from GeoTIFF.)

clam1952
November 18th, 2011, 08:16 AM
John the USGS Map Viewer has been updated recently and I haven't been able to get it to load in IE, Chrome or F'Fox. It could be my very slow conexn, have you had more luck? It is the only source I know to identify which Quads a route requires...

Andy :)

It's stuck on loading here and I have a reasonably fast connection, the screen says its been updated and is faster? Probably means they are actually working on it at the moment.

JCitron
November 18th, 2011, 05:54 PM
It's stuck on loading here and I have a reasonably fast connection, the screen says its been updated and is faster? Probably means they are actually working on it at the moment.

Their server must be being upgraded because it worked somewhat late last night. It was down off and on previously where you couldn't select anything. They manage to do this on weekends when we like to download, and have it running just in time for Monday when we're ready for work.

I have also have found that at night during the week it gets really busy too - it must be like the DLS used to be with all the Trainzers trying to download maps!

John

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 08:00 PM
I've doing some internet scouring, it seems for some reason that Dem is not available, very odd, I did find an old post by someone who actually had it, links were dead though. Tried the wayback machine but nothing there, It must exist somewhere though.

If you look at Google Earth the imagery isn't very good, I suspect that might have something to do with it.

Incidentally I found a setting in Microdem where you can set the pixel size that might solve the 9.8 9.97 problem, I've tried it on a small DEM, just need to check measurements. Theory is that should correct the size for hog so the pixel size is 10.


If you subtract .005 from the number you are to put into the zoom tab, you will hit 10.00 every time. If the number is over 4.000 or 40.00 then subrtact .005 from the number.;)

Merrill

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 08:11 PM
One cause for confusion is the term DEM (Digital Elevation Model). By definition, this is a digital geo data resource, a kind of cartographic map, with only one feature: elevation. A DEM has nothing to do with Trainz at all.

Trainz route builders sometimes say DEM when they actually mean a DEM-based but otherwise blank Trainz route.


Now back to DEM sources for the Royal Gorge.

As I said a couple of times before, the standard DEM for the 48 continuous US states is named NED, the National Elevation Data. It is available from USGS Seamless Server: http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm

Seamless means tailor-made. Pick your area and the server produces your personal DEM file.

For the Royal Gorge you get 1/3 arc sec, but not 1/9. For best results choose GeoTIFF format, since this is the only one with floating point vertical resolution. (Applies to TransDEM. For the MicroDEM/HOG process you would need the Piglet utility to benefit from GeoTIFF.)

I did this, and when I put in the location it came back with '0' data for that area. Even when I added all data sets. I can go right beside that area and pull up all kinds of data but the minute I get over the deepest end of the Gorge, It says "No Data Found"

I am about to give up and just have a go at doing that one part by hand. It will most likely be around 10 to 15 boards.

I figure if I add an image of the contour lines and map and raise the elevation in layers, I could get most of it right. the only trouble would be smoothing the grid between layers, so it would not look like a bunch of cube cuts.

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 08:17 PM
One cause for confusion is the term DEM (Digital Elevation Model). By definition, this is a digital geo data resource, a kind of cartographic map, with only one feature: elevation. A DEM has nothing to do with Trainz at all.

Trainz route builders sometimes say DEM when they actually mean a DEM-based but otherwise blank Trainz route.


Now back to DEM sources for the Royal Gorge.

As I said a couple of times before, the standard DEM for the 48 continuous US states is named NED, the National Elevation Data. It is available from USGS Seamless Server: http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm

Seamless means tailor-made. Pick your area and the server produces your personal DEM file.

For the Royal Gorge you get 1/3 arc sec, but not 1/9. For best results choose GeoTIFF format, since this is the only one with floating point vertical resolution. (Applies to TransDEM. For the MicroDEM/HOG process you would need the Piglet utility to benefit from GeoTIFF.)


Another thing is, have you checked that link? I know I have a very high speed internet service and I can't get the viewer to load.

I tried to get the data from http://edcsns17.cr.usgs.gov/NewEarthExplorer/ With no luck for that area.

mezzoprezzo
November 18th, 2011, 08:34 PM
~snip~ I figure if I add an image of the contour lines and map and raise the elevation in layers, I could get most of it right. the only trouble would be smoothing the grid between layers, so it would not look like a bunch of cube cuts.

I did part of the Swanage Railway in southern England using an image of an Ordnance Survey map on a basemap then used invisible track to set the contour levels.

To help with the smoothing I built a lattice of cross section invisible tracks which helped with the smoothing out of the inevitable “steps”. However, it didn’t eliminate it completely, so there was a lot of hand finishing using the terrain tools set to minimum radius.

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff461/fstrainz/d37d811e.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff461/fstrainz/7d7c777f.jpg

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 08:40 PM
Merrill,

Check out this here:

http://viewer.nationalmap.gov/viewer/

This may have what you are looking for, albeit in 1 arc-second, as Andy said.

I've been using this for my own project recently, which isn't quite as challenging as yours.

Good luck, and have fun! :D

John
Hey John,

This is the closest I have gotten. In this viewer, I could get some data on the area in mention.:D

But I aint sure what data I am needing sence nothing syas DEM. So I selected all under US Topo maps.
I got 2 sets of data, I believe 1arc and 1/3.


If this is what I need, can the info be used in MicroDem? If so, how posible?
Sence I have only worked with loading DEMs into Microdem.

Thanks

Merill

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 08:48 PM
One cause for confusion is the term DEM (Digital Elevation Model). By definition, this is a digital geo data resource, a kind of cartographic map, with only one feature: elevation. A DEM has nothing to do with Trainz at all.

Trainz route builders sometimes say DEM when they actually mean a DEM-based but otherwise blank Trainz route.


Now back to DEM sources for the Royal Gorge.

As I said a couple of times before, the standard DEM for the 48 continuous US states is named NED, the National Elevation Data. It is available from USGS Seamless Server: http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm

Seamless means tailor-made. Pick your area and the server produces your personal DEM file.

For the Royal Gorge you get 1/3 arc sec, but not 1/9. For best results choose GeoTIFF format, since this is the only one with floating point vertical resolution. (Applies to TransDEM. For the MicroDEM/HOG process you would need the Piglet utility to benefit from GeoTIFF.)

Ok, So far, I have the 1/3 arc downloaded in the GeoTIFF format. I know this sound dumb, but I do not know what the Piglet utility is. I tried to google it and got Piglet from WaltDisney anad I don't think that piglet is going to be able to help me.:hehe:

Can you please explain:confused:

Thanks,


Merrill

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 08:53 PM
I did part of the Swanage Railway in southern England using an image of an Ordnance Survey map on a basemap then used invisible track to set the contour levels.

To help with the smoothing I built a lattice of cross section invisible tracks which helped with the smoothing out of the inevitable “steps”. However, it didn’t eliminate it completely, so there was a lot of hand finishing using the terrain tools set to minimum radius.

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff461/fstrainz/d37d811e.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff461/fstrainz/7d7c777f.jpg

Very nice job on the layout. I tried some of the same technique. It works greate on a lot of areas, but when you have an elevation of almost a 70 degree angle in rocks it didn't work too well.

But like I said, I tworked greate on terrain such as in hte city, or around hills.

Greate idea though.


Thanks,

Merrill

clam1952
November 18th, 2011, 08:57 PM
Microdem, the current version will open geotiff, seems to deal with virtually everything now.

You can always use the 5m grid which will give finer adjustment if doing it by hand.

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 10:29 PM
Microdem, the current version will open geotiff, seems to deal with virtually everything now.

You can always use the 5m grid which will give finer adjustment if doing it by hand.


I tried to use MicroDem to load these. I used open DEM and selected the geotiff. It said I had a "Range check error". Not sure what this means.

I know that the data I downloaded was the only one available that listed a 1/3 arc. in a geotiff format.
I am going to try and see if there is maybe something else I may have done wrong.

We're getting closer though.:)


Thanks,

Merrill

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 10:32 PM
Microdem, the current version will open geotiff, seems to deal with virtually everything now.

You can always use the 5m grid which will give finer adjustment if doing it by hand.


Shows how much I need to learn. Didn't know they had an adjustment for the grid. I guess I do now though, don't I?;)

Thanks,


Merrill

NSWGR_46Class
November 18th, 2011, 10:35 PM
Shows how much I need to learn. Didn't know they had an adjustment for the grid. I guess I do now though, don't I?;)

Thanks,


Merrill

not in 2009 --- like the man said in the current version you can change the 10 meter grid to a 5 meter grid

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 11:10 PM
not in 2009 --- like the man said in the current version you can change the 10 meter grid to a 5 meter grid

He said you could open geoTiff files in the Current Version of Microdem.

That if I wanted to build the layout by hand I could try setting the grid to 5m.

It is however, good to know that it can not be adjusted in ts2009.

Thanks

Maddox61
November 18th, 2011, 11:19 PM
Hey Malc,

So, I went back and downloaded evry file they had that was in a geotiff format.
The file pertaining to the 1 and 1/3 arc.

When I went to open them in MicroDem, I am assuming that I select "open DEM".

When I do this, I get an error that reads "Range Check Error"

Shoould I be loading this in a different way or as a different type of file?

All I know to do is go back to MicroDem and try and open each file as many ways as posible in MicroDem. One of them should work, if your doing it.;)

I think I can, I think I can,:hehe:

Ain't going to give up. I'm on a mission now!

Thanks,

Merrill

Maddox61
November 19th, 2011, 12:58 AM
Got It!!!


Yah!!!!

Found a program that you can load into Google Earth that allows you to use there map to create DEMs.

Here is the link to the (oh so simple to fallow) instructions and the link to download the add-on for Google Earth.

http://builders.forumotion.net/t1151-tutorial-how-to-create-a-world-using-real-world-height-data

I don't know how well it is going to work yet, But I atleast got the area I needed. And it is loaded into MicroDem now.

I sure hope it will work in Hog and the elevations are correct in Trainz.

More to come as soon as aI find out if it works.

Thanks,


Merrill

Maddox61
November 19th, 2011, 02:16 AM
Well, It did work, But at the bottom of the Gorge, it is a bit rough. That must be the trouble with the USGS. At the area of the bridge, the bridge itself tends to get added to the elevation as well, sence the Gorge is so narrow. So, when I created it in Trainz, the area right under the bridge is filled in to the elevation of the bridge itself. Easy fix though.

The hard part is going to be laying the track through there. Since the Gorge is so narrow, the elevation of the track and the river are both the same. Not to mention, the elevation is not correct at the bottom, again, due to the cliffs being so high and narrow.

So I guess I will lay the track, adjust the grade and then lower the elevation beside the tracks for the river.

I am going to re load it one more time though to see if I can get the elevations just a bit closer.

One problem I am having is the elevation in that area starts off at 1530m and ends at 4298m, and Trainz only will go to 3000m.

This being the case, would you lower the entire elevation (But then could not attach to another track using real life elevations), or would you just key in the actual elevation and leave it at that?

Almost there!:D


Thanks,

Merrill

geophil
November 19th, 2011, 04:46 AM
Ok, So far, I have the 1/3 arc downloaded in the GeoTIFF format. I know this sound dumb, but I do not know what the Piglet utility is. I tried to google it and got Piglet from WaltDisney anad I don't think that piglet is going to be able to help me.:hehe: "Piglet" is an extension to "Hog", no pun intended :cool: .

Before explaining let me state that the MicroDEM/HOG process does work and does yield reasonable results, but it involves a lot of manual action and requires more than a basic understanding of what's going on. You also have been said that there is another much simpler method but that one is not free.


Now, Piglet: GeoTIFF DEMs allow floating point vertical resolution in the format. It's an option, not a requirement, but the USGS Seamless Server makes use of it.

Floating point means, the elevation value is not restricted to integers like 200m, 201m, 202m but allows for intermediate value: 200.2m. While this is irrelevant for the rock faces which form the gorge it's of much importance for a more even landscape, like the plateau above the gorge or the approach from Canon City. Better vertical resolution eliminates terracing effects in the created terrain, without the need for low pass filtering which would lose detail.

However, the standard transfer process from MicroDEM using greyscale or colour images cannot benefit from this. This transfer type restricts the number of different elevation levels to 256 (greyscale) or 128 and less (colour). No room for fractions of meters.

What you could do instead is to sve the data from MicroDEM not as an image but as a series of elevation pints in text format, called XYZ.

The Piglet utility is part of the HOG package. It can read XYZ and creates a new image file with 16bit colour depth, or 65636 different elevation levels. HOG itself can then read these 16bit Piglet images and process them as with the standard transfer, but with increased resolution.

clam1952
November 19th, 2011, 09:33 AM
He said you could open geoTiff files in the Current Version of Microdem.

That if I wanted to build the layout by hand I could try setting the grid to 5m.

It is however, good to know that it can not be adjusted in ts2009.

Thanks

2009 has the 5m grid, it was one of the advertised new features!

Maddox61
November 19th, 2011, 10:05 AM
2009 has the 5m grid, it was one of the advertised new features!


I found the advert about being able to get 5m. But do not have a setting for it. Or I ain't looking in the right place.

In surveyor, I looked under the settings , and found nothing. On the grid tab, it will only let me toggle from wire to solid frame.

Any clue as to where the setting is, or is it a code: IE. ctrl/mmmg as such?


Thanks Malc,



Merrill

Maddox61
November 19th, 2011, 10:35 AM
"Piglet" is an extension to "Hog", no pun intended :cool: .

Before explaining let me state that the MicroDEM/HOG process does work and does yield reasonable results, but it involves a lot of manual action and requires more than a basic understanding of what's going on. You also have been said that there is another much simpler method but that one is not free.


Now, Piglet: GeoTIFF DEMs allow floating point vertical resolution in the format. It's an option, not a requirement, but the USGS Seamless Server makes use of it.

Floating point means, the elevation value is not restricted to integers like 200m, 201m, 202m but allows for intermediate value: 200.2m. While this is irrelevant for the rock faces which form the gorge it's of much importance for a more even landscape, like the plateau above the gorge or the approach from Canon City. Better vertical resolution eliminates terracing effects in the created terrain, without the need for low pass filtering which would lose detail.

However, the standard transfer process from MicroDEM using greyscale or colour images cannot benefit from this. This transfer type restricts the number of different elevation levels to 256 (greyscale) or 128 and less (colour). No room for fractions of meters.

What you could do instead is to sve the data from MicroDEM not as an image but as a series of elevation pints in text format, called XYZ.

The Piglet utility is part of the HOG package. It can read XYZ and creates a new image file with 16bit colour depth, or 65636 different elevation levels. HOG itself can then read these 16bit Piglet images and process them as with the standard transfer, but with increased resolution.

If I got this right, I save the DEM as "ASCII XYZ", place this file in hog as I would a .tga image and open it using the "Tools/Convert/ASCII XYZ to" (the only thing I have is "24Bit Height map").
Then when I add the optional "Mini Map and Texturing Guide" would I still do this as if I had used an image file? Or does the XYZ include the data for the mini map and textures?


After the new year, I will be getting Trandem to use for and when I create my next route. Maybe it will make life a bit more easier on me.:hehe:


Thanks again for all the help.


Merrill

clam1952
November 19th, 2011, 10:35 AM
I found the advert about being able to get 5m. But do not have a setting for it. Or I ain't looking in the right place.

In surveyor, I looked under the settings , and found nothing. On the grid tab, it will only let me toggle from wire to solid frame.

Any clue as to where the setting is, or is it a code: IE. ctrl/mmmg as such?


Thanks Malc,



Merrill

Can never understand why this isn't made more obvious.

Right click on the add board button then click on a board and it gives you a dialogue with a dropdown that you can pick 10m or 5m grids, you have to do it a board at a time unless you initially started with a blank board and set it to 5m, then adding should make them all 5m grids.

You can change back but not recommended if you have textured, as it un-blends them and you end up with blocks of texture which you have to redo.

geophil
November 19th, 2011, 01:05 PM
If I got this right, I save the DEM as "ASCII XYZ", place this file in hog as I would a .tga image and open it using the "Tools/Convert/ASCII XYZ to" (the only thing I have is "24Bit Height map").
Then when I add the optional "Mini Map and Texturing Guide" would I still do this as if I had used an image file? Or does the XYZ include the data for the mini map and textures?Yes, that's the procedure. Do not convert to UTM before exporting as .xyz. And you are right, it's 24 bit = 3*8 bit colour depth. The image file for the mini map and textures is still extra.

Maddox61
November 19th, 2011, 04:57 PM
Can never understand why this isn't made more obvious.

Right click on the add board button then click on a board and it gives you a dialogue with a dropdown that you can pick 10m or 5m grids, you have to do it a board at a time unless you initially started with a blank board and set it to 5m, then adding should make them all 5m grids.

You can change back but not recommended if you have textured, as it un-blends them and you end up with blocks of texture which you have to redo.

Works greate.

I tink one of the problems people may have also, is that when you first do this, you would think the actual grid would change and you would get 5m between lines. When this does not work, it would lead you to believe that the 5m don't work. Then I realized that the grid don't change, only the emount of area that the elevation tools effect.

But we got it.


Thanks,


Merrill

geophil
November 19th, 2011, 05:17 PM
Correct, the default grid texture remains unchanged. It always shows the grey 5m lines (since TS2009).

BTW, you cannot create 5m baseboards with HOG, you probably knew that already. If you convert to 5m for a HOG-generated baseboard in Surveyor have a closer look at the baseboard edges. People have spotted occasional fault lines there.

Maddox61
November 19th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Yes, that's the procedure. Do not convert to UTM before exporting as .xyz. And you are right, it's 24 bit = 3*8 bit colour depth. The image file for the mini map and textures is still extra.

We got it, Took a while to figure all this out, But I found the missing link.


Thanks,


Merrill

Maddox61
November 19th, 2011, 05:55 PM
Correct, the default grid texture remains unchanged. It always shows the grey 5m lines (since TS2009).

BTW, you cannot create 5m baseboards with HOG, you probably knew that already. If you convert to 5m for a HOG-generated baseboard in Surveyor have a closer look at the baseboard edges. People have spotted occasional fault lines there.


Did not know this as of yet. But I will attempt to load it in both 5m and 10m to see what happens. I will make sure to check for the fault lines you mentioned.

If they do appear, as they do even creating a board using 10m grid, sence I was told this is a bug thing in ts2009, do you think I would be able to correct it using the technique of creating a new blank layout and merging my layout to it to get rid of the fault lines as I do with the 10m grid?

Thanks for your help,:)

Merrill

Maddox61
November 21st, 2011, 01:12 AM
I found the missing DEM files I needed for the gorge. Found them in Mapmart.

Now maybe I can get started.

I did notice when I tried to load the entire layout all at once the tiger map would align itself about 200M south of where it should be. So I tried with only a couple DEMs merged together and they worked out fine.

I guess the only way to do this would be to create maybe 6 layouts and then merge them in Trainz.

I sure did learn a few things through this little journey.


I would like to thank all you guys for all your help. I never would have been able to get this figured out on my own.



I will be getting TransDEM soon, since this has been a nightmare. I understand that it is a lot more user friendly.


Well, Thanks again,


Merrill