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Lo_Poly
August 17th, 2007, 02:34 PM
(A new computer in general not just for TC). I would post this in hardware forum, but we don't exactly have one. http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forum/images/smilies/lipsaresealed.gif

Well, some commented that they would "NEVER pay $3000 for a computer" so I thought I'd build one from the ground up. UnNerved showed me Newegg so I decided to take a look around..... and I have no idea what any of this technical jumbo is, or why a processor thats 2.4Ghz costs $600 more than a 2.6Ghz processor. :D If one of you really technical guys could help me out I'd be fine.

I was wondering what price could be achived for a computer with the following statistics (same as the one I was considering in a previous post):
Windows Vista Ultimate (32-bit)
Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Quad processor Q6600 (2.4GHz)
4GB DDR2-800MHz dual channel SDRAM (4x1024)
640MB NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS, 2 DVI, TV-Out
800GB RAID 0 (2 x 400GB SATA HDDs)
LightScribe 16X DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
16x max. DVD-ROM
Sound Blaster Audigy X-Fi, 24-bit Xtreme Fidelity
22-inch LCD Wide Flat Panel Monitor
Logitech X-530 5.1 Speakers
Wireless keyboard and wireless optical mouse
400VA UPS and Surge ProtectionBut not just Newegg, maybe some other sites I don't know about. And yes, voice opinions.

Cheers. :wave:

Gangsta_Boi
August 17th, 2007, 02:40 PM
Nice rig !

Don't expect it cheap though :p

And get rid of Vista, get XP, much better.

Gangsta_Boi

Harry_James_Potter
August 17th, 2007, 03:24 PM
And replace the raid 0 array with a 1TB hard disk from the off...

That processor that runs slower yet is 600 notes more has more processing power than the 2.6GHz even though the core ticks slower. In this case, it's not the speed that's important. it's the raw processing power per clock tick.

regards

Harry

Lo_Poly
August 17th, 2007, 03:29 PM
No, I'm asking what that would cost! If it's maybe in the lower $2000 range I would consider upgrading to better options (Like Harry said) but I just want to know what the lowest plausible price for a computer with that configuration would be.

Euphod
August 17th, 2007, 04:16 PM
No offense....but is this some kind of Tom Sawyer whitewashing the fence sort of thing?

You have all the specs you are looking for, just visit pricegrabber or something and get the lowest prices.

Why are you trying to get someone else to give you prices?

Ed

Lo_Poly
August 17th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Why are you trying to get someone else to give you prices?

Ed

Because I didn't know "PriceGrabber" existed. Although I still would need help with technical mumbo jumbo. :( Oh, and pricegrabber seems to have less stuff than the other site and has nigher prices. And I'm having trouble finding those specific parts on Newegg. I hope that explains.

johnwhelan
August 17th, 2007, 05:15 PM
(A new computer in general not just for TC). I would post this in hardware forum, but we don't exactly have one. http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forum/images/smilies/lipsaresealed.gif

Well, some commented that they would "NEVER pay $3000 for a computer" so I thought I'd build one from the ground up. UnNerved showed me Newegg so I decided to take a look around..... and I have no idea what any of this technical jumbo is, or why a processor thats 2.4Ghz costs $600 more than a 2.6Ghz processor. :D If one of you really technical guys could help me out I'd be fine.

I was wondering what price could be achived for a computer with the following statistics (same as the one I was considering in a previous post):
Windows Vista Ultimate (32-bit)
Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Quad processor Q6600 (2.4GHz)
4GB DDR2-800MHz dual channel SDRAM (4x1024)
640MB NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS, 2 DVI, TV-Out
800GB RAID 0 (2 x 400GB SATA HDDs)
LightScribe 16X DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
16x max. DVD-ROM
Sound Blaster Audigy X-Fi, 24-bit Xtreme Fidelity
22-inch LCD Wide Flat Panel Monitor
Logitech X-530 5.1 Speakers
Wireless keyboard and wireless optical mouse
400VA UPS and Surge ProtectionBut not just Newegg, maybe some other sites I don't know about. And yes, voice opinions.

Cheers. :wave:

RAID 0 means when one drive dies you have a horrible mess. Seriously look at an Inter chip set and go Raid 5 on three disk drives. One dies you pull it out and put a new one in and continue to run without rebuilding the system. Disk drive performance is not especially important for Trainz.

22 inch monitor will kill your performance, Samsung syncmaster 906bw 2 ms 19 inch wide screen is reasonable. 1440 by 900 native resolution. You normally run native resolution on these things anything else looks terrible. The 22 inch monitors have more pixels which in turn means you need more cpu and video card for Trainz.

Vista has some memory issues at the moment with video cards, especially with 640MB video cards. XP is better for Trainz until they get this sorted out. Nvidia is aware of the issue, Microsoft have released a patch but it's still not as good performance wise as XP.

I'm not clear which motherboard you are putting this on. Look at things like an Antec case, and a decent power supply there is one very quiet Antec case that comes with a 550 watt power supply. Add in a APC UPS.

There is some hardware benchmarking going on at the moment, you might like to see what Overmars comes up with score wise before purchasing he has a similar rig. Also benchmark your current system to get an estimate of performance you have at the moment to see if the new system would be that much faster.

Cheerio John

overmars
August 17th, 2007, 06:00 PM
Sorry john ive given up with the H line evan with a freash install it still crashes. :confused:

johnwhelan
August 17th, 2007, 06:37 PM
Sorry john ive given up with the H line evan with a freash install it still crashes. :confused:

Since your machine is close to what lo_poly is proposing could we find something that runs on your machine then build a session and modify the .bat file? Either TC or TRS2006 should be doable. Then I'll try it on mine and we can do a rough compare.

Thanks John

overmars
August 17th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Sure ill post in your other thread.

ejlynch
August 17th, 2007, 09:22 PM
Lo poly

It probably depends which part of the Universe you intend to purchase your computer BUT a friend of mine bought a similar computer as you have mentioned for about $2 K. ( Australia )


cheers
errol

Euphod
August 17th, 2007, 09:40 PM
You can Google each piece of hardware you are considering......that will provide you with many links to different pricing services.

Usually New Egg and Zip Zoom Fly will have the best price among reputable E Tailers, but New Egg has been slipping a bit lately.....

Ed

Lo_Poly
August 17th, 2007, 11:37 PM
AAAGH

Look, forget the first post, what I am trying to say is that I have NO idea how to build a computer even if I had to do it to save my life! I mean, WTH would "250-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 PC2 6400" mean? "RAID"? "4×240pin"?? "BURST TRANSFER RATE: 33.3 MB/s Ultra DMA33 Mode 2"???? Don't ask me, I don't know! :'( And my fear is I'm going to build a system that has parts that won't even work, stuff I don't need, or just a huge mess. And on a sidenote, don't bring up monitor size or Vista, as I really do have my mind set on Vista and a large monitor.

I don't mean to sound rude if I do there. ;) Just I'm hopeless with building computers from the ground up. Those sites like HP, with customizing, tell you what you are getting in a to-point simple explanation. These just give you a lot of weird info only computer saavy people would understand.

I would like for someone to work their magic to get as powerful as possible computer for $2,500 USD or less, perferrably inside this case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=11-119-118-01.jpg%2c11-119-118-02.jpg%2c11-119-118-03.jpg%2c11-119-118-04.jpg%2c11-119-118-05.jpg%2c11-119-118-06.jpg%2c11-119-118-07.jpg%2c11-119-118-08.jpg%2c11-119-118-10.jpg%2c11-119-118-11.jpg%2c11-119-118-12.jpg%2c11-119-118-13.jpg%2c11-119-118-14.jpg%2c11-119-118-15.jpg%2c11-119-118-16.jpg&CurImage=11-119-118-01.jpg&Depa=0&Description=COOLER+MASTER+Elite+RC-330-KKR1+Black+SECC+ATX+Mid+Tower+Computer+Case+350W+P ower+Supply+-+Retail).

Sorry for the misunderstanding :confused:

Euphod
August 18th, 2007, 01:01 AM
Try this:

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/MHGSBG/article.php/3684486

Of course, none of this will help you if you don't know how to assemble a PC. It's easier than you think, though, you shouldn't be intimidated by it.

I will question your decision to go with Vista, but I suppose that's your business.

Ed

ejlynch
August 18th, 2007, 01:40 AM
my 64 bit machine with 64 bit Vista loves TC and CMP with video card drivers for 64 bit Vista.
You should be able to get heaps for $ 2500.

errol

jdenm8
August 18th, 2007, 02:24 AM
If you want to build a PC, You can buy "For Dummies" books on how to do it and the hardware you get usually has instructions on how to install it. Most of it is pretty straight forward hardware wise, (If it looks like it goes there, it probably does) It's when you get to drivers it gets a bit messy. PS. I reckon a PC like that would cost upwards of $2400AUD, Pre built, $3000AUD maybe. But hey, that's Australian.

Capt_Scarlet
August 18th, 2007, 02:55 AM
Lo_Poly, That computer case is a good choice, I have it and I am very happy with it. As to building your own PC Iam sure you could do it, but I would suggest that you do some research on the various options by reading reviews from reputable web sites so that you learn the terminology and what works from a price /performance point of view.

The main sites I would suggest are -

http://www.anandtech.com/ - they have regular buying guides eg http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=2998 that might help. There are others as well which you should look at.

http://www.hardocp.com/ - has good reviews based on real world usage of various components or prebuilt systems which can help you determine if something is worth your money

http://techreport.com/ - also has good reviews on components etc

http://www.tomshardware.com/us/ - good articles as well but I prefer the others.

These sites should also have guides on how to build a system as well.

Unfortunately there is no quick way to get this knowledge on what you should buy and everyone will give you an opinion, right or wrong. I would suggest going to a reputable PC shop in your area and ask them for advice as well on what will work and what wont. Also ask if they offer a service to put the pc together from parts you have bought ( no harm in asking) if you not sure you want to do it yourself.

Also look at Dell and Hp etc and price the pc as a guide.

I bought my Pc earlier this year and thought about doing it myself but in the end I bought it from a good local PC shop that I had used before as I was more comfortable doing that way compared to the possible risk of doing it myself. I selected the parts I wanted with their advice on whether they would work together and they put it together.

Iam sorry that I didnt really answer your question but I hope this helps you.

John

p.s. Of the parts you have mentioned the only one I would question the need for is the quad core processor. You could probably get a faster dual core ( which would be better for programs written for single core eg TRS2006 etc )cheaper than the quad core. While quad core is the way things are going in processors there are still only a very few programs ( eg video processing ) that can actually use all the cores (the same applies to dual core as well ), although that will probably change over the next few years.
Also there is not much point in having 4GB of memory and a 32bit operating system, either just get 2GB or opt for a 64bit operating system (but there can possibly be more compatibility problems with 64bit, though it is getting better).

big_b
August 18th, 2007, 04:28 AM
AAAGH

Look, forget the first post, what I am trying to say is that I have NO idea how to build a computer even if I had to do it to save my life! I mean, WTH would "250-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 PC2 6400" mean? "RAID"? "4×240pin"?? "BURST TRANSFER RATE: 33.3 MB/s Ultra DMA33 Mode 2"???? Don't ask me, I don't know! :'( And my fear is I'm going to build a system that has parts that won't even work, stuff I don't need, or just a huge mess. And on a sidenote, don't bring up monitor size or Vista, as I really do have my mind set on Vista and a large monitor.

I don't mean to sound rude if I do there. ;) Just I'm hopeless with building computers from the ground up. Those sites like HP, with customizing, tell you what you are getting in a to-point simple explanation. These just give you a lot of weird info only computer saavy people would understand.

I would like for someone to work their magic to get as powerful as possible computer for $2,500 USD or less, perferrably inside this case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=11-119-118-01.jpg%2c11-119-118-02.jpg%2c11-119-118-03.jpg%2c11-119-118-04.jpg%2c11-119-118-05.jpg%2c11-119-118-06.jpg%2c11-119-118-07.jpg%2c11-119-118-08.jpg%2c11-119-118-10.jpg%2c11-119-118-11.jpg%2c11-119-118-12.jpg%2c11-119-118-13.jpg%2c11-119-118-14.jpg%2c11-119-118-15.jpg%2c11-119-118-16.jpg&CurImage=11-119-118-01.jpg&Depa=0&Description=COOLER+MASTER+Elite+RC-330-KKR1+Black+SECC+ATX+Mid+Tower+Computer+Case+350W+P ower+Supply+-+Retail).

Sorry for the misunderstanding :confused:

I had my first custom built PC done about 18mths.I did a web search for ( high end gaming pc ) found something close to what I wanted in specs & price & then took all the prices to my local PC shop & said what can you build it for? I ended up with a PC a bit better as they got the parts at trade price which allowed me to slightly upgrade on a few things & remain in budget.Mine was based on AMD 939 socket so I'm now looking to upgrading to ( am2 6000 x 2 cpu ga-m59sli-s5 mobo + ram ) about $550-$600 as 939 is no longer supported & evry little in the way of parts now.

Dave

johnwhelan
August 18th, 2007, 07:25 AM
AAAGH

Look, forget the first post, what I am trying to say is that I have NO idea how to build a computer even if I had to do it to save my life! I mean, WTH would "250-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 PC2 6400" mean? "RAID"? "4×240pin"?? "BURST TRANSFER RATE: 33.3 MB/s Ultra DMA33 Mode 2"???? Don't ask me, I don't know! :'( And my fear is I'm going to build a system that has parts that won't even work, stuff I don't need, or just a huge mess. And on a sidenote, don't bring up monitor size or Vista, as I really do have my mind set on Vista and a large monitor.

I don't mean to sound rude if I do there. ;) Just I'm hopeless with building computers from the ground up. Those sites like HP, with customizing, tell you what you are getting in a to-point simple explanation. These just give you a lot of weird info only computer saavy people would understand.

I would like for someone to work their magic to get as powerful as possible computer for $2,500 USD or less, perferrably inside this case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=11-119-118-01.jpg%2c11-119-118-02.jpg%2c11-119-118-03.jpg%2c11-119-118-04.jpg%2c11-119-118-05.jpg%2c11-119-118-06.jpg%2c11-119-118-07.jpg%2c11-119-118-08.jpg%2c11-119-118-10.jpg%2c11-119-118-11.jpg%2c11-119-118-12.jpg%2c11-119-118-13.jpg%2c11-119-118-14.jpg%2c11-119-118-15.jpg%2c11-119-118-16.jpg&CurImage=11-119-118-01.jpg&Depa=0&Description=COOLER+MASTER+Elite+RC-330-KKR1+Black+SECC+ATX+Mid+Tower+Computer+Case+350W+P ower+Supply+-+Retail).

Sorry for the misunderstanding :confused:

OK but that case only has a 350 watt power supply and additionally it probably lacks the fans you need to run this beast to keep it cool. Translated it won't work and may damage your components.

Basically start with a good motherboard, ASUS or INTEL, you want the best Vista drivers, the ones with the fewest problems, read tomshardware.com articles, they recently put a few systems together for a reasonable price. Don't worry about the Jargon, www.crucial.com will tell you which memory will work with your motherboard.

For you disk drives are irrelevant, SATA 3.0 is probably the best but more important Western digital come with a five year warrenty. 320 mb min and I'd go with 2 but do not use RAID, for you it's probably too complicated and you don't need the hassle.

By the way you can either have a big monitor or high frames per second. 1024 by 768 is 786,432 pixels. 1920 by 1200 is 2,304,000 pixels. This means your cpu and video card have to work three to four times as hard to get the same frames per second and it gets worse than that because now you need to transfer three to four times the amount of data around and you start to hit the 2 gig memory limit which limits you plus the 640 mb of video memory, you need something like 2 gigs on the video card etc. The whole system runs warmer which means special liquid cooling systems etc. This is more a law of physics thing than anything else limited by the power of computers at the moment.

Cheerio John

Capt_Scarlet
August 18th, 2007, 08:09 AM
Yes you do need at least a good approx 500 watt or more ( mine is 620 watt )power supply with that graphics card, though my exact same case didnt come with a power supply ( its normally optional ). The case has very good air flow, though you might want to get at least a second case fan.

John

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 01:38 PM
Here is the case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=11-119-118-01.jpg%2c11-119-118-02.jpg%2c11-119-118-03.jpg%2c11-119-118-04.jpg%2c11-119-118-05.jpg%2c11-119-118-06.jpg%2c11-119-118-07.jpg%2c11-119-118-08.jpg%2c11-119-118-10.jpg%2c11-119-118-11.jpg%2c11-119-118-12.jpg%2c11-119-118-13.jpg%2c11-119-118-14.jpg%2c11-119-118-15.jpg%2c11-119-118-16.jpg&CurImage=11-119-118-01.jpg&Depa=0&Description=COOLER+MASTER+Elite+RC-330-KKR1+Black+SECC+ATX+Mid+Tower+Computer+Case+350W+P ower+Supply+-+Retail)

Here is the power supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16817182044)

Here is the motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127030&Tpk=IP35%2bPro%2bMotherboard)

What are your opinions...

Capt_Scarlet
August 18th, 2007, 02:13 PM
The case is a good one its what I have and I like it.

The power supply - I havent heard of this brand so others can comment on that. It is better to make sure you have a descent psu with a 8800GTS etc so it could be worthwhile paying a little extra to get a good quality one. The one I have is http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139002

The motherboard I havent come across as it is new and I usually buy Asus. I suggest doing a search for some reviews on it if there are any, to check out its pro's and con's.

John

johnwhelan
August 18th, 2007, 02:22 PM
Here is the case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?Image=11-119-118-01.jpg%2c11-119-118-02.jpg%2c11-119-118-03.jpg%2c11-119-118-04.jpg%2c11-119-118-05.jpg%2c11-119-118-06.jpg%2c11-119-118-07.jpg%2c11-119-118-08.jpg%2c11-119-118-10.jpg%2c11-119-118-11.jpg%2c11-119-118-12.jpg%2c11-119-118-13.jpg%2c11-119-118-14.jpg%2c11-119-118-15.jpg%2c11-119-118-16.jpg&CurImage=11-119-118-01.jpg&Depa=0&Description=COOLER+MASTER+Elite+RC-330-KKR1+Black+SECC+ATX+Mid+Tower+Computer+Case+350W+P ower+Supply+-+Retail)

Here is the power supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16817182044)

Here is the motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127030&Tpk=IP35%2bPro%2bMotherboard)

What are your opinions...

I'm unclear why you have decided on this case.

Power supply read the power supply tests in tomshardware and in www.anandtech.com. Manufacturers rate their power supplies in different ways to different standards. This 500 watt power supply might be good enough it might not be. Antec tend to be conservative in their power supply ratings. The efficiency is only 65% these day 80% is much more normal. Low efficiency means higher electric bills but more importantly
more heat in the case you need to get rid of. Read through the reviews on the Antec, it should give you things to look for. In particular one major software problem is low voltage, if the voltage isn't high enough typically the disk drive isn't written to reliably. Putting a UPS is the normal way to protect against this and it does depend on your electricity supply. Typical problem appliances are fridges and freezers, when they start up the voltage to the computer will drop. Modern power supplies do protect against low voltage but check to see if it says it does.

Motherboards, I rate them in three classes, top of the line whose manufacturers will release a bios upgrade or driver etc if required, middle tier sort of works well with XP but may not have got their drivers sorted out for Vista, and brand X, driver well it sort of works if you don't want to play games.

Trainz uses drivers and parts of drivers that nothing else does. Intel make the highest quality motherboards but very close behind them come ASUS. both companies take the time and have the money to get the drivers right.

Middle tier have a look at their sites and see if they have updates and tech support forums. Now compare that to ASUS site. A particular motherboard might be OK or it might not as far as drivers are concerned.

Also look for an on board sound processor not on board sound on the motherboard. Saves the cost of a separate sound card.

Sorry to sound negative but it's best you do the research first before purchasing to get an idea what is important and what is not. If you decide to go ahead with your original plan then at least you should have a better understanding of why you have chosen what you have chosen.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 03:30 PM
What would you say about 3 orders of this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145450)

Would it work with the motherboard?

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 03:52 PM
I really need to know whether that memory stick will work with the motherboard. Google isn't bringing up anything. :(

Capt_Scarlet
August 18th, 2007, 04:08 PM
No it wont, you need Dual channel DDR2 800/667/533 Un-buffered Non-ECC memory.

John

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 04:20 PM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220227

How about that memory sticks? If not, what motherboard equal to that of the other I posted would work with these sticks? :mop:

Capt_Scarlet
August 18th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Here is a Abit forum post about that motherboard with the all the info you need re memory and links to some reviews. http://forum.uabit.com/showthread.php?t=124502

John

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 04:37 PM
I read that whole thread, and I don't get a word of it. Is that memory sticks compatible or not?

Capt_Scarlet
August 18th, 2007, 04:48 PM
Well the answer to that is maybe. The brands that Abit say are compatible are listed in that post, but that doesnt mean that it wont work just that they havent tested it. You would have to contact patriot and ask them as that motherboard is new and not listed on their web site as yet.
If you want to be sure then you have to get a brand of memory that Abit says will work.

John

Euphod
August 18th, 2007, 04:49 PM
According to the thread, the following are compatible with that mobo:
Corsair 2GB Dominator DDR2 PC2-8888 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.corsairmicro.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X2048-8888C4DF.pdf)
Corsair 2GB Dominator DDR2 PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS3 (http://www.corsairmemory.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X2048-6400C3DF.pdf)
Corsair 2GB Dominator DDR2 PC2-8500 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.corsairmemory.com/corsair/products/specs/TWIN2X2048-8500C5D.pdf)
Corsair 2GB TwinX DDR2 PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.corsairmemory.com/_datasheets/TWIN2X2048-6400C4.pdf)

OCZ 2GB REAPER HPC Edition DDR2 PC-9200 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr2_pc2_9200_reaper_hpc_edition)
OCZ 2GB REAPER HPC Edition DDR2 PC-8500 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr2_pc2_8500_reaper_hpc_edition)
OCZ 2GB FlexXLC Edition DDR2 PC2-9200 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr2_pc2_9200_flexxlc_edition)
OCZ 2GB SLI-Ready Edition DDR2 PC2-8500 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr2_pc2_8500_sli_ready_edition)
OCZ 2GB Platinum XTC Series DDR2 PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr2_pc2_6400_platinum_dual_channel)

Crucial 2GB Ballistix Tracer DDR2 PC2-8500 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/partspecs.aspx?imodule=BL2KIT12864AL1065)
Crucial 2GB Ballistix DDR2 PC2-8500 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/partspecs.aspx?imodule=BL2KIT12864AA1065)
Crucial 2GB Ballistix DDR2 PC2-8000 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/partspecs.aspx?imodule=BL2KIT12864AA1065) <Discontinued>
Crucial 2GB Ballistix DDR2 PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/partspecs.aspx?imodule=BL2KIT12864AA804)
Crucial 2GB Ballistix DDR2 PC2-5300 (2x1GB) CAS3 (http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/partspecs.aspx?imodule=BL2KIT12864AA663)
Crucial 2GB 10th Anniversary DDR2 PC2-5300 (2x1GB) CAS3 (http://www.crucial.com/promo/index.asp?prog=uslp_ten) (Limited Edition) <Discontinued>

Team 2GB Xtreem DDR2 PC2-9600 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://www.teamgroup.com.tw/xtreem/overclocking/team-xtreem-ddr2-1200mhz-cl-5%115%115%1115/)
Team 2GB Xtreem DDR2 PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.teamgroup.com.tw/xtreem/overclocking/team-xtreem-ddr2-800mhz-cl-4%114%114%1110/)
Team 2GB Xtreem DDR2 PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS3 (http://www.teamgroup.com.tw/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=132&Itemid=349) <Discontinued>

Mushkin 2GB DDR2 Redline XP2-8000 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=361)

CellShock 2GB DDR2 PC2-8000 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://cellshock.flagbit.com/en/products/ddr2/ddr2-1000-cl4.html)
CellShock 2GB DDR2 PC-8000 (2x1GB) CAS5 (http://cellshock.flagbit.com/en/products/ddr2/ddr2-1000-cl5.html)
CellShock 2GB DDR2 PC-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://cellshock.flagbit.com/en/products/ddr2/ddr2-800-cl4.html)

G.Skill 4GB DDR2 PQ PC2-6400 (2x2GB) CAS5 (http://www.gskill.com/en/f2-6400cl5d-pq.html)
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 HZ PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.gskill.com/en/f2-6400phu2-hz.html)
G.Skill 2GB DDR2 HK PC2-6400 (2x1GB) CAS4 (http://www.gskill.com/en/f2-6400cl4d-hk.html)

And I hate to apply any pressure here, but Auran seems to frown on hardware threads.....I would expect this thread to be gone when they return after the weekend!:confused:

Ed

SandwichSpread
August 18th, 2007, 05:11 PM
Whether they frown or not, I bought TC to run on an averagely decent machine of 2 years ago. TC is unplayable, and TRS2006 runs, but I only get 10-14 fps max!!

I appreciate that times change, but the differences between '06 & TC is not so great! I was very unimpressed with TC.

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 05:14 PM
And I hate to apply any pressure here, but Auran seems to frown on hardware threads.....I would expect this thread to be gone when they return after the weekend
Odd... my last hardware thread stayed.

Anyway, I compared the G.Skill 4GB DDR2 PQ PC2-6400 (2x2GB) CAS5 with the Patriot eXtreme Performance 4GB. :)


G.Skill | Patriot

Type: 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM :Type
Capacity: 4GB(2x2GB) :Capacity
Speed: DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) :Speed
Cas Latency: 5 :Cas Latency
Timing: 5-5-5-15 | 5-5-5-12 :Timing
Voltage: 1.8v - 1.9v | 2.0v :Voltage
Heat Spreader: Yes :Heat Spreader

The ones in blue note ones that match perfectly. Both boards appear to be mostly the same, so I think the patriot would work. Your opinion?

johnwhelan
August 18th, 2007, 05:37 PM
Whether they frown or not, I bought TC to run on an averagely decent machine of 2 years ago. TC is unplayable, and TRS2006 runs, but I only get 10-14 fps max!!

I appreciate that times change, but the differences between '06 & TC is not so great! I was very unimpressed with TC.

Be nice have a look here http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=14993 and try it for me. On my machine TC runs a little faster than TRS2006. Are you using the same trainzoptions.txt file etc?

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 07:32 PM
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3928/configurationvd3.jpg

That's what I've got after hours of looking here and on google. If course, it isn't complete.

Edit: How would this sound card do? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102006

johnwhelan
August 18th, 2007, 08:04 PM
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3928/configurationvd3.jpg

That's what I've got after hours of looking here and on google. If course, it isn't complete.

Edit: How would this sound card do? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102006

Purely a personal opinion and not something I would normally say in a forum. Most of it is second rate. Mind you the CPU looks OK.


Cheerio John

SandwichSpread
August 18th, 2007, 09:06 PM
Be nice have a look here http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=14993 and try it for me. On my machine TC runs a little faster than TRS2006. Are you using the same trainzoptions.txt file etc?

Cheerio John

Well I am amazed, although I have at least a shortage of 256Mb in memory for TC (768Mb) and my Gfx card is only a 128Mb MX-400!!

The install is a standard install as I tend not to get too clever with Auran as they invented the DLS which is highly over complicated. So TC is "as installed out of the box". It takes up to 5 minutes to load when running the game compared to 15secs(ish) for '06!! Note: Unacceptable for a game.

I will have a look at your link tomorrow John as it's a "tad" late here now though and reply then. Hopefully something nice! :hehe:

Chris

GP_38-2
August 18th, 2007, 09:58 PM
Drop that Rosewill cap Power supply,
Get an Antec, Thermaltake, or Ultra PSU AT LEAST 600W
Also drop the RAM Patriot has some serious quality issues
Kingston, or Crucial are the way to go.

Lo_Poly
August 18th, 2007, 11:36 PM
Drop that Rosewill cap Power supply,
Get an Antec, Thermaltake, or Ultra PSU AT LEAST 600W
I already know I'm going to need a bigger PSU with how all the parts keep adding on. :eek:


Also drop the RAM Patriot has some serious quality issues. Kingston, or Crucial are the way to go.

It has a lot of good reviews, and if it's a DOA or anything I can always return it within 30 days.

And will someone please tell me if that soundcard will work?!?

Capt_Scarlet
August 19th, 2007, 02:19 AM
The creative xfi sound card will be work fine and is much better for TRS than onboard sound.

John

johnwhelan
August 19th, 2007, 07:26 AM
Well I am amazed, although I have at least a shortage of 256Mb in memory for TC (768Mb) and my Gfx card is only a 128Mb MX-400!!

The install is a standard install as I tend not to get too clever with Auran as they invented the DLS which is highly over complicated. So TC is "as installed out of the box". It takes up to 5 minutes to load when running the game compared to 15secs(ish) for '06!! Note: Unacceptable for a game.

I will have a look at your link tomorrow John as it's a "tad" late here now though and reply then. Hopefully something nice! :hehe:

Chris

Loading times is more to do with loading from the disk drive. I suspect you computer has been around for a while and the hard drive is fairly full. When you installed TC the operating system has scattered the program across the disk drive. Try uninstalling TC then doing a defrag before reinstalling.

If your disk drive is more than 75% full see if you can delete something or save up and buy a new disk drive.

Once it's loaded into memory you should see roughly the some performance as TRS2006.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 19th, 2007, 10:46 AM
Don't worry, I will get a better PSU.

Anyway, which one of these keyboards would you recomend? I like the glowy keyboard, but I also like ergonomic stuff since I have arthritis.

Option One (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001)

Option (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001) Two (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109160)

Option (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001) Three (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109030)

(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109011)Option (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001) Four (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109011)

GP_38-2
August 19th, 2007, 12:18 PM
it's as simple as this: We can NOT recommend something like that. It is up to you and you alone as to which to buy. Keyboards especially, are something for each individual buy whichever is best for you.

As for the RAM I wouldn't trust a review, at the very east they are a tier 2 (or 3) name, go for the extra bit and get the stuff that has a solid history behind them.

Skimp in an area and I guarantee it will come back to bite later on (don't get me started on what can happen).


P.S. Dump the quad core for a simple (and cheaper) dual core, the quad core isn't near worth the price, and for sure you'll never see ANY performance increase from 2 to 4 cores.
EDIT: just noticed your video card, with a card like the the ABIT Intel board isn't the best choice.
Decent: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127023
Best: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136032

Capt_Scarlet
August 19th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Don't worry, I will get a better PSU.

Anyway, which one of these keyboards would you recomend? I like the glowy keyboard, but I also like ergonomic stuff since I have arthritis.

Option One (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001)

Option (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001) Two (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109160)

Option (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001) Three (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109030)

(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109011)Option (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823175001) Four (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109011)

Either of the microsoft keyboards would be ok. I have a earlier model of the natural ergonomic keyboard and I like it



EDIT: just noticed your video card, with a card like the the ABIT Intel board isn't the best choice.
Decent: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127023
Best: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136032

There are no problems with having a ATI graphics card on a intel based board. The only thing you cant do is have two linked in crossfire mode and if that isn't what he intends to do then it wont matter. The first board you linked to is micro atx board which doesn't fit with his needs. The second board is ok but again if he isn't planning to have two graphics cards its a bit of overkill I think.

John

Lo_Poly
August 19th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Decent: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127023
Best: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136032


Both of those cards have incredibly sub-par ratings. I'm sorry, but it feels too risky. Do you have any other cards that have good ratings you'd reccomend? :)


Either of the microsoft keyboards would be ok. I have a earlier model of the natural ergonomic keyboard and I like it
Ergonomic it is!


There are no problems with having a ATI graphics card on a intel based board. The only thing you cant do is have two linked in crossfire mode and if that isn't what he intends to do then it wont matter. The first board you linked to is micro atx board which doesn't fit with his needs. The second board is ok but again if he isn't planning to have two graphics cards its a bit of overkill I think.

John

I may upgrade to two monitors in the future... but I feel that card is too risky.

Capt_Scarlet
August 19th, 2007, 03:56 PM
I may upgrade to two monitors in the future... but I feel that card is too risky.

Do you mean the motherboard is two risky ? If so you dont need to have two graphics cards if you want to use two monitors one will do as long as it powerful enough. Either the ATI/AMD graphics card or the nvidia 8800 gts can do this unless you are talking about really big monitors.

John

Lo_Poly
August 19th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Do you mean the motherboard is two risky ? If so you dont need to have two graphics cards if you want to use two monitors one will do as long as it powerful enough. Either the ATI/AMD graphics card or the nvidia 8800 gts can do this unless you are talking about really big monitors.

John

Two 22" LCD monitors. BUT IN THE FUTURE!:hehe:

Say, how is this DVD/CD drive? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135143

Capt_Scarlet
August 19th, 2007, 04:42 PM
Its probably fine seeing its from Asus.

John

Lo_Poly
August 19th, 2007, 04:56 PM
I am going to add two of those Asus drives. I also have a Mitsumi thingamajig. What would you recommend I fill the remaining two spots with?
http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-119-118-03.jpg


And this is my current configuration:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7307/newerconfiguv1.jpg

And about the power supply, I will ask what I should get when I have my final build. :cool:

big_b
August 19th, 2007, 05:12 PM
While you guys at it hows this for an upgrade from AMD skt 939 sli
I'm looking at about $550 Aust including 2g 800ddr2 ram

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127003
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103773
dave

Lo_Poly
August 19th, 2007, 05:21 PM
While you guys at it hows this for an upgrade from AMD skt 939 sli
I'm looking at about $550 Aust including 2g 800ddr2 ram

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127003
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103773
dave

If you have questions, please start your own thread.

big_b
August 19th, 2007, 05:43 PM
If you have questions, please make your own thread instead of hijacking another's.

Thought I'd just slip it in as this thread seems to be hanging in there & has not been deleted yet & at least your getting a few answers about building your PC .

Dave

DaSnakke
August 21st, 2007, 01:06 PM
I have paid 1020 euros on a PC and it runs great(not just TRS, any game, including FSX), with all the details set to maximum, full fps.:hehe:

Lo_Poly
August 21st, 2007, 01:14 PM
I suggest changing the motherboard, memory, cpu, graphics card, disk drive, case, monitor, keyboard, UPS and power supply.

It might be sensible to work out what your requirements are first then state those. At the moment you seem to be picking components out of the air. For example keyboards, have you tried a zero pressure keyboard? They can make a big difference for arthritis.

Cheerio John

Thanks for pointing that out. Here are the applications I commonly use:
Firefox 2, Trainz, Google Sketchup, Gmax, Gimp, Trackmania, The Sims 2, Acid Pro 6, WinDVD, Google Earth, Winamp, Interior Designer 7.0, GTR 2, Xpand Rally, SimCity 4.

The ones in bold note ones that are rather CPU intensive, the ones italicized and red simply just kill my machine when I start them. So yes, my computer wants to kill itself right now.

Hopefully that helps. :)

GP_38-2
August 21st, 2007, 01:31 PM
CPU Intensive maybe, but definately does not need a quad core
CPU (not that any of the programs would be able to use more than a single core anyways)
Basically your looking for a gaming level computer. In that case how much money do you have available to spend on this monster?

Lo_Poly
August 21st, 2007, 04:48 PM
CPU Intensive maybe, but definately does not need a quad core
CPU (not that any of the programs would be able to use more than a single core anyways)
Basically your looking for a gaming level computer. In that case how much money do you have available to spend on this monster?

$2,500 USD :wave:

johnwhelan
August 21st, 2007, 06:29 PM
$2,500 USD :wave:

Now we can start to sketch something out.

I suggest we sketch then you question and we explain why we suggest an item or some one comes back in with a better idea.

My shopping list not built to a price but more for reliabilty and quality. You'll have to do the sums.
ASUS P5B Deluxe LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX $200
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131045)

, an 8800 GTS 640 mb card $370, Intel dual core processor
Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 Conroe 2.66GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6750 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115029) $200, 2-2.5 gigs of memory


4GB kit (2GBx2) DDR2 PC2-5300 CT2KIT25664AA667 $270 from crucial
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146526)


. Personally I'd drop it in an Antec Sonata III case $120, looking at the power supply it's good enough not to need a UPS.

Disk drives personally I'd go with 3 500 mb drives set up in Raid 5 probably Seagate with 5 year warrenty, say $350 for the three, the Intel chip set should be able to handle this easily. Start it on one drive then add in the others and tell it to upgrade to RAID 5, gives you 1,000 mb of space and very fast reading times. SATA 3.0 is limited by the internal motherboard buses. Check if SATA 3 actually buys you anything in tomshardware.

The motherboard can go to 8 gigs of memory by the way, the built-in power supply should handle the 8800 GTS easily. http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/08/21/energy-efficient_computing_options/ has a list of graphics cards and their power draw.

Video go wide screen 16:10 ratio for ergonomic reasons like you have two eyes side by side. If you sit closer to the monitor a smaller screen will show as much detail as a larger one. With a TV more than one person watches at once,with a computer usually only one person watches so why pay more for a larger screen? Samsung have a nice 2 ms 2000:1 contrast 19 inch for around $200

The aim on the memory is to use 2 gigs for Trainz and about a gig for the operating system unless you go to a 64 bit operating system.

OK folks now pick holes in it.

Cheerio John

Lucrativus
August 21st, 2007, 06:49 PM
Another suggestion - look in your locality for one of the smaller stores that sell all the bits and pieces for a computer, one that has been around for a while and seems reliable - STAY AWAY from the bigger stores that sell pre-built machines, they will sell you the most expensive machine they can and in all probabilty is not really what you want.

Talk to the local store about the type of machine you want and what you intend to do with it. Ask them for a price to build a machine from the parts available in their store. You should end up with a decent machine at a much lower cost than the PC World type stores.

Where I live there is a good local supplier who will build a machine to the customer's spec and only charge £30 ($60US) for the building and testing.

Hope this helps because what you are doing now is fraught with danger - inexperience with a full build, incompatible parts, problems with installation etc - YES, it is easy to build your own machine from scratch (when you have done it a few times) but you can do it wrong and end up ruining a piece of kit costing a lot of money. Shops will not take an item back if YOU have blown it.

johnwhelan
August 21st, 2007, 06:56 PM
Another suggestion - look in your locality for one of the smaller stores that sell all the bits and pieces for a computer, one that has been around for a while and seems reliable - STAY AWAY from the bigger stores that sell pre-built machines, they will sell you the most expensive machine they can and in all probabilty is not really what you want.

Talk to the local store about the type of machine you want and what you intend to do with it. Ask them for a price to build a machine from the parts available in their store. You should end up with a decent machine at a much lower cost than the PC World type stores.

Where I live there is a good local supplier who will build a machine to the customer's spec and only charge £30 ($60US) for the building and testing.

Hope this helps because what you are doing now is fraught with danger - inexperience with a full build, incompatible parts, problems with installation etc - YES, it is easy to build your own machine from scratch (when you have done it a few times) but you can do it wrong and end up ruining a piece of kit costing a lot of money. Shops will not take an item back if YOU have blown it.

I'd back this idea as well. It's very easy to destroy something with static.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 21st, 2007, 07:19 PM
I went ahead and nuked my shopping cart.

Anyway, I stand by these as if I were a Japanese soldier in WWII.
Windows Vista Ultimate
22" LCD Monitor
5.1 Stereo System
Wireless (ergonomic if possible) keyboard and wireless 4-button or more laser mouseAnyway, let's get started with the case. Which one of these would be best?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811166030
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119039

If you had a different case in mind, bear in mind I don't like insane graphics on the case or those neon lights. Just a simple Silver/Black color scheme. Also, (at least) 4 5.25 bays and 2 3.5 bays minimum. :)


I'd back this idea as well. It's very easy to destroy something with static.

Cheerio John

I know a reliable technique for grounding yourself.

jaleel
August 21st, 2007, 07:54 PM
As buggy as Vista is, not to mention expensive, I don't know why in the world I see so many people recommending it!? Stay away from Vista or Me II, as it's also known, till they get it working properly.

There is no benefit versus XP with Vista unless you really want the eye candy which again you can get in XP. Also XP runs games faster and crashes far less than Vista.

Now to each his own but I would stay as far away from Vista as possible it's a hit and miss situation for everyone. For some it works good and for others it's a total disaster! With in the last few months I've converted 5 computers from Vista to XP because of software issues and hardware issues even with stuff that's suppose to work with Vista.

Vista is not a good buy right now no matter what hardware you are using with it.

Having said that look into Dell for your LCDs they has some nice ones at a fairly good price too! I'll reply back once I look around for stuff.

Lo_Poly
August 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM
As buggy as Vista is, not to mention expensive, I don't know why in the world I see so many people recommending it!? Stay away from Vista or Me II, as it's also known, till they get it working properly.

There is no benefit versus XP with Vista unless you really want the eye candy which again you can get in XP. Also XP runs games faster and crashes far less than Vista.

Now to each his own but I would stay as far away from Vista as possible it's a hit and miss situation for everyone. For some it works good and for others it's a total disaster! With in the last few months I've converted 5 computers from Vista to XP because of software issues and hardware issues even with stuff that's suppose to work with Vista.

Vista is not a good buy right now no matter what hardware you are using with it.

Having said that look into Dell for your LCDs they has some nice ones at a fairly good price too! I'll reply back once I look around for stuff.

Did you even read what I posted? And I don't like dell at all. :sleep:

jaleel
August 21st, 2007, 08:27 PM
Did you even read what I posted? And I don't like dell at all. :sleep:

Nope didn't read everything you wrote, back tracking now. I don't do Dell either but they have highly rated LCDs at good prices. Remember, just because it's labeled Dell or Sony or Whatever doesn't mean it's actually made by them. Dell use to sell CRT monitors that were re-branded Sony's. Also I noticed in your list you had a DVD-rom drive, if you still have it on your list I would take it off and just get a second DVD Burner as they also play DVDs too.

tdstead
August 21st, 2007, 08:37 PM
Got a 512MB his x1650 IceQ, nice card, never seen one so big, Has A large heat sink feed by a large fan in a box on top of the card and its own exhast port making it quite thick, any way back to the point could not get drivers for it for Win98, Tech's fault, got me the wrong card.

Now getting probly tonight a FX6200 thats still supported by Nvidea so should be able to load the latest drivers and stop 2004 and classic complaing about the drivers being too old.

Tech is going to look for a xp2600+ processor instead of the 2000 I have running at 1.63 GHz to go on my board as well if he can find one

I think this should keep me happy

Tom


Tom

GP_38-2
August 21st, 2007, 08:40 PM
Since Intel seems to be the plan:
motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131153
CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115029
RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104001
Video Card (could be upgraded to the 8800 GTX 768MB): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143081
Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133018
PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371001
Hard Drives (get 2 stick them in RAID 1) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136039
DVD Burner (get 2) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135146
Mouse and Keyboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126033
Mouse: (wireless) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104203 (wired) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104191

just some suggestions.

ZapperJet
August 21st, 2007, 08:45 PM
Get the PC with Vista, wipe this disk, install XP.

If not, I guess your out of luck. But please, avoid Vista at all costs.

Now, at first glance at this thread (I didn't read it all, pardon me), I think that your setting your system a bit high for what you actually do.

Quad core is far from what you need and only increases the out of pocket cost. I know how many people imply that "the more cores the better". However, that only applies to multithreading tasks, none of which support quad core, only dual at most.

Looking at the machine posted at the beginning of this thread, I'd have to say it was built not for a gamer, but for a 3D developer, software writer, etc. (all it needs is Linux)

Then, looking at what you actually do with your system, I'd say that you need a system no more complex then mine (see sig). SketchUp is not an advanced modeling and rendering system, nor is GMAX. Google Earth is barely intensive on my machine, and will only gain speed by increasing your network bandwidth. Sims 2 performs fine on my system, no hiccups at all. Gimp runs well too.

I don't know about the rest of the items listed, so I can't say if they are intensive enough to qualify for Quad-core or are even Multithreading for dual-core.

On that note, a recent study from TomsHardware shows that Quad-core's overclocked to the same speeds as it's dual-core counterpart perform 50% faster in application use. However, they perform almost identical in gaming performance.


Anyway, it's up to you. I didn't have $2500 to spend on for my new system, but I bought a machine (assembled, that is) worthy of most games (Including Oblivion). And it performs well in all applications I throw at it, and renders very quickly in Blender3D + YafRay 0.0.9.

Cheers,
John

GP_38-2
August 21st, 2007, 11:38 PM
If you really want to go to the extreme:
motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131153
CPU:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028
RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104001
Video Card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143093
Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133018
PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371001
Hard Drives (get 2 stick them in RAID 1): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136073
DVD Burner (get 2) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135146
Mouse and Keyboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126033
Mouse: (wireless) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104203 (wired) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104191

There are ways to go higher, but the price goes up, and the above setup will run more than anything you've listed as a program.

SuperFudd
August 22nd, 2007, 01:21 AM
tstead,

I also have a 2000+ (see below sig). I thought of uprading to 3000+, the most my M.B. can handle but after reading reviews and such I decided I would probably not see a difference.
As for your upgrade to an FX6200, I supose that depends on what you are uprading from.
I say try those changes and see what happens. If your power supply is strong enough, it won't hurt.

johnwhelan
August 22nd, 2007, 01:12 PM
I went ahead and nuked my shopping cart.

Anyway, I stand by these as if I were a Japanese soldier in WWII.

Windows Vista Ultimate
22" LCD Monitor
5.1 Stereo System
Wireless (ergonomic if possible) keyboard and wireless 4-button or more laser mouseAnyway, let's get started with the case. Which one of these would be best?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811166030
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119039

If you had a different case in mind, bear in mind I don't like insane graphics on the case or those neon lights. Just a simple Silver/Black color scheme. Also, (at least) 4 5.25 bays and 2 3.5 bays minimum. :)



I know a reliable technique for grounding yourself.

I think we need to start with the video card strangely enough. It's about the most power hungry component and will define the requirements for the power supply and the case.

I suggested a single 8800GTS 640 mb since it only needs 128 watts under load 71 watts idle compared to 205/93 watts for the 8800 GTX with bells and whistles. Some one once added up the textures in a single Trainz scene to be about 700 mb so the 640 mb video card is a fairly good match.

If we are going 22 inch monitor what is the native resolution? Is that the resolutino we will be running at? We need to get a feel for how many frames per second we are aiming for. I'd say 40 fps average min on the TC benchmark.

By the way there is a issue with Vista at the moment which is it duplicates the memory on the video card in main memory. Effectively reducing the amount of memory available to games, plus it takes up more memory any way. Memory is a Trainz bottleneck. XP really is faster and better suited to 32 bit games. If you want to go Vista Ultimate has very few advantages over one of the cheaper versions, and most of these are applicable to enterprises and concern the management of a large number of PCs.

Buying a case with a power supply such as the Antec means some one has done some work on the thermals inside also it costs less to ship one package rather than two so there are cost savings there as well. The Sonata should handle the GTS8800 but I'd hesitate a bit before putting in one or two GTXs.

I think you'll find that the ASUS P5B Premium Vista Edition has 5.1 sound built-into the sound processor. Have a look at some reviews. This board has been designed with Vista in mind and can take 8 gigs of memory when you want to move to 64 bit Vista.

Thoughts?

Cheerio John

ZapperJet
August 22nd, 2007, 02:28 PM
As far as PSU goes, the system I'm running (see sig) runs very well on an Ultra 600W PSU with one 400GB SATA Drive (too long to put in sig).

If you wanted to be prepared to upgrade to 2 cards in the future (which is why I bought an SLI mobo), then a 700W+ PSU is recommended.

Cheers,
John

Lo_Poly
August 22nd, 2007, 03:16 PM
Pardon my french, but I kinda prefer ATi. Better and actually sorta less expensive.

The SAMSUNG 226BW Black 22" 2 ms (GTG) DVI Widescreen LCD Monitor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16824001096) is the monitor I chose.

I think I'd like to have at least 30-20 fps in horridly detailed areas on maps. You know, the areas so detailed it lowers your fps by 10 fps or something. :confused:

The COOLER MASTER CM Stacker STC-T01-UWK Black/ Silver Aluminum / Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811119039) is the case I decided to go with. Lots of room for expansion.

johnwhelan
August 22nd, 2007, 05:13 PM
As far as PSU goes, the system I'm running (see sig) runs very well on an Ultra 600W PSU with one 400GB SATA Drive (too long to put in sig).

If you wanted to be prepared to upgrade to 2 cards in the future (which is why I bought an SLI mobo), then a 700W+ PSU is recommended.

Cheers,
John

Could you run the benchmark?

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=14993

If you don't have TC we can find another session somewhere. That should give us something to see how the GTS works with Trainz.

thanks John

Lo_Poly
August 22nd, 2007, 05:17 PM
Still wanting to build that computer. And John if you're curious, this computer I'm on gets 14fps average. In highly detailed areas it will go below 1 fps. I've seen 1 Frame per 20 seconds a few times actually. :eek:

johnwhelan
August 22nd, 2007, 05:48 PM
Pardon my french, but I kinda prefer ATi. Better and actually sorta less expensive.

The SAMSUNG 226BW Black 22" 2 ms (GTG) DVI Widescreen LCD Monitor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16824001096) is the monitor I chose.

I think I'd like to have at least 30-20 fps in horridly detailed areas on maps. You know, the areas so detailed it lowers your fps by 10 fps or something. :confused:

The COOLER MASTER CM Stacker STC-T01-UWK Black/ Silver Aluminum / Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811119039) is the case I decided to go with. Lots of room for expansion.

OK top of the line computer

Hi John, I have run a couple of tests
my normal settings = Antialias setting = 4 Anisotropic filter= 16 1280x1024 res. All Trainz options max.


Result using TC/Driver=

TrainzLogEnd> Averaged 69.832472fps over 300.290100sec

DaveW

__________________
Intel core2 duo E6600(2x2.40Ghz).ASUS P5N32-E mobo. Nvidia 8800GTX 768Mb. 2Gb DDR2 667Mhz. Soundblaster X-FI . XP Professional

With 1,310,720 pixels.

You want the same performance or say 60 fps on the 22 inch Samsung 1680 by 1050 1,764,000 pixels. Nice monitor by the way, does the top end HDTV 1050. The benchmark is quite low end but to get the same performance you need another 50% more on than this cpu and video card. Don't forget Vista currently will cost you about 15%-20% performance hit.

A GTS is about $380 the GTX about $600. An ATI 2900 isn't as fast as a GTX but at 205 watts draws more current than even the overclocked GTX at 200 watts. This pushes up your power supply requirements and your cooling requirements substantially. You are out of the "Package" range so start looking for 700 watts to 1000 watts power supply and water cooling.

Wait six months and new cooler solutions might be around. By the way I can build a built up area that will run 1 fps on any machine no matter how fast.

The package range will give you substantially more fps than your current machine. To get 10% more you start to double the cost.

Those are the trade offs. I'd go 19 inch monitor 1440 by 900 it lowers the requirements and costs substantially or you can back the sliders off max.

Cheerio John

tdstead
August 22nd, 2007, 05:51 PM
Got the card alright, says its win98 compatible with win98 drivers but windows wants no part of it, tech thinks something has happened to windows its self, suggesting complete backup and restart from scratch, will proby do it when I get in the mood, I have so much stuff loaded on my machine that I would have to reload.

Lucky got a DVD writter in the swap deal, Just for intrest checked Trainz World directory with Nero backup I have a 80 meg and it says 29.6 meg left on the drive this is intresting.

Don't konow what I did last night during all these swaps, did crash the computer a little but not in classic but had a problem where built in items were saying missing items, reinstalled all ok, got some of what I had already fixed back from the arcive option ok, looks like thets one thing the fixed real well.

Tom

johnwhelan
August 22nd, 2007, 06:22 PM
Pardon my french, but I kinda prefer ATi. Better and actually sorta less expensive.



Just a comment, I run an ATI 850 XT PE which cost me $600 a couple of years ago. At the time for DirectX ATI where extremely good for performance and price. DirectX came out of Microsoft and ATI put in in their hardware. nVidia now has a decent implementation of DirectX so there is no longer an advantage to running ATI. The 2900 is the most power hungry card on the market by the way which means you have to watch the cooling.

I'm not bias against ATI at all.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 22nd, 2007, 06:23 PM
Got the card alright, says its win98 compatible with win98 drivers but windows wants no part of it, tech thinks something has happened to windows its self, suggesting complete backup and restart from scratch, will proby do it when I get in the mood, I have so much stuff loaded on my machine that I would have to reload.

Lucky got a DVD writter in the swap deal, Just for intrest checked Trainz World directory with Nero backup I have a 80 meg and it says 29.6 meg left on the drive this is intresting.

Don't konow what I did last night during all these swaps, did crash the computer a little but not in classic but had a problem where built in items were saying missing items, reinstalled all ok, got some of what I had already fixed back from the arcive option ok, looks like thets one thing the fixed real well.

Tom

Can you people PLEASE just start your own threads?!


OK top of the line computer

Hi John, I have run a couple of tests
my normal settings = Antialias setting = 4 Anisotropic filter= 16 1280x1024 res. All Trainz options max.


Result using TC/Driver=

TrainzLogEnd> Averaged 69.832472fps over 300.290100sec

DaveW

__________________
Intel core2 duo E6600(2x2.40Ghz).ASUS P5N32-E mobo. Nvidia 8800GTX 768Mb. 2Gb DDR2 667Mhz. Soundblaster X-FI . XP Professional

With 1,310,720 pixels.

You want the same performance or say 60 fps on the 22 inch Samsung 1680 by 1050 1,764,000 pixels. Nice monitor by the way, does the top end HDTV 1050. The benchmark is quite low end but to get the same performance you need another 50% more on than this cpu and video card. Don't forget Vista currently will cost you about 15%-20% performance hit.

A GTS is about $380 the GTX about $600. An ATI 2900 isn't as fast as a GTX but at 205 watts draws more current than even the overclocked GTX at 200 watts. This pushes up your power supply requirements and your cooling requirements substantially. You are out of the "Package" range so start looking for 700 watts to 1000 watts power supply and water cooling.

Wait six months and new cooler solutions might be around. By the way I can build a built up area that will run 1 fps on any machine no matter how fast.

The package range will give you substantially more fps than your current machine. To get 10% more you start to double the cost.

Those are the trade offs. I'd go 19 inch monitor 1440 by 900 it lowers the requirements and costs substantially or you can back the sliders off max.

Cheerio John


I found two good GTX cards. What would you go with? http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130079
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130078

I also happened to notice the mention of a GeForce 9 series on the wikipedia article. Your opinion?

ZapperJet
August 22nd, 2007, 06:46 PM
John,

I'm afraid I don't have TC. However, I can give benchmark results compared to my old machine.

Old Machine:
- AMD Athlon XP 3200+ 2.2Ghz 512kb L2
- ATi X800XT AIW 256mb AGP 8x
- 2GB Corsair DDR400 PC3200 RAM
- Biostar M7NCG 400 Motherboard
- SoundBlaster X-Fi XtremeMusic

In areas where I would previously reach 7 frames per second, I now get 20-30 fps. This is true for most all layouts that I have benched on. This is now the basic "law of performance" in Trainz, so the results are pretty constant.

Lo_Poly,

I know your looking to go ATi, I would not recommend it. This is coming from a guy who has been using ATi since the dark ages, until now. At the last second, I chose to go with the nVidia G80 series (8800) after reading reviews that it runs more efficiently and receives a higher minimum fps than it's ATI counterpart (HD2900XT 512mb). I got it for the same price too.

So far, the G80 has not failed me. The only issues I've noticed are some problems with OpenGL acceleration (at one point OpenGL didn't work at all). This shouldn't affect you in any way if you run TRS in and Google Earth in DirectX mode.

You may wait, however, for the 9xxx series cards. But as of now they are only speculation and will probably be particularly high priced when released.

Cheers,
John

johnwhelan
August 22nd, 2007, 08:09 PM
John,

I'm afraid I don't have TC. However, I can give benchmark results compared to my old machine.

Old Machine:
- AMD Athlon XP 3200+ 2.2Ghz 512kb L2
- ATi X800XT AIW 256mb AGP 8x
- 2GB Corsair DDR400 PC3200 RAM
- Biostar M7NCG 400 Motherboard
- SoundBlaster X-Fi XtremeMusic

In areas where I would previously reach 7 frames per second, I now get 20-30 fps. This is true for most all layouts that I have benched on. This is now the basic "law of performance" in Trainz, so the results are pretty constant.

Lo_Poly,

I know your looking to go ATi, I would not recommend it. This is coming from a guy who has been using ATi since the dark ages, until now. At the last second, I chose to go with the nVidia G80 series (8800) after reading reviews that it runs more efficiently and receives a higher minimum fps than it's ATI counterpart (HD2900XT 512mb). I got it for the same price too.

So far, the G80 has not failed me. The only issues I've noticed are some problems with OpenGL acceleration (at one point OpenGL didn't work at all). This shouldn't affect you in any way if you run TRS in and Google Earth in DirectX mode.

You may wait, however, for the 9xxx series cards. But as of now they are only speculation and will probably be particularly high priced when released.

Cheers,
John

Your old machine is about where I am except my video is a bit faster and my cpu a bit slower. Three times my machine would give us quite respectable performance. Agatha's country session is a bit too slow on mine but not by much. So let's discount the performance by 30% for the 22 inch monitor and we are probably about there with the 8800 GTS. I can still build a layout that will kill the frame per second but for most it will do fine.

My vote then is for the 8800 GTS.

Note to low_poly is that acceptable?

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 22nd, 2007, 08:21 PM
Your old machine is about where I am except my video is a bit faster and my cpu a bit slower. Three times my machine would give us quite respectable performance. Agatha's country session is a bit too slow on mine but not by much. So let's discount the performance by 30% for the 22 inch monitor and we are probably about there with the 8800 GTS. I can still build a layout that will kill the frame per second but for most it will do fine.

My vote then is for the 8800 GTS.

Note to low_poly is that acceptable?

Cheerio John

I chose the EVGA 768-P2-N837-AR GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16814130078).

What next? :)

ZapperJet
August 22nd, 2007, 08:40 PM
Wow, that's quite a card. Why not go for the OC'ed BFG 8800GTS 640mb? It's costs half and pushes about the same-ish power...

Plus I have never heard anything good about EVGA...

Cheers,
John

Lo_Poly
August 23rd, 2007, 12:04 AM
Ok... monitor, case, video card... what's next?

Euphod
August 23rd, 2007, 12:23 AM
Lo Poly must be loaded, throwing money around the way he is.....

The card you have selected is great, but you only need a card like that if you are running games in very high resolutions....are you?

Also, beware the card will fit in your case and not interfere with your HD cage....it's my understanding that the 768 series of 8800's are about 4 inches longer than the motherboard in ATX configuration. The 640's are about the same length as the mobo, and the 320's are shorter still.

The 640's can be OC'ed to the GTX speeds anyway, while saving a couple hundred bucks.

If you have taken all this into consideration, and still want the card you have chosen, then don't bother to respond....that's your call.

Personally, I would recommend the BFG 8800 640 OC2 myself.....400.00 from Zip Zoom Fly.

Ed

Euphod
August 23rd, 2007, 12:25 AM
Ok... monitor, case, video card... what's next?

Oh, yeah....I alomost forgot....you should decide on Mobo, CPU, and RAM before picking out the other stuff.

Ed

GP_38-2
August 23rd, 2007, 12:36 AM
Lo Poly must be loaded, throwing money around the way he is.....

The card you have selected is great, but you only need a card like that if you are running games in very high resolutions....are you?

Also, beware the card will fit in your case and not interfere with your HD cage....it's my understanding that the 768 series of 8800's are about 4 inches longer than the motherboard in ATX configuration. The 640's are about the same length as the mobo, and the 320's are shorter still.

The 640's can be OC'ed to the GTX speeds anyway, while saving a couple hundred bucks.

If you have taken all this into consideration, and still want the card you have chosen, then don't bother to respond....that's your call.

Personally, I would recommend the BFG 8800 640 OC2 myself.....400.00 from Zip Zoom Fly.

Ed
I second Euphod. The 8800 GTX is slightly over rated:
I will also never again recommenda EVGA car after the last run. After a full year of headaches with a DOA card I had to use a BFG and have had 0 problems.

Definatly look into this beauty: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143093
But for all accounts of saving cash: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143081

And I also second checking the measurements inside the case, the 8800 GTS and GTX are very long cards, and the coolmaster may or may not fit a card as long as the GTX

johnwhelan
August 23rd, 2007, 07:15 AM
Ok... monitor, case, video card... what's next?

So far I think you've chosen the monitor and video card now you start to do your home work about the power supply and case.

Will your case fit the video card, does it have enough cooling fans? Have you thought about a water cooling system? How noisey is this thing going to be, you have to live with it after all. Mind you using a pair of Etymotic ER•6 Isolator Earphones would solve that problem and improve the quality of your sound system.

I'd recommend something in the 650 - 700 watt range on the power supply. Try reading www.anandtech.com (http://www.anandtech.com) and doing a search on power supplies. Note in this range a number of power supplies no longer conform to the Intel engineer's specifications, it's called the bleeding edge and you should expect not everything to work perfectly. For example the nVidia drivers have some problems and issues with Vista. Are you going 32 bit or 64 bit by the way?

Most of us will be delighted to learn from your experiences so keep us informed so we can avoid any mistakes you may make.

Thanks John

Lo_Poly
August 23rd, 2007, 12:28 PM
Lo Poly must be loaded, throwing money around the way he is.....

The card you have selected is great, but you only need a card like that if you are running games in very high resolutions....are you?

Also, beware the card will fit in your case and not interfere with your HD cage....it's my understanding that the 768 series of 8800's are about 4 inches longer than the motherboard in ATX configuration. The 640's are about the same length as the mobo, and the 320's are shorter still.

The 640's can be OC'ed to the GTX speeds anyway, while saving a couple hundred bucks.

If you have taken all this into consideration, and still want the card you have chosen, then don't bother to respond....that's your call.

Personally, I would recommend the BFG 8800 640 OC2 myself.....400.00 from Zip Zoom Fly.

Ed

Could you point me to that card?
And also, what do you mean by overclock? :S


I second Euphod. The 8800 GTX is slightly over rated:
I will also never again recommenda EVGA car after the last run. After a full year of headaches with a DOA card I had to use a BFG and have had 0 problems.

Definatly look into this beauty: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143093
But for all accounts of saving cash: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143081

And I also second checking the measurements inside the case, the 8800 GTS and GTX are very long cards, and the coolmaster may or may not fit a card as long as the GTX

Sweet GP. I chose the above one (this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143093)). It's like a hundred less and it had the same stats. You get brownie points. ;)


So far I think you've chosen the monitor and video card now you start to do your home work about the power supply and case.

Will your case fit the video card, does it have enough cooling fans? Have you thought about a water cooling system? How noisey is this thing going to be, you have to live with it after all. Mind you using a pair of Etymotic ER•6 Isolator Earphones would solve that problem and improve the quality of your sound system.

I'd recommend something in the 650 - 700 watt range on the power supply. Try reading www.anandtech.com (http://www.anandtech.com) and doing a search on power supplies. Note in this range a number of power supplies no longer conform to the Intel engineer's specifications, it's called the bleeding edge and you should expect not everything to work perfectly. For example the nVidia drivers have some problems and issues with Vista. Are you going 32 bit or 64 bit by the way?

Most of us will be delighted to learn from your experiences so keep us informed so we can avoid any mistakes you may make.

Thanks John

32-bit. It sounds like less of a pain. Btw I test drived my dad's new Vista computer and vista is awesome. I even installed Trainz on it and it worked fine. Also, I'd prefer to get a PSU after I have all the parts, so I know EXACTLY what I'll need. ;)

SuperFudd
August 23rd, 2007, 12:39 PM
The mother board is next and probably should be first. I am not up to speed on what is currently avalable but do give it allot of thought.

johnwhelan
August 23rd, 2007, 01:50 PM
The mother board is next and probably should be first. I am not up to speed on what is currently avalable but do give it allot of thought.

The top performing cpu is the Intel dual at the moment. Also the intel support chip set allows RAID 5 so stick in three drives and do RAID 5. The advantage is the disks are the slowest component in the computer, about 10,000 times slower than memory. By reading from three disks at once you reduce head movement and get much faster reads. You do get slightly slower writes but if a hard disk dies you just pull it out and put in a new one and let it rebuild the data.

With Vista you want solid drivers so at the moment ASUS intel chip set or Intel motherboard. You'll be taking this beast up to 64 bit within three years so room for 8 gigs on the motherboard makes sense.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 23rd, 2007, 02:57 PM
The top performing cpu is the Intel dual at the moment. Also the intel support chip set allows RAID 5 so stick in three drives and do RAID 5. The advantage is the disks are the slowest component in the computer, about 10,000 times slower than memory. By reading from three disks at once you reduce head movement and get much faster reads. You do get slightly slower writes but if a hard disk dies you just pull it out and put in a new one and let it rebuild the data.

With Vista you want solid drivers so at the moment ASUS intel chip set or Intel motherboard. You'll be taking this beast up to 64 bit within three years so room for 8 gigs on the motherboard makes sense.

Cheerio John

Can you point me to some Intel CPUs and ASUS motherboards you'd recommend?

ZapperJet
August 23rd, 2007, 03:32 PM
Could you point me to that card?
And also, what do you mean by overclock? :S



Here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143081

Overclocking (OC) is a term that means that the card is made to go faster than it's original intent. This particular card is OC'ed 50Mhz on the Core (GPU) speed and 100Mhz on the Memory (VRAM). That may not seem like much, however, such clock increases can result in 30 to 50 percent more performance.

Buying pre-Overclocked card is an easy and cheap way to get fast speeds without the risks of manual overclocking. Pre-overclocked cards and guaranteed to be in stable working condition, which can be an issue with manually overclocked cards.


As far as spending goes, it's always wise, in my opinion, to try to get the most cost effective machine, i.e., a good price/performance match. This will save you headaches later on when technology changes and you have little money to spend on the new expensive hardware.

With Vista and DX10 coming into the market, computers will become a whole lot more expensive in order to keep up with games.

Cheers,
John

johnwhelan
August 23rd, 2007, 03:56 PM
Can you point me to some Intel CPUs and ASUS motherboards you'd recommend?

ASUS P5B Deluxe LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131045)

ASUS P5B Premium Vista Edition LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131164)



Intel BOXDG965OTMKR LGA 775 Intel G965 Express Micro ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121080)


Intel BOXD975XBX2KR LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121059)


are worth comparing, the ASUS ones will normally be a bit cheaper and have have more features. I'd look closely at the Vista one.

cpus just sort the dual core cpus by price and pick one you can afford.

Cheerio John

GP_38-2
August 23rd, 2007, 04:38 PM
Motherbords with expandability:
Gigabyte GA-N650SLI-DS4
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128044
ASUS P5N32-E SLI (nVidia 680i)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131073 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131073)
ASUS Striker Extreme
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131074


CPU's:
Core 2 Duo E6750
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115029
Core 2 Duo E6850
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028

Lo_Poly
August 23rd, 2007, 05:47 PM
ASUS P5B Deluxe LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131045)

ASUS P5B Premium Vista Edition LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131164)



Intel BOXDG965OTMKR LGA 775 Intel G965 Express Micro ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121080)


Intel BOXD975XBX2KR LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121059)


are worth comparing, the ASUS ones will normally be a bit cheaper and have have more features. I'd look closely at the Vista one.

cpus just sort the dual core cpus by price and pick one you can afford.

Cheerio John

I chose the Intel BOXD975XBX2KR LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16813121059) because it has better ratings, an award, and a lot more features and beef to it.

And... Dual Core VS. Quad core? http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

Edit: And Core 2 Duo VS. Core 2 Extreme?! :eek:

ZapperJet
August 23rd, 2007, 06:18 PM
And... Dual Core VS. Quad core? http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif


I assure you, dual core is all that you will ever need.

But your question makes me suspect you didn't read my post in this thread on dual vs. quad.

Cheers,
John

johnwhelan
August 23rd, 2007, 06:29 PM
I chose the Intel BOXD975XBX2KR LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16813121059) because it has better ratings, an award, and a lot more features and beef to it.

And... Dual Core VS. Quad core? http://forums.auran.com/trainz/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

Edit: And Core 2 Duo VS. Core 2 Extreme?! :eek:

Trainz only runs on one core so dual core is fine. Extreme just more expensive and runs hotter. You might get 1 more fps out of the extreme.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 23rd, 2007, 06:33 PM
Trainz only runs on one core so dual core is fine. Extreme just more expensive and runs hotter. You might get 1 more fps out of the extreme.

Cheerio John

Yes but remember, I have some rather cpu hungry programs as I listed back there. I just want to make sure. :confused:

GP_38-2
August 23rd, 2007, 06:35 PM
Dual-core is overkill for the stuff you listed.

However, multi-core CPU's are the current thing so your stuck.


Motherbords with expandability:
Gigabyte GA-N650SLI-DS4
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128044
ASUS P5N32-E SLI (nVidia 680i)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131073 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131073)
ASUS Striker Extreme
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131074


CPU's:
Core 2 Duo E6750
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115029 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115029)
Core 2 Duo E6850
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115028 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028)Any of the above will be more than enough for what you want to run.

EDIT read the reviews on the Intel BOXD975XBX2KR, I wouldn't recommend it, are at the very least sketchy. Also the layout of the motherboard itself is severly flawed, I atually have used a few of these boards, while they do setup it takes some serious time to assemble it (which is why I use ASUS P5N32-SLI mobos for new comps now) I would seriously look into another motherboard.
P.S. The Intel BOXD975XBX2KR is made for ATI video cards, something you want to avoid is mixing ATI mobo/video cards with nVidia mobo/video cards.

Lo_Poly
August 23rd, 2007, 07:04 PM
Dual-core is overkill for the stuff you listed.

However, multi-core CPU's are the current thing so your stuck.

Any of the above will be more than enough for what you want to run.

EDIT read the reviews on the Intel BOXD975XBX2KR, I wouldn't recommend it, are at the very least sketchy. Also the layout of the motherboard itself is severly flawed, I atually have used a few of these boards, while they do setup it takes some serious time to assemble it (which is why I use ASUS P5N32-SLI mobos for new comps now) I would seriously look into another motherboard.

Why do you keep recommending stuff that have large amounts of bad reviews and low ratings and low power? Do you want my computer to run Windows 3.0 or something?? :(

John, a few CPUs I picked out :):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115027
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028

GP_38-2
August 23rd, 2007, 07:08 PM
This one http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115028 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028)

Read the components you're considering. You show no understanding (and you admit it freely) so don't go shooting everything down 24/7. You asked for people's help you're going to get it.

It would appear you have your own plans, so why do you bother asking for help?

johnwhelan
August 24th, 2007, 07:06 AM
Why do you keep recommending stuff that have large amounts of bad reviews and low ratings and low power? Do you want my computer to run Windows 3.0 or something?? :(



It's based on personal experience. He builds a fair number of machines and has found that this combination works for him and gives him satisfied customers at a reasonable cost. I have a different bias in that I prefer reliability so have a tendency to go for a different set of cost / benefit.

Reviews can be useful but you have to be very careful with them. The publisher depends on getting advertising dollars and ideally free systems to review on the companies submitting product. Also to sell magazines, page views etc. they want to give the idea that something is new. If you are an established company that has had good reviews in the past then there is less temptation to submit your product or for the product to be reviewed. No one really wants to say this design created the year before last is really solid and still is good value for money.

Memory is a case in point with aggressive timings. Yes you can get 2% more performance out of them by spending twice as much but in the big picture the bottlenecks are more to do with switching textures in and out of the graphics card. Having 640 Mb of memory on the graphics card no matter what speed cuts down that bottleneck.

Trainz works by running through a series of instructions. It is much more complicated to divide up the instructions over multiple paths unless the system is built that way so currently Trainz like most games or Sims is only capable of using one core or CPU at a time. Work is being done at Microsoft to make using multiple cores easier but at the moment and for the next five years it isn't going to be main stream. The graphics cards on the other hand handle things differently. What are called pipes are in fact CPUs and nVidia is releasing software that enables you to do scientific computation on the graphics cards in parallel much faster that it will run on the CPU.

For the moment on a dual core the operating system can sit on one doing very little say 5% utilisation, Trainz sits on the other at 100% utilisation. On a quad core the operating system sits on one doing very little at say 5% utilisation, Trainz sits on another at 100% utilisation, and the other two sit there doing nothing except giving off heat which is why the dual is clocked faster than the quad, getting the heat off the cpu is the limiting factor for performance.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 24th, 2007, 12:49 PM
So... I can see hints that a dual core is best....... right? :confused:

And I apologize GP for that comment.

GP_38-2
August 24th, 2007, 01:48 PM
As of right now, dual core is the best right now.

Yes there are still single core CPU's available and they still work, however times have changed. While there arent' many programs that can take advantage of the dual core, or even 64-bit CPU's I've noticed that game do indeed run better on 64-bit CPU's (perhaps that 32-bit overhead does something), and dual core's give a better overall performance (again maybe that second core gives a bit of overhead).

Then there is quad core. WOHOOOO! I GOT QUAD CORE!! Yeah sure you just spent $1,000+ for what basically amounts to a pair of Intel Core 2 Duo's mounted on one CPU. Not only do they cost a lot of money ($1,000+), they don't give any sort of performance boost (they may but not for the extra $700+ you spend for the extra two cores).

So in the end: It's all what you can afford. However, for performance for the price, currently, dual-core is the best option.

Lo_Poly
August 24th, 2007, 02:00 PM
[/URL]
[URL]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115027)

That's the CPU I chose. Ok, what next? :)

johnwhelan
August 24th, 2007, 02:09 PM
That's the CPU I chose. Ok, what next? :)

Remind me what we have so far and how much budget you have left or are we continuing without regard to cost?

I think we need memory and hard disk at the moment. for 32 bit operating system we need 2.5 gigs of memory we can go more but the other 1.5 gigs will just add in heat to the system and on this system that's the last thing we want to do. On hard drives the three major approaches are 5 year warrenty, coolest running, or RAID 5 gets better performance but needs three drives, or SATA 3.0 which has about 10-15% more throughput than an ATA drive because of the way it is connected to the cpu but is currently being hyped.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 24th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Remind me what we have so far and how much budget you have left or are we continuing without regard to cost?

I think we need memory and hard disk at the moment. for 32 bit operating system we need 2.5 gigs of memory we can go more but the other 1.5 gigs will just add in heat to the system and on this system that's the last thing we want to do. On hard drives the three major approaches are 5 year warrenty, coolest running, or RAID 5 gets better performance but needs three drives, or SATA 3.0 which has about 10-15% more throughput than an ATA drive because of the way it is connected to the cpu but is currently being hyped.

Cheerio John

Memory: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220227

And could you help with the HDD? I'm confused. :eek:

SandwichSpread
August 27th, 2007, 04:48 AM
A Raid array is not useless ... in a Business Server, but in a games machine (or standalone) you are not only wasting $$$, but also speed and resource in the system.

Chris

johnwhelan
August 27th, 2007, 06:52 AM
A Raid array is not useless ... in a Business Server, but in a games machine (or standalone) you are not only wasting $$$, but also speed and resource in the system.

Chris

Games or standalone machines are normally bottlenecked by the hard drive. The new Intel chip set allows RAID 5 and comes standard on all new intel chip set note not cpu machines.

For memory we worry about the last nanosecond we don't worry so much about hard drives that work in milliseconds. There are 10,000 nanoseconds in a millisecond.

Hard drives have a number of bottlenecks, one is the time it takes to get the head over the correct track. Another is how fast can we get the data off the drive. A third is how fast can we write to the drive. XP by default actually caches disk writes to the drives to speed up the computer.

The big problem for most computers is reading data. To process a 20k word processing document we read in 80 mb+ of program files. So anything we can do to speed up reads is worth doing. Trainz is much the same we read far more data than we write to the drive.

Raid 0 or striping is used by Dell as a default to improve PC performance. By using two heads to read at the same time we get the data in twice as fast and also we will not need to read as many tracks under each head so we get less track to track movement reducing these roughly 8 millisecond delays. Unfortunately this means that if one disk drive dies then you need to rebuild the machine from the operating system up. Bit like a chain the system fails when one link breaks. So RAID 0 gives us better speed at the cost of reliability. Dell and other companies basically give a year's warrenty and statistically both drives will hold up that long. Year two and three is where you might hit a problem.

RAID 1 or mirroring is useful for certain types of database access. It needs two 250 gig drives to give 250 gigs of space but if one drive dies you just copy the data from the other drive onto the replacement drive. There is a performance hit on these systems as the disk access is the same but you have a small performance penalty for using RAID.

RAID 5 is much more interesting, normally used on servers but these days it is cheap enough for PCs. With RAID 5 on a three drive system when we read we spread the load over the three drives. So reads come in about one third of the time. Writes on the other hand are slower since we need to write both the data and to calculate and write out a check digit on a different drive. However if a drive fails then the system can continue to run all the data is either available or can be calculated from the check digits. Replace the failed drive and your system will reload the new drive for you. The cost is one extra hard drive. With three 250 gig drives you get 500 gigs. With four 250 gig drives you get 750 gigs. There is a cost overhead but it's fairly low considering the performance gains on the read side which are substantial.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 27th, 2007, 07:31 AM
Games or standalone machines are normally bottlenecked by the hard drive. The new Intel chip set allows RAID 5 and comes standard on all new intel chip set note not cpu machines.

For memory we worry about the last nanosecond we don't worry so much about hard drives that work in milliseconds. There are 10,000 nanoseconds in a millisecond.

Hard drives have a number of bottlenecks, one is the time it takes to get the head over the correct track. Another is how fast can we get the data off the drive. A third is how fast can we write to the drive. XP by default actually caches disk writes to the drives to speed up the computer.

The big problem for most computers is reading data. To process a 20k word processing document we read in 80 mb+ of program files. So anything we can do to speed up reads is worth doing. Trainz is much the same we read far more data than we write to the drive.

Raid 0 or striping is used by Dell as a default to improve PC performance. By using two heads to read at the same time we get the data in twice as fast and also we will not need to read as many tracks under each head so we get less track to track movement reducing these roughly 8 millisecond delays. Unfortunately this means that if one disk drive dies then you need to rebuild the machine from the operating system up. Bit like a chain the system fails when one link breaks. So RAID 0 gives us better speed at the cost of reliability. Dell and other companies basically give a year's warrenty and statistically both drives will hold up that long. Year two and three is where you might hit a problem.

RAID 1 or mirroring is useful for certain types of database access. It needs two 250 gig drives to give 250 gigs of space but if one drive dies you just copy the data from the other drive onto the replacement drive. There is a performance hit on these systems as the disk access is the same but you have a small performance penalty for using RAID.

RAID 5 is much more interesting, normally used on servers but these days it is cheap enough for PCs. With RAID 5 on a three drive system when we read we spread the load over the three drives. So reads come in about one third of the time. Writes on the other hand are slower since we need to write both the data and to calculate and write out a check digit on a different drive. However if a drive fails then the system can continue to run all the data is either available or can be calculated from the check digits. Replace the failed drive and your system will reload the new drive for you. The cost is one extra hard drive. With three 250 gig drives you get 500 gigs. With four 250 gig drives you get 750 gigs. There is a cost overhead but it's fairly low considering the performance gains on the read side which are substantial.

Cheerio John

What would be a good HDD you'd reccomend? Btw, I need at least 750 GB minimum.

johnwhelan
August 27th, 2007, 09:04 AM
What would be a good HDD you'd reccomend? Btw, I need at least 750 GB minimum.

Personnally I'd just go with the cheapest 5 year warrenty drive of the appropiate size. If you want to go deeper dig in tomshardware.com

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 27th, 2007, 09:39 AM
How's this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145141

johnwhelan
August 27th, 2007, 10:02 AM
How's this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145141


Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (parts): 3 years
Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (labor): 3 yearsbut three of these in Raid 5 gives you the same 1T and 5 year warranty.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148136

The cost is lower and because you spread the reads over three spindles read access is faster. Power consumption is a little higher though.

Cheerio John

Lo_Poly
August 27th, 2007, 10:23 AM
Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (parts): 3 years
Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (labor): 3 yearsbut three of these in Raid 5 gives you the same 1T and 5 year warranty.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148136

The cost is lower and because you spread the reads over three spindles read access is faster. Power consumption is a little higher though.

Cheerio John

I took your suggestion (3 of the seagate), cause it was better than the Hitachi. ;)

What next?

Lo_Poly
August 28th, 2007, 07:56 AM
Alright, I know what UPS I want, I have a keyboard/mouse, and a soundcard.

What else do I need now? Remember, the power supply comes last.

Lo_Poly
September 14th, 2007, 09:18 PM
I need drivers for the Logitech X-540 I have, bad. The package didn't come with any and all my computer is doing is beeping. :confused:

jdenm8
September 16th, 2007, 02:40 AM
You want a decent CPU (at least 2.5Ghz or 1.00Ghz each processor on a multi-core),
Decent Graphics card (Nvidia or ATI)
Decent motherboard (mainboard, maybe intel, I do not have a clue)
DVD ROM drive or writer!!! (you do not need a blueray one, you do not want a CD ROM/Writer drive),
And many other things! (unless they come with the case)

And do not let your motherboard control which processor you buy! It should be the other way around!

Lo_Poly
September 16th, 2007, 02:57 PM
You want a decent CPU (at least 2.5Ghz or 1.00Ghz each processor on a multi-core),
Decent Graphics card (Nvidia or ATI)
Decent motherboard (mainboard, maybe intel, I do not have a clue)
DVD ROM drive or writer!!! (you do not need a blueray one, you do not want a CD ROM/Writer drive),
And many other things! (unless they come with the case)

And do not let your motherboard control which processor you buy! It should be the other way around!

That is no longer the issue, the speakers are the issue! :'(

jdenm8
September 21st, 2007, 07:09 AM
Maybe get some decent Logitech ones BUT NOT THE SURROUND SOUND ONES! They are a waste of money unless they are with an established computer. That is a good brand and they don't need B drivers.

optimit
September 22nd, 2007, 06:39 AM
Hey Pals,

First thing i would like to mention is that Windows Vista Ultimate (32/64bit) even OEM version has downgrade right to Windows XP (32/64bit accordingly). You can order install CD for a funny price at Microsoft or any distributor. Serial number works the same of Vista Ultimate.

And banned pal: check your sound card drivers - i hope you didn't use that from CD provided...and if you've got Creativa card - NEVER EVER put Logitech speakers - it's terrible combination... :( sorry to say that...

seniorchief
September 29th, 2007, 08:31 PM
God Bless, you in your passing Harry, you will be missed.

Damon(The Rocker)

sfrr
September 30th, 2007, 08:47 AM
www.tigerdirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com)

They have good PC parts.