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lovetrainzloathen3v
October 17th, 2018, 06:24 AM
Or at least i believe that is their description.

Went to do a bulk replacement of some really old jaded lineside textures on my ECML clone.

The old texture is used mostly along the trackside. Anyway did the bulk replacement with a nice PBR grass texture.

But when it had completed, the texture had deformed all the lineside terrain and pushed it up over the track bed.

Actually covering a lot of the track. Is this a known problem with PBR textures ?

Thank goodness for the undo function. :eek:

WindWalkr
October 17th, 2018, 07:24 AM
But when it had completed, the texture had deformed all the lineside terrain and pushed it up over the track bed.

Actually covering a lot of the track. Is this a known problem with PBR textures ?

From the broad description, that sounds like expected behaviour. It can be "better" or "worse" depending on the textures you select, but the whole point of parallax is that it allows the texture to vary in height, rather than being entirely flat like the old technique. While a "find and replace" is often a sensible starting place, you're definitely going to want to touch things up afterwards to ensure that your existing scenery and your newly heightmapped terrain actually match up in a sensible manner.

What was the "exact" ground height previously, should now be the "average" ground height. You'll find that the texture is higher in some places and lower in others. Exactly how much variation there is depends on the texture - river stones have a lot of height variation, something like a short grass or a leafy forest floor probably has very little.

chris

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 17th, 2018, 08:49 AM
Thanks for the explanation Chris. So really PBR is not ideal for doing bulk replacements of textures in a pre-existing route ?

Particularly at trackside, where miles of track would need re-smoothing of the terrain.

That is a question not a judgement please.

Mike.

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 17th, 2018, 08:52 AM
Double post sorry. :eek:

WindWalkr
October 17th, 2018, 09:08 AM
So really PBR is not ideal for doing bulk replacements of textures in a pre-existing route ?

Particularly at trackside, where miles of track would need re-smoothing of the terrain.

Eh, "it depends" ?

No, you shouldn't replace one asset with another and then blindly assume that everything is going to be peachy. Any such operation is going to require you to do some footwork to confirm that everything looks like you intend. Parallax textures definitely have more gotchas in this regard since the range of possible problems is wider. That said, bulk replacement is definitely the right place to start when upgrading a route to TRS19 standard. It's just not the right place to end.

I'd also stress that TRS19 (parallax) textures tend to work better in conjunction with TRS19 track than they do with older track.

So in short: Create a throw-away copy of your route. Try out a few TRS19 ground textures. Try out a few TRS19 tracks. Find the ones that work well for your route. Then do your bulk replacements and start eyeballing things to see where it needs touch-up.

hth,

chris

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 17th, 2018, 11:11 AM
Thanks Chris, fully understood now thank you.

More caution required, than with older versions of Trainz and assets.

It was a lovely looking grass texture though. Up close it looked almost real. :cool:

Mike.

WindWalkr
October 17th, 2018, 11:21 AM
It was a lovely looking grass texture though. Up close it looked almost real. :cool:

Obviously depends on the real-world usage of your route, but you might consider having the grass a little way back from the track anyway, in which case you won't have problems with it interfering?

I agree that some of the new textures look amazing. There are also a lot of new options for geometry (eg. clutter effects, turf effects) that you can then overlay as required to really boost the visuals- sometimes a ground texture alone can looks a bit sparse, even if it's a fancy parallax texture.

chris

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 17th, 2018, 12:21 PM
I applied the PBR grass texture originally at the bottom outside edge of an embankment Chris.

But it still managed to push the terrain at the top of the embankment up and over the track bed.

Not to worry, it's a clone of the built in ECML. So even if i do anything half decent to the route.

It's only for my own amusement. ;)

Many thanks for all the info and advice buddy.

Mike.

Paul_Bert
October 17th, 2018, 07:14 PM
Thanks for the explanation Chris. So really PBR is not ideal for doing bulk replacements of textures in a pre-existing route ?

Particularly at trackside, where miles of track would need re-smoothing of the terrain.

Mike.

That's been my experience. I am going through several of my routes and replacing old texture with the new PBR stuff piece by piece so I don't cover up tracks and roads. Some of these new textures are really good and show the potential down the road. Since I use "old" track I am careful not to get the new PBR texture close to the track. Also I have notice that sometimes the old textures and the PBR textures look a little off when they butt up against one another. As time goes on and people begin to develop more PBR textures I see them replacing most of my old textures. For the most part much they are much more realistic.

philskene
October 17th, 2018, 08:07 PM
lovetrainz --

Maybe it might be useful to share my experience. I had a model Trainz layout in T:ANE that I thought it would be easy to convert to TRS19 by just replacing the track and the textures.

The track part was easy, and the new TRS19 track is a vast improvement over the T:ANE track. The PBR textures are more problematic. For areas close to and under the track I found it essential to select PBR textures where the 3D "bump" effect did not cover the sleepers and rails. There are some excellent PBR textures that are suitable at the smallest scale setting. There are no textures that are suitable at any scale setting bigger than smallest setting.

This, for example, works well:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/8rzldkvavtfefib/TRS19_Phootnote%26Fourword_0008.jpg?dl=0

This too:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/71ovl5i4ikua5jj/TRS19%20MannPhromLaramee_16.jpg?dl=0

And:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/7zkn68xxqt1rjf9/TRS19%20InnterKohnNecktion_10.jpg?dl=0

So I did bulk texture replacements and tidied up in the areas next to the track. However, I eventually decided I could do much better. So I stripped out all the T:ANE textures, back to the bare baseboard, and re-textured with just PBR textures. It is a vast improvement. You can see the result here:

https://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?148885-New-TRS19-layout-the-Phootnote-amp-Fourword

As far I'm aware this is the only route on the Download Station that attempts to utilise all the new features of TRS19 -- TRS19 track, all PBR textures and TurfFX.

Now I appreciate that doing this for a three baseboad layout is a little easier than for, what, a 200+ board main line route. But if you want to take full advantage ... .

Phil

(The first image is from "The Phootnote & Fourword" (Download Station), the second from "The Mann, Phrom, Laramee" (also Download Station), the third from "The Innter Kohn Necktion" (which I fed into the DLC approval steam over a month ago but is still awaiting acceptance.))

pcas1986
October 18th, 2018, 12:15 AM
Phil,
I really like the third shot in your post. Absolutely outstanding and probably the best Trainz shot I've ever seen.

If that doesn't satisfy the naysayers then nothing will.

JCitron
October 18th, 2018, 12:33 AM
Phil,
I really like the third shot in your post. Absolutely outstanding and probably the best Trainz shot I've ever seen.

If that doesn't satisfy the naysayers then nothing will.

I would like the PBR textures even more if they didn't have that cloudy gel on top of them as seen in the first shot. Instead of the rock and ballast textures being vivid like the rest of the scene, they have a blur to them as if they're under water. If that gel could be 100% invisible, that would go a long way to being usable, but that gel looks weird when seen up close.

pcas1986
October 18th, 2018, 01:29 AM
I would like the PBR textures even more if they didn't have that cloudy gel on top of them as seen in the first shot. Instead of the rock and ballast textures being vivid like the rest of the scene, they have a blur to them as if they're under water. If that gel could be 100% invisible, that would go a long way to being usable, but that gel looks weird when seen up close.

I hadn't noticed but I went looking in the Content Samples route. There was one section of rocks that looked as if it had some alien goo on it. As you rotate you can see some pebbles "floating" on top of the goo. Is that what you mean?

philskene
October 18th, 2018, 01:43 AM
John --

You do get some peculiar "motion" effects with the PBR textures. Download "The Phootnote & Fourword" (all built-in and Download Station dependencies -- and not too many from the DLS either) and you will see what I mean at the ridge tops and edges. But I think this "feature" is something we may have to live with if we want the 3D effects. And, damn it, I do want the 3D effects!~!

Paul --

Thanks. It's actually a screen grab from this video (full screen / 1080p):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ItR4UNu8iA&t

More from the above:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/jk33w04jfaqf02v/TRS19%20InnterKohnNecktion_09.jpg?dl=0

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/2zgggcy1p415kgo/TRS19%20InnterKohnNecktion_11.jpg?dl=0

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/nvdho47bgiewvss/TRS19%20InnterKohnNecktion_12.jpg?dl=0

And one from the lower level of this layout:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/k5rbe1n7o3nr8o1/TRS19%20InnterKohnNecktion_08.jpg?dl=0

As I said above, I've put this layout into the DLC stream for approval but it is taking ages. I know N3V must be frantically busy sorting out TRS19 but I would have thought they would also have realised there may be folks out there who are tired with just Kickstarter and might be prepared to purchase a proper TRS19 route. Oh well, ... .

Phil

JCitron
October 18th, 2018, 11:10 AM
I hadn't noticed but I went looking in the Content Samples route. There was one section of rocks that looked as if it had some alien goo on it. As you rotate you can see some pebbles "floating" on top of the goo. Is that what you mean?

Paul,

Yes that's part of what I mean. I've seen that with track ballast. The textures and surface have a goo all over them and the pebbles need to be on the ground - we don't live in an alien world, though it seems that way sometimes, where there's less gravity, and the surface shouldn't be covered with jelly.

If the clear gel can become 100% transparent that would be a plus, and they have to work on the floating rocks.

Here's some pics I posted awhile ago and got zero response from the dev team when I reported it there and in the forums. The second image shows this pretty well. It's as if we're looking into a tidal pool or pond. I should have placed lily pads and duckweed to fill out the effect.

1593 1594 1595

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 18th, 2018, 11:21 AM
I have also seen the wet jelly like appearance on procedural track textures.

In regards the PBR textures, i bulk converted some old grass to PBR 4 seasonal.

Not realising that some of the original texture was also used track side.

But this time the PBR texture has not deformed the terrain over the track bed.

So i am a happy bunny. :D

Mike.

JCitron
October 18th, 2018, 12:04 PM
I have also seen the wet jelly like appearance on procedural track textures.

In regards the PBR textures, i bulk converted some old grass to PBR 4 seasonal.

Not realising that some of the original texture was also used track side.

But this time the PBR texture has not deformed the terrain over the track bed.

So i am a happy bunny. :D

Mike.

Your'e lucky this time. It depends upon original terrain height. I have found too that the surface sometimes sinks below the track and when you attempt to adjust the height you never can just like the olden times with TRS2004. :)

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 18th, 2018, 01:58 PM
I was due a bit of luck John, in the overall scheme of things universally. :hehe: ;)

Mike.

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 18th, 2018, 02:03 PM
Sorry Phil, meant to say although you know i am not into model layouts.

Your new creation looks stunning buddy. :cool: :cool:

Mike.

philskene
October 18th, 2018, 06:48 PM
Hi Mike --

I suspect I know you from somewhere else as a disliker (is that a word?) of model railroads. I didn't realise you also hang out here too.

Gotta move with the times mate. Trainz started off as a model railroad simulator. Those of us who work in this space (don't you hate that expression?) are just reverting to its roots.

Phil

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 19th, 2018, 09:03 AM
Yup disliker will do Phil, but not hater. :hehe: :hehe:

As i said to you a while back on the other side of the world.

If you created a UK model layout, i would more than likely download it.

Oh yes Phil back to the roots, when the loco and rolling stock wheels didn't even rotate in the CE release. :D

I only post in the TRS19 & TRS19 Beta forum, no permissions else where.

Mike.

philskene
October 19th, 2018, 05:57 PM
Mike --

To see what can be achieved with the new 3D textures, new track and TurfFX, I'd still suggest you download, for example, "The Phootnote & Fourword". It only requires about 80 dependencies from the Download Station so you should be up and running in less than a few minutes. Also, some other layouts I've tried take an eternity to cache before loading in Surveyor or Driver; this one takes seconds.

When you're finished, go back into Manage Content, sort by installation time and remove the dependencies you downloaded. That way you are back to where you began. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Phil

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 20th, 2018, 04:15 AM
Will do Phil, i am forever installing and deleting stuff anyway buddy.

All part of beta testing. ;)

Mike.

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 20th, 2018, 05:10 AM
https://i.postimg.cc/PqdkyLQ3/2018-10-20-105942.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/rw1k5GxR/2018-10-20-110200.jpg

Very well crafted creation, Phil. :cool:

Mike.

philskene
October 20th, 2018, 07:23 AM
Wow Mike -- from a "disliker" of model railroads, that really is a complement. In a funny way, that 08 and the two axle freight cars (sorry, wagons) look very appropriate. I might have to see if I can get the Black 5 and 8F working in TRS19.

lovetrainzloathen3v
October 20th, 2018, 08:30 AM
Not at all Phil, you are very good at creating what you enjoy.

It would be really unfair of me to denigrate your work. Just because i do not enjoy running model railway type routes\layouts.

Obviously a labour of love buddy and it has 104 downloads so far. So you are definitely creating something, that is popular. :cool: :cool:

Mike.

1611mac
November 17th, 2018, 09:42 AM
Phil... just downloaded "The Phootnote & Fourword" - stunning work. I'm a newbie to Trainz and not sure where I'm headed... (prototypical, model RR, designing my own route, or what?) but I can say that your "Phootnote" is impressive! I see advantages of model layouts with Mac systems. Smaller number of boards provide much faster mapping, mountains are not missed with draw distance set low, etc.... Thanks!