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novastorm2000
December 17th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Sorry for the negative tone of this post, perhaps the vets here can help me get sorted out.

When I think of trains as a traditional hobby I would think of Locomotives, Rolling Stock, and then layout materials. IE, if I walked into a hobby store in the old days, I'd see stuff organized and easily locatable.

I understand that the DLS is akin to your hobby store, but it just seems clumsy in many regards. Auran itslf doesn't seem to do a lot with this either.

I realize that one can hunt stuff down, and find everything they need.

Has anyone written a Content manager replacement or Website that is the unofficial master database of Trainz assets where active hobbiest can go and upload and or update their cataloge entries and others can fo their as an online Database and find and or access stuff?

It would be nice if as a community we had this and that there was a santizing mechanisim built into it to validate the links and then update the database to warn you if you are accessing a route or package for example that will have missing assets. I know DLS and Content manager does this to some degree, I guess as a tool I do not like it all that much. Are their alternatives?

I think that an Online database and store would be awesome!

Having a better desktop tool to review your assets and see actual pictures of them in world would be very helpful as well. I do not like the rail yard much either, not very friendly in my humble opinion.

Maybe the TRD can help us have a hobbiest view of the world where people want to buy stuff to add to their collection and we also then have a tool to manage collections. Done right, you'd be able to keep and maintain your collection online so that as hobbiest the trade discussions could also take place. Creators would thrive in an environment like this because they could take order requests for asset modifications and customizations. I know this goes on out there today, but wouldn't it be so cool to have it more easily and readily available?

Maybe it is and I just don't get it yes because I am the ignorant neebie! :)

Sorry to vent, help set me straight if you can!

E

VinnyBarb
December 17th, 2009, 01:50 PM
My view of this is, yes, it would be nice to have all of the above. But... who is going to do all this, as it would be time consuming and often hard to implement.

What we have at the moment does do me somewhat alright, if I want to look for something, there is a search function on the DLS. Yes, I know, you get a lot of entries not needed but it is the best we have. If content creators do the right thing, there should be a thumbnail picture of the item created and a good enough description of what that item is included in such item created when viewing it.

Sadly, this is not the case with many items viewed and then there is the name of the viewed item itself. Often there is a meaningless code name as item name which does not say what the bl**dy thing is. If the thumbnail pic and/or the description is missing too, then such item does not deserve to be on the DLS, however good it is.

CMP or CM2 are good tools to view such items when online trying to d/load as one sees the description and the thumbnail pic with it too but one needs a good broadband connection for this, dial up is out of the question for this.

To summarize, yes all the above you quote would be nice to have but who shall be doing all that?

Cheers

VinnyBarb

higgikay
December 17th, 2009, 02:13 PM
Hi novastorm,

I'm sure you will find a lot of us agreeing to what you said. But it's like Vinnibarb mentioned. "Who should do all that?"

Also look for example in this treat out of the last year:
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=23100

Cheers Kay

novastorm2000
December 17th, 2009, 02:39 PM
Someone can take ownership of it, pay for it and develop and sell a shareware desktop and web tool.

I imagine you could contract someone offshore or even locally to do the PHP development work for a few thousand US dollars. A tool like PHP with a MySQL Database would probably be the easiest in the long run. I am guessing this could even be done in MS Access or a Filemaker Pro tool as well, but distribution might be more expensive for users. MySQL and PHP are readily obtainable and someone could easily package a solution up into something that would install on to your local PC.

Basically its a matter of taking the exisiting Trainz DB and reverse engineering a solution that would allow management of that file using a new tool. Down side is that Auran could if its not already encrypt it to block people doing that. That would be foolish though in my mind because providing better tools and letting people organize around their product would ultimately spur more interest and growth. Companies can get greedy though and fall on their own sword so its a risk for those under taking it. Keeping it in common language like PHP and Open Sources Database like MySQL would ensure that future developers can easily come along and maintain it though.

The way I see it, there is one heck of a third party opportunity someone could seiez out there. A $9.99 shareware tool would probably sell well since you have in theory millions of Trainz owners out there. Sell 1000 copies and you'd easily pay for it and have money to maintain it in the future.

Another way to work it is to have the tool indpentendly manage CDP files that can be imported into Content manager. This gets around the encryption worries and still allows users to manage all their content ect outside of Trainz and then just do a mass import any time they want to get it all pretty and clean again.

There are probably enough people out there that have the know how to pull it off, it may take the idea of it at least paying for itself to make it work.

If we have a rich trainz fan out there wanting to make their whole hobby around this better, then for a few thousand US dollars they can contract an offshore development company or other indpendent reliable PHP developer to do the work. I am happy to act as a consultant to that effort for free to help priovide the system requirements behind it or ideas. A strong trainz vet or two or 5 would be invaluable to help in that regard as well.

For fun, people might start spitting out their wish list and we can sort of design the requirements here and then see what comes of it. You only have a little time to loose. Someone may see these and say, heck yhea, I can code and make a buck off that easy and run with it. A java coder could also run with this as well and just about any other programmer.

E

knight42
December 17th, 2009, 02:45 PM
The biggest problem with the DLS is the lack of proper tags and attributes set by content creators. Virtually nothing has a region or era, and in some cases has completely the wrong category and/or no description. CMP is perfectly capable of filtering content, but when the content has nothing to filter, no amount of coding can get around that.

novastorm2000
December 17th, 2009, 03:02 PM
I think some coding and design for facilitating clean-up could greatly help the current situation and improve it in the future.

As a hobbiest community we really could create and define the noption of certified content and in a new tool have it manage it accordingly, either by filtering it and or actually helping facilitate updates to bad or missing data.

I think that people just have to want and or rally behind it, thats how good things will come to pass.

E

johnwhelan
December 17th, 2009, 03:11 PM
Someone can take ownership of it, pay for it and develop and sell a shareware desktop and web tool.

I imagine you could contract someone offshore or even locally to do the PHP development work for a few thousand US dollars. A tool like PHP with a MySQL Database would probably be the easiest in the long run. I am guessing this could even be done in MS Access or a Filemaker Pro tool as well, but distribution might be more expensive for users. MySQL and PHP are readily obtainable and someone could easily package a solution up into something that would install on to your local PC.

Basically its a matter of taking the exisiting Trainz DB and reverse engineering a solution that would allow management of that file using a new tool. Down side is that Auran could if its not already encrypt it to block people doing that. That would be foolish though in my mind because providing better tools and letting people organize around their product would ultimately spur more interest and growth. Companies can get greedy though and fall on their own sword so its a risk for those under taking it. Keeping it in common language like PHP and Open Sources Database like MySQL would ensure that future developers can easily come along and maintain it though.

The way I see it, there is one heck of a third party opportunity someone could seiez out there. A $9.99 shareware tool would probably sell well since you have in theory millions of Trainz owners out there. Sell 1000 copies and you'd easily pay for it and have money to maintain it in the future.

Another way to work it is to have the tool indpentendly manage CDP files that can be imported into Content manager. This gets around the encryption worries and still allows users to manage all their content ect outside of Trainz and then just do a mass import any time they want to get it all pretty and clean again.

There are probably enough people out there that have the know how to pull it off, it may take the idea of it at least paying for itself to make it work.

If we have a rich trainz fan out there wanting to make their whole hobby around this better, then for a few thousand US dollars they can contract an offshore development company or other indpendent reliable PHP developer to do the work. I am happy to act as a consultant to that effort for free to help priovide the system requirements behind it or ideas. A strong trainz vet or two or 5 would be invaluable to help in that regard as well.

For fun, people might start spitting out their wish list and we can sort of design the requirements here and then see what comes of it. You only have a little time to loose. Someone may see these and say, heck yhea, I can code and make a buck off that easy and run with it. A java coder could also run with this as well and just about any other programmer.

E

Strangely enough we have the programmers in the community to be able to do this. Unfortunately what we don't have is clean data on the DLS. We have a large number of routes that are set to TO, the default. It makes picking out the UK or other contries routes extremely difficult.

Other issues are hosting, do you use MySQL or would Microsoft SQL be cheaper? There are issues on cost of ownership. TARL unfortunately wasn't maintainable because of coding issues.

Shareware, I don't think it will happen. Sourceforge yes that is a possibility.

Cheerio John

aardvark1
December 17th, 2009, 03:23 PM
....snip.....

The way I see it, there is one heck of a third party opportunity someone could seiez out there. A $9.99 shareware tool would probably sell well since you have in theory millions of Trainz owners out there. Sell 1000 copies and you'd easily pay for it and have money to maintain it in the future

.....snip...
E

If you look at the bottom of the Forums home page, you will see the following data:

Members: 354,324, Active Members: 3,824

While it can be said that there may be a large number of Trainz owners who have not registered their copy of Trainz.... say for arguments sake, we double the 354,324, we get to just over 700,000 people.

So, your saying that there may be millions of Trainz owners out there may be an overstatement.

Can someone document the numbers and prove otherwise?

Thanks and have fun,:)

knight42
December 17th, 2009, 03:57 PM
I think some coding and design for facilitating clean-up could greatly help the current situation and improve it in the future.

How? The only answer is to go through each asset in the DLS and clean up its metadata - you can't program that, it's a manual task. You'd also need more access to the DLS data than we have in order to correct it, and Auran granting such access on an ad-hc basis would be a bad idea.

ldowns
December 17th, 2009, 04:01 PM
I understand that the DLS is akin to your hobby store, but it just seems clumsy in many regards. Auran itslf doesn't seem to do a lot with this either.

I think a more realistic view would be to imagine the DLS as a meeting place for a huge hobby club, with Auran providing the electricity and paying the rent out of dues (i.e., the cost of Trainz and a first class ticket). The rest is up to us.

The difference, that makes Trainz so much more than a model railroad club, is that we can share what we build as well as provide labor. If someone at a model railroad club handed me a station building, free of charge, and it turned out that it fell apart or lacked some prototypical detail I'd hardly assail the creator--after all, they provided it for free, and they didn't have to. Likewise, I wouldn't blame it on the party paying the rent (Auran). They have their hands full just trying to build a good enough creation platform to pay the bills and make enough of a return to justify the capital expended. If they sometimes make decisions that leave us unhappy, more often than not it's because they're following the expressed opinions of users on these forums. (I seem to remember people demanding to know why Auran hadn't incorporated SpeedTree into Trainz yet...)

Trainz is really a very small community. I still find it incredible that so much is available, at no more cost than my time and a few dollars for a FST. If something doesn't work and it takes me 15 minutes to fix it, it's my own decision whether it's worth it to me to spend that 15 minutes.

I don't mean this to be a rant. But I do think Auran deserve a great deal of credit for continuing to make and improve a product which is not exactly a path to riches for anyone, and our content creators for the sometimes unbelievable amount of work they expend to make an idea become reality (virtual though it may be). My own hoped-for pot at the end of the rainbow is when I retire in a year or two to have the time to start contributing things of my own to the DLS, as at least a token repayment to all of those who have done so already.

--Lamont

OzBoz
December 17th, 2009, 04:22 PM
The biggest problem with the DLS is the lack of proper tags and attributes set by content creators. Virtually nothing has a region or era, and in some cases has completely the wrong category and/or no description. CMP is perfectly capable of filtering content, but when the content has nothing to filter, no amount of coding can get around that.
It gets worse (or is that better) in 2010. Era and Class have been dropped from the map's config file, and each 2 letter region code has been replaced with it's own kuid.

Cheers

novastorm2000
December 17th, 2009, 04:38 PM
How? The only answer is to go through each asset in the DLS and clean up its metadata - you can't program that, it's a manual task. You'd also need more access to the DLS data than we have in order to correct it, and Auran granting such access on an ad-hc basis would be a bad idea.

I am not proposing we mess with or deal with the DLS, think of a DLS replacement if you will, a clean start, and new software around it that forces updates to assets or allows you to ignore or choose the way you deal with those assets.

novastorm2000
December 17th, 2009, 04:47 PM
I think a more realistic view would be to imagine the DLS as a meeting place for a huge hobby club, with Auran providing the electricity and paying the rent out of dues (i.e., the cost of Trainz and a first class ticket). The rest is up to us.
--Lamont

I do think of it exactly that way and just proposing that we have a non AURAN sponsored solution as well.



The difference, that makes Trainz so much more than a model railroad club, is that we can share what we build as well as provide labor. If someone at a model railroad club handed me a station building, free of charge, and it turned out that it fell apart or lacked some prototypical detail I'd hardly assail the creator--after all, they provided it for free, and they didn't have to. Likewise, I wouldn't blame it on the party paying the rent (Auran). They have their hands full just trying to build a good enough creation platform to pay the bills and make enough of a return to justify the capital expended. If they sometimes make decisions that leave us unhappy, more often than not it's because they're following the expressed opinions of users on these forums. (I seem to remember people demanding to know why Auran hadn't incorporated SpeedTree into Trainz yet...)
--Lamont

Whats wrong with another club with its own structure and benefits?
If anything it will benefit Auran, which BTW, is not a club or charity, it is a business with business goals and so in this club analogy they are open to feedback on the membership services they are providing no? I think any time you take peoples money you have to be open to feedback, thats just how it is and the responsibility with taking peoples money.



I don't mean this to be a rant. But I do think Auran deserve a great deal of credit for continuing to make and improve a product which is not exactly a path to riches for anyone, and our content creators for the sometimes unbelievable amount of work they expend to make an idea become reality (virtual though it may be). My own hoped-for pot at the end of the rainbow is when I retire in a year or two to have the time to start contributing things of my own to the DLS, as at least a token repayment to all of those who have done so already.
--Lamont

I think they make a great product and thats why we are all here just collaborating to make it even better and that ultimately means more profit for Auran and hopefully more versions and goodies for us as well.

This conversation is no different really than building a new route, or building, or any other asset if you think about it.

Peace!
E

johnwhelan
December 17th, 2009, 05:30 PM
I am not proposing we mess with or deal with the DLS, think of a DLS replacement if you will, a clean start, and new software around it that forces updates to assets or allows you to ignore or choose the way you deal with those assets.

And who is going to add the 100,000 assets available on the DLS. The current system where many creators have web sites that show their creations and often have a link to the DLS may not be perfect but it does work.

Cheerio John

clam1952
December 17th, 2009, 05:38 PM
I am not proposing we mess with or deal with the DLS, think of a DLS replacement if you will, a clean start, and new software around it that forces updates to assets or allows you to ignore or choose the way you deal with those assets.

I assume your software would still have to access the DLS as that's where most of the assets are? Physically moving them all or duplicating them would probably not be allowed by Auran unless they were overseeing it and possibly you may get dissent from some creators if their babies were moved to someothersite.com plus I guess Auran would then not be able approve new assets that were not passed through the DLS's checking system and you may end up with a lot more defective stuff FWIW.;)

The DLS is not the best organised system however it does work and is usable, if you take time out to work out how to get the best out of it.
As a relative newcomer to Trainz, been here just over 12 months, I did eventually work out how to find stuff old and new in English or one of the several other languages used, without having to ask for help other than using online translation, however I can see that it would possibly be totally confusing to some newcomers who may not have got the same amount of patience as some of us.
To be honest I don't find it very difficult to find anything now, just took practice, reminds a bit of some of the Shareware BBS's from days gone by, which in some cases, were incomprehensible with many files in the wrong categories or with the wrong description.

To my way of thinking, the only way of getting it sorted is for a group of like minded people to work with Auran to improve or replace it! I'll be available in two years and 10 months when I retire from full time work if it hasn't been done by then.;)

In my opinion perhaps if someone could come up with a better search engine as a front end for the DLS and sub divide some of the categories, which are far too broad, perhaps that might solve the problem, maybe Auran could talk to Google?

Dinorius_Redundicus
December 17th, 2009, 08:06 PM
I agree with you novastorm2000, it is a mess, but like every other time that grand solutions have been proposed, it will come to nothing. Watch this space for a few weeks and you will probably agree.

Auran must accept some share of the blame for continually changing the category tags from one release to the next and for not implementing a quality control mechanism, early in Trainz history, to ensure creators comply with the classification system. Creators too are at fault for not being very rigorous or consistent in the way they label their goods. Buildings categorised as 'vehicles' will defeat any attempt to sort and find things easily!

For my part, I re-configure every asset I download so they fall into some sort of self-invented classification system. Without that, I too could never find anything. But it only applies to stuff on my own computer, it doesn't address the deficiencies of the DLS.

I don't think 3rd party sites are the answer either. At least the DLS has the potential to be a one stop shop and at least Trainz is designed to interact automatically with it.

~ Deane

deeelare
December 17th, 2009, 08:32 PM
Simply my thoughts -

It all began with little or minimum requirements to uploading by Auran , I honestly believe they had little concern at the beginning . Today it would be a very time consuming task to correct , Auran does not have the staff and most likely the desire to correct . In the past , members have offered help in minimizing the problems , but it was not accepted . I am not criticizing Auran , it is simply a situation that should have been dealt with prior to it becoming almost unsurmountable .

A fix , it ain't gonna' happen ? --- ,DLR

novastorm2000
December 17th, 2009, 10:59 PM
I assume your software would still have to access the DLS as that's where most of the assets are?


First off, not my software and other than making a suggestion, I will be straight up in saying I'll do no more than write ideas here.

The concept in theory and thats all this is would read your existing assets and content from its current location, use information from the remote location to update the missing data, and create a file you could import back into Auran's content manager and fix all your issues.

The theory also is that such said software would have a more powerful interface, and that the supplemental data fields maintained on the online site would make organizing and managing content easier.

Stuff on the server would not be Aurans or anyone else's unless they checked it in and it met all the clean data criteria the group set forth. Unloaders would have to validate themselves and acknowledge they had permission and would be accountable in the event someone made a claim against such said content. Heck, the program could even make it so the actual assets were not housed on the server.. but this is all theory and someone has to want it and own it and yes, pay to have it developed in the absence of someone doing it for free.

Yes, great measures would have to be taken to keep it legal and to make sure content was clean and had all its meta data. You'd need to have an incentive and that would likely be allowing developers to sell their content and you'd need a review system to keep them and everyone else honest.

I am guessing I am not getting my point across that this whole effort requires nothing from Auran, not even their permission.

I agree though, this will never happen because A. nobody will seize the opportunity and B. I am of the belief that some here don't want to have it happen and would fight it.

Its the equivalent of someone using their favorite photo package to edit assets rather than paint shed. The assets are still on their computer, they just use a different tool to create and or edit in. You don't have to use the tools provided, all someone has to do is provide an alternative.

Whats required in my humble opinion is creative out of the box thinking to address the issue, and yes, I will already tell you, it will never be perfect.

Thanks for reading, I am going to let you all do or not do the rest and if someone is serious about it, they can contact me if they want ideas, ect.

E

JCitron
December 18th, 2009, 12:06 AM
E,

This as others have said has been brought up before. I complained like you did about the DLS mess when I first joined the forums in late 2004. The DLS was initially designed for far fewer assets than it contains and as a result it has grown way bigger, and I think faster than Auran anticpated.

In some ways the new way of accessing the data through CM/CMx has made the DLS obsolete. The problem now is to get the software to better recognize older content better, and improve the search capabilities within the program.

Eventually I think with every future release of CMx, the program has gotten better in its abilities to handle the vast amount of data out there, and its search capabilities is far superior to what it had in the beginning. When will it finally reach it's full potential is something that we hope will be soon, but given the small staff size at Auran, along with other projects with higher priorities, I don't think this will happen anytime real soon. The end result will be incremental changes in the right direction.

@Meatloaf. -- I wish it was 33-35 right now. We're freezing right now in New England with -13! It's supposed to be warmer on Saturday with highs around 0.

John

johnwhelan
December 18th, 2009, 07:12 AM
Stuff on the server would not be Aurans or anyone else's unless they checked it in and it met all the clean data criteria the group set forth.

Yes, great measures would have to be taken to keep it legal and to make sure content was clean and had all its meta data. You'd need to have an incentive and that would likely be allowing developers to sell their content and you'd need a review system to keep them and everyone else honest.

I am guessing I am not getting my point across that this whole effort requires nothing from Auran, not even their permission.

I agree though, this will never happen because A. nobody will seize the opportunity and B. I am of the belief that some here don't want to have it happen and would fight it.

Whats required in my humble opinion is creative out of the box thinking to address the issue, and yes, I will already tell you, it will never be perfect.

Thanks for reading, I am going to let you all do or not do the rest and if someone is serious about it, they can contact me if they want ideas, ect.

E

As a content creator I assume I would be responsible for creating error free content that was correct in the config.txt file ie a loco would be a loco and not a scenery item.

OK but that's a very big demand. It doesn't sound it but the requirements for error free shift over time. What was considered error free by content creators in TRS2004 no longer can be guaranteed to be error free by TS2010 standards. Many content creators are just so exhausted and pleased to get something appear in Trainz the extra effort to bring it up to your standards would defeat them.

Who would confirm if it was error free or not? How would this be done? People would be happy to pay for content? Given my tax bracket do I wish to be paid for content, knowing that puts me in the small business category and more likely to be audited for tax purposes? Now we are into the payware / freeware conversation. There are issues here, things like I have permission to use some textures for freeware but not for payware.

How do we address existing content that needs correcting but the content creator has died? or left Trainz, or has too much on the to do list to do the corrections you want in the time frame you want, or even doesn't believe there is anything wrong with their content. It runs in a version therefore it must be correct the messages about missing texture fires etc are irrelevant, I've actually come across this reaction.

These and the other issues need to be addressed for your idea to work. If they aren't addressed then the project fails. There are a lot of people who would like the project to succeed but having seen other attempts where the problems have been identified and not been overcome they are identifying problems early on.

Cheerio John

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 07:34 AM
As a content creator I assume I would be responsible for creating error free content that was correct in the config.txt file ie a loco would be a loco and not a scenery item.

Who would confirm if it was error free or not? How would this be done? People would be happy to pay for content? Given my tax bracket do I wish to be paid for content, knowing that puts me in the small business category and more likely to be audited for tax purposes? Now we are into the payware / freeware conversation. There are issues here, things like I have permission to use some textures for freeware but not for payware.

Cheerio John

The community would confirm content and controls [Filters & Options] would allow you to decide how to display and manage the older content and any data missing. Remember, since this is in theory software you run on your desktop, it will work with your existing content.

Maybe an analogy you can think of is CD Ripping software... it looks at the songs and then goes to a database online to get the names of them, artist info and artwork. People probably would have made all the same never will work comments about that software and look at it today, it works very well, but yes, not perfect. The longer a new CD is out there, the better the data gets as the program is designed to analyze multiple users feedback and zero in on the most accurate data updates.

In this theoretical model, the community and the power of numerous people do the work and the initial loading is done by reading the data in from existing content. In fact, most of the initial load would be fully automated leveraging all the already existing data. After that people just all work together to refine and improve it.

There is a way to deal with about 98% of the issues I have heard so far, and thats all part of listing and understanding the problems before designing and coding any software. I think if people could see and understand how cool the final software would be, they would be extremely excited and the state of Trainz would advance to new levels. People could also understand and trade content much easier as well. Really, this DB would not have to host or sell any content, just keep track of info and enrich it and then provide a more robust friendly user interface on peoples desktop.

Whats funny to me about all this feedback is if I worked for Auran and was writing about this as a new upcoming release or even add on tool, I bet people would be extremely excited about it.

All this is just discussion, its not meant to upset anyone and maybe if we capture it all here then someone will run with it, maybe even Auran. If not, we'll be no worse off. Think of it as your wish list for Content manager if you will.

Software is awesome in that it can be written to deal with many issues and provide many options.

Peace and Happy Holidays to all!
E

johnwhelan
December 18th, 2009, 09:38 AM
The community would confirm content and controls [Filters & Options] would allow you to decide how to display and manage the older content and any data missing. Remember, since this is in theory software you run on your desktop, it will work with your existing content. Maybe an analogy you can think of is CD Ripping software... it looks at the songs and then goes to a database online to get the names of them, artist info and artwork. People would have made all the same never will work comments about that software and look at it today, it works very well, but yes, not perfect.

in this theoretical model, the community and the power of numerous people do the work and the initial loading is done by reading the data in from existing content. There is a way to deal with about 98% of the issues I have heard so far, and thats all part of listing and understanding the problems before designing and coding any software. I think if people could see and understand how cool the final software would be, they would be extremely excited and the state of Trainz would advance to new levels. People could also understand and trade content much easier as well.


Software is awesome in that it can be written to deal with many issues and provide many options.

E

So essentially you are suggesting a bit of software that runs on my machine and modifies data in the TS2009/10 database. Interesting have you thought about TRS2004, TRS2006, TRS2007, TC1/2, or TC3 users? The data on the machine is held in different formats.

What happens if Auran change the format of their database? As an end user do I really want an uncertified non Auran bit of software modifying my database and possibly corrupting Trainz? Who would take the responsibility for ensuring things worked?

Another problem would be the database that holds the corrected data. Who would host it? TARL unfortunately wasn't robust enough. Look it up as it addressed many of the problems you are talking about but failed.

Finally what do you do to people who have customised their content in config.txt to add different products or eliminate performance robbing bits such as scripts etc? Set them back to your new default? Also there are some TRS2004 and TRS2006 differences on the way things are done. Which one do you go with?

The cleanest way is to clean up the DLS at source. We have the resources willing and able to do it but there are possible copyright issues that Auran seem reluctant to address but I think these need to be looked first before going ahead on anything.

Cheerio John

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 09:57 AM
The answer to these and every other challenge proposed is pretty much the 80/20 rule. Account for what you can in the design and accomodate the masses. It will never be a perfect solution for all. As Auran changes it will have to change as well. Its all part of the deal.

While I am not really sure about it, i have a hunch that as people updated their local installations Auran's DLS might benefit as well. In Fact, if Auran got smart about it, they would piggy back off it and siphon off the updates from the local installations and use that to improve DLS. Another scenario is that Auran just buys out the new software.

Most of the work on this is in these discussions and the design. The coding really won't be all that hard and if the design is layed out here in a discussion, Auran may just scoop up the ideas into DLS. Since I have no care as to who writes or profits from it, I am perfectly happy to dlush it all out here in public and let whoever wants to run with it do so.

Again, it will never satisfy everyone, it will never be perfect and it will have to adapt or it will go the same way as DLS which is why the whole conversation started.

Again, if Auran were proposing all this, I have a hunch nobody would really take issue with it except the 10% that it would do more bad than good for.

E

knight42
December 18th, 2009, 10:09 AM
Again, it will never satisfy everyone, it will never be perfect and it will have to adapt or it will go the same way as DLS which is why the whole conversation started.

Why not just let Auran make these modifications to DLS rather than fragment it, which is what your proposal would likely do.


Again, if Auran were proposing all this, I have a hunch nobody would really take issue with it except the 10% that it would do more bad than good for.

Auran have a roadmap for developing Trainz and the DLS, but your idea - while sound - requires a huge amount of work, infringement of Auran's intellectual property, access to their data which they are unlikely to provide, and frankly is just too vague. I'm a programmer and I could easily do what you propose, but it takes much more than this thread to design what you're proposing.

The best solution for correcting DLS problems would be a way for us to flag items in CMP as corrected and ready to upload - CMP can then upload them to a temporary store for merging into the DLS. Problems with this would be that one persons "correct" is another person's wrong - how to consolidate those differences.

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 10:40 AM
Why not just let Auran make these modifications to DLS rather than fragment it, which is what your proposal would likely do.



Auran have a roadmap for developing Trainz and the DLS, but your idea - while sound - requires a huge amount of work, infringement of Auran's intellectual property, access to their data which they are unlikely to provide, and frankly is just too vague. I'm a programmer and I could easily do what you propose, but it takes much more than this thread to design what you're proposing.

The best solution for correcting DLS problems would be a way for us to flag items in CMP as corrected and ready to upload - CMP can then upload them to a temporary store for merging into the DLS. Problems with this would be that one persons "correct" is another person's wrong - how to consolidate those differences.

See if you can get Auran to take all this on, it would be easier to update DLS, as for roadmaps, well..... I hate to be harsh, but why are we having this discussion and why is there a need and where has the roadmap addressed it?

As for IP, I do not think that anything I have proposed suggests violating their IP, in fact, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I have expressed concern for making it all very legal. I have also suggested that Auran leverage and benefit from it.

Again, this is all discussion and I am not sure where the rub comes from on it. My appologies if I am suggesting something bad here, I just want to see us all benefit, including Auran so they can keep making their product better and better.

If we have programmers out there, then why not just write it for them and offer it to them for free? I have no issue with that, again my only interest is having something better.

E

johnwhelan
December 18th, 2009, 11:59 AM
See if you can get Auran to take all this on, it would be easier to update DLS, as for roadmaps, well..... I hate to be harsh, but why are we having this discussion and why is there a need and where has the roadmap addressed it?

As for IP, I do not think that anything I have proposed suggests violating their IP, in fact, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I have expressed concern for making it all very legal. I have also suggested that Auran leverage and benefit from it.

Again, this is all discussion and I am not sure where the rub comes from on it. My appologies if I am suggesting something bad here, I just want to see us all benefit, including Auran so they can keep making their product better and better.

If we have programmers out there, then why not just write it for them and offer it to them for free? I have no issue with that, again my only interest is having something better.

E

The community has a number of good solid professional programmers around. The programming side isn't the problem, its defining a doable solution and that's the problem at the moment.

I totally agree with knight42's comments and I've seen too many software projects fail or be abandoned. If you can define the requirements in a way that can be successfully integrated into Trainz and programmed the programming will not be a problem. Trainz has a tradition of programmers writing add ons for Trainz and we can use sourceforge again to keep track of the source.

Some one has to come up with a workable solution first and its something we all want.

Cheerio John

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 12:11 PM
Some one has to come up with a workable solution first and its something we all want.

Cheerio John

The lets focus on what people want, I dount everyone will agree so again, I suggest the 80/20 rule.

A great way to get things rolling is to reverse engineer. So, to that end, I suggest some people draft of the mockups of the proposed user interfaces as a starting place. If someone does then in a tool like photoshop they can be updated and refined as ideas and feedback comes in.

Before the screen mock-ups its worth taking some time to focus on what is needed and write that out first. Once people agree a mockup is warranted you can start.

As we talk about what is needed and desired then the backend architecture requirements to support it will materialize as needs to support the needs and then we can talk about actual solutions and how to go about it all.

I suggest this all be approached as Donnate ware to Auran or Public Domain if they do not want it.

If you want results, people have to take action.. Yhea, I know, thats really a prolific statement, but heck, what else can be said and its true.

I suggest we forget about the politics and just begin documenting whats wanted.

E

knight42
December 18th, 2009, 12:25 PM
A great way to get things rolling is to reverse engineer.

That's exactly what I'm talking about - you can't just reverse engineer someone else's technology - it's not legal.


So, to that end, I suggest some people draft of the mockups of the proposed user interfaces as a starting place. If someone does then in a tool like photoshop they can be updated and refined as ideas and feedback comes in.

You need to work on data structures first - user interface follows on from the data.

handlaidtrack
December 18th, 2009, 12:44 PM
This topic has been on my mind constantly since I invested in Trainz2010. With the number of people who have commented on this most interesting thread, itís obvious that this topic is pretty hot within the Trainz community. I may be very new to Trainz, but I did spend nearly 20 years working in software design and development, before the advent of the Internet made me obsolete. Thus, I feel that I can add some value to this thread.

When I first discovered the state of the DLS, I was absolutely appalled, so much so, that I spent the first couple of days believing that I had completely wasted my money. I was on the verge of abandoning the whole program, but couldnít allow myself to throw away $50 that easily. If I had instead bought an earlier version on e-bay for $10 like I considered, it might have been a different story. Anyway, without even consciously working on it, I have a solution already formulated in my mind. I believe that a relatively minor overhaul could fix the problems, alleviating the need for the drastic surgery that some posts in this thread have suggested is necessary.

Those not technically inclined can skip the next few paragraphs. I include them because Iím really hoping that someone from Auran reads this and realizes that the solution is really not all that difficult. Although a full description would be inappropriate for this forum, here are some of the highlights of what I believe is required...

Visually, the object database needs to be in four sections, with objects being assigned to the relevant section by a database management program. Note that this is NOT four separate files, but simply an automatically applied designation of the object type. Iíll give names to the four areas according to the functions theyíll serve.
Assets: complete useable objects ready for surveyor, with all tags filled in, and no errors or missing dependencies (after all, the definition of an asset is something that has value, and an object with errors has no value).
Parts: sub-assemblies that are not useable on their own (things like bogeys, couplings, cab interiors, locomotive sounds, textures, etc).
Junkyard: anything that has errors or missing dependencies (an appropriate real-world parallel as junkyards are full of good stuff that needs work to make it useful).
New: where all new or repaired objects are posted, until the database manager assigns them to one of the other three sections.

The database manager would test everything it finds in the first two sections, reassigning broken objects to the junkyard; and the ďnewĒ section, to sort everything according to one of the other three categories. The logistics of when this should run can only be sensibly determined by someone at Auran with full knowledge of user distribution. To the user, it would be invisible. While all areas would be readable by users (think of them as list tags in the CM), creators would only be able to upload to ďnewĒ.
The benefits of this reorganization would include the following:
1) Users could search the database with confidence that whatever they find in the assets section will be useful.
2) Content creators would find all the parts they need already grouped for their convenience.
3) Complete tags would allow intelligent, concentrated searches of appropriate material (btw, I hear that the region and era tags are being dropped. This is a BAD idea. If itís true, we need to lobby Auran to reinstate them NOW, as objects used outside of the correct region or era tend to destroy all pretense of realism).
4) The junkyard would serve as a to-do list. Content creators could fix their own objects, or others with the ability could do it for them. Even if some creators choose not to correct their objects, their presence in the junkyard allows others to use or ignore them as they choose.

Perhaps the biggest advantage of this suggestion, is that the vast majority of the code required already exists in the CM. The CM already has the capability to test dependencies, check for errors, and find tags. What I am proposing simply adds a new control function that calls the existing functions in several slightly different combinations Ė it doesnít even need any front-end Ė just a command to run unattended on a given schedule. Any programmer with knowledge of the CM source code and Auranís development procedures, ought to be able to produce this in a couple of days Ė maybe a week with the various database changes necessary.

The other half of what we need, is some way of users being able to organize objects as they choose. The region and era tags are only a start. Even for multiple users activating identical searches, most likely they will all choose different assets to add to their routes. A bridge/building/widget/thingumy that one user considers to be ideal for his purposes, may be deemed unsuitable by another user creating a route based on the same prototype.
A very complex custom created index tree is one way to do this, but there is a far easier way of accomplishing the same results, reusing code that for the most part already exists in the Trainz programs. It needs a second description field that can be set by the user. When objects are first uploaded to the DLS, this field would be left blank for users to add all the keywords they deem relevant. The search window in surveyor would need a flag to choose whether to search the default item description, or the user-customizable description.
Auran please note: for this to be useful, the spinning icon shown in the surveyor object selection window, and the facility to change the user description, must be accessible from the same location. It would probably be simpler to edit the user description in surveyor, than to add the spinning icon to CM.

There has been much discussion on this thread about who is responsible for correcting this problem. Let me present my view on this...
The success of Trainz is largely the result of the additional content produced by users. We all benefit from this. Users have more choice than Auran can reasonably be expected to provide, and Auranís potential sales are greatly enhanced by user content being able to cater for a far wider range of interests.
The presence of the DLS, and the vast quantity of available objects, is blatantly used as a selling tool by Auran. There is nothing wrong with this, and they would be silly not to do so. The important point however, is how it is used. I recall during my initial research, that I was most impressed about being told of the ďmore than 100,000 assets available on the DLSĒ. The implication is of 100,000+ USEABLE assets. Supposing the sales blurb went something like this... ďThere are over 140,000 items on the DLS, but that number includes 20 or so separate parts necessary for every locomotive, so really there arenít that many, and everything is so disorganized, with so many missing dependencies, that youíll be frustrated to the brink of insanity when attempting to download anything usefulĒ. Would anyone buy Trainz? Ok, so this is a slight exaggeration and a rhetorical question, used simply as an illustration. With the user content being actively sold to new prospective customers, ensuring that this content is actually useable, is clearly the responsibility of Auran.
I think that if one were to discount all the broken, obsolete, and duplicate items (yesterday, I ended up using much of my 100MB allotment downloading what turned out to be multiple identical versions of the same bridge), there would be considerably fewer than 100,000 assets remaining on the DLS. This does not matter. Even 30,000 working categorized assets would beat the current mess.

It is my sincere hope that someone from Auran reads this with an open mind and a genuine desire to do something about a deficiency that even the most stubborn proponent of Trainz cannot deny exists.
I will even make the following offer... I will work with Auran's programmer, free of charge, to design and spec the changes necessary, and to test the changes as he goes. All they have to do is pay expenses (if any).
I would like to invite the Auran development team to contact me off-line with a PM to discuss these possibilities. In fact, Iíll be very disappointed if I donít get a PM, as then Iíll know that they donít care about the problem.

clam1952
December 18th, 2009, 01:02 PM
I would like to invite the Auran development team to contact me off-line with a PM to discuss these possibilities. In fact, I’ll be very disappointed if I don’t get a PM, as then I’ll know that they don’t care about the problem.

May have to wait until after Christmas for a response as they are shutting down for the holidays for two weeks. Judging by the announcement that looks like its from today.


Edit: Perhaps post idea this in the TrainzDev Forum as well?

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 01:19 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about - you can't just reverse engineer someone else's technology - it's not legal.

You need to work on data structures first - user interface follows on from the data.

Lets agree to disagree, a good design first considers what is wanted and needed and then the data is defined and organzied to support the requirements.

Reverse engineering Aurans DLS is not what I was referring to, I was referring to the concept of starting with the end result in mind and then working your way backwards to the solution to deliver the end vision.

This approach then allows for you to design something that is exapandable and more easily upgradeable.

Examples of such logic are the ability to add new data elements as the future evolves without bringing everyone to their knees or a standstill. This logic also accomodates reverse compatability for older versions and future new versions.

I do not believe any one persons vision should rule the day here. I also think we can approach it with the DLS as a base because all I am suggesting is brainstorming what we want and then how it might be delivered later.

Hope this helps make it a little clearer.

So, an example of starting to surface requirements would be as follows:

1.) The ability to see large, medium and small previews of assets.
2.) The ability to capture new data elements (Payware, Free, for example) This one would actually begin a list of specific new attributes that people would like to see.
3.) The ability to filter and dynamically manage attributes
4.) The ability to request new assets and view assets requests
5.) The ability to version assets (Support older and newer versions)
6.) A public interface to allow the updating of incomplete data elements
7.) A public Interface to rate assets
8.) A public utility to comment on assets

These are just crude examples to start people thinking. I suggest someone volunteer to capture these and every so often regurgiate them as an updated clean list so people can keep reviewing and adding.

The people can later debate the merit and feasability of each. perhaps a phased deliver might be in order where the very basic most popular wants are pursued in V1 with othe rfeatures to come in V2 through 10 if thats what ti takes.

E

knight42
December 18th, 2009, 01:29 PM
I would like to invite the Auran development team to contact me off-line with a PM to discuss these possibilities. In fact, Iíll be very disappointed if I donít get a PM, as then Iíll know that they donít care about the problem.

Or they think they can manage without your help.

johnwhelan
December 18th, 2009, 01:52 PM
Lets agree to disagree, a good design first considers what is wanted and needed and then the data is defined and organzied to support the requirements.

Reverse engineering Aurans DLS is not what I was referring to, I was referring to the concept of starting with the end result in mind and then working your way backwards to the solution to deliver the end vision.

This approach then allows for you to design something that is exapandable and more easily upgradeable.

Examples of such logic are the ability to add new data elements as the future evolves without bringing everyone to their knees or a standstill. This logic also accomodates reverse compatability for older versions and future new versions.

I do not believe any one persons vision should rule the day here. I also think we can approach it with the DLS as a base because all I am suggesting is brainstorming what we want and then how it might be delivered later.

Hope this helps make it a little clearer.

So, an example of starting to surface requirements would be as follows:

1.) The ability to see large, medium and small previews of assets.
2.) The ability to capture new data elements (Payware, Free, for example) This one would actually begin a list of specific new attributes that people would like to see.
3.) The ability to filter and dynamically manage attributes
4.) The ability to request new assets and view assets requests
5.) The ability to version assets (Support older and newer versions)
6.) A public interface to allow the updating of incomplete data elements
7.) A public Interface to rate assets
8.) A public utility to comment on assets

These are just crude examples to start people thinking. I suggest someone volunteer to capture these and every so often regurgiate them as an updated clean list so people can keep reviewing and adding.

The people can later debate the merit and feasability of each. perhaps a phased deliver might be in order where the very basic most popular wants are pursued in V1 with othe rfeatures to come in V2 through 10 if thats what ti takes.

E

"Lets agree to disagree, a good design first considers what is wanted and needed and then the data is defined and organzied to support the requirements." This only applies if you are a consultant being paid by the day, then I've seen them go in knowing that the system couldn't be built because of the constraints but what the heck the politicians want to show they are doing something so we'll sit around and get paid for a year or two before admitting it can't be done because of the constraints. To me a good design starts with asking what are the constraints then looks at what would be nice before coming up with a solution. Had a friend once who spent three years of his life building a routing system for trucks so they could be given their work in such a way as to minimise driving. Trouble was it took 26 hours to run for one truck on a mainframe not much good for a daily system.

I think you've entered the realm of fantasy just at requirement one. Who is going to do the screen shots of the assets to give three different sizes shots and then update the DLS? Ever notice that some assets on the DLS don't even have a single screenshot that shows the asset. I won't bother to address the others.

I'd love to see just a screenshot of everything on the DLS.

Sorry I was hoping for something more practical to come out of this.

You may get further talking to Auran on Trainzdev but I wouldn't hold your breath, there have been a number of other attempts that were less ambitious that are still waiting input from Auran.

Bye

Cheerio John

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 02:04 PM
I think you've entered the realm of fantasy just at requirement one. Who is going to do the screen shots of the assets to give three different sizes shots and then update the DLS? Ever notice that some assets on the DLS don't even have a single screenshot that shows the asset. I won't bother to address the others.

I'd love to see just a screenshot of everything on the DLS.

Sorry I was hoping for something more practical to come out of this.

You may get further talking to Auran on Trainzdev but I wouldn't hold your breath, there have been a number of other attempts that were less ambitious that are still waiting input from Auran.

Bye

Cheerio John

One screen shot can be used to accomodate all three previews.
Screenshots can be uploaded by community members
Selection of screenshots can be chosen by users or community administrators
Administrators can be volunteers or elected

These are just some ways these concerns can be addressed.

Let people who care do the work and they will do just that. If nobody does it, we are no worse off.

We can poke holes in this all day ... of course its going to take people to make change, and if nobody wants change then you get what you have.

If all this bothers people, just ignore it, and if something comes of it, you can reengage then or just complain about how it was delivered. Not sure what else to say other than yes, this is likely a waste of time and so if you feel that way, just ignore it. No offense intended in this at all.

E

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 02:19 PM
" This only applies if you are a consultant being paid by the day, then I've seen them go in knowing that the system couldn't be built because of the constraints but what the heck the politicians want to show they are doing something so we'll sit around and get paid for a year or two before admitting it can't be done because of the constraints.
Cheerio John

Problem with that is that we are not talking about consultants here, I thought people here in the community offered to do this out of the goodness of their heart for the benefit of all.

These cycles are iterative, so you start off with a pile of want and need, you rationalize it, then review it, update, review, ect then someone designs.

I have years of professional experience successfully orchestrating results based off these principals and one thing you learn is that there are two ways you can lead these things.

One is that its designed based on what users want and the other is based on what builders want and usually the builders end up happy in the second and the users unhappy because they really weren't considered.

Really good products are made by understanding what the users of it really want and then the engineers working to manage the reality and constraints of it into a design and final product.

Oh well, the reason it appears to me that this fails, is nobody really wants change enough to embrace it and help make it reality.

You can argue I am wrong, however this really is in my opinion a matter of either people bellying up to the counter and drive it to happen, or just cutting it down and trashing the ideas.

It appears to me that this is a very politically charged subject, looks like I walked into the middle of it.

So, lets slay the elephant that’s in the middle of this, what’s so wrong about wanting improvement?

You all decide!

Peace!
E

EdrickV
December 18th, 2009, 02:47 PM
Right off the bat even I can see a problem with this:
Junkyard: anything that has errors or missing dependencies (an appropriate real-world parallel as junkyards are full of good stuff that needs work to make it useful).

All content that uses stuff not on the DLS would end up in the junkyard. (For instance I saw some layouts in a search yesterday that use some payware assets. Waterfalls I think.) If the DLS was the only place to find Trainz stuff it would be different, but it's not.

Also people keep saying that the standards keep changing so an object that doesn't have errors in one version may have errors in another version. Just what standards would you use? If you used standards from say 2010, just how many of the older objects (say 2004 designed stuff) would actually show up as error free? If you applied the standards that were in use in the version the object was created for, then people using newer versions might still get errors and then complain about it.

As for the original idea, seems to me maintaining the database alone would be a full time job and the whole thing would be a money pit. I doubt you could get enough income to cover the operating costs, much less development and hardware.

As far as finding content on the DLS as it is, did you all know that there's a second set of options that shows up, on the website, once you actually start doing a search if you don't have pre-UTC versions selected? Not sure if all content has the required data to use those options, (much less has the data correct) but I know some do. And some of the categories are pretty specific. (Like depressed center flat car.)

johnwhelan
December 18th, 2009, 03:10 PM
I have years of professional expereince successfuly orchestrating results based off these prinicipals and one thing you learn is that there are two ways you can lead these things.

Really good products are made by understand what the users of it really want and then the engineers working to manage the reality and constraints of it into a design and final product.

Oh well, the reason it appears to me that this fails, is nobody really wants change enough to embrace it and help make it reallity.

So, lets slay the elephant thats in the middle of this, whats so wrong about wanting improvement?


The most successful systems come about by having good clear communications and understanding of the problem. At a professional level good communication is very important. The words in blue in your message distract from what you are trying to say.

You are confusing a desire for improvement with some thing that can be achieved. I think we are agreed about a desire for improvement.

Cheerio John

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 03:11 PM
Also people keep saying that the standards keep changing so an object that doesn't have errors in one version may have errors in another version. Just what standards would you use? If you used standards from say 2010, just how many of the older objects (say 2004 designed stuff) would actually show up as error free? If you applied the standards that were in use in the version the object was created for, then people using newer versions might still get errors and then complain about it.

As for the original idea, seems to me maintaining the database alone would be a full time job and the whole thing would be a money pit. I doubt you could get enough income to cover the operating costs, much less development and hardware.



The versioning requirement is meant to cover the use and existence of assets for different versions as well as the selectable filtering and attributes. I think what I was proposing is that the user decides by way of preferences what versions they want and what is or is not considered junk.

Money Pit? Hosting at GoDaddy is cheap, $8.95 US month gets you 20 MySQL databse uses and PHP server, Portal Software ect. One could pretty much host the thing for that, particularly if we are not trying to host the actual assets on the server or trying to become a DLS. The DLS can still be that if for example Auran did not take this upon themselves to fix and someone built the public database and desktop clients to manage data and information only outside DLS.

My guess is that if you hash this all out here and give Auran a better way to deal with it that ultimately they wouldn't want to let someone else do all this and they would do something themselves. Again, someone could always code and give it to Auran.

About administration, honestly, much could be done to make administration minimal and voulenteer based. Thats part of the reverse engineering work and thinking with the end in mind and stating up front you want the solution to be low overhead and easily maintained. Most people use a workflow and distribution to get a great number of people doing the heavy lifting. Anyone ever try SETI years ago, they used everyones PCs to do all the computing and simply wrote the software to run on peoples desktops and phone the data home! :) Torrents schemes are not at all unlike this as well and Auran could even move to that sort of concept with DLS. With some thinking and brainstorming, much could be done.

I have typed enough, I see this is not going anywhere so if you wanted this to go away, then perhaps you win.. people who want it are going to have to join in and be positive or see this die just as it apparently has happened over and over again.

E

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 03:17 PM
The most successful systems come about by having good clear communications and understanding of the problem. At a professional level good communication is very important. The words in blue in your message distract from what you are trying to say.

You are confusing a desire for improvement with some thing that can be achieved. I think we are agreed about a desire for improvement.

Cheerio John

My appologies for the typos! Sorry I am not perfect there and if typos are your concern, oh well, not much left to say I guess. (I fixed them all for you! :) sometimes my replies are done from a cell phone and so they get messy!

I still have not seen a problem that can not be resolved yet with detailed discussion and planning.

We can go on all day, poke holes, fill holes.. its still going to be a matter of people doing the work or abandoning it. If I had to bet, I am guessing that it will be abandoned.

Maybe this is why people set out to work BVE, I do not know.

How about you lead for awhile? :)

E

EdrickV
December 18th, 2009, 03:26 PM
The cheap hosting imposes transfer limits, unlimited plans are a bit more expensive. In any event I was talking more about this:



I imagine you could contract someone offshore or even locally to do the PHP development work for a few thousand US dollars. A tool like PHP with a MySQL Database would probably be the easiest in the long run. I am guessing this could even be done in MS Access or a Filemaker Pro tool as well, but distribution might be more expensive for users. MySQL and PHP are readily obtainable and someone could easily package a solution up into something that would install on to your local PC.


A "few thousand US dollars" is not so cheap.

In any event, I think the real issue with doing any plans like this is finding people to actually do the work. You can talk about theories till the cows come home, but if there's nobody to do the actual work then all you've got is a dream.

norfolksouthern37
December 18th, 2009, 03:39 PM
i think a majority of the files were not made right to begin with, not that the standards 'keep changing'.

novastorm2000
December 18th, 2009, 03:40 PM
In any event, I think the real issue with doing any plans like this is finding people to actually do the work. You can talk about theories till the cows come home, but if there's nobody to do the actual work then all you've got is a dream.

Cows appear to already be home!:o

Welcome everyone to your end result!

Effort expended = Little
Reward gained = Nothing

Naysayers Win!

The prize is! Drum Roll .............

Zippo!

:)
E

EdrickV
December 18th, 2009, 04:13 PM
i think a majority of the files were not made right to begin with, not that the standards 'keep changing'.

Some things I've read while waiting for my 2010 to arrive:
(From the asset error fixing guide for 2006)


Prior to TRS2006 the textures did not have to be the same size in pixels, but they do
now.

(Edit: Talking about alpha textures IIRC.)

From TrainzDev Wiki:


# All TS2009-version 3D models require normal maps (previously this was only supported on specific asset types)
# TS2009 ground textures require normal maps and are of a higher texture resolution.
Also I saw a post talking about "progressive" meshes not being supported (though the version of Trainz used wasn't mentioned, I assume it was a recent one) with a suggestion to use a LOD mesh instead. So from these examples, which I've found without even really looking into content creation, it looks like the standards do change from one version to another.

norfolksouthern37
December 18th, 2009, 04:52 PM
the 09 'requirements' were only for submitted items for release. you dont need either of those things just to make an asset now.

i would say that since TRS2004 things have been generally the same. all of that you mentioned has been in place since that version, the 'errors' that pop up now are usually because they crack down on what they accept. lots of malformed content has made its way in since then from people who made up their own scripts or config tags etc that do not conform to the standard. and they did this just because they were not told they shouldn't.

johnwhelan
December 18th, 2009, 05:06 PM
i think a majority of the files were not made right to begin with, not that the standards 'keep changing'.

It's a bit of both. Some methods change over time some errors were difficult to detect in earlier versions but TS2009 threw them up. Sometimes what was acceptable in previous versions ie no shadow suddenly become an error, or BlueStar couplings and icons for example.

Whatever the reason we have unclean data and normally for something like this step one is clean the data up and its step one we don't seem to be able to do.

Cheerio John

deeelare
December 18th, 2009, 08:04 PM
It's a bit of both. Some methods change over time some errors were difficult to detect in earlier versions but TS2009 threw them up. Sometimes what was acceptable in previous versions ie no shadow suddenly become an error, or BlueStar couplings and icons for example.
Whatever the reason we have unclean data and normally for something like this step one is clean the data up and its step one we don't seem to be able to do.
Cheerio John

John , I agree -

As I stated previously , the problems started at the beginning and were never addressed , now it is inconceivable to me , that there is the time and the manpower to set it right !

A fix , it ain't gonna' happen' -- Just my thoughts --- ,DLR

knight42
December 19th, 2009, 05:13 AM
Naysayers Win!

I think the word you're looking for is "realists."

Frankly you sound like a project manager, full of good ideas with no idea of how to implement them, or what is involved in doing so. You can't just throw together a php website and a database when the fundamental problem with the DLS is that of data quality. The programming adage "cr*p in, cr*p out" springs to mind - it doesn't matter what front end you put on it, the results are only as good as the data. In this case the data is not very good.

john259
December 19th, 2009, 05:37 AM
There are some things which could be done with Cron jobs:

1. Any asset on DLS which requires any dependencies which aren't available on DLS is automatically deleted from DLS.

2. Any asset on DLS with common errors in its config.txt file which can be automatically fixed using similar logic to that in Trainz Objectz has them fixed. This would only be the modern equivalent of a traditional human editor correcting spelling and typing mistakes, so copyright wouldn't be a concern.

3. Any asset on DLS which cannot be automatically fixed so as to work in TS2010 (native mode or compatibility mode) without any errors or warnings is automatically deleted.

The same needs to be done with all the built-in assets in the next TS2010 service pack.

John

knight42
December 19th, 2009, 05:48 AM
3. Any asset on DLS which cannot be automatically fixed so as to work in TS2010 (native mode or compatibility mode) without any errors or warnings is automatically deleted.

I think you'd annoy all the 2004, 2006, TC3 and 2009 users if you went and deleted all their content! You are correct, though, a great many problems could be fixed automatically.

john259
December 19th, 2009, 06:01 AM
As Trainz has got progressively worse at correcting asset errors itself on the fly, is not likely that most assets which work in TS10 will also work in previous versions?

John

knight42
December 19th, 2009, 08:14 AM
With the exception of assets that use newer features, yes, but there may be assets that can't be easily/automatically corrected for TS2010 that work fine in older versions.

john259
December 19th, 2009, 08:16 AM
Fair point. Pity, that complicates things :(

John

johnwhelan
December 19th, 2009, 08:38 AM
There are some things which could be done with Cron jobs:

1. Any asset on DLS which requires any dependencies which aren't available on DLS is automatically deleted from DLS.

2. Any asset on DLS with common errors in its config.txt file which can be automatically fixed using similar logic to that in Trainz Objectz has them fixed. This would only be the modern equivalent of a traditional human editor correcting spelling and typing mistakes, so copyright wouldn't be a concern.

3. Any asset on DLS which cannot be automatically fixed so as to work in TS2010 (native mode or compatibility mode) without any errors or warnings is automatically deleted.

The same needs to be done with all the built-in assets in the next TS2010 service pack.

John

Trouble is routes where one or two scenery items are not on the DLS. I like the approach but unfortunately it would mean dumping a lot of assets where the content creator is not available to do the fixes.

Cheerio John

john259
December 19th, 2009, 08:55 AM
Yes, good points but any solution would have to fully automated so as to avoid an astronomical amount of manual labour, and that almost certainly means it would have to be drastic.

John

novastorm2000
December 19th, 2009, 10:32 AM
I think the word you're looking for is "realists."

Frankly you sound like a project manager, full of good ideas with no idea of how to implement them, or what is involved in doing so. You can't just throw together a php website and a database when the fundamental problem with the DLS is that of data quality. The programming adage "cr*p in, cr*p out" springs to mind - it doesn't matter what front end you put on it, the results are only as good as the data. In this case the data is not very good.

Thats real helpful feedback and as for garbage in garbage out (GIGO), why do you think we are having this conversation. There is a huge difference between realist and pessimists, I see a lot of the latter here because everyone is focused on why it can't be fixed instead of what can be done to begin to fix it.

The problem with todays culture is that people expect instant gratification, so if any work is required or time to undo what has taken years to get messed up, then its just deemed as unrealistic, undoable, never will work.

There is nothing here that can't be fixed with time and effort and with more can do it attitude. If Auran fixed it in the next release there would be a lot of happy people.

Have you actually read what really being said here? A database effort focused on data cleansing and quality would be very doable and pretty easy to implement. Even a batch utility for users to utilize the improved data to cleanup their own local installs using the public asset data would not be all that hard and people could continue to use the Auran tools.

It really depends on what people want and are willing to do. Even just a database where people show all the correct information, assets, owners and compatibility would help people.

What is happening here in my humble opinion as it all to often does in forms is that egos and opinions without facts are ruling the day. People will insult each other and have no idea who each other are. Its the ugly side of forums rearing its ugly head because most people would never dare treat each other the way they do here when they have no real accountability for what they say and do.

So, as I said, at the end of all this, we have nothing and nobody doing anything on a topic that has obviously interested a lot of people because its a real problem.

Its kind of like complaining about a leak in a house and then chasing all the people away who would help you fix the leak and standing there saying it can never be fixed.

Peace Out!

E

martinvk
December 19th, 2009, 10:57 AM
...means it would have to be drastic.

John
I think it is the dumping part that is drastic. Perhaps downgrading to a lower version would also work. Even if the author claims it is for TS2010, if it only works in TC or TRS2006, or even TRS2004 for example, that is how it should be categorized. For those where the correct version can not be determined, create an unknown version with a suitable warning. :cool:

Because all previous Trainz versions are still being used, there is no need for every asset on the DLS to be compatible with only TS2010. In fact, simple but useful assets could be compatible with almost all versions so their announced version could be UTC but still be usable in TS2010.

What is needed on the DLS is a way to indicate that an older asset is compatible with a newer version of Trainz. Since the creator of the asset might not know this at the time of creation (either because the newer version is not released yet or because he doesn't have a newer version), a way needs to be found to retrofit older config files to show version compatibility or add a tag in the DLS sorting system to show this information. This way, everyone would know before downloading an asset if it is compatible with whatever version of Trainz they have, even if the asset was originally made for a previous version of Trainz.

john259
December 19th, 2009, 11:04 AM
Perhaps downgrading to a lower version would also work.
Excellent idea, but of course it would make the cleansing program rather more complex.

John

john259
December 19th, 2009, 11:07 AM
Even a batch utility for users to utilize the improved data to cleanup their own local installs using the public asset data would not be all that hard
Already done. For TRS2004 users the third-party Trainz Objectz utility automatically fixes a lot of the common errors in config.txt files. However, TRS2006 and later use a database asset management system which isn't compatible with Trainz Objectz.

John

knight42
December 19th, 2009, 11:25 AM
The problem with todays culture is that people expect instant gratification, so if any work is required or time to undo what has taken years to get messed up, then its just deemed as unrealistic, undoable, never will work.

It's not a case of instant gratification - we all want a fixed DLS, but we are not in a position to do it.


There is nothing here that can't be fixed with time and effort and with more can do it attitude. If Auran fixed it in the next release there would be a lot of happy people.

Have you actually read what really being said here? A database effort focused on data cleansing and quality would be very doable and pretty easy to implement. Even a batch utility for users to utilize the improved data to cleanup their own local installs using the public asset data would not be all that hard and people could continue to use the Auran tools.

You keep saying how easy it is to do what you are proposing, and we keep telling you it isn't. Blind optimism doesn't write software - we don't have Auran's database format, rights to upload corrected data, permission from content creators to modify assets, an official, complete specification for asset creation so we know what "correct" really means... the list goes on. And trying to create some kind of secondary database of correct information is going to fragment the DLS and confuse new users, who will see two sets of information for the same asset.


What is happening here in my humble opinion as it all to often does in forms is that egos and opinions without facts are ruling the day.

I'm sorry, but I think that's nonsense. I can't see how egos are involved, other than you ignoring whatever facts are given to you because you don't agree. You're displaying more ego than anyone, and your opinions are flying in the face of any facts you are given.

I've love a corrected, easily searchable DLS, but we are not in a position to provide it.

novastorm2000
December 19th, 2009, 12:15 PM
I've love a corrected, easily searchable DLS, but we are not in a position to provide it.

your not responding to what I am writing even.... And that's pretty much my point and all the more I'll say.

E

novastorm2000
December 19th, 2009, 12:17 PM
Already done. For TRS2004 users the third-party Trainz Objectz utility automatically fixes a lot of the common errors in config.txt files. However, TRS2006 and later use a database asset management system which isn't compatible with Trainz Objectz.

John

This is great, means that things can be done!

E

johnwhelan
December 19th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Yes, good points but any solution would have to fully automated so as to avoid an astronomical amount of manual labour, and that almost certainly means it would have to be drastic.

John

There is a team that has manually been through and corrected many of the DLS problems about 99.9% the issue is how to get these corrections into the DLS.

Cheerio John

johnwhelan
December 19th, 2009, 12:29 PM
The problem with todays culture is that people expect instant gratification, so if any work is required or time to undo what has taken years to get messed up, then its just deemed as unrealistic, undoable, never will work.

There is nothing here that can't be fixed with time and effort and with more can do it attitude. If Auran fixed it in the next release there would be a lot of happy people.

Have you actually read what really being said here? A database effort focused on data cleansing and quality would be very doable and pretty easy to implement. Even a batch utility for users to utilize the improved data to cleanup their own local installs using the public asset data would not be all that hard and people could continue to use the Auran tools.

It really depends on what people want and are willing to do. Even just a database where people show all the correct information, assets, owners and compatibility would help people.

What is happening here in my humble opinion as it all to often does in forms is that egos and opinions without facts are ruling the day. People will insult each other and have no idea who each other are. Its the ugly side of forums rearing its ugly head because most people would never dare treat each other the way they do here when they have no real accountability for what they say and do.

So, as I said, at the end of all this, we have nothing and nobody doing anything on a topic that has obviously interested a lot of people because its a real problem.

Its kind of like complaining about a leak in a house and then chasing all the people away who would help you fix the leak and standing there saying it can never be fixed.

Peace Out!

E

No there is a complete set of corrections done and already to be loaded. The problem is getting them into the DLS database. That is the bit we haven't found a way to do yet.

Cheerio John

knight42
December 19th, 2009, 01:35 PM
your not responding to what I am writing even.... And that's pretty much my point and all the more I'll say.

E

Yes I am - the solution you are providing is impractical and won't work; the solution is a corrected DLS, which we can't do. From the posts here we have corrected data which we can't do anything with. Some website separate from the DLS is not a practical solution.

And as you keep saying how much you're done but coming back anyway, I look forward to your next post of nebulous ideas.

JCitron
December 19th, 2009, 02:56 PM
I know I'm a bit late jumping in again into this thread. Instead of deleting the non-compliant items, how about moving them off-line for manual intervention?

I'm sure the number of "bad" assets will be far fewer once the automatic filters have had a chance to do their work. This would clean up the majority of the stupid errors that have crept into the configuration files over the years, and bring the majority of the assets up-to-date. I suppose this may have to be run a few times in order to process the variations in the errors. I've noticed that when there are errors produced by any creator, they tend to make the same error over multiple assets due to copying a base configuration file and then duplicating the error.

John

john259
December 19th, 2009, 03:18 PM
FWIW long ago I made a list here (http://www.johncletheroe.org/trainz/download/fix.htm) of the common errors in config.txt files that might cause trouble in TRS2004, and how to fix them.

John

JCitron
December 19th, 2009, 03:19 PM
FWIW long ago I made a list here (http://www.johncletheroe.org/trainz/download/fix.htm) of the common errors in config.txt files that might cause trouble in TRS2004, and how to fix them.

John

Thank you, John. This is very helpful. This information is just asl important today with the new versions of Trainz.

John

novastorm2000
December 19th, 2009, 04:10 PM
Yes I am - the solution you are providing is impractical and won't work; the solution is a corrected DLS, which we can't do. From the posts here we have corrected data which we can't do anything with. Some website separate from the DLS is not a practical solution.

And as you keep saying how much you're done but coming back anyway, I look forward to your next post of nebulous ideas.

And I look forward to your nonsensical responses! ;)

leeferr
December 19th, 2009, 05:43 PM
This entire exchange is nonsensical. All of the good intentions in the world isn't going to fix the DLS. I've been on these forums for over 3 years and this subject seems to pop up its head every few months with absolutely no solution. Theory isn't a solution. It would take a lot of time and effort and I don't know of any members here that have the inclination to expend the number of hours required on a hobby even if it could be done (and I don't believe that it could).

Mike

martinvk
December 19th, 2009, 11:22 PM
This is great, means that things can be done!

E
All that means is that TRS2004 did not use a closed database. It used the standard Windows folder system which could be easily accessed, modified and if you didn't know what you're doing, ... .

And besides, all changes were local. the original on the DLS would still have errors, no matter how well you cleaned your copy, and that is THE problem, cleaning the DLS content.

john259
December 20th, 2009, 01:47 AM
Indeed. Auran won't fix it (fair enough, they haven't got the resources), nor will they allow anyone else to fix it (no comment!). Therefore serious developers have to create their own asset repositories where all dependencies are available and everything has been fully tested.

John

Driver_Col
December 20th, 2009, 04:52 AM
Just throwing some additional comments into the debate (a TC3 perspective):

1. CMP/DLS shows and allows me to download stuff not made for TC3 - I really like that as it allows me to see locos that can easily be adapted to run in TC3.

2. DLS has items that have no picture - Not a problem. I download it and, if I don't like it, I can delete it.

3. DLS has items without a description - Not a problem. I download it and, if it is not what I expected, I can delete it.

4. Routes are often not accurately coded re origin / location - Not a problem. I have downloaded a number of routes that sounded UK but weren't ..... so I deleted them. On that note I have also downloaded a lot of legit UK routes and after viewing........ deleted them.

Of course I could go on much more but my point is that for all the shortcomings of DLS, I have not found anything yet that a little creativity and patience cannot overcome. I absolutely agree that there are many areas that could be improved but isn't that the analogy of life? Of course we should always recognize how simple it is to complain, especially when we are not contributing functionally to the solutions.

:)

Colin.

knight42
December 20th, 2009, 05:23 AM
And I look forward to your nonsensical responses! ;)

My responses are based on 25 years' experience - you might not understand them, but they are not nonsense.

I'm convinced you are a Project Manager.

amigacooke
December 20th, 2009, 05:28 AM
Indeed. Auran won't fix itHas this been established as fact or is this a speculative position?

john259
December 20th, 2009, 06:05 AM
Has this been established as fact or is this a speculative position?
Since there have been requests on this forum for it to be done for many years, and Auran's staff numbers are now minimal, I think we can take it as a fact.

Unless anyone from Auran wishes to comment, of course.

John

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 07:10 AM
To Novastorm and others who have been vocal, positive, negative or otherwise. it's an accepted fact that the DLS is a b****y shambles, but despite its inadequacies, it still coughs out gigabytes of data daily to the thousand or so hogs who insist on downloading every single asset. The first thing Auran must do to gain control of the DLS, is impose a daily download limit on all FCT holders to stop those hogs and give other FcT holders a fair and equal go.

As far as the other inadequacies of the DLS go, regarding search issues, images etc., I tried to have an open debate about that on this thread a couple of months back As with most things on these forums, the thread eventually dropped into the abyss:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=45572

I proposed a super simple and immediate solution to the problem you originaly discussing here for the umpteenth time.. That was to create a completely independent Asset Registry linked to each asset on the DLS.

For those of you who don't read so good, an Independant Asset Registry is NOT another DLS, nor would it ever be one. It is nothing more than a well organised database containing details and photos of assets, along with a link to the Asset on the DLS.

Such a database is not only possible. It already exists! Because I know many of you are too lazy to click on a link, here is a screenshot for some motorcycles produced by American Connections, who I might add, is the only person with enough energy amongst you all to actually take advantage of the database, which has now been in existence for almost ten months and promoted heavily in these forums:


http://trainzresources.com/directory/announcements/carter.jpg (http://trainzresources.com/directory/index.php?main_page=product_book_info&cPath=10_70_87&products_id=820)


You don't need to invest thousands, hire programmers or consultants, argue over whether MicrosoftSQL or MySQL is cheaper or better. The Inferstructure is already there, it's bulletproof, and it's been tested by almost 14,000 people almost 300,000 times. All it needs is input from the Asset Creators themselves. So why not invest all your ceasless energies and profound knowledge into getting them motivated istead of trying to come up with all these hairbrain schemes, which will all end up being totally ignored like the existing Independent Asset Register above.

The TRD has taken the first steps to becoming a Community project. It's now run by four people instead of one. That's only the start, but the way you lot are going, it may well soon be the end. Over the past ten months I've tried to motivate you in every way I know how. Too many of you are couch potatoes, full of great ideas and solutions as long as suckers like me put them into action and cop the blame if we screw up.

if it wasn't for the support of my three volunteers and some other important projects happening out there, I could easily pull the TRD from under your noses tomorrow and hardly anyone would even notice. It could be, and should be the largest and best Asset register and resource out there, but by leaving it up to you guys, it would struggle to survive, just like many other great Trainz projects you've turned your backs on. Wouldn't that be great! You could then start a thread entitled: "There, there, I told you so.", and fill the next ten pages with arguments over who predicted the TRD's demise first!

That's why the new team will be focusing on stuff that only involves positive and motivated people and not a mob of armchair gunnas. Many of the features of the TRD are about to be stripped and the almost totally failed Asset section you're waffling on about here as if it never existed, could be, and probably will be the first to go.

You see guys, the only way things ever happen is when people make them happen. All the waffle on the last three pages is getting nobody anywhere. The only winner here is me because I've gotten of my butt and done something. If each one of you turned your energy to talking to one Asset Creator you know and said, "I know how you can promote your asset properly", but still have it on the DLS, you would be actually doing something positive for your community. The Independent Asset Catalogue would begin to thrive, but then you'd have nothing to waffle about would you.

johnwhelan
December 20th, 2009, 07:12 AM
Has this been established as fact or is this a speculative position?

Shall we say that we are awaiting a response from Auran? Hopefully now that TS2010 is out they may have time to consider something.

I think a proposal to include an alternate corrected config.txt file with a slightly different name that you could configure TS2010 to use rather than the original config.txt file that came with the asset seemed the simplest approach to me. The DLS content would also be corrected to add in missing files etc.

Cheerio John

john259
December 20th, 2009, 08:15 AM
I don't abuse it so why should i be penalised.
The idea is that those who don't abuse it wouldn't get penalised.

John

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 09:13 AM
Guy's I'm sorry my post come across a bit heavy, but many of you I've come to know over the years and you'll realise that it's not you I'm having a go at.

As John259 stated, if you're not one of the abusers, you wouldn't be penalised.

In another thread yesterday at least one person admitted that he downloads everything, and then I guess he then decides what he will keep and what he won't. In the meantime, people on slightly slower connections or ones that are further away, can't get a foot in.

Surely 300 meg a day is reasonable? That's about 110 gig a year if my sums are right. That's not bad for $26 bucks. The thing is, it makes you think before you act, instead of acting before you think which is what many on the DLS do.

john259
December 20th, 2009, 09:14 AM
How does that work when you put in a restriction?
Free - very slow, very limited amount per day (as now).
FCT, normal usage level - full available speed.
FCT, abnormally high usage level over a period - warning, then impose a restriction on speed or amount.

It would be very similar to the fair bandwidth usage restrictions imposed on so-called "unlimited" accounts offered by many ISP's.

John

amigacooke
December 20th, 2009, 09:20 AM
You don't need to invest thousands, hire programmers or consultants, argue over whether MicrosoftSQL or MySQL is cheaper or better. The Inferstructure is already there, it's bulletproof, and it's been tested by almost 14,000 people almost 300,000 times. All it needs is input from the Asset Creators themselves. So why not invest all your ceasless energies and profound knowledge into getting them motivated istead of trying to come up with all these hairbrain schemes, which will all end up being totally ignored like the existing Independent Asset Register above.
I appreciate your frustrations, but hadn't TPR already tried this with the Download Depot and got pretty much the same result?

Boweavel
December 20th, 2009, 09:32 AM
Auran must accept some share of the blame for continually changing the category tags from one release to the next and for not implementing a quality control mechanism, early in Trainz history, to ensure creators comply with the classification system. Creators too are at fault for not being very rigorous or consistent in the way they label their goods. Buildings categorised as 'vehicles' will defeat any attempt to sort and find things easily!

Yes.. What he said!

Excellent employment oppurtunities for Goal Post Hole diggers at Auran. Allways requiring shifting....

They had plans for such things, but never stuck to them.

Oh the 'Fury' of it all..

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 09:37 AM
Hi amigacooke. I'm not sure if I can answer that. TPR seem to have a very strong userbase and from what the people I've spoken to tell me, they are very highly regarded. From what I can gather, TRP actually host routes that may have struck a problem with the DLS. One of my subscribers had no luck with the DLS, but he was finally accepted by TPR.

I have no desire to compete with the DLS or TPR, in fact my subscriber still promotes his route through the Directory and gets about 150 visitors a month to his TPR download site.

My argument is this: If you go to all the trouble of sharing an Asset or a Route, you should at least make an effort to promote it, especially when it doesn't cost you a cent. Dumping an item on the DLS and expecting people to find it, is like opening an icecream parlour and building a brick wall around it so that no one could see it.

I'll bet you 50 bucks, that if Auran said "We'll pay you 1 cent for every time your Asset is downloaded", people would be pleading with me to promote their products in the Directory. And I kid you not!

knight42
December 20th, 2009, 09:42 AM
The first thing Auran must do to gain control of the DLS, is impose a daily download limit on all FCT holders to stop those hogs and give other FcT holders a fair and equal go.

Absolutely not. I pay for a FCT without limits - if you start limiting what paid customers can do, they will stop paying and Auran lose income.

I don't understand how paying for a FCT makes one a "hog" when in reality it means you are subsidising the non-payers. A more logical approach would be to make the DLS FCT-only.


I proposed a super simple and immediate solution to the problem you originaly discussing here for the umpteenth time.. That was to create a completely independent Asset Registry linked to each asset on the DLS.

Which creates a fragmented and confusing DLS, IMO. And such a site being run/owned by a single person brings it's own problems. What happens when you can't pay your hosting bill, or the host goes bust, or you get fed up and leave? All that work disappears overnight.


So why not invest all your ceasless energies and profound knowledge into getting them motivated istead of trying to come up with all these hairbrain schemes, which will all end up being totally ignored like the existing Independent Asset Register above.

Frankly it's the job of the asset creators to do that, not my job to chase them.


The TRD has taken the first steps to becoming a Community project. It's now run by four people instead of one. That's only the start, but the way you lot are going, it may well soon be the end. Over the past ten months I've tried to motivate you in every way I know how. Too many of you are couch potatoes, full of great ideas and solutions as long as suckers like me put them into action and cop the blame if we screw up.

That's enormously unfair, IMO. You weren't forced into creating your website, and the "couch potatoes" bit is just insulting. You imply that people dream up ideas and expect you to implement them, which is patently not the case. If you want to run the site, fine, but don't criticise everyone else if it doesn't meet your expectations.


if it wasn't for the support of my three volunteers and some other important projects happening out there, I could easily pull the TRD from under your noses tomorrow and hardly anyone would even notice. It could be, and should be the largest and best Asset register and resource out there, but by leaving it up to you guys, it would struggle to survive, just like many other great Trainz projects you've turned your backs on. Wouldn't that be great! You could then start a thread entitled: "There, there, I told you so.", and fill the next ten pages with arguments over who predicted the TRD's demise first!

That's why the new team will be focusing on stuff that only involves positive and motivated people and not a mob of armchair gunnas. Many of the features of the TRD are about to be stripped and the almost totally failed Asset section you're waffling on about here as if it never existed, could be, and probably will be the first to go.

I've noticed that you often get angry and abusive when trying to "motivate" people to view and use your site, which puts me off. You've taken on the project yourself, and now you get angry because we're not doing enough to support it.

I go there, and if I see something useful I download it, but.... "mob of armchair gunnas?" Thanks. I'll be sure to visit again soon.

novastorm2000
December 20th, 2009, 09:44 AM
And so we see after all there is something already out there [not theory and pretty much what we discussed and worked towards in this conversation - not a DLS replacement, something that is publicly available, something people can update, something low cost, something that can be updated, and so on] (would have been nice to know earlier in the conversation) - ergo, things can be done when people take action!

If this solution can be made to bring the benefits down to the local desktop and or help people be smarter about DLS usage I think that would be great. I'll explore it myself, maybe it already does all that.

I wish more people would help, and I think people have to understand both ways that people have lives and so we make choices with regards to hobbies. I choose now not to let any hobby absorb me anymore and to focus on offering what knowledge I have here. [ I understand thats a couch potato role in many peoples minds and others might see it as having spent too much time some a silly hobby] I ask those that sit on either side of the fence be more tolerant and just keep positive and help as much as you feel right for your life.

All this is a strange mix of a commercial product that is under supported and people like the Johns here trying to augment and build on the current realities. Thats a reality in itself and just how things go and in many cases be it through Auran or people here its a lot more than many have around other products.

Mr Knight, not sure where I got sideways with you, my apologies for whatever it is I have said and done to make you mad and also for getting defensive in the end. No, I am not a Project Manager although I have done that before in my life along with many other roles.

Like the kind Johns, I have put myself forward in other hobbies and helped be a part of some really great things and thats in part what my experience is, stay positive, talk out the problems and then put a plan together.

I believe we do need to be more tolerant of each other though, there seems to be a little bit of don't try to talk about what you do not know here and my experience is that exclusion never amounts to much but an exclusive group of people. My advice if you want help with something is to scoop the new people in, offer them roles and make them a part of the solution rather than the problem. Some folks BTW have done this and privately solicited my help and thats been very positive and kudos to them for their leadership.

I am sure though for many veterans the whole things is beyond frustrating and that this way is hard to support any more! Its the irony of things that helping others is often very painful!

I think we all should be thankful though for those providing things we find of value and that those providing things manage expectations about people using and or finding them of value. There is a fine line there to be reconciled between expectations and reality. If you help someone in a way they don't expect, don't understand or don't want, its wrong in my opinion to expect them to be grateful. I think its better for those helping to expect nothing in return, not even gratitude and if one operates from that perspective, its much harder to be bothered.

I'd advise that people build on the things that have resulted from the thread, help those that are doing the heavy lifting if your life balance equation allows and we just move forward.

I guess my role in this was to surface the issue for the 50th time and confirm that what has already been built and appears despite the lack of support to be headed in the right direction. Thats good enough for this man, I do not have to accomplish more in this.

Yup, this really is the last post from me on this subject, regardless of who says what, so if you want to slam me, go right on ahead, you get free shots all you want.

If those doing the work want any ideas or advice, let me know, I do have a little bandwidth I would allocate.

My apologies to anyone offended again, and peace and happy holidays to all!

E

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 09:50 AM
Yes.. What he said!

Excellent employment oppurtunities for Goal Post Hole diggers at Auran. Allways requiring shifting....

They had plans for such things, but never stuck to them.

Oh the 'Fury' of it all..

Well Bowweavel, you can always put your hand up and volunteer. With a staff of around four, Auran is probably a bit busy to worry about such issues right now. On the other side of your computer screen, there's a very small team of volunteers working their butt's off to make Trainz much more enjoyable for you. They're not hard to find, you just need to make an effort to locate them and offer your services and not your wisdom. It's a bit like the Freemason's Lodge. They'll never ask for your help, you will have to offer it.

If I started to list the projects currently under way, and those on the drawing board, you'd probably call me a liar, but there's the them's that do and the them's that don't!

Unfortunately, the them's that don't stand out like neon signs.

leeferr
December 20th, 2009, 09:51 AM
JohnK
As I understand it, your assets page only links to the asset on the DLS. You may provide a good screenshot and description, but providing a link to the asset on the DLS doesn't repair any problems with the asset. Are you saying that you've performed all of the repairs that this thread has been talking about?
Mike

knight42
December 20th, 2009, 10:03 AM
Unfortunately, the them's that don't stand out like neon signs.

Again you slight the people that do not - or are unable to - do what you think they should. Working for the community is a voluntary effort, I believe, and not a requirement for owning Trainz. Earning a wage for my family comes first, otherwise I'd be glad to help.

Hats off to you for doing what you do, but I wish you would stop criticising those that do not join in.

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 10:10 AM
Knight42 I actually managed to find a sentence in your post worth responding to:

Snippet: Which creates a fragmented and confusing DLS, IMO. And such a site being run/owned by a single person brings it's own problems. What happens when you can't pay your hosting bill, or the host goes bust, or you get fed up and leave? All that work disappears overnight.

It just goes to show that my comment: "For those of you who don't read so good" wasn't wasted.

If I died tomorrow or my server went kaput tonight, all that lost work would only put more strain back on the DLS. Other than that life would go on as normal.

Novastorm, this thread only came up on my computer today, two days after it was started. I read the forums at least twice daily, but the thread wasn't there for me to read until I made my first post an hour ago. That happens regularly.

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 10:16 AM
Knight42, I'm not criticising those who don't join in because not everyone should be on the committee., I'm criticising the criticisers. The couch potatoes amongst us, the ones with a lot to say, but offer little else.

john259
December 20th, 2009, 10:31 AM
I didn't originate the proposal, but I agree with it and am therefore trying to explain how I think it might work. I haven't studied the small print - perhaps there's already a fair usage clause?

John

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 10:44 AM
I understand now. You propose a change of the "definition" of the current FCT.

Nobody is trying to change anything, I made the suggestion and John259 tends to support it. Even ISP's will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you gloat the system, which is there for all to share. There are people with high speed connections out there that download stuff 24/7 while others struggle to get anything at all. FCT or not. The DLS is abused by many. That's the beginning and end of it.

amigacooke
December 20th, 2009, 11:02 AM
My argument is this: If you go to all the trouble of sharing an Asset or a Route, you should at least make an effort to promote it, especially when it doesn't cost you a cent. Dumping an item on the DLS and expecting people to find it, is like opening an icecream parlour and building a brick wall around it so that no one could see it.

I'll bet you 50 bucks, that if Auran said "We'll pay you 1 cent for every time your Asset is downloaded", people would be pleading with me to promote their products in the Directory. And I kid you not!
My one asset, not very prolific I know, has according to my Auran profile been downloaded 76784 times. My only promotion was a thread on this forum. Perhaps people think that the number of extra prospective downloads off-DLS is just not worth the extra effort.

I would suggest that most creators enjoy the creation process and see the uploading and promotion as an inconvenient extra. However, I agree that if money was involved there would be more interest, but it isn't so there isn't. :)

amigacooke
December 20th, 2009, 11:06 AM
Knight42 I actually managed to find a sentence in your post worth responding to:This kind of condescension isn't going to win many friends.

amigacooke
December 20th, 2009, 11:16 AM
All this is a strange mix of a commercial product that is under supported Just as a comparison RS.com the developers of RailWorks do not provide a forum or file respository of their own. They leave that to their community.

Barry
December 20th, 2009, 11:34 AM
All far too complicated now for retired Trainz Mariners. I wonder what happened to the KISS principle. ...... If the rules and configurations alter with each new version what was error free may become with error. I can' t see how you can keep altering a program then expect all the content to read as error free if the programming makes it read with error. What is perhaps an error to one is perfect to another as simply depends on which versions you bought. I have no idea what the answer is and far as I can see there isn't one. Not idle talk by the way but based on my own content making experience in the past with Trainz as started with version, one many moons ago when life was simple and boats amd ships sailed on the moving seas of Trainz. B

clam1952
December 20th, 2009, 11:46 AM
Nobody is trying to change anything, I made the suggestion and John259 tends to support it. Even ISP's will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you gloat the system, which is there for all to share. There are people with high speed connections out there that download stuff 24/7 while others struggle to get anything at all. FCT or not. The DLS is abused by many. That's the beginning and end of it.

Anyone know how many Gigabytes of data there is on the DLS?

As well as the grab everything now users, I suspect some of the problems people have with downloading as in getting access and slow speed from the DLS, is not due to over use but Network problems, congestion or whatever between the User and the DLS.

Having said that I guess there must be those who try to download everything on the DLS, can't see the point though unless its a collecting fetish or something or bad housekeeping in not backing up and having a sloppily maintained PC, which causes Trainz to break thus requiring frequent reinstalls and downloads of everything again.;)

Whatever the reason, if someone is downloading gigabytes daily, then that is blatantly unfair. However restricting FCT to say 300MB a day is unfair on those who have paid for unlimited access and maybe only download infrequently and maybe download a route that requires an additional large number of assets as a one off.
I would say maybe a weekly or monthly limit would be more reasonable for normal usage and clobber the continual 24/7 users.

Alternatively, to take some of the weight off of the DLS and in view off the fact that it is only ever going to get bigger, perhaps Auran could take a leaf out of the Linux / Unix world and spread the load by setting up secure mirrors in various locations, downside to that is the probable cost which makes it extremely unlikely.

JCitron
December 20th, 2009, 11:52 AM
All far too complicated now for retired Trainz Mariners. I wonder what happened to the KISS principle. ...... If the rules and configurations alter with each new version what was error free may become with error. I can' t see how you can keep altering a program then expect all the content to read as error free if the programming makes it read with error. What is perhaps an error to one is perfect to another as simply depends on which versions you bought. I have no idea what the answer is and far as I can see there isn't one. Not idle talk by the way but based on my own content making experience in the past with Trainz as started with version, one many moons ago when life was simple and boats amd ships sailed on the moving seas of Trainz. B


Happy Holidays, Barry. I agree the KISS principles seem to be missing from this, and a lot of things these days. Even ordering junk food at a fast food restaurant has become overly an complicated process. I couldn't even order a large chocolate shake with a small hamburger because it wasn't available as an option!

A bit Off Topic, but you might find this link interesting. I tried sending you this link via email but you don't have an email address available. This is a local city to me, and actually where I am going to school. I've been made redundant, and went back to college as a music student. (A 360 degree above face from high tech).

http://home.comcast.net/~corey.sciuto/lowelltoc.htm

There are both power canals and navigational canals in this city along with a former branchline that is now home to a small streetcar line.

John

Barry
December 20th, 2009, 12:00 PM
Hi John and thanks for the link. Have a nice Christmas Holiday. Bit passed the studying age myself as been retired a few years, but wish you well with your music studies. Barry

knight42
December 20th, 2009, 01:55 PM
Knight42 I actually managed to find a sentence in your post worth responding to:

Thanks. Bye.

Johnk
December 20th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Anyone know how many Gigabytes of data there is on the DLS?


I could probably find out because I think I know someone who's actually got the lot of testing purposes.

I agree with many of the things you say, but I think all the issues with the DLS are purely a case of over demand. My figure of (say) xxx a day is purely hypothetical. As you say, if someone wants a route with hundreds of dependencies, they won't want to wait a month for it. Over the years, ISP's have struck this problem so regularly, limits and shaping have been bought in by most. Mine for example limits me to 5 gig a month, but cuts me off regularly to boot. In the old days, dialup ISP's made you reconnect after four hours. That stopped you setting up a download helper and going to bed for the might.

The word unlimited is pretty open for debate. In my case it would be a maximum of 500kb a day due to download speeds of around 15kb a second. Others in countries with better services may get megabytes a second, so downloading a couple of gig a day is nothing to them.

In another post amigacooke said he has a pretty average item on the DLS, but it's been downloaded 74,000 times. If it's as average as he suggests, the only reason it would be downloaded that many times is because it's being "grabbed" like most items on the DLS by people who grab anything and everything.

I personally think Auran has made a rod for their own back with an open slaver FCT, but they're probably thinking that things will slow down as the greedy users eventually get everything. I'd hate to think how much bandwidth they consume and it's possible that they already have mirrors or alternative servers to take up the slack, but something needs to be done to address the hundreds of complaints about the DLS that fill these forums monthly. For far too many, the service is diabolical.

amigacooke
December 20th, 2009, 04:42 PM
In another post amigacooke said he has a pretty average item on the DLS, but it's been downloaded 74,000 times. If it's as average as he suggests, the only reason it would be downloaded that many times is because it's being "grabbed" like most items on the DLS by people who grab anything and everything.Or possibly it has been used in a few popular routes and gets dowloaded as a dependancy.

Boweavel
December 21st, 2009, 05:31 AM
Well Boweavel, you can always put your hand up and volunteer.

I did for almost 5 years 'Help' as a Beta Tester, Ive seen what goes on in the back waters of Auran and I had enough, Was no longer a fun thing to play, Was just a chore to spend so much time getting things to work, dodging bugs, seeing CCG re-changed again and again, Promises made for the next great version only to see some pathetic excuse as to why it didnt make it in the next version.. (still using publishing deadlines as an excuse?)
Over the decade ive seen some excellent top notch folks like yourself, Offer idea's, have fixes for problems, come up with apps that make the whole thing easier... Many a dream has been created and barely ever has it been finished, Alot of Auran help has been offered to them and failed to show.. And then to add salt, Auran keep them out of the loop for the next version and change everything again! Now I havent been around for some years so maybe the Developers web site has changed those problems.

Ive been out of this 'game' for some years, delibratly! to get my love back for it and the community, I stayed away from the forums.. there was no need to be here for me. Ive given my finacial support to Auran over the decade for each and every version except classics 3, which i will get and now after my recent purchase of TRS2010 failing to even install, All my hopes that maybe.. Just maybe! Auran had got it right after 10 years.. Went spiraling down the drain.

So I popped back in the forum for a little advice, to see if there were any threads on the topic to fix my pain, I Noticed this thread, Caught Dinasaurs post and thought to myself "nothing changes around here"

Now.. to have you roast me as an armchair gunna.. 'Get' is one word i'd use and the 2nd word starts with an F, And I cant use it in this forum. I WORK for a living, 10 hours a day..6 days a week.. I PAY AURAN for a product THAT should be FINISHED.. so YES... I am an arm chair gunna because im paying these people who are 'Gunna' do it for me! To me the DLS IS part of that purchase price, It being a mess is just a black eye against Auran from any new user who has come into the DLS and found it a mess unlike so many other download sites for other games... that they may of come from.

I havent downloaded a single item in over 2 years and when i did it was allways a route or a loco and the rest of the items would be added as dependancies. I dont browse the DLS for a new seat, a great new track.. some pretty new car.. The way ive allways seen it, the DLS is for those people who have creations and want to share and need a single place to put them on to share, It might not be easy, it may have issues, but the item is their to find if you can. KUID search usually allways worked for me! And then if they want people to know of it they should create a post for it, With descriptions, Photo's etc... otherwise they may just want to put it there 'just so its there' and for no other reason.
That is how my stuff got on their, I created for myself first, then I'd place them on the DLS for others to share, Id create a forum post with photo's and links to the downloads and it was easy.. But Auran kept changing the configs and CCG, I had to keep re-uploading them version after version, pretty soon you get tired of it and just leave them at what ever the last update you made to them. I only have maybe 200 items so for those out there with alot more, I can imagine what a pain it must be.

Auran could of managed it from the start, kept it clean.. kept it right.. but somewhere along the way it got forgotten, and here we all are... Again.... Bickering

Years may of gone past since then, many people and idea's at Auran have changed So I bought TRS2010 with the hope of a new era for Trainz, But to have a roasting from someone trying to 'help the game' .. mate all you've done is made me NOT want to use your site simply on the principle of your attitude and shown me that nothing has changed in this forum.. Still alot of bitching and moaning and that all to familiar deafining silence from Auran. I'll stick with other games that work without error untill Auran send me a new TRS2010 disk and then I'll install it and see whats new, I havent used it regularly since 2004 edition so... Hopefully its alot!

But thanks to the info in this thread, I see nothing has changed and finding any new items is still going to be a problem. Downlaoding a new route is going to be a problem.. Finding dependancies is going to be a problem, finding erors and fixing them is going to be a rpoblem.. All i wanted to do is open a default map on a default install and play! but now seems 'Treez' is going to be a problem... Sigh

An old Trainz user and friend, someone else bitten by the hate that can go on around here, said to me last night... "My Condolances"... after id told him that id bought the new Trs2010... I laughed then, But now see what he means..

Goodluck in your quest!

Boweavel
December 21st, 2009, 05:39 AM
John, Just noticed that you to have been here since 2001 (thought name was familiar!) so Im just preaching to the choir really :) You should also know the fun and games that have gone on over the years.
Seriosuly, good luck with it, Maybe just chill a little towards the nay sayers and maybe more will want to help you :)

again.. Goodluck

Heres a little volunteering on my part for you...

http://trainzresources.com/directory/announcements/signature.jpg

amigacooke
December 21st, 2009, 07:10 AM
But thanks to the info in this thread, I see nothing has changed and finding any new items is still going to be a problem. Downlaoding a new route is going to be a problem.. Finding dependancies is going to be a problem, finding erors and fixing them is going to be a rpoblem.. All i wanted to do is open a default map on a default install and play! but now seems 'Treez' is going to be a problem... SighGood to see you posting again Bow.

I guess for some of us Trainz is always going to be a pleasure/pain balance with the latter driving us away, if only for a while. :)

johnwhelan
December 21st, 2009, 10:49 AM
I did for almost 5 years 'Help' as a Beta Tester, Ive seen what goes on in the back waters of Auran and I had enough, Was no longer a fun thing to play, Was just a chore to spend so much time getting things to work, dodging bugs, seeing CCG re-changed again and again, Promises made for the next great version only to see some pathetic excuse as to why it didnt make it in the next version.. (still using publishing deadlines as an excuse?)
Over the decade ive seen some excellent top notch folks like yourself, Offer idea's, have fixes for problems, come up with apps that make the whole thing easier... Many a dream has been created and barely ever has it been finished, Alot of Auran help has been offered to them and failed to show.. And then to add salt, Auran keep them out of the loop for the next version and change everything again! Now I havent been around for some years so maybe the Developers web site has changed those problems.

Ive been out of this 'game' for some years, delibratly! to get my love back for it and the community, I stayed away from the forums.. there was no need to be here for me. Ive given my finacial support to Auran over the decade for each and every version except classics 3, which i will get and now after my recent purchase of TRS2010 failing to even install, All my hopes that maybe.. Just maybe! Auran had got it right after 10 years.. Went spiraling down the drain.

So I popped back in the forum for a little advice, to see if there were any threads on the topic to fix my pain, I Noticed this thread, Caught Dinasaurs post and thought to myself "nothing changes around here"

Now.. to have you roast me as an armchair gunna.. 'Get' is one word i'd use and the 2nd word starts with an F, And I cant use it in this forum. I WORK for a living, 10 hours a day..6 days a week.. I PAY AURAN for a product THAT should be FINISHED.. so YES... I am an arm chair gunna because im paying these people who are 'Gunna' do it for me! To me the DLS IS part of that purchase price, It being a mess is just a black eye against Auran from any new user who has come into the DLS and found it a mess unlike so many other download sites for other games... that they may of come from.

I havent downloaded a single item in over 2 years and when i did it was allways a route or a loco and the rest of the items would be added as dependancies. I dont browse the DLS for a new seat, a great new track.. some pretty new car.. The way ive allways seen it, the DLS is for those people who have creations and want to share and need a single place to put them on to share, It might not be easy, it may have issues, but the item is their to find if you can. KUID search usually allways worked for me! And then if they want people to know of it they should create a post for it, With descriptions, Photo's etc... otherwise they may just want to put it there 'just so its there' and for no other reason.
That is how my stuff got on their, I created for myself first, then I'd place them on the DLS for others to share, Id create a forum post with photo's and links to the downloads and it was easy.. But Auran kept changing the configs and CCG, I had to keep re-uploading them version after version, pretty soon you get tired of it and just leave them at what ever the last update you made to them. I only have maybe 200 items so for those out there with alot more, I can imagine what a pain it must be.

Auran could of managed it from the start, kept it clean.. kept it right.. but somewhere along the way it got forgotten, and here we all are... Again.... Bickering

Years may of gone past since then, many people and idea's at Auran have changed So I bought TRS2010 with the hope of a new era for Trainz, But to have a roasting from someone trying to 'help the game' .. mate all you've done is made me NOT want to use your site simply on the principle of your attitude and shown me that nothing has changed in this forum.. Still alot of bitching and moaning and that all to familiar deafining silence from Auran. I'll stick with other games that work without error untill Auran send me a new TRS2010 disk and then I'll install it and see whats new, I havent used it regularly since 2004 edition so... Hopefully its alot!

But thanks to the info in this thread, I see nothing has changed and finding any new items is still going to be a problem. Downlaoding a new route is going to be a problem.. Finding dependancies is going to be a problem, finding erors and fixing them is going to be a rpoblem.. All i wanted to do is open a default map on a default install and play! but now seems 'Treez' is going to be a problem... Sigh

An old Trainz user and friend, someone else bitten by the hate that can go on around here, said to me last night... "My Condolances"... after id told him that id bought the new Trs2010... I laughed then, But now see what he means..

Goodluck in your quest!

Sometimes I wonder about the Trainz mixture of for profit and people creating for free.

The idea that I have to relearn the interface every time there is a new version is beginning to grate.

Given that much of the DLS is of a lower quality than one might like and these days you could create a virtual DLS on a torrent I wonder how far off we are from creating something totally open source starting from a clean bit of paper. We have TPR and one or two other forums, a lot of the recent stuff is available in Blender, and there are open source game engines available.

Cheerio John

amigacooke
December 21st, 2009, 02:19 PM
Given that much of the DLS is of a lower quality than one might like and these days you could create a virtual DLS on a torrent I wonder how far off we are from creating something totally open source starting from a clean bit of paper. We have TPR and one or two other forums, a lot of the recent stuff is available in Blender, and there are open source game engines available.

Cheerio John Looking forward to it, but not holding my breath. :)

Barry
December 21st, 2009, 03:24 PM
Sometimes I wonder about the Trainz mixture of for profit and people creating for free.

The idea that I have to relearn the interface every time there is a new version is beginning to grate.

Given that much of the DLS is of a lower quality than one might like and these days you could create a virtual DLS on a torrent I wonder how far off we are from creating something totally open source starting from a clean bit of paper. We have TPR and one or two other forums, a lot of the recent stuff is available in Blender, and there are open source game engines available.

Cheerio John

Hello John one is being worked on. Although initially it can read the msts1 files it eventually will be independant and stand on its own. You probably know the link anyway.

http://www.openrails.org/

B

johnwhelan
December 21st, 2009, 04:57 PM
Hello John one is being worked on. Although initially it can read the msts1 files it eventually will be independant and stand on its own. You probably know the link anyway.

http://www.openrails.org/

B

Looks like it might even do the trick, and no I hadn't come across it. Let's see if we can get some canal boats running smoothly on it.

Thanks John

Barry
December 21st, 2009, 05:10 PM
Looks like it might even do the trick, and no I hadn't come across it. Let's see if we can get some canal boats running smoothly on it.

Thanks John

Crossed my mind also but it could be a while before it a stand alone sim.
Managed a 15 mile route with the Blender Game engine using srtm2 with boats running but only made basic flat sheets for water and boats drivable on keel, but water moved up and down a few feet. Details of my efforts on ship forum uktrainsim , but too basic so deleted the lot

Better wish you a Happy Christmas before my post gets deleted.

Barry :)

johnwhelan
December 21st, 2009, 08:03 PM
Better wish you a Happy Christmas before my post gets deleted.

Barry :)

Merry Christmas to you to.

Cheerio John

EdrickV
December 22nd, 2009, 01:33 AM
Or possibly it has been used in a few popular routes and gets dowloaded as a dependancy.

Just happened to notice something while looking through the database in TRS 2010 and just had to mention it. Tewkesbury Cottage was used in ECML and thus is included in 2010. Now back to my irregularly scheduled problem solving.

amigacooke
December 22nd, 2009, 03:08 AM
Just happened to notice something while looking through the database in TRS 2010 and just had to mention it. Tewkesbury Cottage was used in ECML and thus is included in 2010. Now back to my irregularly scheduled problem solving. Thanks for that. I've never been so proud *sniff*.

I'd like to thank my Mom, Dad, Sister ....... ;)