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dracular55
September 11th, 2009, 01:27 PM
Hello. I just recently bought trainz. :)
I have started many of layouts, but what ever i do, i cannot get the track to seem 'realisitic'. :eek:

I was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers, or some layout plans. I want to make a industrial line. But i dont know where to start!

Also when 'painting' when painting at anything that doesnt run with the grid, the lines are never smooth, is there anyway to fix this, if so how?

Thankyou for your help :D :udrool:

tomurban
September 11th, 2009, 01:38 PM
Hello. I just recently bought trainz. :)
I have started many of layouts, but what ever i do, i cannot get the track to seem 'realisitic'. :eek:

I was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers, or some layout plans. I want to make a industrial line. But i dont know where to start!

Also when 'painting' when painting at anything that doesnt run with the grid, the lines are never smooth, is there anyway to fix this, if so how?

Thankyou for your help :D :udrool:

Welcome to TRAINZ. I think you need to read the "Surveyor" portion of the included Manual. That should answer most of your questions. It is chapter 10 in the TRS 2006 version.

dracular55
September 11th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Thanks. Ive done that already, but is there no way to make a perfect smooth edge?

And do you know any sites that have some nice layout plans?

aardvark1
September 11th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Hello. I just recently bought trainz. :)
I have started many of layouts, but what ever i do, i cannot get the track to seem 'realisitic'. :eek:

I was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers, or some layout plans. I want to make a industrial line. But i dont know where to start!

Also when 'painting' when painting at anything that doesnt run with the grid, the lines are never smooth, is there anyway to fix this, if so how?

Thankyou for your help :D :udrool:

Hi dracular55,

Welcome to the Trainz Community.

If you would be kind enough to tell us what version of Trainz you have purchased and installed...help will be available to you.

Regards,

dracular55
September 11th, 2009, 02:08 PM
I have trainz 2009 :D
Was kinda stupid for me to leave that out hehe

aardvark1
September 11th, 2009, 02:23 PM
I have trainz 2009 :D
Was kinda stupid for me to leave that out hehe

OK, thanks for that.

Next question, have you installed SP2 for TS2009?

Regards,

dracular55
September 11th, 2009, 02:29 PM
OK, thanks for that.

Next question, have you installed SP2 for TS2009?

Regards,

Yes I have :D

tomurban
September 11th, 2009, 02:31 PM
I don't have any experience with 2009 but here are a couple of thoughts. Do you have a 3D capable graphics card? If so, you may have to experiment with the slider for performance vs quality. Also experiment with the settings under options.

tomurban

dracular55
September 11th, 2009, 02:38 PM
I don't have any experience with 2009 but here are a couple of thoughts. Do you have a 3D capable graphics card? If so, you may have to experiment with the slider for performance vs quality. Also experiment with the settings under options.

tomurban

Yes i do have a 3d graphics card. I have the settings on quality, and still get fps of 100+ so that isnt really an issue. Thankyou for the suggestion though :D

john259
September 11th, 2009, 02:39 PM
I have started many of layouts, but what ever i do, i cannot get the track to seem 'realisitic'.
This (http://www.johncletheroe.org/rbrtv/rbrtv_tutsur_1_hi.wmv) might help. It's a WMV video (2.3MB) which explains how to make a straight junction.

I want to make a industrial line. But i dont know where to start!
There's a flowchart in the manual which shows the relations between industries and products, for example forestries produce logs which can be taken to lumber mills and seaports. Is that the sort of information you're after?

Also when 'painting' when painting at anything that doesnt run with the grid, the lines are never smooth, is there anyway to fix this, if so how?
Have you tried adjusting the dial so as to apply a texture with a small radius brush?

Keep asking questions, there's a lot to learn with Trainz.

HTH, John

dracular55
September 11th, 2009, 02:53 PM
This (http://www.johncletheroe.org/rbrtv/rbrtv_tutsur_1_hi.wmv) might help. It's a WMV video (2.3MB) which explains how to make a straight junction.
I learned something from that video. Is there a link to any more?


There's a flowchart in the manual which shows the relations between industries and products, for example forestries produce logs which can be taken to lumber mills and seaports. Is that the sort of information you're after?
The sort of help i am looking for, is how do i make the layout seem realistic. I have found many pictures, which do help. But a picture of there layout, what can help influence me, so I can alter it to my own needs. If you see where I am comming from.


Have you tried adjusting the dial so as to apply a texture with a small radius brush?
Yes I have tried that. Ill try and show you what i mean

This is how the paint goes parraell to the grid ___________________ in a straight line.

Say i go at a40 degree angle to the grid, it is more like this /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ , maybe not that extreme, but if you get the idea?

john259
September 11th, 2009, 02:59 PM
I learned something from that video. Is there a link to any more?
Yes, here (http://www.johncletheroe.org/rbrtv/index.htm). All of them were made a few years ago by Greg Furlong who founded the Razorback. You might also want to try Chuck Brite's Midwest Central (http://trains.0catch.com/tutorial.html) web site which has some excellent hints on Surveyor.

Sorry I can't offer much advice for your other points. Someone else will though I'm sure.

John

dracular55
September 11th, 2009, 03:04 PM
Yes, here (http://www.johncletheroe.org/rbrtv/index.htm). All of them were made a few years ago by Greg Furlong who founded the Razorback. You might also want to try Chuck Brite's Midwest Central (http://trains.0catch.com/tutorial.html) web site which has some excellent hints on Surveyor.

Sorry I can't offer much advice for your other points. Someone else will though I'm sure.

John

Thankyou, looking through them now :D

Dermmy
September 11th, 2009, 03:34 PM
... is there no way to make a perfect smooth edge?

If you mean when applying ground textures, then basically 'No'.

The minimum texture size is locked to the grid size. You can get a stright-ish line along the grid, but always a sawtooth edge across the grid. Blending lighter and darker shades can minimize the impact. Use a fence or some other linear object/spline to fool the eye into seeing a straight line. Use grass/trees/shrubs in moderation to disguise the sawtooth. Always rotate textures - '[' and ']' keys - when applying ground textures, if you don't then the line between adjoining textures will be more obvious....

Andy ;)

cascaderailroad
September 11th, 2009, 03:39 PM
My best advice is to start a layout on a flat baseboard, with level trackage, no gradients.

Practice laying track...an "S" curve: a R hand curve is connected to a straight track, never dirrectly to another L hand curve. There is always a straight section between opposing curves, typically a 40' boxcar length or even greater.

A proper curve is made up of several segments, or spline points. If you make a circle with a spline point at the positions N, E, S, and W of a compass...4 spline pionts are not enough for a full circle...as it will not be truely round...it wil be an elipse...not a radius. A full circle of track would have @ 16 or more spline points.

"FT 15 Degree 250 M Radius" fixed track can be used as a guide, as can a "Radius Gauge", for laying mainline curves. Too tight 90 degree curves, that are kinked or bent, a real locomotive would never be able to go around the curve, it would derail. Some narrow gauge and switching lines used much tighter track radius like that of "FT 15 Degree 90 M Radius" or much tighter.

Turnouts and complex yards are tougher to explain. Switch leads always needs to be straight track (straighten it). Don't make switches too rediculously short and too tight, as they will be unprototypical. A typical two track, 2 switch crossover is @ 4 boxcars long, or even longer.

As to track...MP Wood & MP Rusty are the norm, as they look pretty well detailed. There are hundereds of other high detailed tracks, the higher poly tracks are spectacular looking. But framerates are severly affected by using these high poly tracks. My favorite so far is "WRRW T2A Dark Ballast"-"by Slavedriver" found on USLW. My second favorite tracks are "VMD-US Mainline Old/Dark". The Greenery has dozens of great looking tracks also.

Modern mainlines ONLY use concrete ties, but all really old mainlines and branchlines generally use all wooden ties.

I use the US style "MB Quad" as a tracklaying guide, as it makes multitracked yards and mainlines with overlapping spline points, resembling a figure"8", as the ballast of the adjaceint tracks are touching each other. At a much later date, after I am fully satisfied with my track arraingements, I delete the MB Quad straight sections, and replace them with the track of my own choice (and straighten it). I hate wide spaced track. RR's had precious little narrow real estate to lay track on, rarely did they lay tracks spread out all over creation. Yard tracks should almost sideswipe freightcars passing eachother. Most real prototype yards have little or no clearance for RR workers to walk beteen standing cuts of cars, it is really tight and congested in real life.

Painting textures on the ground or over rocks, should be mottled, by using many, many overlapping different colored textures, applied with many, many gentle light taps on the mouse button. Never did a RR ever lay track across a one color, golf course green field ! Texturng is an art.

Do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall ? Pactice, practice, practice...

dracular55
September 12th, 2009, 04:07 AM
Thankyou for the above to roads. Ive been testing around with those ideas, and theyve been a great help!
Now just for some layout plans, I think ill go ask on the surveyour bit aswell :)

mjolnir
September 12th, 2009, 08:56 AM
Hello. I just recently bought trainz. :)
I have started many of layouts, but what ever i do, i cannot get the track to seem 'realisitic'. :eek:

I was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers, or some layout plans. I want to make a industrial line. But i dont know where to start!

The first question to answer is what kind of line you want to build. Are you looking to build a typical "model railroad" style line, or a line which operates more like the prototype? From a design standpoint, most railroads which have a loop structure are based upon a model railroad operating philosophy; railroads based upon a prototype operating philosophy will generally not have loop, at least not as part of the overall operational structure.

Well, when I start, the first thing I try to do is to decide where, and what kind of line I want to build. By where I mean, what part of the country, (Northeast, Midwest, Southeast, Northwest) and the nature of the area. Do you want to build a railroad serving manufacturing businesses in an urban area, or one serving areas which produce raw materials like lumber and other forest products, or grain, or mined products like coal or ore? Do you you have a favorite type of railroad car; a favorite railroad, a favorite kind of engine? Answering these questions can help you better decide where to start. For example, consider coal mining. Coal mining is done in the Appalachians, the Rockies, the Powder River basin area of Wyoming, and Southern Illinois, and the terrain in each area is different from the terrain in each of the others. This is important because it affects such factors as what kind of locomotives your railroad will need, and how much power will be needed to move a ton of coal from the mine to the end of the railroad. A railroad serving a manufacturing and industrial area in an urban setting will have a different look and feel than a railroad serving substantially similar types of facilities in a more rural setting. The urban setting will be more compact, and have a greater developed density, that is, the same amount of business will be done in less space than in a rural setting.

Another tip: start small. There are short railroad lines which serve only a single industry, and which are short enough to fit in just a boards or two. I'd guess that someone new to railroads would be more likely to complete a route that comprises just a board or two than a larger one, and since a small route will be finished more quickly, the level of satisfaction will be greater.

One thing to keep in mind from the very beginning of planning a route. Once you've started the route, it is not presently possible to turn it, so what is North at the beginning will always be North, and if you decide that you'd prefer that what is now North was instead of West, you'll have to start from scratch.




Also when 'painting' when painting at anything that doesnt run with the grid, the lines are never smooth, is there anyway to fix this, if so how?

When I do a route, I do it in a little different order than Auran. The first thing I do is answer the questions above--where the route is, and why it exists. If I don't already know the area in which I want to build the route, and I'm not modeling an exact line, I spend a bit of time looking at photos and maps of the area that I have decided to build, to get a feel for the typical terrain. Then I start thinking about the kind of views I want to see when operating the route, or while watching it operate.

Having done that, I get a rough idea of the terrain, including where the rivers and streams will be. Then I consider approximately where some of the businesses will be, based upon the terrain. For example, while there are mines in relatively flat areas, most mining occurs in rougher terrain. In terms of agriculture, plant based products (grain, &c) are more common from less rugged areas, while more rugged areas frequently are areas where one finds animal husbandry. Business which need power were in olden times frequently found in the vicinity of water, which could be used to power mills, and successors to the early mills were often built in proximity to the earlier versions.

When I have a sense of the terrain, and the location of early businesses, then I think about how and where the railroad would have been built to serve those industries at the time the railroad was built. Given an industry in a specific place, the railroad built in 1880 to serve that industry will be built differently than the railroad built to serve the exact same industry in the same place which was constructed in 1915, which in turn would be different from the railroad built in 1950, which was different than the railroad constructed in 1985, the differences stemming from the size of the equipment, and the ability of human engineering to build the line. The line which in 1880 might have wound along a contour, with several bridges, in 1915 might have gone through a tunnel on a more direct route; in 1950 the line might have gone through a different routing, and instead of a tunnel, have been built through a cut. The surveryors and engineers building the line in 1985 would have used different alignments to account for larger equipment in regular use than the alignments their predecessors would have used to serve the same businesses in earlier years.

When I have a sense of the terrain, rivers, and early businesses, then I begin to determine where later arrivals would have arranged themselves. Early towns and villages would have tended to be located where railroads crossed railroads, or where railroads crossed rivers. And roads and highways tended to be build radiating from villages. When I have gotten to this point, then I am ready to actually start building the route.

I do this a bit different than what the manual advocates, in that I locate things based upon the rough order I outline above. I will sometimes reverse engineer the terrain, using a reasoning process of "I want this industry here, but I want this scene, so what geographical features might have caused the railroad to be built in this way", and then building the terrain to justify the look I want.

While Auran advocates painting texture early, I have a substantial amount of other items in the route before I seriously begin painting ground texture. But here's a key to ground texturing: in producing the completed scene, Auran applies the texture in the scene at about the point at which they add it in the process they advocate, so that first the terrain is built, and then the ground texture is applies. But the other items--buildings, roads, and track are placed after the ground texture, and the ground texture does not show through. You can use this to your advantage. You want a sharp delineation between textures? Hide the overspray with something--a road, or a length of track, or a line of buildings. Do it this way, and people won't be able to see that there the border between the textures on either side aren't a sharp line, because the road (or whatever) hides it. Course some things hide better than others, and part of the fun (in my view anyway) of building a route is learning which things work and which don't.

Finally, I suspect that a lot of the routes you see on the DLS, and in other places are collaborations, in part because different people have different strengths. You might want to see if there is anyone who would like to collaborate with you on an industrial line. The two worst things that can happen if you ask, are that no one will answer, and that everyone will say no. On the other hand, you might get a team of respondents who become friends, and the group of you might put together the Next Great Route.

ns

john259
September 12th, 2009, 09:27 AM
mjolnir,

Wow, excellent post! Thanks,

John

dracular55
September 12th, 2009, 09:53 AM
mjolnir,
Thankyou very much!
Very good post.

I think now I have a rough idea of what I intend to do.

I live in the UK, but I have decided to make a fictional route, not set anywhere specific. Im just gonna start, by having several baseboards going out. It is going to be an industry route, firstly starting with coal. At one end will be the mine, then at the other end will be the power plant. And in the middle will be a reasonably sized yard.

I'm going to try and have the mine in a hilly area, what will give me something to experiment with, because i generally am not that good at it, so will give me some practice. Then it will go through a desert, till it reaches its destination, a built up area on the outskirts of a city.

Im going to leave room for expansion, and since starting it, ive got a rough layout of a yard, and 5 baseboards ot track going through, going over roads, and anouther railway what will be used to expand the track at a later point (:

If nyone has any suggestions, and/or tips for making mountain areas, they would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance!
P.S i will upload some photos soon of what i have already done

dracular55
September 12th, 2009, 10:48 AM
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/dracular4/Screen_003.jpg

This is the first crossing that ive done on main line, just a small rea for travellers passing through to stop.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/dracular4/Screen_005.jpg

[Ihttp://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/dracular4/Screen_006.jpg

Main layout for a yard, got a loop around so trains can drop of freight and go straight through. needs some changing.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/dracular4/Screen_004.jpg the first thing i did, shows mani line going over anouther line.

If you can see anything i can add to improve please say (:

cascaderailroad
September 12th, 2009, 05:11 PM
All switch leads need to have straight track, or they look like a sharp "Y"...add another spline point right before the switch, and straighten the switch lead in.

mjolnir
September 12th, 2009, 06:37 PM
mjolnir,
Thankyou very much!
Very good post.

I think now I have a rough idea of what I intend to do.

I live in the UK, but I have decided to make a fictional route, not set anywhere specific.

Since, on your route, you are General Operations Director [Title chosen because of the initials], you can certainly do this if you choose. However, (in my view) even a fictional route needs to be a bit more grounded. Railroading, both specific customs (like running on the left of two adjoining tracks instead of the right), engineering practices (coupler designs), and more general engineering (the general look of a bridge in the UK is different from a bridge in similar circumstances in other parts of the world; and many lines in the UK that are double tracked, in the US are only single tracked), and the look of rolling stock and highway vehicles, and to some extent (though perhaps less today than was once the case), the costumes on your virtual employees and passengers.


Im just gonna start, by having several baseboards going out. It is going to be an industry route, firstly starting with coal. At one end will be the mine, then at the other end will be the power plant. And in the middle will be a reasonably sized yard.You didn't ask, but if you had, I'd have suggested doing this as three different routes, doing the mine the first, the powerplant next, and the yard last. If I were building these in the US, I'd have the mine and power plant on branches from a main track, with the yard (or perhaps eventually more than one) in between. And I would make a reminder here of my comment that once you have decided where North is, it will forever be there; if you change your mind, and decide you'd really rather have North be West, well, in real life you can't turn a mountain just because you want to either.

Of course, you may want to extend the principle, too. Make your first route a couple of boards that contain a bit of the main line, and the junction. Then do the few boards containing the mine, and the approach to it, and finally, connect the two separate routes into a third by adding however intervenient boards as you wish. Same way with the power plant: do the junction as one route, the actual power plant as a second, and then later, figure out how far apart they are, do the intervening boards, and merge them into one. This is the best anitdote I know of in Trainz for the "If I knew then what I know now" affliction.


If nyone has any suggestions, and/or tips for making mountain areas, they would be greatly appreciated. Go to the library, perhaps even to the children's department, and ask for an book on basic geology, and inform yourself as to how mountains may have been made and the forces that made them look the way the look today. The aim here is not so much to turn you into a geologist, just to give you a sense of why mountains look the way they do in various places. Pick a mountain "type", open a board upon which you plan to put no track, and experiment with the landscape sculpting tools provided with TRS. And learn the limitations of the tools. For example, you cannot have a low steep cliff in TRS using the landscape tools. Even given the new, 5 meter grid in TRS 2009, unless the cliff is relatively high (say 30 or more grid units, the slope is going to be rather gentle. Learn how to make rivers. In TRS it is difficult to make a stream with low banks that is narrow. If you develop a board in which you're particularly pleased with your efforts, you can always incorporate it into a later route; for the ones that you'd rather not have anyone know you did, there's always the delete function.

But while you're experimenting with mountainous terrain, remember that more of the world is rolling hills than mountains, and I find it fairly easy to do convincing rolling hills with Trainz terrain creation tools. After deciding where I want a hill to be, I set the radius to the maximum value, and the sensitivity to a medium value, and build the base; then I estimate the approximate outline of the next contour, reduce the radius, and perhaps usually reduce the sensitivity, and build the next contour. I repeat the process of reducing the radius, and sensitivity until at the end the radius is at the minimum level, and I am using the height adjustment tool to adjust specific vertices.

And keep in mind the era when your route was built, too. At one stage, it was not feasible to remove large amounts of earth, and railroads tended to be more winding, since it was cheaper to build a curve around the mountain, than a tunnel through it, or to cut a bit of it away. A railroad build then will have more curves, somewhat lower grades, and shorter straight sections than a railroad built at a later time, when techology made making a cutting more feasible, and the desire was for longer straight-aways to keep the equipment maintenance costs down.

ns

john259
September 12th, 2009, 11:39 PM
One other thing, which you've probably got covered but FWIW - make sure the choice of vegetation is appropriate for each area. So as well as a geologist, geographer, historian and railway surveyor, you now also need to be a biologist!

John

dracular55
September 13th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Thanks for the help guys.

Ive got the majority of the layout done now, it is not huge, but a fair size. Now I just need to complete the scenery. :)

Ill post some pictures in a day or two.