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Approach_Medium
July 11th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Hi;
I have some of the "Safetran Clight" signals on my TS2009 route. Specifically, the 06 for diverging routes.

I have found that while driving in AI mode, the trains do not slow for an approach signal where the next signal is stop. They do stop at the stop signal though.

I don't know whether this is specific for safetran signals, or whether it would happen with the built-in signals as well.

Anyone have this issue ?

Thanks

FW

norfolksouthern37
July 11th, 2009, 11:48 AM
the signals themselves should not make a difference, however i would like to point out that a few of my signals do use extended states in order to show a more appropriate aspect, however trainz AI can only read stop, proceed, and caution. in both cases however a caution is a caution, so the train should slow to half track speed usually.

Euphod
July 11th, 2009, 02:07 PM
I'm not surprised, 2009 doesn't seem to like older scripts...:(

Approach_Medium
July 11th, 2009, 05:04 PM
This has nothing to do with the Safetran signals. I did some testing, replaced the signals in question with built-in content and the same thing happened.

After my tests, I found that I was incorrect in saying that AI trains did not slow for the signals.
In fact, they did slow to 1/2 the track speed as they passed the signal, but began to accelerate once past, and eventually reached track speed again before having to slow for the stop at the next signal.

Seeing that this happens whether I use built-in content or 3rd party such as Safetran, I have reason to believe that this is a TS2009 issue, not with any specific asset.

I think I can correct this using a trigger, and one or more rules. I know of one trigger that will change the speed of a train depending on the direction of a junction. I think there are other triggers and rules I can use.

FW

norfolksouthern37
July 11th, 2009, 06:01 PM
I'm not surprised, 2009 doesn't seem to like older scripts...:(


i have not seen 2009 not 'liking' older scripts. a lot of mine are from 04 days, and still work fine. there is nothing that would stop a script from working unless it was made wrong, again, something that was overlooked before. i know some signals have had problems in that the script was written incorrectly by not casting it as a signal object, but that is a creator error and does not relate to this thread.

Lots_Trains
July 11th, 2009, 06:47 PM
Hi fwassner :wave:


After my tests, I found that I was incorrect in saying that AI trains did not slow for the signals.
In fact, they did slow to 1/2 the track speed as they passed the signal, but began to accelerate once past, and eventually reached track speed again before having to slow for the stop at the next signal.


Unfortunatly its been fixed in SP2, I rather prefered it been broken guess everyone to there own

Cheers

Lots

Approach_Medium
July 11th, 2009, 07:47 PM
Hi fwassner :wave:



Unfortunatly its been fixed in SP2, I rather prefered it been broken guess everyone to there own

Cheers

Lots
What's been fixed in SP2? The fact that trains don't slow for an approach, or that they accelerate back to track speed after passing the signal?
I am running the SP2 beta. I also have a copy of TS2009 SP1++ the patches. I haven't been playing with signals on that install.

FW

Lots_Trains
July 11th, 2009, 10:14 PM
SP2 Thought you were

Trains are now slowing at yellow signals ans staying slow after they were not a few builds back

Cheers

Lots

Approach_Medium
July 11th, 2009, 10:20 PM
Some other oddities I have seen:

When I switched my interlocking signals from the safetran clight 06 to the clight interlocking 08, AI trains now stop and hold at the red boards, then after the approaching train clears the interlocking, the waiting train does not move out on its own. With the 06 signals, AI would throw the switch and the train would move out as soon as the block ahead was clear.
Now, I have to throw the switch manually, and tell AI to drive the train again.

I am not surprised that I have to throw the switch, since it's now a CP interlocking signal, but I didn't expect to have to get back into the cab and start the train moving again<g>

Another thing I am trying to figure out is why I never get the top aspect of the 08 interlocking signal to go clear. With multiple blocks cleared ahead, this is the best signal I get:

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp335/CPSK/Trainz/interlockingsignals.jpg

Dermmy
July 12th, 2009, 03:40 AM
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa187/Dermmy/temp/greensig.jpg

Shows same aspect in TRS04 and TRS06. Signal is protecting a multi-junction interlocking including two double slips...

Andy :)

norfolksouthern37
July 12th, 2009, 04:28 AM
Some other oddities I have seen:

When I switched my interlocking signals from the safetran clight 06 to the clight interlocking 08, AI trains now stop and hold at the red boards, then after the approaching train clears the interlocking, the waiting train does not move out on its own. With the 06 signals, AI would throw the switch and the train would move out as soon as the block ahead was clear.
Now, I have to throw the switch manually, and tell AI to drive the train again.

I am not surprised that I have to throw the switch, since it's now a CP interlocking signal, but I didn't expect to have to get back into the cab and start the train moving again<g>

Another thing I am trying to figure out is why I never get the top aspect of the 08 interlocking signal to go clear. With multiple blocks cleared ahead, this is the best signal I get:



these are not being used in the right place thats why. they need to guard more than your standard junction.

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 09:07 AM
these are not being used in the right place thats why. they need to guard more than your standard junction.
The reason I use them is that they are the only signal that will work properly on my route.

If I use the 06 or another signal instead, the signals will allow two trains to occupy the same single track between interlockings (where there are multiple blocks between, signalled by automatic signals).

FW

nicky9499
July 12th, 2009, 10:18 AM
With no intention to hijack this thread, here's a quick question; what are the three-aspect signals used for? So far I've only used 04 (absolute, converging), 05 (distant) and 06 (diverging).

Cheerio,
Nicholas.

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 11:37 AM
The 08 (3 aspect) signals are used at interlockings, usually several lines diverging/merging and crossovers.

FW

norfolksouthern37
July 12th, 2009, 12:21 PM
using trainz has mislead a lot of people to think that most signals have something to do with routing, when this really isnt the case. in the US most signals are speed indicating, including the signals i have made for TRS. you can usually guess your route by this, like with a red over yellow indication, but its really just speed control. the 08 signals are not going to tell you what route you are taking but tell you what speed you need to be observing while crossing the next set of turnouts.

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 12:46 PM
using trainz has mislead a lot of people to think that most signals have something to do with routing, when this really isnt the case. in the US most signals are speed indicating, including the signals i have made for TRS. you can usually guess your route by this, like with a red over yellow indication, but its really just speed control. the 08 signals are not going to tell you what route you are taking but tell you what speed you need to be observing while crossing the next set of turnouts.
Thanks NS. That really helps to clear up a lot of my confusion, and trying to make the signals indicate route.

FW

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 12:48 PM
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa187/Dermmy/temp/greensig.jpg

Shows same aspect in TRS04 and TRS06. Signal is protecting a multi-junction interlocking including two double slips...

Andy :)Nice screen shot!
I really have to start working on detail for my route.

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 01:17 PM
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa187/Dermmy/temp/greensig.jpg

Shows same aspect in TRS04 and TRS06. Signal is protecting a multi-junction interlocking including two double slips...

Andy :)Under what conditions do you get a clear on the top aspect?
I have yet to configure an interlocking where I get anything better than approach.

Is your route available on DLS?

Edit: I found and am in the process of DL your Southside layouts. Thanks for your great work!

Dermmy
July 12th, 2009, 05:02 PM
This screenie shows the interlocking protected:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa187/Dermmy/temp/sig2.jpg

The routes set are indicated by the red lines. The green arrows indicate the position of the signals protecting the opposite approach.

The screenie also demonstrates Justin's point about the signals not being route indicating. The highball green is showing for what appears to be a 'diverge left' while the proceed/caution is showing for a route straight thru the middle.

What the screenie does NOT show though is the 'natural' position of the junction levers. The highball green is showing for the route 90% of trains will take, which is in effect the 'Main' and this is the route the junctions are set for in the route save. The 'Proceed/Caution' is showing for a route set across the path of 90% of approaching trains and onto the Albuquerque line, which is in effect the 'Branch'. Most trains approaching from the opposite direction will come from top left and cross the interlocking opposite the tower and then onto one of the cluster of tracks in the right foreground. (Belen is set up for left-hand running - the normal right-hand running would mean eastbounds and westbounds would have to cross each other at this junction). The point is though that to set the Albuquerque route the AI has had to throw levers, and as much as anything it is the need to throw levers which seems to control how the AI perceives a route.

There are many issues which affect what aspect signals will show. 'Natural' lever position (particularly on facing junctions) is high on the list, but there are other indeterminates which will often complicate things. I would actually prefer if that highball green WAS a Proceed/Caution, it seems more appropriate to the circumstances.

Slightly Off Topic: Southside is an old route and does not use these signals. Clovis1 (available from checkrail - click my sig) contains the area shown in the screenies but uses Justin's older Searchlight Signals. Clovis2 which is the route the screenie was taken on is just a couple of weeks from release...

Andy :)

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 05:22 PM
Thanks Andy;
I have to check the setting of my junctions. I had completely forgotten about it.
I have set up a test interlocking, with crossovers and a diverging route that I hope will help me understand what is going on.

While I do understand that US signals are not normally used to show route direction, they usually do anyway, since the route over the crossover is always reduced speed compared to straight through.

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 05:46 PM
OK. I have my little test interlocking. First screenshot below.
The signals are all safetran's.
The interlocking signals are 08, and the automatics are 05.

All switches have been set to normal and the route saved.
The default route for all tracks is straight through the crossovers.

All tracks are protected by an 08 signal in each direction at the interlocking.
There are at least 4 automatic signals each side of the interlocking.

When I go into driver mode, the interlocking signals are still red since the train is far away.
Once the train passes the first automatic signal, the interlocking signal changes to the indication shown in the 2nd screenshot.

I even set a rule to check multiple junctions, and set the condition for all to the default, just to make sure.

So, is this not the type of interlocking the signals are designed for?

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp335/CPSK/Trainz/interlockingwsignals-1.jpg

Interlocking Overview

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp335/CPSK/Trainz/interlockingwsignals-2.jpg

Train approaching interlocking, all switches lined straight throug

Dermmy
July 12th, 2009, 05:55 PM
Clovis 2 contains many double crossovers not unlike what you have on your test route and one thing I did find was that where the first junction of an interlocking was a trailing junction almost anything was possible. I did manage to find a work-around in most instances, though not all. It is early morning here and work is a'waiting, but if nobody else solves it sooner I will have a play around with that set-up tonight....

Andy :)

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 06:25 PM
Clovis 2 contains many double crossovers not unlike what you have on your test route and one thing I did find was that where the first junction of an interlocking was a trailing junction almost anything was possible. I did manage to find a work-around in most instances, though not all. It is early morning here and work is a'waiting, but if nobody else solves it sooner I will have a play around with that set-up tonight....

Andy :)
Well, one thing I can say is that this is interesting "work".
I'm looking forward to the release of your new route.

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Andy;
I set up what I believe is your interlocking, set up the signals using the safetran 08 (I used pedistals, not gantry for simplicity), and set all of the junctions per your screenshot, and I still got the approach over clear with stop on the bottom.

The only time I have been able to get the clear indication on top is when I put the signal on a piece of signalled track that had no junctions!

I'll figure this out, if it takes me all night. Once I get onto something like this, I have to crack it.

Approach_Medium
July 12th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Update:

I played with a test route in TS2009 and TS2009 SP2 beta for a couple hours and could never get the Safetran clight interlocking 08 signals to display any better than yellow on top, green on center and red on bottom.

Then I decided to try TS2006.
I created a similar route, but this one had 3 tracks, another line crossing at an angle with two double-slips, plus another set of crossovers (including one double-slip) for the other direction.

I placed the safetran 08 signals to protect the interlocking, and safetran 05 automatics along the way in either direction of the interlocking.

I set switches to default straight through the interlocking.
I placed a loco on each of the 3 tracks at one end.

Then I started driver.

First off, the signals acted differently than they do in TS2009.
The first two automatic signals ahead of each loco were green, the next was yellow, and all the rest, including the interlocking signals were red.

As the train moved forward, there were always two green and one yellow ahead of it, with all the remaining signals up the line red.

When the condition for the interlocking signals to show an indication (other than stop), it was first with the top aspect yellow, the lower two red.
When the train passed one more automatic signal, with only one clear automatic between it and the interlocking, the interlocking signal changed to: top aspect green, the lower two red.
At this point, the next signal, an automatic on the distant side of the interlocking was indicating yellow.

Next, I restarted driver, and changed the junctions so that the train would cross over from the center track to the rightmost main track.

When the loco approached, the interlocking signal indicated: top aspect yellow, the middle aspect green, and the lower red.
So, the signal was "aware" that the route was diverging, and indicated accordingly.

This is the way I would have expected these, or any 3 aspect signal to behave in TS2009. Now that I know they do behave properly in TS2006, I can speculate that TS2009 is interpreting the script differently.

Since I do not understand scripting, and don't even have any source code to look at, there is nothing further I can do here.

Approach_Medium
July 14th, 2009, 09:04 PM
using trainz has mislead a lot of people to think that most signals have something to do with routing, when this really isnt the case. in the US most signals are speed indicating, including the signals i have made for TRS. you can usually guess your route by this, like with a red over yellow indication, but its really just speed control. the 08 signals are not going to tell you what route you are taking but tell you what speed you need to be observing while crossing the next set of turnouts.
But they do have the capability to show direction of a junction ahead.
You use code in your script that assigns head color based partially on Junction.direction.

Seeing ths, I am investigating the signals.gs in TS2009 compared to that in TS2006, and find much more code in TS2009, handling various new features.

By playing around with your script (after cloning the safetran clight signal 08 interlocking), I have found that the signal is always receiving information that a junction has been set to left or right, and thus displays the signal that is appropriate for left or right diverging.

There must be something different about the way in which TS2006 handles this, as these same signals, on this same route work exactly as I would expect them to in TS2006.

I am still digging into the various scripts, comapring TS2006 to TS2009.
Not having any real experience with this, but being familiar with code structure, and the general flow, I think I can locate the problem.
If nothing else, I will learn a lot of TS scripting in the process.

However, since most people who use this forum don't know anything about code, I am going to keep all of this content over in TrainzDev.
I just figured that I would mention it to you, since you are a content creator.