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Christopher824
October 27th, 2021, 11:10 AM
I am posting this in the TCCP forum section, if you are not a TCCP content creator, this may not apply to you.

When developing content, routes, locos, ect. and submitting them to the TCCP, the content must be 'available' or it must be your own. Prior to SP4, CM showed many assets as 'built-in' with prior version available on the DLS. Since then, these 'built-in' assets have now become 'Packaged'. If the current 'Packaged' version is not on the DLS, it now becomes unuseable for the TCCP crew.

There is also a 'Packaged, Payware' status, which if that is the only place the asset appears, it's payware, no worries.

So for the TCCP build machine, I think that 'Packaged' status should be treated as 'built-in' in prior versions. It would help moving forward with the new 'Packaged' workflow.

If examples are needed I have a few.

Thanks in advance to anyone that has input or solutions.

hiawathamr
October 27th, 2021, 02:17 PM
The 'Packaged' is the new way of saying its built-in. This just shows that these items (mostly to DLS items) are part of a DLC pack.
Items that now come with the core verison of TRS19 (before all of the DLC's are downloaded) will show the traditional built-in to tell you its part of the actual game core set.

My guess with this new system is to prepare for the new surveyor 2.0 that's supposed to become available soon.

Cheers

gramma
October 27th, 2021, 06:56 PM
Wow! I Never Seen That Before! This is New Way!

ZecMurphy
October 27th, 2021, 09:51 PM
Hi All
With the latest updates to the DLC system, we now have the ability for creators to specify which assets are to be payware encoded (which are shown as 'packaged, payware' in content manager).

For any non payware assets, they will use the new 'packaged' status, which indicates to you that they are part of a DLC pack, but aren't payware encrypted.

In regards to submitting a DLC pack, we do not provide any support for uploading content that is packaged in a DLC pack. This means that you must have a 'source' version of all dependencies, except where they are in the core Trainz installation, installed to upload the DLC pack. For this reason, it is strongly recommended that you use a new/clean LocalData to upload DLC packs so that you can ensure that all included content is only installed in it's source form (and to help check the source of the assets you are including).

Regards

G.M.
October 28th, 2021, 10:47 AM
Hi Zec, is there now any prevention from freeware (DLS) items suddenly becoming payware (since Sp4)?
let the DLC uploader decide may not be handy. An uploader should only decide about his/her own items.
Had problems with neoklai freeware items, suddenly become payware, cause they are used in Sebinolake

ZecMurphy
October 28th, 2021, 10:02 PM
Hi G.M.
The new system should report errors to creators if a DLS asset is listed in the 'assets to be payware encrypted' list. It will also normally cause an error when a DLS asset is listed as a feature asset as well IIRC.

The idea is that 'payware' assets are only available through the payware DLC pack, and cannot be edited (ie are encrypted). Usiing my Healesville route as an example, the payware assets were the route/sessions, and some of the traincar assets. The feature assets were the route/sessions, but no other assets.

Any other assets in a DLC pack will then be marked as 'packaged', functionally the equivalent of the old 'builtin', but hopefully a little clearer on what the status is (so that 'builtin' can be used for actually builtin assets :) ).

Regards

G.M.
October 28th, 2021, 11:49 PM
I see it has your(n3v) attention and TY for fixing
1 more off the list for SP4HF1 :-)

Christopher824
October 30th, 2021, 10:18 AM
...
Any other assets in a DLC pack will then be marked as 'packaged', functionally the equivalent of the old 'builtin', but hopefully a little clearer on what the status is (so that 'builtin' can be used for actually builtin assets :) ).

Regards

I get the whole package thing, this will be great if and when it's all sorted out, and it's only a small set of assets for me, but still does not explain this for example;

<kuid:60238:38058> Wire Gates <-- on DLS, original
<kuid:60238:38212> Wire Gates <-- on DLS, obsoletes previous
<kuid2:60238:38212:1> Wire Gates <-- Packaged, obsoletes previous, was marked built-in SP3, now unusable for TCCP projects

So these Route Packages use this asset on my system;

Packaged <kuid2:515942:100004:1> 1930s Cornish Mainline and Branches - Truro to Penzance
Packaged, Payware <kuid2:515942:100169:21> Cornish Mainline and Branches - TRS19
Packaged, Payware <kuid2:154322:100063:19> ECML EDINBURGH - DUNDEE
Packaged, Payware <kuid2:154322:101483:23> ECML Kings Cross - Edinburgh

Now that it's packaged and current version is not available on DLS or in a core route, can't be used for TCCP project any longer (as of SP4). I have contacted vulcan and am trying to have him update it, I sent him a build 3.5 version that could be put on the DLS, he does not quite get the problem though, as he may not use the TCCP, but could be fixed that way, which I believe is unnessacary, his licence states this asset is freware, and was on DLS. It's almost like N3V scooped up this asset and threw away the key. I notice some of the assets I made are marked Packaged on my system, no big deal because the current or newer version is available on the DLS, so it does not effect the TCCP build machine.

The fix would be that if an assets is packaged, but there is a prevous version on the DLS, it should pass. I don't think vulcan's licence allow for the current way, it was free, and should still be free for anyone with a copy of any version of Trainz. Same with Maddy25's assets which are also effected the same way.

G.M.
November 1st, 2021, 07:03 AM
Think the whole Packaged and packaged, payware is causing more problems than it solves


I assume including content in a DLC pack, was done to increase download speed for the DLC buyer
but, most people that buy DLC also have FCT from DLS already.
so there is no real need to include anything in a DLC except,
the route/sessions and specific content only used in that route made by the route builder


Used content in the route that is on the DLS, should not be included and specially not altered
no .texture, no package tag, no alteration whatsoever.


Then, some users(like me) prefer to only install content that they actually use
to keep the PC clean, I limit the content here to the absolute minimum.


In surveyor where you select items to place in your route, the lists should be clear color coded FI:
-red, is faulty
-white, is on DLS
-light grey, not on DLS
-gold/yellow, is payware or in a DLC pack
-light green , already used in this route


This helps route/sessions builders to prevent using items, that will give trouble later.


good luck fixing it.

Christopher824
November 1st, 2021, 11:15 AM
...

In surveyor where you select items to place in your route, the lists should be clear color coded FI:
-red, is faulty
-white, is on DLS
-light grey, not on DLS
-gold/yellow, is payware or in a DLC pack
-light green , already used in this route

...

Maybe Surveyor 2.0 can do this, hopefully. This would be a welcomed update, would save hours of development time. Here would be my logic;

-red, is faulty
-green, Base, Built-In or current version on DLS
-gold, current version Packaged or Packaged Payware, no DLS version
-white, current version Packaged, previous version on DLS

I'm not sure the 'already used in route' would work, if you accidently put a gold asset in your route by mistake it will turn a different color. So, from my chart, I would be using green and white, avoiding gold. With white making me look to see if it's freeware and if it can be cloned by the license (of the DSL version).

Thanks for following this G.M., your help is much apreciated.

BTW, I am in no way convinced that Packaged is now the new Built-In, someone did not think this all the way through.

added: my way of thinking does nothing for the people that like to delete assets to make thier installation smaller. It is only from a development standpoint.

Chris

G.M.
November 1st, 2021, 12:20 PM
One very annoying aspect of myself is constant thinking behind the scenes
always take one step back first when deciding something, no way to turn it off :-)
its part of Lateral thinking.


The reason for an item to change color when already used in the route (whether green or not)
is that it is very efficient, reusing an item, means no extra load time and less download time.


Currently ofc. we can use picklist to reach that efficiency
-use from a preselection of a few type of trees not every board another
-use only few ground textures for the entire route, only step outside the set if it really needed


the classification as I see it:
base -essential content in all versions and made by Auran/n3v
built-in -content from a 3rd party, sold as part of the product (creator should receive royalties)
packaged -content in a DLC =payware (never including freeware (DLS) items)
DLS - freeware content from the download station
3rd party -content from external source (not on DLS) (could be free or payware)
modified - modified by the user (no matter what the source)
obsolete -there is a newer version (user should not be forced to use the newer)


I hope less handy choices in the past will not make the game only usable for the ones that study it
Trainz should be fun for all of us, KISS and user-friendly.

Christopher824
November 2nd, 2021, 12:14 PM
So looking further into this, I'm starting to wonder if the CRG assets are the one's that are not passing. I tried an asset that the only version I had was 'Packaged' and it passed, and an asset that was with previous versions on the DLS, and they passed. So what is the common here, looks like assets that were repaired and then included in 'Packaged'. Even if these have previous versions on the DLS, they fail (did the CRG use some secret mesh library, not available to us?). The ones failing are missing some files in the asset. The ones I can restore, have the files needed in the original DLS versions.

It's just plausable, so I have to look into every avenue of plausability.

ZecMurphy
November 2nd, 2021, 08:23 PM
Hi All
In regards to assets not being listed on the DLS. If the asset was detected as faulty in recent (ie the last 2-3 years from memory) error checking passes on the DLS, they will not show as 'available for download' in Content Manager; however will normally still be able to be downloaded by Content Manager. These assets are added to the CRG's repair list, and the creator is notified of the assets being marked as faulty.

Either the creator or the CRG, or in some cases N3V, will upload an update to the assets to the DLC to resolve the errors. Until an update is uploaded and released, the asset will generally be show as 'unknown'.

In regards to including all assets in a DLC pack, this is a requirement for releasing DLC packs through some avenues, and is an expectation from the majority of our customers (in part to follow the KISS principal for the end user, they click install on a DLC pack and it installs the entire DLC pack). We do not have any plans to not include all required dependencies in a DLC pack, however we have made improvements to the handling of this as I have outlined previously.

As noted previously, there are now steps in place to help prevent DLS content being packaged as payware, so despite it being said to be a problem above, this is actively being prevented in new DLC packs.

The current statuses that you will see in Trainz are:

base- these are assets that are in the core Trainz installation, as part of the core assets for Trainz itself to run
built-in- these are assets that are builtin in Trainz itself, and either DLS or are non DLS that are not payware encrypted. Generally this isn't used for DLC packs anymore.
built-in, payware - assets that are builtin in Trainz itself, and are payware encrypted.
packaged- These are assets included in DLC packs that are not payware encrypted. This includes both DLS and non DLS assets.
packaged, payware- These are payware encrypted assets that are included in a DLC pack.
Available from DLS - Content that is available from the DLS
Installed from DLS - Content that has been installed from the DLS, and isn't in a DLC pack.
3rd party - this currently indicates an asset that was installed from the DLS, but isn't being seen as on the DLS (likely due to it being in the CRG's repair list)
modified - this can indicate two things. 1) The asset was modified by the user (ie opened for edit, then submitted). 2) The asset was installed from a cdp file that was not downloaded from the Download Station; so generally content you have downloaded from a non DLS source.

There are other additional parts to some of these statuses such as out of date, obsolete, missing dependencies, etc that should be self explanatory.

It must be noted that most DLC packs released prior to the latest updates to TCCP (so more than about 1-2 years old) will not change unless they need to be rebuilt through TCCP. So these older DLC packs may show incorrect statuses on some assets for the time being. It's a very big undertaking to re-package a lot of these older DLC packs, and at the current time we simply don't have the resources to do this inhouse. We can certainly assist creators in getting their package setup in TCCP so they can resubmit it through the latest TCCP system, but that would be up to the creator if they wish to proceed with that.

Regards

Forester1
November 2nd, 2021, 09:50 PM
And don't forget these:
Packaged, Payware (not active) - Which you have but can't use for some reason
Packaged, Newer version available - which you have, but you can't download the new version for some reason
Packaged, Newer version available, Payware - which you have, but you can't download the new version for some reason

All together Waaay too many statuses junking up the CM now.

ZecMurphy
November 2nd, 2021, 10:11 PM
And don't forget these:
Packaged, Payware (not active) - Which you have but can't use for some reason
Packaged, Newer version available - which you have, but you can't download the new version for some reason
Packaged, Newer version available, Payware - which you have, but you can't download the new version for some reason

All together Waaay too many statuses junking up the CM now.

To confirm, these mean:

Packaged, Payware (not active) - The asset is part of a DLC pack that is not active. This may be from a DLC pack that you installed as part of a beta test, or may be due to changing membership, or some other reason. Make sure that you do own access to the DLC pack, and that you have the latest version of the DLC pack installed.

Packaged, Newer version available
Packaged, Newer version available, Payware

These both means that a newer version of the asset has been detected by Trainz. In the case of the first one, double check that the update isn't on the DLS by right clicking on the asset, then clicking list asset versions.

As with any asset (packaged isn't actually relevant here, the 'new version available' part is what is relevant), sometimes a new version of the asset may have been released through a specific package. Be it a mobile specific update, or the creator may have included the update in a different DLC pack for some reason. In either case, unless the update is listed as 'available for download' you won't be able to install it through the DLS. If there is an update for a DLC pack available, it will be available through the 'updates' page of the Content Store. If the update isn't released on the DLS, or as an update for your specific DLC pack, then generally that means the update isn't relevant to your version of Trainz.

As to too many statuses, we have added the 'packaged' status to help differentiate between payware and non payware content (and to differentiate it from actually builtin content!). A catch 22 situation, we add more statuses to help make it clearer what the status of the asset is, and we then cop it for adding more statuses...

Regards

G.M.
November 3rd, 2021, 02:43 AM
TY Zec, for explaining more
but as you can see it is confusing even for people that think they know something about Trainz


Isn't Packaged, Payware a bit like saying "white snow"? (yes i know it can get dirty)
What gets packaged?
-base files = n3v/Auran, you pay for the software = payware
-Built-in, originally freeware from creators, but now sold as part of the game = payware
-DLC's, creators and nv3 get money for it = payware
so actually all packaged = payware, or don't I understand it?


Again, what creators offer as freeware, should not/never be included in a package
cause at that moment it becomes payware and is against what the original creator intended

dangavel
November 3rd, 2021, 04:13 AM
well reading this thread makes me want to scream , it gets more complex,but does it get better ? As far as I can see , not one bit
I have zero desire on learning how to navigate this increasingly lunatic assets system that NV3 has foistered on us over the past few years , if I hadn't heavily invested years of my life making routes for this app , I'd pack up my bags and leave . I think you guys at NV3 have totally lost the plot. How the hell new recruits feel when they attempt of decipher the asset rules I hate to think.
All i know is trying to ensure that any assets i use in my routes are going to be available for people to use freely is never going to get any easier as you introduce more categories and provisos that may very well make sense to you, but which , when i think back, ,just reminds me of the computer guys at work, they understood all their protocols, but they were usually incapable of conveying them clearly to anyone else.

Forester1
November 3rd, 2021, 09:38 AM
Somewhere in the planning process, if you had run a thread called "what would everyone think if we changed the statuses to this?" I can pretty much imagine what the vote would have been. But of course that thread never ran, so far as I ever saw.

ZecMurphy
November 4th, 2021, 12:15 AM
TBH it seems that a select few people are intentionally trying to make this as confusing as possible, especially for other readers. Every time I provide the exact specifications of what each status means, there's a reply with made up definitions... So I will say straight up, please make sure you read exactly what I'm explaining for the statuses. As an example, I specifically stated what the 'builtin' status refers now...

In regards to the change from everything in a DLC pack being marked 'builtin' to actually being marked as 'packaged' was brought about after a lot of community feedback that listing it as builtin was confusing... Catch 22 again, we ignore it and a group will complain that we're making it confusing. We fix it (which necessitates adding as new status), and we get a group complaining that it's confusing.

But to clarify, any asset included in a current DLC pack is marked packaged. If it's payware encrypted, it's 'packaged, payware'.

In some cases (where an issue, or change has occurred, such as an asset being inactive) the asset can have additional components added to the status to tell you what is happening. I suppose we could hide these and leave you wondering why an asset isn't working... But I'm sure that would be less than popular as well.


As to including DLS content in DLC packs, despite how much a couple of people complain about this, this is NOT going to change. By uploading to the DLS, the creator agrees to allow us to provide the asset as part of paid products (noting that technically the DLS is a paid product, since you need to own and register Trainz to access it, and has the paid FCT option for faster speeds).

The DLS assets are included to make it as easy as possible for end players to install the DLC packs, without needing to spend time searching for dependencies (just look at how often people have to ask where to find assets on downloads from 3rd party sites, even for payware).

If you are a creator, it is recommended to have a 'clean' LocalData that you can install your content into to test. This allows you to verify if any assets it requires are not on the DLS, and take action accordingly. Personally I've been doing this for many years, it lets me verify what assets may need to be replaced, or what of my own may need to be uploaded. If you are releasing a package through TCCP, it also allows you to install any required assets from a 'source' location to then submit your package. Alternatively, you can add the 'on DLS = false' filter to the 'dependencies' list in Content Manager to check for any non DLS dependencies.

Regards

pcas1986
November 4th, 2021, 04:09 AM
So looking further into this, I'm starting to wonder if the CRG assets are the one's that are not passing. I tried an asset that the only version I had was 'Packaged' and it passed, and an asset that was with previous versions on the DLS, and they passed. So what is the common here, looks like assets that were repaired and then included in 'Packaged'. Even if these have previous versions on the DLS, they fail (did the CRG use some secret mesh library, not available to us?). The ones failing are missing some files in the asset. The ones I can restore, have the files needed in the original DLS versions.

It's just plausable, so I have to look into every avenue of plausability.

I've come in a bit late but... The CRG fix assets as if they were the original author: they have no special powers beyond that. Nor any special tools for that matter. The mesh libraries must be already on the DLS and available to anyone with DLS access.

The use of mesh libraries can be problematic and particularly when authors drop meshes out of a library or add new meshes. If I were in charge I'd probably mandate that "thou shalt not remove or add meshes to an existing library. Start a new one instead and save everyone a lot of grief". :)

Stonegate
November 4th, 2021, 06:24 AM
TBH


As to including DLS content in DLC packs, despite how much a couple of people complain about this, this is NOT going to change. By uploading to the DLS, the creator agrees to allow us to provide the asset as part of paid products (noting that technically the DLS is a paid product, since you need to own and register Trainz to access it, and has the paid FCT option for faster speeds).

The DLS assets are included to make it as easy as possible for end players to install the DLC packs, without needing to spend time searching for dependencies (just look at how often people have to ask where to find assets on downloads from 3rd party sites, even for payware).

Regards


The concern, as far as I am concerned, isn't that DLC packs use DLS content. Neither am I particularly worried if they are marked as "packaged". The problem has always been that certain DLS products are up-issued (by whom is not clear) and put in a DLC package, without them being added to the DLS.

As a result if someone who has bought or used such an up-issued asset as part of standard DLS asset. Anyone who either has not bought the DLC pack, or not up-dated a DLC pack will be confronted by a missing or unknown asset report.

This to my mind is a totally unacceptable way of working.

Why are up-issued DLS assets not automatically placed on the DLS?

If the later version was not done with the explicit authority of the original author, who did modify it and why? Saying that the asset is incompatible with a version of Trainz is a dubious excuse at best. If I complained in the forum that a V1.3 asset didn't work properly with my latest TRS19 route, I would soon be told in one way or another where to get off.

If, for some reason, it is essential to modify an existing DLS item, why can it not given a completely new kuid, so that the original DLS asset can continue to be used without interference and to make it clear that the modified version is a "DLC packaged payware" item only.

Furthermore there is presumably a database containing items that are in the DLC packs. Why can this information not be made available to Content Manager, so that missing DLC assets can be identified. It should also be possible, where a DLC pack is already owned, for updated assets to be downloaded.
In many cases I have already downloaded DLC packages (routes), which come as part of the TRS19 bundle for the sole reason of getting two or three assets which have been included in a DLS item. In most cases I have never even opened these routes. The need to re-download the entire pack again because one asset has been updated is ridiculous. It is not sensible to argue that broadband download speeds make it trivial to download gigabytes of data for the sake of an asset that maybe only a megabyte or so.

Regards

Mike

G.M.
November 4th, 2021, 08:13 AM
As to including DLS content in DLC packs, despite how much a couple of people complain about this, this is NOT going to change.
It would not be a problem if the free DLS items still remain free for those that do not have or want that DLC.



By uploading to the DLS, the creator agrees to allow us to provide the asset as part of paid products (noting that technically the DLS is a paid product, since you need to own and register Trainz to access it, and has the paid FCT option for faster speeds).
This is a one sided and unfair agreement, to upload you have to click agree
Love to make stuff for Trainz and love other people to have fun with it,
but do not agree that a company makes profit with things I make and offer free.


That they are made and shared already enhances the value of the total Trainz experience, no need to milk it

ZecMurphy
November 4th, 2021, 10:18 AM
As we've stated many many times, at no point has a freeware asset on the DLS been intentionally made payware or exclusive to a DLC pack. There have, in the past when we manually packaged DLC packs, been instances of DLS assets having newer revisions included in DLC packs.

It's possible that in some cases we may need to update assets internally to fix errors that our packaging system has reported. We do our best to place these updates onto the DLS, but in a few cases where they go through a few different hands they have ended up not being placed onto the DLS. As we've stated many many times, if people report this to us (via the helpdesk, so we do actually receive the report), we'll place them onto the DLS as soon as we can. I've personally uploaded many of the reported assets within 2-3 days of the report being received.

The result is, no assets are actively made non DLS by us, and the current DLC system will help to avoid this.

We have definitely not removed assets from the DLS after being included in a DLC pack, as is being insinuated by some...

There is an exception here. A creator themselves can decide to distribute updates to their own assets however they wish. If they include an update in a DLC pack themselves, that is their choice. It's one we'd recommend that they avoid, but they may have a good reason for it, whilst still wanting it to be a direct update to the previous asset. In this situation, you would need to speak to the creator about why they have chosen to only release the update in a DLC pack.

Where a creator submits a package that has an update of another creator's asset included, and it's not available on the DLS, it will alert the uploader to this on the TCCP website and will alert the creator of that asset that a package has been submitted with one of their assets, so that they can either approve it or place the asset on to the DLS. Often this is due to the update only being released via a creator's website, or similar.

As to repairing assets and placing them onto the DLS, this is done so that assets will continue to function in newer versions. A common complaint for many years were many assets that were seen as essential to many routes being shown as faulty. We provide creators an opportunity to update their faulty assets, and if not done so in the required amount of time, it is then passed to the CRG to repair. The whole point of the kuid2 revision system is to allow assets to be updated, whilst the original remains available (meaning you can still install the original if the newer one is incompatible with your version of Trainz!).

As to installing DLC packs to gain specific assets. If the asset is exclusive to that DLC pack, then yes you will need to install the entire DLC pack. If the asset is from the DLS, or another website, then simply installing it from the DLS will install the asset. Again, if you have an example of a DLS asset with an update that is not on the DLS but is in a DLC pack, please report this to our helpdesk so that we can resolve this.

In regards to updating DLC packs, updates to DLC packs are generally only released where the core assets of the DLC pack (ie the route or sessions) have been updated. As DLC packs are a single packaged file, it does require the whole package to be downloaded again. This ensures that the package is installed correctly with the latest update, and ensures that the package has the latest updates of all included assets in the package. As to how necessary the update is, well that depends on how much the creator has changed, and why they submitted the update. If you aren't seeing issues with a DLC pack, then it's up to you to decide if installing the updated DLC pack is necessary.

For installing updates for DLS assets, any updates will be indicated by the asset having 'newer version available' added to the end of the status. For builtin/packaged assets, you will currently need to right click on the asset and then click on 'list asset versions', then download the newest version. For payware assets, if the update is available for your version it will be shown in the 'content store' as an update for the included DLC pack. For assets installed from the DLS, or marked as modified, you can simply right click on the asset and then click on 'download'.

Regards

Christopher824
November 4th, 2021, 12:16 PM
...
There have, in the past when we manually packaged DLC packs, been instances of DLS assets having newer revisions included in DLC packs.

It's possible that in some cases we may need to update assets internally to fix errors that our packaging system has reported. We do our best to place these updates onto the DLS, but in a few cases where they go through a few different hands they have ended up not being placed onto the DLS. As we've stated many many times, if people report this to us (via the helpdesk, so we do actually receive the report), we'll place them onto the DLS as soon as we can. I've personally uploaded many of the reported assets within 2-3 days of the report being received.
...

Regards

Well, good! That is actually the answer I was looking for when I started this thread. The debate about the status of assets was not really the question. I get the packaged thing, and I like it. The color coding in Surveyor would be a great plus if that happens in Surveyor 2.0 also..